Refused sale of alcohol - forced to buy in lower quantities

Cathalog

Hi all,

Firstly, this is not a "they didn't accept my ID" thread.

I went into a shop today to buy vodka. I wanted 35cl but was going to browse to see if I could get a larger quantity for a cheaper price.

I saw that a litre of Smirnoff was being sold for €20 - a bargain! I went up with the bottle and gave the clerk my ID (Garda age card).

He said "so you've just turned 18?" I said "yes". He then explained to me that he is not allowed to sell 18 year olds bottles - only naggins and cans.

I went there the other day and bought a bottle no problem.

So I was forced to buy 350mls of a cheaper brand for 11 euro when I could've gotten a more expensive brand and nearly 3 times the amount for only double the price.

I was completely ripped off. I'm just wondering if the shop has a right to refuse the sale and force me to pay a higher price per litre?

keithclancy

Cathalog wrote: »

Hi all,

Firstly, this is not a "they didn't accept my ID" thread.

I went into a shop today to buy vodka. I wanted 35cl but was going to browse to see if I could get a larger quantity for a cheaper price.

I saw that a litre of Smirnoff was being sold for €20 - a bargain! I went up with the bottle and gave the clerk my ID (Garda age card).

He said "so you've just turned 18?" I said "yes". He then explained to me that he is not allowed to sell 18 year olds bottles - only naggins and cans.

I went there the other day and bought a bottle no problem.

So I was forced to buy 350mls of a cheaper brand for 11 euro when I could've gotten a more expensive brand and nearly 3 times the amount for only double the price.

I was completely ripped off. I'm just wondering if the shop has a right to refuse the sale and force me to pay a higher price per litre?

You weren't forced to do anything, you could have just gone to a different shop.

foggy_lad

Short answer is there is no law stating you are not allowed buy bottles.

The off licence decided to make even more from you by forcing you to buy a more expensive(per litre) product and took advantage of most young people's ignorance of their rights.

syklops

He then explained to me that he is not allowed to sell 18 year olds bottles - only naggins and cans.

At this point you should have said, "Well buddy boy, you have lost yourself a consumer, and further more I am opening a thread on this on boards.ie. I might even put a call in to Joe Duffy, either way you're not getting a penny off me until this rule is relaxed. Bu-bye!"

AltAccount

foggy_lad wrote: »

Short answer is there is no law stating you are not allowed buy bottles.

The off licence decided to make even more from you by forcing you to buy a more expensive(per litre) product and took advantage of most young people's ignorance of their rights.

What rights are you referring to exactly?

P_1

Just because something is available for sale doesn't mean that the shop has to sell it to you.

Simple case of 'invitation to treat' in action.

cgarrad

Surprised by this, either allow purchase of alcohol by 18 year olds or not.

Enforcing arbitrary quantities is total nonsense.

P_1

cgarrad wrote: »

Surprised by this, either allow purchase of alcohol by 18 year olds or not.

Enforcing arbitrary quantities is total nonsense.

It's the shop applying their own additional control to the purchase of alcohol.

Maybe the area around it has a problem with 18 year olds off their heads on vodka?

foggy_lad

AltAccount wrote: »

What rights are you referring to exactly?

It sounds like the shop was trying to make the person believe that they could not legally sell them larger quantities because of their age. Any 18 year old has the right to purchase any amount of alcoholic beverages evn if they have just turned 18.

dpofloinn

You simply had the piss taken out of you

dan1895

Possibly age discrimination? More than likely though, they were taking advantage of your youth and naivete to get a few extra Euro out of you.

28064212

foggy_lad wrote: »

It sounds like the shop was trying to make the person believe that they could not legally sell them larger quantities because of their age. Any 18 year old has the right to purchase any amount of alcoholic beverages evn if they have just turned 18.

And any shop has the right to refuse to sell to that same 18 year old. Just like any shop can decree that they will only sell toothpaste on the 3rd Tuesday of every month to people wearing sandals.

The only way the OP could have a case is under the Equal Status Act on the basis of age discrimination

Cathalog

keithclancy wrote: »

You weren't forced to do anything, you could have just gone to a different shop.

I did this. Guess how much the same product was in a different shop? Over €30.

foggy_lad wrote: »

Short answer is there is no law stating you are not allowed buy bottles.

The off licence decided to make even more from you by forcing you to buy a more expensive(per litre) product and took advantage of most young people's ignorance of their rights.

I do know of my right to buy any alcoholic beverage that I want now that I'm 18. However, I did know that a shop didn't have to sell me anything (read posts below).

syklops wrote: »

At this point you should have said, "Well buddy boy, you have lost yourself a consumer, and further more I am opening a thread on this on boards.ie. I might even put a call in to Joe Duffy, either way you're not getting a penny off me until this rule is relaxed. Bu-bye!"

You really think that a normal employee/clerk at a store could give a damn about that? A manager maybe, but not a lad at the till.

28064212 wrote: »

And any shop has the right to refuse to sell to that same 18 year old. Just like any shop can decree that they will only sell toothpaste on the 3rd Tuesday of every month to people wearing sandals.

The only way the OP could have a case is under the Equal Status Act on the basis of age discrimination

Thanks. That's very helpful.

Cathalog

Old post where I quoted a UK law by accident:
I had a brief look at that Act, and this is why it may not apply:

(1)A person (A) discriminates against another (B) if A applies to B a provision, criterion or practice which is discriminatory in relation to a relevant protected characteristic of B's.

(2)For the purposes of subsection (1), a provision, criterion or practice is discriminatory in relation to a relevant protected characteristic of B's if—

(a)A applies, or would apply, it to persons with whom B does not share the characteristic,

(b)it puts, or would put, persons with whom B shares the characteristic at a particular disadvantage when compared with persons with whom B does not share it,

(c)it puts, or would put, B at that disadvantage, and

(d)A cannot show it to be a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim.

Source: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/section/19

Now the aim of the store is to probably prevent teens going mad on vodka in the area. So perhaps it's in their right?
I'd love to go in and ask them for 5 naggins (makes up 1L) and see what they say.
If I was allowed to purchase them, then this is pure and utter discrimination.

The fact that I bought a 70cl bottle for 17 or 18 euro a few days beforehand without problems may also indicate that I was discriminated against. (The €20/L offer wasn't available at the time)

Anyways, I'll shoot off an email to them quoting the Act and see what I get. Also will threaten to post their name here.

Well I found the text of the Equal Status Act here: http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2000/en/act/pub/0008/print.html#sec3
Seems promising. I'll give myself a go at sending an email.

EDIT: I think I just quoted a UK Act, and not the EU one... How ever I managed that. Better do some more research.

EDIT2: Equal Status Act included

Del2005

28064212 wrote: »

And any shop has the right to refuse to sell to that same 18 year old. Just like any shop can decree that they will only sell toothpaste on the 3rd Tuesday of every month to people wearing sandals.

The only way the OP could have a case is under the Equal Status Act on the basis of age discrimination

The OP wanted to buy something in a big bottle. The shop worker said no you're too young to buy that, but here you can buy a smaller bottle of the same product.

Seems like a fairly clear case of age discrimination to me. Did they have any age restrictions on view?

Procrastastudy

Cathalog wrote: »

EDIT: I think I just quoted a UK Act, and not the EU one... How ever I managed that. Better do some more research.

While you're at it you might want to see how European law is enacted in Ireland

OP may have a case under discrimination - it's not that the shop refused to serve him, which they can do, but they gave reasons and limited their product range on the grounds of age.

Cathalog

Del2005 wrote: »

The OP wanted to buy something in a big bottle. The shop worker said no you're too young to buy that, but here you can buy a smaller bottle of the same product.

Seems like a fairly clear case of age discrimination to me. Did they have any age restrictions on view?

Nothing that I could see. I bought a bottle there (70cl) a few days ago. My ID was checked and there were no problems.

I've sent them an email regarding the issue explicitly stating how they discriminated me, quoting the Equality Act.


I edited my previous post with a link to what I used. It's Irish law this time :P

syklops

You really think that a normal employee/clerk at a store could give a damn about that? A manager maybe, but not a lad at the till.

How do you know the guy you talked to wasn't the manager or even owner. Even that aside, how about this:

Day #1 Manager => Chad(Worker) : "how are we doing today?"

Chad:"Well I had a few teenagers in looking to buy litre bottles of vodka but I told them our rule and they didnt buy anything and left"
Manager:"So we have curbed teen binge drinking. Great!"
Chad:"Yeah, but there is also 90 quid less in the cash register than there could have been"
Manager:"We'll get over it"

Day #2 Manager => Chad(Worker) : "how are we doing today?"

Chad:"Well I had a few teenagers in looking to buy litre bottles of vodka but I told them our rule and they didnt buy anything and left"
Manager:"So we have curbed teen binge drinking. Great!"
Chad:"Yeah, but there is also 90 quid less in the cash register than there could have been"
Manager:"We'll get over it"

Day #3 Manager => Chad(Worker) : "how are we doing today?"

Chad:"Well I had a few teenagers in looking to buy litre bottles of vodka but I told them our rule and they didnt buy anything and left"
Manager:"Chad, I've been talking to them upstairs, takings are down. If things dont improve we're going to have to lose some people, and by people I mean you.
Chad:"How about we get rid of our dumb f^%king rule about 18 year olds buying bottles of spirit?
Manager:"Good idea!"

Cathalog

syklops wrote: »

How do you know the guy you talked to wasn't the manager or even owner. Even that aside, how about this:

Day #1 Manager => Chad(Worker) : "how are we doing today?"

Chad:"Well I had a few teenagers in looking to buy litre bottles of vodka but I told them our rule and they didnt buy anything and left"
Manager:"So we have curbed teen binge drinking. Great!"
Chad:"Yeah, but there is also 90 quid less in the cash register than there could have been"
Manager:"We'll get over it"

Day #2 Manager => Chad(Worker) : "how are we doing today?"

Chad:"Well I had a few teenagers in looking to buy litre bottles of vodka but I told them our rule and they didnt buy anything and left"
Manager:"So we have curbed teen binge drinking. Great!"
Chad:"Yeah, but there is also 90 quid less in the cash register than there could have been"
Manager:"We'll get over it"

Day #3 Manager => Chad(Worker) : "how are we doing today?"

Chad:"Well I had a few teenagers in looking to buy litre bottles of vodka but I told them our rule and they didnt buy anything and left"
Manager:"Chad, I've been talking to them upstairs, takings are down. If things dont improve we're going to have to lose some people, and by people I mean you.
Chad:"How about we get rid of our dumb f^%king rule about 18 year olds buying bottles of spirit?
Manager:"Good idea!"

It's a supermarket. Granted there's a possibility that he'd be the manager/owner, but it's slim.

I do see your point, honestly. But I don't really like giving out to someone who's just doing their job. It's hardly his fault. I should have asked for the manager to come down though - I do see that mistake.

syklops

You can impress upon someone that you won't be using their services without giving out to them, but it is nice you acknowledge it.

The point of my posting is that its very common in both consumer affairs and the Rip off Ireland fora for people to have felt hard done by or even ripped off, but instead of voting with their feet/wallets, or complaining about it, they get annoyed and come to boards to vent their frustrations. That wont change anything, and if you doubt that 'little old me' can change anything, then you need to realise that the only thing that has changed things in the past is the first person who stood up. Or in the case of Rosa Parks, who refused to stand up.

Wils110

Code of practice from the shop to try curb binge drinking is all...if something happened to just turned 18 year old from excessive drinking the shop would be in trouble for selling a litre for €20 euro to a just turned 18 year old
Media would have a field day

Owen_S

Wils110 wrote: »

Code of practice from the shop to try curb binge drinking is all...if something happened to just turned 18 year old from excessive drinking the shop would be in trouble for selling a litre for €20 euro to a just turned 18 year old
Media would have a field day

Binge drinking is defined as having 5 'standard drinks'. The 350ml of Vodka sold to the OP contains 10 standard drinks, more than enough for binge drinking.

Wils110

And as the op has being stereotyped (drinking with his mates still under age) 350 ml won't go to far in the shops eyes..I'm surprised this ain't come up before cause its practice in a lot of off licences when it comes to spirits

RUSTEDCORE

syklops wrote: »

At this point you should have said, "Well buddy boy, you have lost yourself a consumer, and further more I am opening a thread on this on boards.ie. I might even put a call in to Joe Duffy, either way you're not getting a penny off me until this rule is relaxed. Bu-bye!"

why so the shop keeper would laugh at him and question his sexuality

syklops

RUSTEDCORE wrote: »

why so the shop keeper would laugh at him and question his sexuality

What?

Mustn't be any recession in your part of the country if a shop keeper can laugh off the loss of a 20 euro purchase.

RUSTEDCORE

syklops wrote: »

What?

Mustn't be any recession in your part of the country if a shop keeper can laugh off the loss of a 20 euro purchase.

well im from dublin so if your not i suppose comparatively theres not...

really it was not what you said but how you said it....I wouldve said if you wont sell me it ill buy it somewhere else and may have said I would report him to the ombudsman.


I wouldnt have performed some merry poppins rant with phrases like Well buddy boy

RoboRat

There was probably some community action group onto the Supermarket about alcohol problems and they came to a compromise, Under XX age and we will try and sell them a smaller amount. If said supermarket didn't conform, they would encourage people to take their business elsewhere.

I don't think that they were pulling a fast one, just think that they have some kind of policy in place.

When I was 18, I remember trying to buy alcohol in a supermarket and I was refused flat out, only over 23 and I remember arguing that I was legally entitled to buy alcohol to which I was told that they were also legally entitled to the right of refusal, or to put it another way, they can put restrictions in place.

Procrastastudy

RoboRat wrote: »

There was probably some community action group onto the Supermarket about alcohol problems and they came to a compromise, Under XX age and we will try and sell them a smaller amount. If said supermarket didn't conform, they would encourage people to take their business elsewhere.

I don't think that they were pulling a fast one, just think that they have some kind of policy in place.

When I was 18, I remember trying to buy alcohol in a supermarket and I was refused flat out, only over 23 and I remember arguing that I was legally entitled to buy alcohol to which I was told that they were also legally entitled to the right of refusal, or to put it another way, they can put restrictions in place.

Refusal, restrictions and refusal for a stated reason are three different propositions.

RoboRat

Refusal, restrictions and refusal for a stated reason are three different propositions.

I would have thought that refusal for a stated reason was the same as restriction, if the restriction was that they would not sell alcohol to someone under 23.

Anyhow, that was a long time ago and I am not sure if supermarkets still operate the over 23 policy.

Cathalog

syklops wrote: »

You can impress upon someone that you won't be using their services without giving out to them, but it is nice you acknowledge it.

The point of my posting is that its very common in both consumer affairs and the Rip off Ireland fora for people to have felt hard done by or even ripped off, but instead of voting with their feet/wallets, or complaining about it, they get annoyed and come to boards to vent their frustrations. That wont change anything, and if you doubt that 'little old me' can change anything, then you need to realise that the only thing that has changed things in the past is the first person who stood up. Or in the case of Rosa Parks, who refused to stand up.

I didn't come to boards venting my frustration. I came to boards seeking advice on whether I had a case.
I didn't want to give out if I had no right to.

Wils110 wrote: »

Code of practice from the shop to try curb binge drinking is all...if something happened to just turned 18 year old from excessive drinking the shop would be in trouble for selling a litre for €20 euro to a just turned 18 year old
Media would have a field day

Why should I have to suffer if there are others my age who can't be responsible with a large quantity of alcohol. I, for one, purchase this amount in order to save money. I'd have no problem if they charged me 20*0.35=€7 for a 35cl bottle. That way, I wouldn't be put in a disadvantaged state(price per litre remains the same). However, I was put at a disadvantage (which The Equality Act states is a form of discrimination over the "age ground" provided I'm not under 18) as I had to pay more per liter.

RoboRat wrote: »

There was probably some community action group onto the Supermarket about alcohol problems and they came to a compromise, Under XX age and we will try and sell them a smaller amount. If said supermarket didn't conform, they would encourage people to take their business elsewhere.

I don't think that they were pulling a fast one, just think that they have some kind of policy in place.

When I was 18, I remember trying to buy alcohol in a supermarket and I was refused flat out, only over 23 and I remember arguing that I was legally entitled to buy alcohol to which I was told that they were also legally entitled to the right of refusal, or to put it another way, they can put restrictions in place.

Then how come I could buy a bottle a few days previously when the special offer wasn't in place, and the price/litre was higher?

Perhaps the Equality Act wasn't in force when you were 18?

RoboRat

Then how come I could buy a bottle a few days previously when the special offer wasn't in place, and the price/litre was higher?

Maybe they think you have a bit of a problem buying all that drink so close together :-P