Councillor says Travellers should be an 'isolated community'

Madam_X

I'm not in agreement with what the councillor says, because it was inflammatory and hate-mongering, and unbecoming of a public representative.

I really think however that there are people afraid of admitting certain truths for fear of being seen as bigoted. But acknowledging realities is not the same as being a bigot. Being a bigot in relation to travellers would be to hate every one of them by virtue of being a traveller alone (which is definitely wrong) but to say there are a lot of problems within traveller society which result in very problematic behaviour - what's wrong with that?

Arranged marriage, keeping it in the family, those "grabbing" rituals, no contraception (is it right for a 30-year-old woman in 21st century Ireland to have 12 children and be living in poverty, as was the case I encountered once?), virtually no education, a disproportionate amount of violence - to animals as well as humans, various criminal behaviours, unsanitary conditions, high infant mortality rate, lowered life expectancy, bareknuckle boxing as part of their culture, extreme machismo - women as inferior... the list goes on. These are problematic elements of traveller culture, which, yes, are found in settled society, but not anywhere near the same proportion. There's no point denying it.
Does the above paragraph mean I hate all travellers? Absolutely not. I have met numerous travellers who were utterly wonderful people, and I feel for them that they are let down so badly by the stuff I listed, but as a culture/community/society (rather than at the individual level) there is too much negative, destructive, harmful stuff going on. And when people talk about discrimination - chicken or egg? The fear and mistrust of a group of them doesn't come from the fresh air.
I agree the employment thing is a moot point, because few are going to take a traveller on - not to be nasty, but out of fear. Maybe not even fear of the individual job applicant but of their family.

Those who make out that it's all a result of being downtrodden - it's a two-way street. Help has been offered, but too many travellers don't want to know, and want to continue embracing a life, elements of which cause misery for others. There's only so long abdication of personal responsibility is gonna be accepted.
The people who refuse to acknowledge these realities - I really don't think they'd feel the same if there was a halting site near their front door which was over-run with problems (I do acknowledge there are halting sites which are grand).

Lantus

What we are talking about is a culture where that way of life is 'normal' to them. They are not bad people, just brought up that way.

If we could then we should aim to communicate and work hard to educate all people in this country. The tags of traveller should be obsolete. There are only people problems.

And to think that somehow we are the golden aspirational bar of civilisation is a mistake. We watch men punch the heads of other men at boxing matches even if they do wear gloves, we lock people in jail becuase we seem unable to understand the cause, but relish in the effect (i.e. the punishment.) Our society has a poverty underclass and many of our schools and hospitals are very poor quality. Only a few decades ago we were virtually subservient to a religous masterclass. We teach our children what to think not how to think and encourage them to become a cog in the machine. Our young men are effectivley being trained to see women as sex objects through advertising and media as they grow up and our young women are reflecting that learned behaviour back.

Basically we have a lot to learn ourselves but isolating and condeming another group of people only shows our own ignorance and inability to understand human behaviour. Even the hostility and hatred towards certain social groups is a learned behaviour reflected through society and something you will hear from a young age and as you grow up. When you say those things yourself your really just reciting what others say in the same way you can use words and numbers becuase the mechanism has been drummed into you over many years.

borderlinemeath

CTYIgirl wrote: »

The racism in this thread makes it close to unreasonable.

Are there members of the travelling community who break the law? Yes, there is. There may be more per capita than others, but there are still people who don't break the law and actually abide by it instead. I grew up knowing a fair amount of traveller families, I speak highly of the majority of them. There's people there who have no problem opening a door, giving you a mug of tea and a friendly word. I went to school with a family of girls, all of them finished secondary, and I know one in college now.

There's bad apples in every community. There may be more there, but there's also some decent, salt of the earth people who are among the nicest I've ever met.

On the flip side of this, every encounter I have had with a traveller has been negative. I worked in retail for 18 years. In that time I encountered a variety of shoplifters, some opportunistic, some professional, a few drug addicts, but the only ones that went down the road of intimidation and violence were travellers.

I have been attacked by travellers for trying to eject them from a shop, literally punched in the face. In other separate incidents a traveller spat in my face, another attempted to bite me. I was almost run over for trying to recover stolen property from a van from another family. There is a bench warrant out for the one that attacked me within the shop in front of witnesses and on cctv but to date she has managed to evade prosecution by funnily enough, travelling. Google her name along with 'arrest' and there's two pages of her misdemeanors from various areas around the country. Add to this any children I have encountered have been indoctrined into a life of crime by their elders, they don't even stand a chance.

I'm sure there's decent travellers out there but my judgement is certainly clouded by my experiences. They do live by their own rules and play the victim when confronted.

My name is URL

borderlinemeath wrote: »

On the flip side of this, every encounter I have had with a traveller has been negative.

Many people would say they don't share your experiences, I've only ever experienced problems with one small group of travellers, and have lived near and encountered many traveller families through the years.

When you consistently experience problems with a particular group of people, the common denominator isn't always 'them'.

borderlinemeath

My name is URL wrote: »

Many people would say they don't share your experiences, I've only ever experienced problems with one small group of travellers, and have lived near and encountered many traveller families through the years.

When you consistently experience problems with a particular group of people, the common denominator isn't always 'them'.

The common denominator was that 'they' wanted to steal. And also become intimidating and violent when confronted and stopped.

Romas were another ethnic group that were prominent shoplifters, however when I have stopped and confronted them they tend to try and apologise, usually whilst holding up their skirts to try and show that they're not robbing. However they're usually trying to distract you while they drop what they've taken. I have never had a violent encounter with a Roma. Professional shoplifters are the same, the last thing they want is an assault charge along with the shoplifting charge, when apprehended they tend to try and run or just give up as they know the system and will be bailed within hours.

Dannyboy83

WileyCoyote (Accelleratii Incredibus!) wrote: »

It would take me less than 5 minutes to find dozens of links to murders,rapes,robberies, and other violent crimes that had nothing to do with travellers, so whats is your point?

The point is, there is a big difference which you are overlooking.

The Irish public are starting to genuinely fear the actions of the numerous traveller criminals, and the 'good' travellers are going to be taken down with them. How will people distinguish?
They can't - a point made by numerous people in this thread who cite discrimination.

I'm not going to argue ethics with anyone - I'm simply making the point that this is going to happen.

The Irish people are intimidated, the elderly in particular are terrorized.

The urban area where I live is having more regular patrols, but the reaction is going to come from rural/isolated areas.

People in rural areas have begun hiding weapons in their houses...
What do you believe prompted the following comments from Galway city councillor Padraig Conneely this week?

THE chairman of a joint policing committee has said he would have no hesitation in shooting an intruder if he found one in his home.

Galway city councillor Padraig Conneely said he believed the current spate of robberies would result in a death because people were being terrorised in their own homes. And he warned that in similar circumstances he would pull the trigger.

"I believe one body laid out on a slab after a robbery would put an end to robberies in the area pretty lively," he added.

..
..
..


After the meeting, Mr Conneely defended his comments, insisting that the recent spate of robberies had left people at their wits' end.

"People are totally traumatised. It's an awful sensation to find somebody in your house and they might not be responsible for what they do."

He said he believed such an incident was likely to occur if the current level of burglaries continues.

The meeting heard of a number of robberies over the past few weeks in the area. However, it is believed that some victims are failing to report the crimes believing there is little gardai can do.

There is a real discussion here and it is not being examined; This discussion so far has been fairly abstract and quite typical but the problem is - the issue has moved on.
It simply NOT the same abstract issue it was 5 years ago, hence the Gardaí launching Operation Fiacla and the seemingly erratic comments we are hearing from our public representatives (who are reflecting the views of their communities).


The 'good' travellers must be made to understand the necessity to purge their community of those who cause trouble, as settled people do.
i.e. assist the Gardaí and speak out against troublemakers.

woodoo

Marrying your cousin is unhealthy too. I remember reading a book by Richard Dawkins and he says any closer than a 2nd cousin can lead to health problems.

carpejugulum

Travellers is the side show.

The government spending ridiculous money on unreasonable welfare is the main problem.

AlekSmart

carpejugulum wrote: »

Travellers is the side show.

The government spending ridiculous money on unreasonable welfare is the main problem.

A valid point,which ties in nicely with the spending of €230,000 on a single property to house a family of 13.

The purchase price may well be the tip of the iceberg as we as yet are unaware of whatever work may be required to bring the property to the Travellers specific standards,a process familiar to many Irish Local Authorities down the years.

Also of interest is whether any realistic rent is to be levied or if a shared ownership agreement is to be used..?

There are so many issues lurking beneath the Traveller one,that one wonders if it is meant to be this way ?

AlekSmart

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

The point is, there is a big difference which you are overlooking.

There is a real discussion here and it is not being examined; This discussion so far has been fairly abstract and quite typical but the problem is - the issue has moved on.
It simply NOT the same abstract issue it was 5 years ago, hence the Gardaí launching Operation Fiacla and the seemingly erratic comments we are hearing from our public representatives (who are reflecting the views of their communities).

The 'good' travellers must be made to understand the necessity to purge their community of those who cause trouble, as settled people do.
i.e. assist the Gardaí and speak out against troublemakers.

The manner in which Garda intelligence gathering has improved is,perhaps correctly,understated.

What is apparent is that Gardai are far more successful now at tracking the significant number of actively criminal gangs,a process which is short-circuiting one of the main benefits of not having a fixed-abode...anonimity.

The move from abstract to more specific hard intelligence is,I fear,what gets under the skin of the apologists most,as it tends to reveal the more baser side of any societal group.

Scofflaw

Park Royal wrote: »

Just saw a traveller girl walking out of a Mayo town , with her hair up just

wearing a golden shiny bra , slacks of some kind , and a dark skin tan.

Temperature 3 Cecilius........

She looked like a girl from the Arabian nights ...

Why they put their health in peril is beyond me.....

( no blouse, jumper, just a golden bra and slacks ...strange?)

What in the name of all that's holy is this supposed to have to do with a political discussion?

moderately boggled,
Scofflaw

Galwayguy35

Lantus wrote: »

What we are talking about is a culture where that way of life is 'normal' to them. They are not bad people, just brought up that way.

If we could then we should aim to communicate and work hard to educate all people in this country. The tags of traveller should be obsolete. There are only people problems.

And to think that somehow we are the golden aspirational bar of civilisation is a mistake. We watch men punch the heads of other men at boxing matches even if they do wear gloves, we lock people in jail becuase we seem unable to understand the cause, but relish in the effect (i.e. the punishment.) Our society has a poverty underclass and many of our schools and hospitals are very poor quality. Only a few decades ago we were virtually subservient to a religous masterclass. We teach our children what to think not how to think and encourage them to become a cog in the machine. Our young men are effectivley being trained to see women as sex objects through advertising and media as they grow up and our young women are reflecting that learned behaviour back.

Basically we have a lot to learn ourselves but isolating and condeming another group of people only shows our own ignorance and inability to understand human behaviour. Even the hostility and hatred towards certain social groups is a learned behaviour reflected through society and something you will hear from a young age and as you grow up. When you say those things yourself your really just reciting what others say in the same way you can use words and numbers becuase the mechanism has been drummed into you over many years.

But do they not isolate themselves?

Where I live there is quite a large Traveller population and and there is no way any Traveller girl would date/marry a guy from the settled community.

There was one guy who was dating a Traveller girl around here but they had to do it in secret and when they decided to tell her old man about it he and her brothers said they would beat him up.

If I said I would not date a Traveller because of her backround I would be told that was a racist comment, when Travellers say they won't go out with settled people and as happened in the example I mentioned above is that not racism towards the settled community?

Henlars67

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

But do they not isolate themselves?

Where I live there is quite a large Traveller population and and there is no way any Traveller girl would date/marry a guy from the settled community.

There was one guy who was dating a Traveller girl around here but they had to do it in secret and when they decided to tell her old man about it he and her brothers said they would beat him up.

If I said I would not date a Traveller because of her backround I would be told that was a racist comment, when Travellers say they won't go out with settled people and as happened in the example I mentioned above is that not racism towards the settled community?

See according to the PC brigade racism only works one way.

Take Mohammad Ali for instance.

If he was white he would be branded a disgrace for his racist ideals, however because he is black he is seen as some sort of a hero.

Without doubt he is the world's most loved and excused racist.

Racism needs to be seen as racism whether it's perpetrated by black or white, traveller or settled etc.

Park Royal

Post deleted.

woodoo

AlekSmart wrote: »

A valid point,which ties in nicely with the spending of €230,000 on a single property to house a family of 13.?

I hope someone reading this thread keeps an eye on that property and sees if it ends up (1.) wreaked (2.) subject to anti social behaviour or (3.) is a success for the family and the neighbourhood.

MadsL

Henlars67 wrote: »

the PC brigade

Is that expression not yet infractible on Politics?


Soon, please.

bmaxi

MadsL wrote: »

Is that expression not yet infractible on Politics?


Soon, please.

So now it's not PC to refer to PC. God help us all :eek:

Death and Taxes

bmaxi wrote: »

So now it's not PC to refer to PC. God( He/she/it,or whatever you believe them to be , if you believe in deities) help us all :eek:

See, I fixed you post ...lol:D

Only kidding, but you get the point:)

murphaph

It should be noted that many "travellers" actually have houses and only travel around the circuit "on business", returning to their houses in winter.

MadsL

bmaxi wrote: »

So now it's not PC to refer to PC. God help us all :eek:

Send in a letter to the Daily Mail about it...

Red About Town

murphaph wrote: »

It should be noted that many "travellers" actually have houses and only travel around the circuit "on business", returning to their houses in winter.

Doesn't make any difference. They are still members of the Travelling community.

Lantus

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

But do they not isolate themselves?

Where I live there is quite a large Traveller population and and there is no way any Traveller girl would date/marry a guy from the settled community.

There was one guy who was dating a Traveller girl around here but they had to do it in secret and when they decided to tell her old man about it he and her brothers said they would beat him up.

If I said I would not date a Traveller because of her backround I would be told that was a racist comment, when Travellers say they won't go out with settled people and as happened in the example I mentioned above is that not racism towards the settled community?

There are cultural barriers and learned behaviour on both sides that contribute to this situation. It wasn't so long ago that if a black women and a white man were to have a relationship it would of been considered socially inapropriate. Today we might find it odd that people could think that way about it but in the future conversations like these will be considered equally bizzare by a generation that will grow up with much more available knowledge and less likley to believe the myth and opinion of others without sound fact and basis.

There are many different cultures all over the world and they exist in many different ways. To them THEIR way of life is normal to them just as ours is to us.

Oneiric 3

Henlars67 wrote: »

Racism needs to be seen as racism whether it's perpetrated by black or white, traveller or settled etc.

Absolutely agree with this, racism is intolerable no matter who is saying it. However, I would not use the excuse that racism or racist remarks from one individual or a small group of individuals within a cultural identity to be a justification for racism or racist remarks that may stem from from individuals or groups within ones own cultural group towards them. (if that makes sense )

Dr Turk Turkelton

murphaph wrote: »

It should be noted that many "travellers" actually have houses and only travel around the circuit "on business", returning to their houses in winter.

Basically on the run whenever the law is looking for them they cannot be found.
Other than that they rarely "travel" nowadays.

Dr Turk Turkelton

Lantus wrote: »

There are cultural barriers and learned behaviour on both sides that contribute to this situation. It wasn't so long ago that if a black women and a white man were to have a relationship it would of been considered socially inapropriate. Today we might find it odd that people could think that way about it but in the future conversations like these will be considered equally bizzare by a generation that will grow up with much more available knowledge and less likley to believe the myth and opinion of others without sound fact and basis.

There are many different cultures all over the world and they exist in many different ways. To them THEIR way of life is normal to them just as ours is to us.

Where do you live if you don't mind me asking?
I have never heard of a socially inappropriate relationship between a white man and a black woman.
Are you in missiissippi circa 1960?

the_syco

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

A thing I don't get is if I want to live a free lifestyle wandering around the country I have to fund it myself but Travellers expect to keep drawing benefits while wanting to do the same thing.

If you litter, you get fined. If you trespass, fined, and maybe jailed. If you do this as a traveller, nothing happens.

murphaph

Red About Town wrote: »

Doesn't make any difference. They are still members of the Travelling community.

It makes a mockery of the notion that travellers are compelled to live in caravans, which many of them claim, so the state feels compelled to house them in halting sites at not insignificant cost to the rest of us.

bmaxi

MadsL wrote: »

Send in a letter to the Daily Mail about it...

Why would I send a letter, you're the one with the problem. Of course you could always tell my Mammy instead.

Dr Turk Turkelton

Apologies in advance folks as am on the phone so can't link to the article...

In today's Sunday World it names the family at the centre of this controversy in Donegal-none other than the brother of John "Frog" Ward!
Remember everyone this is the scumbag that terrorised Padraig Nally in Mayo before getting the old one two uniflu from him.

Nice people to be giving free houses to(it also says he has a number of convictions himself).

Another article on sulky racing in the Sunday World also-the story of the Travellers causing mayhem on the roads of Co.Clare earlier this year.

Death and Taxes

Cuchulainn1. wrote: »

Apologies in advance folks as am on the phone so can't link to the article...

In today's Sunday World it names the family at the centre of this controversy in Donegal-none other than the brother of John "Frog" Ward!
Remember everyone this is the scumbag that terrorised Padraig Nally in Mayo before getting the old one two uniflu from him.

Nice people to be giving free houses to(it also says he has a number of convictions himself).

Another article on sulky racing in the Sunday World also-the story of the Travellers causing mayhem on the roads of Co.Clare earlier this year.

By your logic, no person related to someone with a criminal conviction should ever recieve social housing.
He didn't give him the one two uniflu, he beat him, followed him onto the public road, reloaded his weapon and shot him as he lay dazed and injured on the ground, hardly something to celebrate.

Dr Turk Turkelton

^^^
I also mentioned he had a number of convictions himself.

edit: in relation to what Padraig Nally done-do unto that man as he would do onto you-except do it first!

oscarBravo

Cuchulainn1. wrote: »

edit: in relation to what Padraig Nally done-do unto that man as he would do onto you-except do it first!

So we should burgle burglars?

What a wonderful world you'd have us all live in.

the_syco

WileyCoyote (Accelleratii Incredibus!) wrote: »

By your logic, no person related to someone with a criminal conviction should ever recieve social housing.

So you're fine with giving free houses to people with lots of convictions?

Scofflaw

This is not political discussion - this is just displays of bigotry.

moderately,
Scofflaw

Death and Taxes

the_syco wrote: »

So you're fine with giving free houses to people with lots of convictions?

Free? Last time I checked those in social housing paid rent.

Lantus

the_syco wrote: »

If you litter, you get fined. If you trespass, fined, and maybe jailed. If you do this as a traveller, nothing happens.

Untrue, I see occurences every week where 'normal' people throw rubbish out of their cars or on the ground while walking, burn their rubbish in their back garden and allow their dogs to foul footpaths as and when they please. Virtually none of them would even worry about being seen let alone caught and punished.

The perception that we are all law abiding and 'they' are all evil is just nonsense. We just choose to believe that because it suits us.

Its the same nonsense like the belief that if we stamped out the 0.1% of the population who engage in cocaine abuse all our drug worries would be over while the other 99% slowly and smugly kill themselves with 'legal' alchohol.

Lantus

Cuchulainn1. wrote: »

Where do you live if you don't mind me asking?
I have never heard of a socially inappropriate relationship between a white man and a black woman.
Are you in missiissippi circa 1960?

Your correct that refers to a past point in history and america would be the ideal place.

Its a point that while we regard ourselves as being 'correct' in our belief that certain groups should be isolated and treated differently if we look at history then those times are the 'worst' examples of our behaviour.

What makes todays example any different? What will the children of tomorrow say about how we treat this group and our attitudes towards them. Teachers will tell school kids that we simply "knew no better" because we were uncivilised in those times and didn't posses the skills or education to be able to solve our problems constructively.

Dr Turk Turkelton

Lantus wrote: »

Your correct that refers to a past point in history and america would be the ideal place.

Its a point that while we regard ourselves as being 'correct' in our belief that certain groups should be isolated and treated differently if we look at history then those times are the 'worst' examples of our behaviour.

What makes todays example any different? What will the children of tomorrow say about how we treat this group and our attitudes towards them. Teachers will tell school kids that we simply "knew no better" because we were uncivilised in those times and didn't posses the skills or education to be able to solve our problems constructively.

But the Black people in the Southern USA were not a lawless race of people who showed no disregard for others property and lived their whole lives on welfare and free housing while crying about their traditions so they could be involved in more lawlessness.

If you believe that what the Travellers go through is the same as the Black persons fight for equality in the US you are very mistaken.

Look at the progression over there they now have a Black man as their President.
The Travellers have no interest in taking advantage of all society provides for them in order to get ahead-they would rather steal.

murphaph

WileyCoyote (Accelleratii Incredibus!) wrote: »

Free? Last time I checked those in social housing paid rent.

It's a peppercorn rent that bears no resemblance to the cost of providing the accommodation, ergo "free" is an apt enough description.

Black Swan

MOD REMINDER OF THE CHARTER:

Dr Galen wrote: »

Certain standards of debate are expected, and will be enforced.

If your posts consists of little more than a statement that some group of people or other are bad people and/or deserve prison/execution as traitors, think long and hard before pressing "submit", because we'll be treating that as trolling from here on in.

AlekSmart

murphaph wrote: »

It's a peppercorn rent that bears no resemblance to the cost of providing the accommodation, ergo "free" is an apt enough description.

I have little doubt that,taking a hypothetical case,of a typical family of 13,with either one or both parents unemployed,or on DSP benefit and perhaps a child with an illness requiring special provision will have a chargable rent of very small proportions.

If we take a property purchase price of c.€240,000 and add whatever amount will be required to bring it to acceptable standard,then we can see that the Local Authority will be carrying the greater financial burden.

Unless there are some new arrangements subsequent to the Dept of the Environment's intervention in relation to "special permission" ?

AlekSmart

WileyCoyote (Accelleratii Incredibus!) wrote: »

By your logic, no person related to someone with a criminal conviction should ever recieve social housing.
He didn't give him the one two uniflu, he beat him, followed him onto the public road, reloaded his weapon and shot him as he lay dazed and injured on the ground, hardly something to celebrate.

Mr Nally spent 11 months in prison,presumably not himself celebrating.

However,following on from the mans accquittal,are we now to stage a boards re-trial until we reach a a "Veridictum Incredibus"more suited to your view ?

I would also agree that there may well be,subject to robust overview, a certain logic in background checking those who seek to avail of significant benefits from the public purse.

Am I my brothers keeper...perhaps not,but brotherhood can be quite different in any two family settings.

Park Royal

I dont believe we should allow Irish Citizens be reared at the side of the road...

there for the grace of God .......

Putting any disadvantaged group in a commune and leaving them to stew by themselves is just going to get a more concentrated disadvantaged community....imho......( local authorities have made some terrible ghettos without proper facilities making economic/social advancement nigh impossible)

Our history is we crawled out of the gutter through education......thank you CBS and other teaching religious ....( except for the phedos)

I can well understand the huge disquiet at this family getting a large house with half an acre of land.....in Ballyshannon....while other Donegal people to this very day live without electricity , or running water.....( ie as seen on Prime Time last week, that elderly lady that was robbed twice))

The difficulty I have is I could not bear to have them placed beside me.....I wish this was different .....I met Mrs Ward and was impressed by her.....