Sleep techniques

lounakin

Hello all!
I've been posting a lot lately looking for help. I'll try anything at this stage!
I'm looking to try new sleep techniques for my daughter who never sleeps and is very tired and cranky.
Just for the background: she is 8 months, very active. During the day we used to be able to put her down for 2 or 3 naps quite 'easily'. She'd start getting tired and one of us would take her to her room, put on her grobag and rock her til she closed her eyes then put her down. It would take a few tries and patience but generally would work well. As for night time, it would be harder to get her down but then the entire night would be easy: she winges, I feed her, she goes right back to sleep. That was before...
Now when she gets tired she doesn't want to go to sleep and fights it for ages. She stiffens up so we take her back out of the room to play. With me she just cries with tiredness so I generally just try to rock and sing to her for about 45 minutes. I'll try to put her down but that's when she starts screaming like a banshee as soon as she hits the mattress. And to my dismay and horror she never nurses to sleep any more. Never! She just finishes and starts clapping or saying mama.
So lately it's been so harrowing trying to put her down that I've had to let her scream. I thought ok, the cry-it-out technique doesn't look so bad right now! Well, she'll scream for an hour straight without weakening. I haven't let her cry longer than that. I've also tried standing in the room with her, I've tried caressing her, tapping her back, holding her hand: endless banshee screams.
I feel so useless I wish supernanny would come and help me!
Edit: I know she's ok because outside of napping times she's perfectly fine. She has 4 teeth and doesn't seem bothered by teething.

Xdancer

You poor thing lounakin. That can't be easy.

My little one went through a phase of roaring instead of going to sleep, so I decided to try the pick up put down method using time intervals that wouldn't fray my nerves or make me feel too evil. I used to (and still do when necessary) use intervals of 1, 2, 3, 5, 7, 9, 12 and 15 minutes.

After her usual bedtime routine of her bath, bottle (in her room) and bedtime story I put her in her cot and leave the room. If she starts roaring I leave her for 1 minute then go in, pick her up, soothe her, put her back in the cot and leave. If she cries I then leave her for 2 minutes, go in etc, then 3 minutes etc

It was hard going, but it worked and now she goes down easily most nights. If she wakes in the middle of the night I do the same thing.

I really hope you find a system that works for you

pwurple

You really do sound like you are struggling all round at the moment. very hard to even think straight without sleep.

They say sleep begets sleep... This to me always meant that naps are important for main bedtime. Even now, when mine misses her nap, she is much crosser at bedtime at night. Overtired, cranky, angry and unsettled.

You might need to find new ways to get those daytime naps sorted out before bedtime gets easier.

Have you tried any other way for her to go to sleep during the day? Bouncy chair, buggy, high chair, buzzing sounds like the tumble dryer or hoover? Even the car (not recommended for long sleeps, but ok for the short naps maybe). Mine never napped in a cot during the day for some reason. Even in creche, she only slept in the highchair reclined.

Screaming for an hour sounds so stressful for both of you. My heart goes out to you.

CaraMay

What is her daily routine from morning til bedtime?

lounakin

Xdancer, I will try that technique for daytime naps, I thought I tried that but come to think of it I wasn't consistent with it.
The naps are the issue here too, night time is only really hard the first time and then even if she wakes up and won't go back to sleep she's still not as unsettled as during the day. So it's mostly naps I need help with, sorry I didn't make that clear.
Pwurple, my daughter has never liked cars, buggies etc and never really slept in them. She never liked the bouncy chair I got for her either... not at ANY age! She cannot stand still, even when she was 2 weeks old I couldn't put her down on her play mat, she'd just roll off and start licking a chair.
That said I've tried to put her down nursing in my bed or just cuddling, this doesn't work either.

lounakin

CaraMay wrote: »

What is her daily routine from morning til bedtime?

She hasn't had one in a few months, it went out the window when she got her first teeth and hasn't come back since. I can only give you a rough idea of a good day: she wakes at 8, my partner gets her from the room and changes her, we play in the bed and I nurse her. Then we go to the living room and play, she gets tired around 9, I work to put her down and it used to work. She'd sleep for 20 to 50 minutes. Then lunch, play and another nap, usually 30 minutes. She gets nursed again around 16:30 and then it gets harder, she gets tired but it's hard to know whether to let her nap or not. Sometimes she'll nap and go to bed quite late, sometimes she won't nap and go to bed around 7:30. Night time at best: she wakes up every 3 hours for nursing. But we haven't had a routine in ages. We've had sleepless nights more than regular ones and she sleeps through to 1 pm!

Gee_G

lounakin wrote: »

Xdancer, I will try that technique for daytime naps, I thought I tried that but come to think of it I wasn't consistent with it.
The naps are the issue here too, night time is only really hard the first time and then even if she wakes up and won't go back to sleep she's still not as unsettled as during the day. So it's mostly naps I need help with, sorry I didn't make that clear.
Pwurple, my daughter has never liked cars, buggies etc and never really slept in them. She never liked the bouncy chair I got for her either... not at ANY age! She cannot stand still, even when she was 2 weeks old I couldn't put her down on her play mat, she'd just roll off and start licking a chair.
That said I've tried to put her down nursing in my bed or just cuddling, this doesn't work either.

I have resorted to letting my little man lie on the couch beside me and doze off
he was a nightmare for daytime naps,would go down but would only have a power nap! He loves lying on the couch kicking(like your little one, won't stay in chairs etc. ) and now he has 2 or 3 naps of maybe over an hour each which is a huge difference!!

lounakin

Gee_G wrote: »

I have resorted to letting my little man lie on the couch beside me and doze off
he was a nightmare for daytime naps,would go down but would only have a power nap! He loves lying on the couch kicking(like your little one, won't stay in chairs etc. ) and now he has 2 or 3 naps of maybe over an hour each which is a huge difference!!

Oh she doesn't do that! When she's tired she only wants to be held and rocked, I've tried just setting her down on the couch with me, dim the lights, that has never worked. She'll either scream or just stand up and start playing.

today for instance, couldn't get her down for her afternoon nap, she went down just a while ago and is still napping at quarter to 8!

Xdancer

I just remembered that we went through a nightmare stage if her not wanting to nap (it's amazing what you can forget in a few short months!)
I resorted to lying her on the bed with a pillow on one side of her and me on the other. I would lie on my side facing her, put one hand on her tummy and pretend to be asleep. She would eventually get bored and fall asleep.

lounakin

Xdancer wrote: »

I just remembered that we went through a nightmare stage if her not wanting to nap (it's amazing what you can forget in a few short months!)
I resorted to lying her on the bed with a pillow on one side of her and me on the other. I would lie on my side facing her, put one hand on her tummy and pretend to be asleep. She would eventually get bored and fall asleep.

I have tried that! At first she just hits me in the face and pokes my eyes, then ends up screaming and screaming. I have never had enough patience to see it through, I'd cave after about 20 minutes though.

littlemissfixit

It may be a case that you need to use one technique, whichever one, and keep at it for several days. I dont know how long you tried the different things, but at her age, she is well used to getting her way now and it can take a while to change that, depending on her personality too, I know my boy is very stubborn and whenever I tried to "sort him out" so to speak about sleep, taking bottle, etc. It took quite a bit of persistence.
At the moment you might have lost faith that something is gonna work, but it will. Once you decide what to do write it down!!! This is what made the difference for me, I realised even though I thought I was being quite consistent, that I wasnt really, and babies need to know you mean business and the only way is by doing the same thing everytime.
Saying that, I prefer changing things progressively to limit the upsets. The pick up put down didnt work for us as well as the control crying. As opposed to the cry-it-out, you dont leave the child to cry indefinately, you go back to them at intervals, consistently increasing the time, with watch and monitor turned down.

Does she sleep in pram if you take a walk, or in the car if you driving? If so, I would try to sort out one nap with the technique you choose and then walk or drive to have her sleeping at the times you want for her routine, so that she gets enough sleep during the day as not to disturb her nighttime sleep.

Does she turn on her side or tummy to sleep? My son was really only consistently good at naps and sleep once he could turn and make himself comfy.

I hope any of this can be helpful at all I know how demented it can drive you when they wont sleep!

pwurple

Where is she napping when/if she naps? Is it on you, or in a cot, or on a bed?

You could try one of the routines, but like the poster above me says, it takes three or four days for anything to start working. And we all know when you have no sleep you don't know whether you are coming or going.

Writing it down is great advice as well. I did that when I was tired and on my own. I had a little notebook.

You could try the 2.5 hour routine below if you wanted an example one to have a go on with? This is what my creche had mine on at 8 months. It is basically 2.5 hours of awake, between 40 mins of naps.

Whatever you do, routine or not, make yr choices and try to be consistant, get some help from family/partner with it.

So here is ours if you want to try.
Wake at 7:30 or 8 and bfeed straight away on waking. Shower for you, she can play with toys in the bathroom. You will feel better after the shower.
Brekkie/Snack for both of you at 9:30. Get ready for her nap around 10:20, she should be fairly sleepy at this stage, nap at 10:30.

Wake at 11:30 if she is not awake already. Milk feed.
some lunch food at 12:30. Lunch for you too.
Get ready for nap at about 2.

Wake at 2:45. Snack and milk in the afternoon.

Next nap at about 5pm, but keep it v short... 15 mins max. This one can be skipped if the others went well. It is just to stave off the overtired grouchy monster at bedtime. Food at 5:30 or 6.

bedtime at 7:30

lounakin

pwurple wrote: »

Where is she napping when/if she naps? Is it on you, or in a cot, or on a bed?

You could try one of the routines, but like the poster above me says, it takes three or four days for anything to start working. And we all know when you have no sleep you don't know whether you are coming or going.

Writing it down is great advice as well. I did that when I was tired and on my own. I had a little notebook.

You could try the 2.5 hour routine below if you wanted an example one to have a go on with? This is what my creche had mine on at 8 months. It is basically 2.5 hours of awake, between 40 mins of naps.

Whatever you do, routine or not, make yr choices and try to be consistant, get some help from family/partner with it.

So here is ours if you want to try.
Wake at 7:30 or 8 and bfeed straight away on waking. Shower for you, she can play with toys in the bathroom. You will feel better after the shower.
Brekkie/Snack for both of you at 9:30. Get ready for her nap around 10:20, she should be fairly sleepy at this stage, nap at 10:30.

Wake at 11:30 if she is not awake already. Milk feed.
some lunch food at 12:30. Lunch for you too.
Get ready for nap at about 2.

Wake at 2:45. Snack and milk in the afternoon.

Next nap at about 5pm, but keep it v short... 15 mins max. This one can be skipped if the others went well. It is just to stave off the overtired grouchy monster at bedtime. Food at 5:30 or 6.

bedtime at 7:30

She naps in her cot. What you describe is pretty much how our days used to be except for the shower part, I cannot let her on her own like that, I could put her in the playpen but I'd be having a shower of screams and I'm not up for that these days. The problem now is I cannot put her down for her naps and if she misses one then the rest of the day is awful.

littlemissfixit

Our routine is almost exactly as above, only he wakes for feed around half 5/6 so instead of bfeed when waking at 7h30, its up and play and breakfast at round 8. And bedtime is at 7pm. But same thing, the last nap he often skips if he slept more than his 40 mins at the other naps.
We have it then in such a way that food and milk times are not associated with sleep time which I find a good idea especially during the weaning process, they are not too tired to eat/nurse and dont wake up earlier for it either.
I breastfeed on demand at night, but I always wait when he first moans or cry to give him a chance to self-sooth first, when he doesnt stop I normally know its hunger. But during the day, I find that sticking to a fairly regular schedule works better for us than on demand (my son was a snacker, he could niblle all day long never filling up properly!), but thats just us.

JTormey

You poor thing - that sounds really tough.
We had the same thing but at 4 months age. Our little one wasn't able to fall asleep on his own and needed help getting to sleep- i would nurse him to sleep or husband would rock him to sleep and all naps were only 45 mins.
We did the controlled crying technique and since then we can just pop him into the cot awake and he will fall asleep on his own, plus he now naps for longer and is way happier when awake.
i think at 8 months if you try the cry it out technique it is going to take a bit longer and you need to be persistent and stick with it... it could take a few days to really get into the new routine.
it is tough but be persistent and i imagine it will eventually work. get your partner to take a few days off work if he can so you have the support to see it through as well (i know i would have caved in after an hour without my husband there...).
Also agree with setting a routine and really sticking with it.#

Have you been on this forum at all? It had some helpful advice when we were contemplating the cry-it-out. It is run by a sleep consultant Edel gargan, who runs the baby sleep academy.

http://www.rollercoaster.ie/Discussions/tabid/119/ForumThread/141263870/Default.aspx

Good luck!

CaraMay

I agree with the last poster - you need a military style routine. My baby wakes or is woken at 6.45. Bottle in the high chair then and cereal at 7.45. Snack eg toast at 9 and nap from 10.30 to c 11.45 in the pram. Then lunch around 12.30, bottle an hour later and then snack and sleep for 45 min at 3.30. Dinner at 5 and lots of play and snack at 7. Bath at 8, playtime and story in his room at about 8.25 then last big bottle and asleep at latest 9.

He does wake for a bottle during the night (to be addressed in coming weeks) but no matter how long he is up for at night we wake him at 6.45 and max naps of c 2 1/4 hours during the day. The bath IMHO is the key. Once he starts to sleep all night the routine can be relaxed. You can try to play with baby in her room aside from just at bedtime as it makes them more relaxed in the room. I have been helped build that routine and its changed our lives in the last few weeks. Why not try something similar?

littlemissfixit

lounakin wrote: »

She naps in her cot. What you describe is pretty much how our days used to be except for the shower part, I cannot let her on her own like that, I could put her in the playpen but I'd be having a shower of screams and I'm not up for that these days. The problem now is I cannot put her down for her naps and if she misses one then the rest of the day is awful.

Thats what I mean when I say do it progressively, try to sort out one thing at time, easier on you and on her. When I was sorting out L, his last nap was always dodgy and at that time he still needed it or he would be crying all the way to bedtime, so I would arrange that we would take a drive at that time cause he slept well in the car. Then again, that wont help you if she doesnt sleep anywhere at all, does she?
If you do the control crying, I think they suggest that if your nap "window" is say from 10 to 11 am, that if the child is not sleeping at the end of the hour, to get them up and go on as if they had taken that nap... easier said than done, but it makes more sens if you try to reintroduce a routine.

My son cries whenever I go to leave a room and as been doing so for a few weeks now, but I make a point of just popping my head round the door and talk to him but keep at what I meant to do. He cries in his highchair if he is finished his breakfast and I dont take him out straight away, but if Im having my breakfast or washing up quickly, I keep going and talk to him. Its not changing anything for now, but I think that in the long run, I am teaching him that other people have needs too, and that we are there for him, but are not his slaves.

But as I said, tackle one thing at a time, and for the rest make it as easy on your nerves as possible, so if you are attacking the nap problem, go on and give her all attention she demands when its not sleeptime, it will make her more secure if the changes at naptime unsettle her.
If you are a little worried about her food intake at the moment, I would say check her weight and make sure you're at ease with that so you wont be distracted by that worry while trying to get her to nap.

lmullen

I found the intervals the best for my little one! She's almost 7 months and only sleeps for an hour if we're lucky during the day but then she'll sleep 12 or 13 hours at night time! Her bedtime routine was basically fall asleep having her bottle then we'd pop her in her cot and this worked well till a few weeks ago when she stopped falling asleep with the bottle. So we were rocking and walking her to sleep but it was taking over an hour. So we gave the interval method a go - the first night she finished her bottle I put her down gave her her teddy and a kiss and left the room - I left her for 5 mins and she cried for the whole time - went in picked her up for 5 minutes and put her back down she cried for a minute or two and fell asleep. Since then we haven't had to go back into her room. She's a thumb sucker so she pops her thumb into her mouth holds her teddy and off she goes to dream land! In bed at 7:30 and we've to wake her at 7 as we've to go to work, at the weekend she'll sleep till after 8! good luck! it's fantastic when you crack the bedtime routine!

lounakin

She used to have that routine, I just don't know what's changed... these days if she misses the nap window I don't insist but she is awful after that, bawling and unable to function, it's not like I can distract her with a toy or a song, nothing works.
She seems to have figured out the nap routine and is unwilling to go on that's why I want to try something else, obviously she doesn't like the routine or she's just testing me, I don't know.
I also tried two things: one was to spend the day responding to her without letting her cry so that she's always happy and other days where I let her cry before, well the end result is exactly the same.
We used to console ourselves before by saying: 'she always goes to sleep eventually' but that's not true any more!
Perhaps there's nothing to be done and it's just a phase?

edit: I have to add that she doesn't suck her thumb, recently started consistently refusing the dodie and doesn't want her security blanket, she goes to bed cold turkey.

JTormey

perhaps try get a sleep consultant to come to your house and get advice from them? we looked into it before and it seemed like the price of the visit and advice would be well worth it...

Julo12

I don't know how ur coping, I know I get frazzled with one bad night never mind months of it. I'm sure ur sick of ppl asking if she's getting enough milk from bfeeding as that was the only suggestions I got from 3 different phns when my lil girl went thru a bad screaming phase at 3 months but do u think it could be a bit of hunger disturbing her? I tried expressing and when she got really fussy I'd give her a bottle. Being able to get plenty of milk really quick seemed to calm her down. Then after winding I'd put her in the pram and walk til she fell asleep. At first I'd be walking for an hr to get her to take a proper nap but now I walk for 10 mins or so and can come back to the house with her asleep and she'll usually nap for the hour.
I know u said she doesn't like the buggy but I found it was a bit like controlled crying but at least ur outside and walking so it doesn't feel quite as awful as listening to the screaming inside.
This is probably no help but sending hugs to you and hope you get a break soon.

lounakin

Thanks for sending hugs I was wondering about the hunger because she'd lost a lot of weight... or so I thought. I use my own bathroom scales to weigh her and between 2 days ago and today I found a difference of 600gm! So today she's the weight she should be. In any case I've been very careful to give her a lot of food because I thought she was losing weight
I don't see why my milk would become an issue at 8 months and there's nothing to suggest that in her behaviour but I could be wrong. I still nurse her about 8 to 10 times in a 24 hour period and she's started eating solids. She doesn't seem hungry... that said I just got my period last week for the first time, I hear it can affect your milk. I didn't think of that.
As for the bottle, she never seemed to get used to it and she certainly never drank more than a few gulps of breast milk from it the few weeks I tried.
In the stroller she doesn't cry at all, she just doesn't go to sleep! She stares into space.
She's a tough cookie, to give you an example: we had to a good few do very long drives with her (8/9 hours), the first time I was too afraid to break the law and take her on my lap so out of the 9 hours she cried for 7. The second time I did take her on my lap for a couple of hours, she cried for about 6 hours and the last time I ended up carrying her almost the entire time except for 3 hours in her seat that she spent screaming. That was at 2, 4, 6 and 7 months.

CaraMay

Op you are doing a great job. We were at breaking point and needed a serious routine and thank god it worked but I know how easily a routine can be upset.

It's also so hard to implement any change when you are knackered. Do you have anyone who can give you a break for a night? Maybe she will take the bottle if you are not there.

Just wanted to say you are doing great and it will all come together.

Julo12

That is one tough cookie alright!
I follow the Clevamamma pg on Facebook and they've had a lady on from sleepmatters.ie giving answers to sleep related problems that are sent in - usually Tuesdays I think. Could be worth looking into a consultation? I know I thought of it a couple of months ago when it was taking 2 hrs or more to get her back to sleep when she woke at night. Not sure where ur based. They're in Cork but will consult over Skype or phone.

Gee_G

It could be just a phase, testing the boundaries and if anything like my little man, he's pure nosey and I think he sometimes won't sleep for fear he'd miss something! we had a great routine here going to bed at 7 until about 8 or 9am.....until christmas! Now goes to bed at 7,back up at 8 and is still here having great fun beside me! I too am hoping this is just a phase
hopefully you manage to get a good sleep soon!
Have you tried any of the lullaby or baby app's on your phone to calm her down while trying to settle her for a nap or even bedtime? I have a lullaby app,he loves it!

lounakin

... (baby screaming in the background at 11:30 pm), she loves music, it calms her but whether I sing to her or put on her favourite CD it doesn't help at all. Now I only use her favourite song when she's screamed for so long nothing will calm her, she'll be sobbing for about 30 minutes so I play the song and sing to her. Still no sleep though. We are a family of musicians so I think she finds music too stimulating.
What really bothers me is the nursing to sleep thing... i know a lot of women who still do it even though their child is much older than mine, I don't understand why she doesn't want to do it. It used to be our sure-fire last resort thing.
Anyway, it's been 2 and a half hours tonight to try and put her to bed! Here's to hoping we at least get some sleep at some point!
As for the bottle: I never gave it to her it was always her dad or someone else, I wasn't here. She wouldn't take it. She has a bottle and I try to give her water but she doesn't understand how to use it, she just bites it.

Gee_G

lounakin wrote: »

... (baby screaming in the background at 11:30 pm), she loves music, it calms her but whether I sing to her or put on her favourite CD it doesn't help at all. Now I only use her favourite song when she's screamed for so long nothing will calm her, she'll be sobbing for about 30 minutes so I play the song and sing to her. Still no sleep though. We are a family of musicians so I think she finds music too stimulating.
What really bothers me is the nursing to sleep thing... i know a lot of women who still do it even though their child is much older than mine, I don't understand why she doesn't want to do it. It used to be our sure-fire last resort thing.
Anyway, it's been 2 and a half hours tonight to try and put her to bed! Here's to hoping we at least get some sleep at some point!
As for the bottle: I never gave it to her it was always her dad or someone else, I wasn't here. She wouldn't take it. She has a bottle and I try to give her water but she doesn't understand how to use it, she just bites it.

Funny you say she finds music too stimulating, I find the same with the bloody mobile in the cot! Only put it on the cot a few weeks ago and he gets as high as a kite so needless to say it is now only there for show
Have you tried bringing her swimming or anything like that? To try and tire her out. Or massage?

Sorry I can't be of any help but hopefully she will just get through it herself and grow out of it soon. You are doing all you can do for the minute and you're doing great, especially on the amount of sleep you are getting. Here's hoping you get a break soon.

Good luck

lounakin

Oh the mobile!!! What a crazy idea! I have one as well, a present from my aunt but that thing would wake up a corpse! I put it on in the morning when I get her clothes. I have a other nighttime toys that do the exact opposite thing they are supposed to do.
Tiring her out used to work although it had to be the right dose, too tired is also bad. I used to have a very good routine and massage her every night. But she screams so much one the changing table now that I don't massage her any more. She hasn't been willing to be massaged in a month. She looooooves the bath (a bit stimulating though) but the water irritates her skin so I can't giver her more than one a week.
Well she's been asleep now for 30 min, hope it lasts!

Gee_G

lounakin wrote: »

Oh the mobile!!! What a crazy idea! I have one as well, a present from my aunt but that thing would wake up a corpse! I put it on in the morning when I get her clothes. I have a other nighttime toys that do the exact opposite thing they are supposed to do.
Tiring her out used to work although it had to be the right dose, too tired is also bad. I used to have a very good routine and massage her every night. But she screams so much one the changing table now that I don't massage her any more. She hasn't been willing to be massaged in a month. She looooooves the bath (a bit stimulating though) but the water irritates her skin so I can't giver her more than one a week.
Well she's been asleep now for 30 min, hope it lasts!

Water without any products irritate her skin? The poor little thing!
Get yourself to bed and take advantage!

lounakin

Gee_G wrote: »

Water without any products irritate her skin? The poor little thing!
Get yourself to bed and take advantage!

ha ha!!! That's the thing now I want to party... not go to bed! The eternal issue...
She has irritations in her armpits from the water. I don't know if the water caused it but when I was giving her baths almost every day (and drying well, adding butt cream or talk or other things I was advised) they were pretty raw and red. The disappeared when I stopped bathing her often. But don't worry, I do the snif test, she doesn't smell.

LegacyUser

Lounakin, my advice is very simple. No one seems to be getting any sleep, so just do whatever it takes for some sleep. Bring her to bed with you, nurse her as much as she wants to nurse and stay close.

Forget the sleep training, forget the separate beds, just bring your beautiful daughter to bed with you, snuggle up and nurse together.

It is most certainly a phase, but for god's sake, all your daughter wants is to be with mummy. Let her. Let her stay with you. In a week's time all will be different again.

Cuddle her, kiss her, hold her for as long as she wants.