Councillor says Travellers should be an 'isolated community'

Cavehill Red

MadsL wrote: »

OK, I can see how you hold that position. Tell me would you say that traveller incarceration is similar or higher than the rates for other longterm unemployed persons?

My understanding is that it is higher. It's hard to derive definitive conclusions from the nature of the statistics kept by the prison service however.

MadsL wrote: »

And I keep asking you for any evidence of your assertion that travellers are underpoliced. So far you have produced nothing.

Again, you seem to ignore information presented to you. Failure to ensure their children adhere to mandatory schooling is one area in which traveller parents are not punished, already mentioned. The site at Dunsink has been described as a 'no-go area' for Gardai since 2004 - http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/fear-and-loathing-in-finglas-486757.html. I know Gardai will not enter the site without significant armed back up and as a result it is effectively beyond the law.

MadsL

Cavehill Red wrote: »

My understanding is that it is higher. It's hard to derive definitive conclusions from the nature of the statistics kept by the prison service however.

Then we cannot draw conclusions, it would appear however that you wish to draw conclusions based on what, exactly?

Again, you seem to ignore information presented to you. Failure to ensure their children adhere to mandatory schooling is one area in which traveller parents are not punished, already mentioned. The site at Dunsink has been described as a 'no-go area' for Gardai since 2004 - http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/fear-and-loathing-in-finglas-486757.html. I know Gardai will not enter the site without significant armed back up and as a result it is effectively beyond the law.

And what is your recommendation to counter such as situation?

K-9

greenpilot wrote: »

Anecdote? It's in the Mayo Advertiser. Get out of your bubble. Why do you think there has been a huge increase in firearms licences in rural Ireland? It ain't for bunny hunting you know. They robbed me once. Won't happen a second time.

Ah the Mayo Advertiser, that doyen of journalism.

Posters here say travellers are responsible for a lot of crime but that is reflected in the law and prison statistics.

Wider Road

MadsL wrote: »

OK, I can see how you hold that position. Tell me would you say that traveller incarceration is similar or higher than the rates for other longterm unemployed persons?



And I keep asking you for any evidence of your assertion that travellers are underpoliced. So far you have produced nothing.

If travellers not underpoliced (as I believe is your view), why have you not seen any action on the Travelling Community breaking the law & travelling on the Wrong side of the road as shown on YouTube?

Cavehill Red

MadsL wrote: »

Then we cannot draw conclusions, it would appear however that you wish to draw conclusions based on what, exactly?

The attempt to compare traveller incarceration rates to that of long-term unemployed is yours not mine. I'm merely telling you such a comparison isn't possible given the statistics available (due to the large overlap between the two cohorts being indistinguished.)

MadsL wrote: »

And what is your recommendation to counter such as situation?

For the fifth time now, proper enforcement of policing. What's yours?

MadsL

Cavehill Red wrote: »

For the fifth time now, proper enforcement of policing. What's yours?

So heavily armed police should surround Dunsink Lane, with megaphones demanding to escort children to school.

You feel this will help integration somehow?

RGDATA!

Dotsey wrote: »

Most people have opinions on travellers and foreigners but won't/can't speak their mind as they are quickly branded racists for saying what they are thinking so perhaps we need people to speak their minds on these issues so we can challenge them honestly.

Agree with your post, unfortunately I don't think there's much problem in Ireland with people "speaking their mind" on travellers whether on here or in private conversation. If anything, when talking about travellers, I think there's more of a dynamic of you let people who mouth off about them away with a lot of it, because anyone who defends them is sneered at as a "do-gooder", it's more of a taboo to say - "hang on a minute guys"

I deal with travellers daily, moreso I would guess than 95% of those on here. I grew up with all the same prejudices against them (although from a family that would have taught 'be christian - but wary'). I always feel compelled to post in threads like this that they're getting hard done by, mostly by people who don't have much real experience with them. I have found most of the travellers I have dealt with to be good people, and especially so once they see you don't have a prejudice against them.

And I see a lot of change in my lifetime - I grew up when there were large families living in grotty lightweight caravans, no running water and ****ting in fields. Hence as a kid I used to wonder why they seemed dirty and smelly.
No travellers round my way live anything like this now, nor are I"ve any "roaming the roads" as suggested by earlier posters.

I also see a big increase in literacy and computer literacy in the younger generation.

I was a only a kid in the 80's but remember admiring the Dunnes Stores workers striking, refusing to handle South African oranges because of apartheid. Which is what the Donegal councillor is proposing.

Dr Turk Turkelton

SoulandForm wrote: »

I have a soft spot for travelers because they used to have a place in society as actual tinkers. Now thats gone.

They dont seem to be completely lumpenized- many seem to have made other niches for themselves.

Yes when they were tinkers back in the 50/60s they did have a place in society.They made things and got a few quid for them I'm the areas where they stayed for a while

Their niches nowadays are house burglaring and general lawlessness.No point in trying to integrate them into society as they have no interest in living an honest life paying taxes etc.

The Donegal councillor is right.And before the dogooders come along and say its only a minority it isn't.Its 100% of the adult population.Some might only break "small laws" like no tax or insurance on their cars they are still lawbreakers.

Cavehill Red

MadsL wrote: »

So heavily armed police should surround Dunsink Lane, with megaphones demanding to escort children to school.

You feel this will help integration somehow?

I really find it difficult to equate your apparent intelligence with your repeated incapacity to understand the phrase 'proper enforcement of the law'. There should be no no-go areas for An Garda Siochana anywhere in Ireland, be it Dunsink or anywhere else. Similarly, there is a mechanism for punishing parents if they fail repeatedly to see that their children are enrolled and attend school. These are routinely not enforced in the case of traveller children. There is a parallel education system in place created to accommodate the mobility of travellers and yet still the children do not attend school. By contrast, when my child returned to my custody in Ireland, I was informed by the Dept of Education that it was my responsibility to find a school to enrol in, and failure to do so would result in my prosecution.
This disconnect is what I'm talking about. Failing to enforce the law consistently on travellers does not benefit anyone.

MadsL

Cuchulainn1. wrote: »

Its 100% of the adult population.

Right. Every adult traveller is a criminal.

I knows it in me bones.

SoulandForm

Cuchulainn1. wrote: »

Yes when they were tinkers back in the 50/60s they did have a place in society.They made things and got a few quid for them I'm the areas where they stayed for a while

Their niches nowadays are house burglaring and general lawlessness.No point in trying to integrate them into society as they have no interest in living an honest life paying taxes etc.

The Donegal councillor is right.And before the dog posers come along and say its only a minority it isn't.Its 100% of the adult population.Some might only break "small laws" like no tax or insurance on their cars they are still lawbreakers.

Ive already said that I believe that house robbing is completely unjustified in Ireland- I think it is justified if you have to feed yourself or family but there are plenty of places to get free food in Ireland plus there are things like the dole. However a lot of travelers do seem to live within the law. We have problems with lawlessness outside of the traveler community. It seems a bit unfair to pick on them.

SoulandForm

You have non-traveler dumps like Neilstown and Ronanstown in Dublin where the Police are shy about entering. People in Finglas do not have proper protection from the Police which is a disgrace- but its not only travelers by a long shot that are preying on them.

Cavehill Red wrote: »

I really find it difficult to equate your apparent intelligence with your repeated incapacity to understand the phrase 'proper enforcement of the law'. There should be no no-go areas for An Garda Siochana anywhere in Ireland, be it Dunsink or anywhere else.

AlekSmart

MadsL wrote: »

Exactly, society has removed its need for their previous services and then gets annoyed when they find alternative ways of making money.

Ah here now,hold on a cotton-pickin minute....:eek:

SOCIETY has REMOVED......?

Society has also removed the "need" for a hole to be drilled in my head to treat a headache....or for me to be bled to allow my bad moods to be drained....However I do not bemoan my local doctor having to adapt his methods as a consequence.

Normal human advancement rendered the "Tinkering Trades" redundant,however we largely continue to patronize the Irish Traveller's with our sepia hue'd backwards glances.

Travellers,Tinkers,Knackers,Gypsies...whatever,were faced with the exact same challenges that faced all of our forebears,and many of their ilk met those challenges and left their ancient hardship riddled existance behind.

Yes,one can call it assimilization,but I see it as being able to rationally choose sustainable survival rather than hardship,sickness and eventually extinction.

To suggest that the meding of tin-pots was deliberately sidelined simply to marginalize Travellers is verging on the unstable.

What many fail to realize or accept is that a significant number of Travellers have moved on in the criminal world also,forging links to a Worldwide network of similar nomadic familial groupings which exist everywhere.

Not all Traveller related crime centres on Housebreaking or beating up isolated elderly folk....the younger,technically savvy Traveller is more than capable of identifying and criminally manipulating as many different markets as necessary to make their profits.

However,to take MadsL`s reasoning to it's (il)logical conclusion,we (the rest of the world) should be beating our breasts in self punishment for forcing this criminality on the poor Traveller....Fair enough,but I'll delegate my share of the guilt and shame to MadsL who can feel free to use it as he/she wishes.

MadsL

Alex, If you think that Irish society has not progressively marginalised the Traveller community over the past 60 years, I don't know what to tell you.

Halting sites shut down, local hostility, blamed for every crime (100% criminals I tells ya) kids separated out from mainstream education, moved on, denied the right to protest.

You think none of this has an impact; that is bordering on the insane in my book.

AlekSmart

SoulandForm wrote: »

Ive already said that I believe that house robbing is completely unjustified in Ireland- I think it is justified if you have to feed yourself or family but there are plenty of places to get free food in Ireland plus there are things like the dole.

This could be an interesting sub-development to this thread...

Could we perhaps tease out the level of "Justification" for theft which would be accceptable ?

If,for example,an individual begets a dozen children without considering the physical ramifications on the woman,then ignores the financial realities of providing for the resultant large family,then I as somebody who did not follow this logic,should consider myself and my property fair-game in order to provide for this family too ???

I'm not quite certain where this logic actually leads,but I'm genuinely interested at the concepts being advanced nonetheless ....:eek:

SoulandForm

AlekSmart wrote: »

This could be an interesting sub-development to this thread...

Could we perhaps tease out the level of "Justification" for theft which would be accceptable ?

If,for example,an individual begets a dozen children without considering the physical ramifications on the woman,then ignores the financial realities of providing for the resultant large family,then I as somebody who did not follow this logic,should consider myself and my property fair-game in order to provide for this family too ???

I'm not quite certain where this logic actually leads,but I'm genuinely interested at the concepts being advanced nonetheless ....:eek:

Read Thomas Aquinas on the subject.

Theft is in no way justified in current Ireland so its no real issue.

Cavehill Red

MadsL wrote: »

Alex, If you think that Irish society has not progressively marginalised the Traveller community over the past 60 years, I don't know what to tell you.

Halting sites shut down, local hostility, blamed for every crime (100% criminals I tells ya) kids separated out from mainstream education, moved on, denied the right to protest.

You think none of this has an impact; that is bordering on the insane in my book.

The traveller community marginalises itself, with its actions, be they considered cultural distinction or simply a setting-apart on their account.
They do this by their insistence on travelling rather than settling in communities where they would be required to live and work and hence gain the trust and respect of their neighbours. They do this by refusing their children the opportunity of education, despite every leeway given by the state to facilitate them. They do this by criminality which alienates the preyed-upon populace.
I understand you lament the continuation of tinker lifestyles, but am saddened to see you attempt to obfuscate and even legitimise their replacing that with criminality to a very large extent. I believe you do not comprehend that many people in society, such as the councillor mentioned in the OP, have become fed up, especially in these difficult times, at providing endless contributions to support what has become an unsustainable way of life. Most taxpayers, given the opportunity, would I believe be more inclined to reinstate the carers' respite or rescind the student fee hike than they would provide further halting sites or parallel education services which go un(der)used. People are especially aggrieved to be the victim of criminality, which fact and statistic reveals to be disproportionately traveller in origin, from theft to fighting, from a community which they support with their taxes.
These points have been repeatedly put to you by many people in this thread. No one bar that councillor is endorsing the apartheid policies of the councillor. Rather, people have expressed exasperation that travellers will not take responsibility for themselves, and get educated, renounce criminality and wean themselves off welfare.
Your response has consistently been to ignore answers, offer questions in response to questions, or ignore questions presented to you.
In short, you are no good defender of the travelling community, because your posts here appear to be evasive and disingenuous in the extreme.

Cavehill Red

SoulandForm wrote: »

You have non-traveler dumps like Neilstown and Ronanstown in Dublin where the Police are shy about entering. People in Finglas do not have proper protection from the Police which is a disgrace- but its not only travelers by a long shot that are preying on them.

No, it is not, I concur. But it is disproportionately travellers who are preying on them.
Also if AGS had not permitted Dunsink and other halting sites to become a no-go area, they would not have had a precedent for permitting other non-traveller areas from going likewise feral.
This all needs to be reversed and proper policing enforced.

MadsL

Cavehill Red wrote: »

This all needs to be reversed and proper policing enforced.

You keep using that word - what does it mean in practicality? Armed police enforcing tax discs and truancy?

SoulandForm

MadsL wrote: »

You keep using that word - what does it mean in practicality? Armed police enforcing tax discs and truancy?

There is a wider issue here.

People have a right to live without fear.

A friend of mine's parents live in Finglas- they are retired and have lived hard working blue collar jobs all their working lives. They are in constant fear. There is a non-traveler family down the road from them which is completely out of control. This wouldnt be allowed to happen in a middle class neighbour.

Policing in this country is a disgrace.

AlekSmart

MadsL wrote: »

Alex, If you think that Irish society has not progressively marginalised the Traveller community over the past 60 years, I don't know what to tell you.

Halting sites shut down, local hostility, blamed for every crime (100% criminals I tells ya) kids separated out from mainstream education, moved on, denied the right to protest.

You think none of this has an impact; that is bordering on the insane in my book.

No I most certainly do not accept this allegation of progressive marginalization,as if every other element of Irish Society held a Wannsee strategy-like meeting to strike out Travellers.

Irish Society did not,of itself,become anti-Traveller and decide,as one entity,to "progressively marginalize" Travellers.

Of course all the elements you mention have an impact,but not all of that impact comes from without the Traveller society.

The availability of modern housing in my own area over the past 25 years has been 2nd to none.

Tallaght,for example,has with many abandoned small housing communities all built to a very high standard and,in some cases,then destroyed many times over,until funds ran out for further rebuilding.

Now,if the houses still remain standing,steel plates cover all the doors and windows,as the houses fall ever deeper into disrepair....why ?.....In some cases intercine disputes between families or branches thereof,or in other cases demands for specific design features only made after allocation of the houses,then used to frustrate the taking-in-charge process.

Those Travellers who presented with specific strongly held resistance to living in a house (and there are still many) were facilitated with the "Serviced Halting Site",a truly (and almost certainly uniquely Irish) elastic term which saw Local Authorities throughout the land having to provide ever more "additions" in order to satisfy the ever widening range of Traveller needs before any families would move in.

That many Traveller Residential Developments shut-down is pure true,but in many cases the responsibility rested totally on the families concerned rather than those of us occupying the rest of the world around them.

You are quite correct to use the term insane,as I too cannot find a closer more accurate description for the actions of a significant group of the Traveller culture,much,it has to be said,of a totally self-destructive nature.

The insinuation that the "settled" community,should in any way feel,or be held totally responsible for,the state of Irish Traveller culture is well wide of the reality mark.

There are some Travellers who have broken free of the bonds of a largely medieval way of life,and who,in the manner of all humanity which wants to survive and prosper,has adapted to the real-world,but they are often denigrated within their own culture for that,in a rather unique extension of traditional Irish begrudgery itself.

To use "Local Hostility" is a particularly easy weapon of accusation,however it fails to take account of the fact that this "hostility" is not unidirectional,with just as much able to come from the "Other" side as well.

From my perspective,the Traveller "culture" itself holds the key to it's own survival.

No amount of kindly condesending outside aid or support can achieve the success that Traveller Culture can itself achieve,but it has to first be able to focus on,and address, its own realities.

Cavehill Red

MadsL wrote: »

You keep using that word - what does it mean in practicality? Armed police enforcing tax discs and truancy?

I have clarified this in simple English six times for you. I no longer find it plausible that you are incapable of parsing the meaning of the phrase 'proper enforcement of policing'. Rather, on each occasion, your response has been to deliberately misinterpret the phrase with nonsensical exaggerations about armed police and children.
I would take it kindly if you would now desist from attempting to misrepresent what I write in this manner, as it is disingenuous and dishonest.
You know right well what proper enforcement of policing means, and you know right well that An Garda Siochana are not habitually armed, and you know right well that the police are not utilised in relation to truancy matters.

MadsL

And your *ahem* "solution" would be?

MadsL

Cavehill Red wrote: »

I have clarified this in simple English six times for you. I no longer find it plausible that you are incapable of parsing the meaning of the phrase 'proper enforcement of policing'. Rather, on each occasion, your response has been to deliberately misinterpret the phrase with nonsensical exaggerations about armed police and children.
I would take it kindly if you would now desist from attempting to misrepresent what I write in this manner, as it is disingenuous and dishonest.
You know right well what proper enforcement of policing means, and you know right well that An Garda Siochana are not habitually armed, and you know right well that the police are not utilised in relation to truancy matters.

You imply that travellers are somehow policed differently. Could you explain how and what measures you would take to correct your perceived inbalance?

At the moment all you are saying is "it should be better" without any indication of how you propose to direct AGS to resolve it.

AlekSmart

SoulandForm wrote: »

Read Thomas Aquinas on the subject.

Theft is in no way justified in current Ireland so its no real issue.

It's a very real "issue" I think.

I'll pass on the Thomas Aquinas however, if you don't mind ?

I am,however,quite taken by a certain Jesuitical use of words here...."In no way justified in current Ireland"

I may be totally off beam here,but I do not accept the use of the term "current" in relation to justifying criminal acts against other individuals....and if that flies in the face of Thomas Aquinas,then so be it I'm afraid.

Cavehill Red

MadsL wrote: »

You imply that travellers are somehow policed differently. Could you explain how and what measures you would take to correct your perceived inbalance?

At the moment all you are saying is "it should be better" without any indication of how you propose to direct AGS to resolve it.

PROPER. ENFORCEMENT. OF. POLICING.
We're going in circles here, because you're insistent on deliberately dragging the topic away from the substantive issue of what caused the councillor to express the opinions he did.
I say we need proper enforcement of policing. You ignore it, or misrepresent that as sending in SWAT teams after truants. I have patiently and fully stated my opinion to you on this matter on six occasions now. No one else on the thread appears to have any difficulty comprehending what I'm writing, bar you. Because you don't want to acknowledge the truth of what I'm saying, and you are incapable of providing any answers of your own, as evidenced by the many questions you yourself have failed to answer on this thread.

the_syco

RayM wrote: »

I used to live near a halting site and an unofficial encampment, and never had any problems with travellers. Of course, I'm not suggesting that - based solely on my own experiences - all travellers are decent, law-abiding people. Only a complete idiot would make such a generalisation.

I know of one law abiding traveller family. Last saw them over 20 years ago.

Every traveller family that has come to Leixlip since has encamped illegally, made a mess, trespassed, made a mess, removed barriers, illegal encampent, made a mess, destroyed local historical site, cost thousands to fix when they moved out, etc.

I disagree they should be an isolated community. I think they should be given a NAMA estate in the middle of nowhere, their caravans crushed, and their kids forced to go to school.

SoulandForm

If a human being is starving than he is justified in keeping himself alive.

AlekSmart wrote: »

It's a very real "issue" I think.

I'll pass on the Thomas Aquinas however, if you don't mind ?

I am,however,quite taken by a certain Jesuitical use of words here...."In no way justified in current Ireland"

I may be totally off beam here,but I do not accept the use of the term "current" in relation to justifying criminal acts against other individuals....and if that flies in the face of Thomas Aquinas,then so be it I'm afraid.

Cavehill Red

SoulandForm wrote: »

If a human being is starving than he is justified in keeping himself alive.

Plenty of evidence of childhood malnutrition among travellers, but no starvation. It's not for want of food that they suffer, because they receive the same benefits as others. It's because in many cases they are fed very badly on fast food. Look at how the poor girl in Pavee Lackeen eats, for example. Nothing but chips.

SoulandForm

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Plenty of evidence of childhood malnutrition among travellers, but no starvation. It's not for want of food that they suffer, because they receive the same benefits as others. It's because in many cases they are fed very badly on fast food. Look at how the poor girl in Pavee Lackeen eats, for example. Nothing but chips.

I have said clearly that theft isnt justified in modern Ireland.

A lot of people in both Northern Ireland and the ROI know nothing of nutrition and have terrible diets. Its not something confined to Travelers.

shane9689

Look everyone, the answer is simple!
dont be prejudiced...but dont be lenient either. paint em with the same brush we paint everyone else with. Let them do whatever they like but if they break the law give them the same sentence you'd give anyone else simple. that would sort every issue out rather than taking one side or the other

SoulandForm

AlekSmart wrote: »

It's a very real "issue" I think..

White collar criminals are allowed to run wild.

But we have "Tribunals" costing tax payers millions for them.

Cavehill Red

SoulandForm wrote: »

I have said clearly that theft isnt justified in modern Ireland.

A lot of people in both Northern Ireland and the ROI know nothing of nutrition and have terrible diets. Its not something confined to Travelers.

That's true, but the traveller health survey does indicate that there is a particular concern in this area, in some cases bordering on neglect, among the traveller community.
Also, while your point about white collar criminality is well made, as was your point about other non-traveller no-go areas, this line of argument is bordering on whataboutery. It is entirely possible to be aggrieved about all of these matters, but this particular topic relates to travellers and why the Donegal councillor became so exasperated he expressed an - in my opinion unhelpful - opinion that they should be isolated from the rest of society.

SoulandForm

It wasnt bordering on whataboutry it was whataboutry!

That said I would be more likely to go easier on Traveler scummer than I would on a non-Traveler scummer because I empathize with them having their way of life destroyed by the march technology.

As I said though there is a wider issue of the lack of proper protection by the police of a lot of people.

Cavehill Red wrote: »

That's true, but the traveller health survey does indicate that there is a particular concern in this area, in some cases bordering on neglect, among the traveller community.
Also, while your point about white collar criminality is well made, as was your point about other non-traveller no-go areas, this line of argument is bordering on whataboutery. It is entirely possible to be aggrieved about all of these matters, but this particular topic relates to travellers and why the Donegal councillor became so exasperated he expressed an - in my opinion unhelpful - opinion that they should be isolated from the rest of society.

Cavehill Red

Time, progress and technology march on, though. Plenty of trades and professions go the way of the flintmaker in the age of iron these days. One either upskills or falls by the wayside. There's no excuse for an entire community to decide to live in defiance of progress in that manner and insist that the rest of society pick up the pieces for them.
My child attended a career seminar in which they were told recently that they were likely to have up to ten different jobs in their career, at least four of which don't currently exist, such is the pace of change.
There is, I suppose, always the possibility of pursuing the councillor's dream and creating some sort of reserve or theme park somewhere that travellers could live as if it were the 1930s forever, just as tracts of the Amazon are closed off to permit stone age tribes to live their way of life undisturbed.
But I feel that most travellers would rather live in the 21st century with the benefits of modern technology. However, accessing the benefits of modernity also means embracing how it functions and accepting that it is different to the past.
That type of response does not encompass rife criminality, child neglect or lack of education. Quite the contrary. The travelling community have become expert in protesting and complaining while being heavily subsidised by society, either legitimately via taxes or illegitimately. They would I think do better to think about how they could better improve their own lot than continue demanding hand-outs from others to alleviate the existence they choose to pursue.

SoulandForm

Honestly I dont have any answers. I see where both you and Madsl are coming from.

Cavehill Red

SoulandForm wrote: »

Honestly I dont have any answers. I see where both you and Madsl are coming from.

I've no idea where Madsl is coming from. He's failed utterly to state a position on what should be done or answer any questions put to him.
I think the message needs to go out to the Travelling community that they are responsible for their own lives and the lives of their children. Every attempt to accommodate their cultural separateness has been made, and is still made even in the context of savage cuts to services in the rest of society. Yet criminality, poor education and health remain rife. It's time the kid gloves came off and they were treated exactly the same as everyone else. To that end, I'd like to see proper enforcement of policing, and I'd like to see some impetus from within the Travelling community to upskill and upgrade how they live and raise their children.

SoulandForm

Cavehill Ive been told that in the past people used to see a lot of travelers begging around Dublin, now you dont seem to see them doing at all. That seems to be a major change.

Cavehill Red

SoulandForm wrote: »

Cavehill Ive been told that in the past people used to see a lot of travelers begging around Dublin, now you dont seem to see them doing at all. That seems to be a major change.

I don't know that it's possible to tell Travellers apart visually in that way. I've been in Dublin since the 80s. There were beggars when I arrived and there are beggars now. The only difference I note is that many of them now are foreign, predominantly Roma, who share many of the same problems as Travellers due to sharing many of the same lifestyle choices/culture.
It's possible that fewer Travellers beg now. But I don't know if we can know that's true, because it's not a criminal offence to beg anymore, so there are no statistics held. I think, however, I'd prefer them to be begging than stealing all the same.

MadsL

Cavehill Red wrote: »

I've no idea where Madsl is coming from. He's failed utterly to state a position on what should be done or answer any questions put to him.

What questions have I not answered? Are there as many as the ones you have so far refused to answer?

You keep saying "proper enforcement" without defining proper or enforcement. Is it the same level of policing as applies to the rest of the population? In which case show me the evidence that they are currently underpoliced or is it some kind of zealous zero-tolerance policing applied directly to a particular community?

You cannot say you avocate doing something "properly" without describing where it is currently failing, and providing the evidence to show the failure. Until then, a reasonable doubt taints your argument.

As to stating a position, why should I have to? If you wish to support this councillor in some measure, I think it entirely fair that you explain why, and expect some form of challenging of your assumptions. That after all is the topic at hand in this thread, not my personal position.

Death and Taxes

greenpilot wrote: »

True, if you look at the Court Reports in all the regional newspapers, over 80% of all crime is committed by Travelers. That's not anecdotal, its there in black and white. You don't see Pavee point printing those in their so-called media watch on their website.

Thats absolute rubbish and you have no evidence to back that up, because there is no evidence to back that up.

Death and Taxes

Wider Road wrote: »

If travellers not underpoliced (as I believe is your view), why have you not seen any action on the Travelling Community breaking the law & travelling on the Wrong side of the road as shown on YouTube?

Apart from the fact that they were in court a couple of weeks ago?

the_syco

WileyCoyote (Accelleratii Incredibus!) wrote: »

Apart from the fact that they were in court a couple of weeks ago?

Do you have a link to that? I'm quite surprised that they were able to bring anyone to court over it.

jjpep

So I've just read through the tread. If I may point out:

the questions madsl is asking are interesting. However you are in danger of doing yourself a disservice by not stating what it is that you are for. Questions are great but it would be very interesting (for me at least) if you could put forward your position on the travelling community.

Cavehill red, it would be interesting if you could tease out your idea of proper enforcement of the law for that community. I feel that i know what you are talking about but at the same time one doesn't like to make assumptions.

Death and Taxes

the_syco wrote: »

Do you have a link to that? I'm quite surprised that they were able to bring anyone to court over it.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/1027/1224325795082.html

crockholm

MadsL wrote: »

Exactly, society has removed its need for their previous services and then gets annoyed when they find alternative ways of making money.

Yes, we should be thankful for travellers modus operandi, Im just glan they didnt turn out like the other extinct tradesmen that society removed, blacksmiths and farriers being notorious charlatans these days

Death and Taxes

And to think only a few short months ago we were celebrating John Joe Nevins achievments, my how the worm has turned.

Yes, many travellers create a nuisance, some are engaged in criminality (as are some settled folk), they have serious issues with regard to health and education (as do many settled folk in socio economic or educationally deprived areas), that does not mean that all travellers are gangsters, crooks, spongers etc, many within the traveller community strive to improve their own lives, their communities lives, and the society as a whole.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Irish_Travellers
The above list does not contain the name of Rosaleen Mc Donagh, the artist and disability rights campigner who contested the Seanad elections in 2007.

walshb

crockholm wrote: »

If I can park the merits of travellers for a while, whilst many disagree with his sentiments,at least it is something being said that goes against the uber-cautious politic-speak, waffling on yet saying nothing. Blunt,it may be, but jeez,at least you know where this fellow stands on the issue, and now it's up to the voters of donegal to yea or nay his political career.

Blunt is one thing, but inciting a dislike or hate or promoting division is another. I believe he did this, and I do not agree with it. Freedom of speech is great, but when it starts to divise and create hostility or promote an intolerance of a section of society it then becomes dangerous. I don't care that he has come out and said what HE thinks. What he thinks, and what he says is what concerns me.

The only solution for Travelers is an end to their abuse of children - making them fight, taking them out of school, marrying them off, "grabbing" etc etc which all lead into making violent criminal adults out of innocent children.

The traveler culture is one of mass child abuse, all in the name of retaining the manpower as a unit of familial support who will be unable to escape the life.

Madsl, you might think that travelers have a right to abuse their children in whatever way they see fit, and you are wrong. So wrong and, thankfully, in the minority.

Death and Taxes

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

The only solution for Travelers is an end to their abuse of children - making them fight, taking them out of school, marrying them off, "grabbing" etc etc which all lead into making violent criminal adults out of innocent children.

The traveler culture is one of mass child abuse, all in the name of retaining the manpower as a unit of familial support who will be unable to escape the life.

Madsl, you might think that travelers have a right to abuse their children in whatever way they see fit, and you are wrong. So wrong and, thankfully, in the minority.

That is a digusting and disgracful comment, not to mention totally inaccurate!