Sleep techniques

wmpdd3

I have no real help, but what is it with Jan?

Last Jan 2011, I had a 4 month old who stopped sleeping altogether, she was fixed by March.

Last year I had a 15 month old who though her bed time was 12am till 12pm.

This year my 11 month old thinks bedtime is 12am till 12 pm.

I just cant pull pull it back. I really might be the weather! When I take him up at 8.00, he just falls asleep in his porridge.

Also my 2 have eczema, so no baths before bed but a slithering in Aveeno. The little guy was getting irritated from the heater during the night. I got a present of a lavender oil for my little girl, that used to calm her, I might try root that out again and see if it works.

dublinlady

wmpdd3 wrote: »

I have no real help, but what is it with Jan?

Last Jan 2011, I had a 4 month old who stopped sleeping altogether, she was fixed by March.

Last year I had a 15 month old who though her bed time was 12am till 12pm.

This year my 11 month old thinks bedtime is 12am till 12 pm.

I just cant pull pull it back. I really might be the weather! When I take him up at 8.00, he just falls asleep in his porridge.

Also my 2 have eczema, so no baths before bed but a slithering in Aveeno. The little guy was getting irritated from the heater during the night. I got a present of a lavender oil for my little girl, that used to calm her, I might try root that out again and see if it works.

Just as a side - u can get lavender aveeno!


My little ones sleep has been very bad and very good at different times. Controlled crying works mostly and we are hugely consistent with it with intervals of 2,4,6,8,12,18 mins. We never get past the 12. We don't pick her up when we go in - we literally go in for 2 mins sit beside her a pit our hand on her chest or arm and soothe her - sometimes touching her winds her up even more so we just verbally reassure her - then even if she's still crying after the 2 mins we leave again. She got the message after 2 days!
This only doesn't work for us if she's waking early as she is simply not tired anymore and just wants up! But by then she usually has slept from 7 til 5-5.30 straight. If she wakes earlier than that we do the controlled crying and it works. Works brilliant for naps too.
I've decided tho its impossible to figure it out in general as they are all individuals with different things going on each day and they can't tell us what! Like teething etc!

But the controlled crying taught her to self soothe and In general she gets up at 7, brekkie by half - plays til 9 - 9.30 - bottle then down til 12. Lunch, then play til 2.30 then naps til 3.30 or 4 then up , dinner at 5, bottle at 6.45 - story and bed.

When she was 8 months (is 11now) she napped 3 times - got up at 7 - nap at 8.30, nap at 1, nap at 3.30/4. Awake by 5 until 7 then bed!

pwurple

Lounakin, I've read this thread a couple of times now, and I don't know how you are still in one piece. I find a few minutes of my one crying traumatic, I think everyone does, it hits some buttons in our brains. Hours of it every day must be torture. Lack of sleep is a risk factor for PND too. If you can, bring yourself to a GP and mention it. Just in case.

Lounakin at around 8 months my son started being very difficult to get down for naps. After a lot of stress I discovered that he just wasn't tired enough!

At 8 months he'd be up around 7am and his first nap would be 11am. So around 3 hours of awake time.
He could go 3.5 or 4 hours after waking from that nap before he needed another one.

Would you try that?

littlemissfixit

I bath mine only twice a week, dont think they need anymore and its hard work on your own to bath the baby and then toddler, smell or not I stick to twice a week

Im no expert but with reading your posts I would be inclined to think its not a matter of her not being tired enough or being hungry, but more being too curious and having a fear of missing part of the action! Brace yourself and get a plan in place, you will get the better of her soon!

Im the same when they sleep, the few times they nap at the same time (2 or 3 times since I have two) I should go to sleep, but want to get things done, and in the evening, I stay up as late as I can to enjoy the me time... how contradictory!!!

lounakin

Deleted User wrote: »

Lounakin at around 8 months my son started being very difficult to get down for naps. After a lot of stress I discovered that he just wasn't tired enough!

At 8 months he'd be up around 7am and his first nap would be 11am. So around 3 hours of awake time.
He could go 3.5 or 4 hours after waking from that nap before he needed another one.

Would you try that?

We always wait until she's tired to start the process. I really think she must have hit a milestone or some kind of realisation and that's why she's being unusually difficult.
So last night she went down at midnight finally. She woke up at 4 for a feed, I went into her room and she was just sitting up in the dark (she's been doing that a lot, very creepy, she doesn't play with the few toys, she faces away from them and just sits there!), fed her, she wouldn't go back down but my partner helped put her back. I woke her up at 10:45 this morning.

CaraMay

lounakin wrote: »

So last night she went down at midnight finally.

lounakin wrote: »

I woke her up at 10:45 this morning.

Op this is why you badly need a routine. The baby is running the house (mine was too and we were banjaxed from it) and you need to take control...

Start up by having her wake up time at a time that suits the house e.g. 7.30 and no matter what time she goes to bed or what naps she gets during the day you get her up at 7.30. Her body will cop that it wont get the needed sleep by staying up til midnight and will adjust itself.

Am not trying to be hard on you but you do need to take control of this. I respectfully suggest you need a sleep doctor / nurse/ consultant. Baby will appreciate a routine and its up to you to put it in place.

lounakin

CaraMay wrote: »

Op this is why you badly need a routine. The baby is running the house (mine was too and we were banjaxed from it) and you need to take control...

Start up by having her wake up time at a time that suits the house e.g. 7.30 and no matter what time she goes to bed or what naps she gets during the day you get her up at 7.30. Her body will cop that it wont get the needed sleep by staying up til midnight and will adjust itself.

Am not trying to be hard on you but you do need to take control of this. I respectfully suggest you need a sleep doctor / nurse/ consultant. Baby will appreciate a routine and its up to you to put it in place.

If she goes on like this I will consult! I know I need a routine, but she's been so tired I decided to let her sleep. We had a perfectly fine routine in place however she is impossible to put down, it may be nap or sleep time, she doesn't go down. She spends entire days not sleeping. The routine isn't the answer to my problem, it's a consequence.

CaraMay

lounakin wrote: »

If she goes on like this I will consult! I know I need a routine, but she's been so tired I decided to let her sleep. We had a perfectly fine routine in place however she is impossible to put down, it may be nap or sleep time, she doesn't go down. She spends entire days not sleeping. The routine isn't the answer to my problem, it's a consequence.

Im not trying to get at you but you are doing herself no favours letting her sleep til 10.45. I did it so I know... Our fella was up from 4 til 6 last night (teething) and back up at 7 this morning (I was 15 mins late) and is down for his nap since 11. He can sleep til 12.15 and then from 3.30 for 45 minutes. He typically sleeps at the proper times cos he is tired at those times. Then because he is tired he has been going to bed before 9 each night since we started. I am not being a smug mammy, I am just telling what worked for us (after 13 months of hell).

wmpdd3

CaraMay wrote: »

Op this is why you badly need a routine. The baby is running the house (mine was too and we were banjaxed from it) and you need to take control...

Start up by having her wake up time at a time that suits the house e.g. 7.30 and no matter what time she goes to bed or what naps she gets during the day you get her up at 7.30. Her body will cop that it wont get the needed sleep by staying up til midnight and will adjust itself.

Am not trying to be hard on you but you do need to take control of this. I respectfully suggest you need a sleep doctor / nurse/ consultant. Baby will appreciate a routine and its up to you to put it in place.

This worked with my first but its a disaster with my second. I wake him at 8am and he just sits zoned out in the pen or high chair, he wont eat, he wont play then he'll just fall asleep, head down on the play tray!

It was 12am when he went asleep last night.

It was hilarious this morning. He was nodding off at 9 so I decided I'd bring him for a walk, I put him in the buggy beside his sister and when I got out the door he was asleep at a right angle. i had to put him back in bed.

I'm going to try opening the blind and window at 7 am tomorrow and see if I can reset his body clock.

OP, I really feel for you, I cant stand the crying, its drives me mental, let alone the fact my boobs used to ache too!

lounakin

There's something I didn't think of: i went back to work on monday for the first time and that's when she really started goong bonkers. Could she be this upset? Also we have very serious money issues and I've been very down... There has to be a link! I have very awkward work hours: 6:30 pm to 9:30 pm twice a week and that's usually down time for her and in that space she usually gets breatsmilk on tap...

Gee_G

lounakin wrote: »

There's something I didn't think of: i went back to work on monday for the first time and that's when she really started goong bonkers. Could she be this upset? Also we have very serious money issues and I've been very down... There has to be a link! I have very awkward work hours: 6:30 pm to 9:30 pm twice a week and that's usually down time for her and in that space she usually gets breatsmilk on tap...

That could be it alright, it didn't take much to knock my littLe man out of his routine so I'd Say in general it wouldn't Take much.

littlemissfixit

Sense Bens wrote: »

Lounakin, my advice is very simple. No one seems to be getting any sleep, so just do whatever it takes for some sleep. Bring her to bed with you, nurse her as much as she wants to nurse and stay close.

Forget the sleep training, forget the separate beds, just bring your beautiful daughter to bed with you, snuggle up and nurse together.

It is most certainly a phase, but for god's sake, all your daughter wants is to be with mummy. Let her. Let her stay with you. In a week's time all will be different again.

Cuddle her, kiss her, hold her for as long as she wants.

All well and good, thats what you do when baby is having a short regression in sleep or is sickly for a bit, but as Lounakin says, this is going on for weeks now and the baby doesnt even nurse to sleep anymore, neither does she sleeps in bed with her. Its only an opinion, but at this stage sleep training or re-training definately is a good idea.

littlemissfixit

lounakin wrote: »

There's something I didn't think of: i went back to work on monday for the first time and that's when she really started goong bonkers. Could she be this upset? Also we have very serious money issues and I've been very down... There has to be a link! I have very awkward work hours: 6:30 pm to 9:30 pm twice a week and that's usually down time for her and in that space she usually gets breatsmilk on tap...

Makes a lot of sens! For some reason I thought it was weeks since she slept better.

lounakin

littlemissfixit wrote: »

Makes a lot of sens! For some reason I thought it was weeks since she slept better.

Yes it's weeks but in fairness she was getting back in rhythm before i went back to work. The weeks before were hard but there was an excuse for that: we'd just come back from holidays in france where she was the centre of the attention of 15 people for 2 weeks plus she got the two upper teeth. She wasn't sleeping then because she was too excited and wanted to be with people (when i had her in the room rocking her to sleep she'd extend one arm dramatically towards the door and whine). Before the upper teeth we had the bottom teeth so it's been over 2 months of no sleep.
As for taking her to bed with me, it's not working (i'm sad about this) since she doesn't nurse to sleep and has never liked lying with us. I really have no idea why. She loves to play in our bed though. Her fav thing to do it poke us in the nose/ears/eyes, smacking and kiking us in the face, pulling my partner's armpit hairs from under his tshirt and biting our earlobes.

Loonie

My son is the same age. About 2 months ago we struggled with his sleep like this, and after a few days I realised it was because he just wasn't tired! We dropped from 3 naps to 2 and that made a huge difference. The trick is to nor let him get to tired, but tired enough. It routine at the moment is something like:

7/8 wake and breastfed (if early he usually goes back to sleep until 8 or 8.30
9 breakfast for him- porridge and fruit
11 bottle and nap (mostly weaned from breast but the morning feed) sleeps up to 90 minutes
1 lunch
3.30 bottle and nap sleeps an hour
5.30 dinner
7.30 bottle and bed

He still wakes at night but isn't fed anymore, if we have to get him up we rock him back to sleep. Also when we dropped the nap he started sleeping longer for his nap. I recommend the no cry sleep solution for a bit of advice. We are working on getting my son to settle himself using some of the techniques from it.

Mink

Oh that sounds tough OP, fair play to ya for trying all you can. You will look back on all this and not really remember it when she gets past this phase.

If I were in your shoes I'd see about contacting a baby sleep consultant (I think someone mentioned it above) and have them come to your home and actually observe what's happening. Then they can tailor the program to suit you and your baby. A friend of mine did this with her 7mth old, I think it was about 60 euro but it worked out well. Get recommendations for them or check out testimonials.

I think you need the support of someone with fresh eyes and experience who is there solely to help you. I know it's an extra expense but it might be worth it. It might give you direction on what you would need to change.

Only other thing I'd say is that when my wee man was going beserk in the cot not settling and not taking his feed even though hungry, if I distracted him with a toy that had sound and lights it was just enough that I could get a feed into him and he'd drop off a bit easier. I ended up doing this for nearly every sleep while he was teething. As soon as the tooth popped up he was like a different baby and went back to going down easily but it went on for weeks before that.

Last only other thing... I've heard other mothers saying that bringing baby to a cranial osteopath really helped.

lounakin

I'm pretty sure it wasn't her teeth... she hasn't teethed since her 4th came out. I do think me going to work really made her mad but you could literally see that when she was asleep her brain was working overtime. She was hyper all the time so putting her down was impossible and she wouldn't stay asleep. She's been getting much better though, wakes up only once but still goes down super late and wakes up early. She's getting the hang of solids and the main issue: pooping! Being breastfed she only used to poop once a week and it was liquid. Now it's different and at first she was really distresses, crying violently. This has eased off a bit. I see now so many different things were happening at once for her.
btw to the previous poster, I brought her to an osteopath before back home and she said she'd never seen such a relaxed baby, not a tension on her ... go figure!

lounakin

I spoke too fast and while we had a half-descent night (which for others would be a horrible night!) the next couple of nights were terrifying. I got to a point where I was short-tempered and angry and felt like screaming at my baby. I always thought I'd be the kind of mother who doesn't let her baby cry it out because I believe in responding to them... not by experience but because it seemed right to me at the time. But obviously 8 months of being nursed or rocked to sleep and never crying on her own was a big fail and taught her nothing. Anyway, tonight I tried the method described in this thread and it worked. I know it's only the first time I've tried it and it's probably just going to be easy tonight but it worked so well. First of all we did let her cry once, but without intervening, she cried for 2 hours straight and after showing no signs of calming down we went in and it took literally 3 hours to calm her down. I wasn't going to try that again! So I left her for 2 min then came back and 'soothed' her (she did not stop crying any time I went in), then 5, then 10, except after the 5 minutes went she already started to calm down. She was asleep before the 10 minutes were over.
I do feel terrible about letter her cry! Especially since I heard the neighbours in the corridor commenting on the cries! I feel so crap and yet... like I've won a battle. Someone reassure me that I'm doing the right thing and not scarring her for life!

Gee_G

lounakin wrote: »

I spoke too fast and while we had a half-descent night (which for others would be a horrible night!) the next couple of nights were terrifying. I got to a point where I was short-tempered and angry and felt like screaming at my baby. I always thought I'd be the kind of mother who doesn't let her baby cry it out because I believe in responding to them... not by experience but because it seemed right to me at the time. But obviously 8 months of being nursed or rocked to sleep and never crying on her own was a big fail and taught her nothing. Anyway, tonight I tried the method described in this thread and it worked. I know it's only the first time I've tried it and it's probably just going to be easy tonight but it worked so well. First of all we did let her cry once, but without intervening, she cried for 2 hours straight and after showing no signs of calming down we went in and it took literally 3 hours to calm her down. I wasn't going to try that again! So I left her for 2 min then came back and 'soothed' her (she did not stop crying any time I went in), then 5, then 10, except after the 5 minutes went she already started to calm down. She was asleep before the 10 minutes where over.
I do feel terrible about letter her cry! Especially since I heard the neighbours in the corridor commenting on the cries! I feel so crap and yet... like I've won a battle. Someone reassure me that I'm doing the right thing and not scarring her for life!

Of course you are doing the right thing.
You're doing it to help both of you because obviously the whole not sleeping thing is not suiting either of you. Don't beat yourself up about it. Just see what works for you

littlemissfixit

lounakin wrote: »

I spoke too fast and while we had a half-descent night (which for others would be a horrible night!) the next couple of nights were terrifying. I got to a point where I was short-tempered and angry and felt like screaming at my baby. I always thought I'd be the kind of mother who doesn't let her baby cry it out because I believe in responding to them... not by experience but because it seemed right to me at the time. But obviously 8 months of being nursed or rocked to sleep and never crying on her own was a big fail and taught her nothing. Anyway, tonight I tried the method described in this thread and it worked. I know it's only the first time I've tried it and it's probably just going to be easy tonight but it worked so well. First of all we did let her cry once, but without intervening, she cried for 2 hours straight and after showing no signs of calming down we went in and it took literally 3 hours to calm her down. I wasn't going to try that again! So I left her for 2 min then came back and 'soothed' her (she did not stop crying any time I went in), then 5, then 10, except after the 5 minutes went she already started to calm down. She was asleep before the 10 minutes where over.
I do feel terrible about letter her cry! Especially since I heard the neighbours in the corridor commenting on the cries! I feel so crap and yet... like I've won a battle. Someone reassure me that I'm doing the right thing and not scarring her for life!

Oh my god please dont feel bad about yourself!! We were probably all left crying a great deal as babies and we didnt turn out too bad for the majority anyway
In theory you didn't even let her cry, you just soothed her a different way than she is used to, she will get used to this new way and the beauty of it is that this way she is actually teaching herself to go to sleep, a massive step for our tiny babies!
I've done it with my two and they both go to sleep without a bleep, they even seem quite happy to be going to bed (the 8mth old anyway, the toddler started trying to resist a bit but thats just another story!). And will be doing it again when I wish to wean my boy of his night feed when I think he's ready (or when I just cant take it any longer!)
She might put up a fight the next few times who knows (I kinda doubt it she's still very young) but keep your consistancy and it'll all work out and it will be so blissful when you can put her to bed and not get yourselves upset you'll not know yourselves!

Well done you!

lounakin

Thanks for that! But the baby might be 8 months, she's a tough cookie. Still don't know what the night feeds will be like. She used to fall back asleep nursing and I'd transfer her to her bed but now every time she finishes she just starts clapping. Go figure.

lounakin

About the technique: sometimes she's not crying but whimpering... Should I still go in or let her do that for a while? Should I only keep going in when she's crying?
I'm absolutely amazed though, there is so much less crying involved then I thought! She cries 10x more when we rock her to sleep sometimes! So far I've done it 3 times and she didn't cry hard for more a couple of minutes! I guess I found the right method for her.

Xdancer

Ah lounakin I'm delighted you seem to have found a method that's working for you.

I only go in if A is actually crying.

dublinlady

Me too - if it's just whining we leave her to self soothe - she generally goes back asleep on her own, if its proper crying we go in at the intervals! We never stay with her for longer than 2 mins when we go in - she's often still crying when we leave but calmer and most times it doesn't take long for her to settle at all!
This way we so e times here her wake at 4/5 and cry for a min and then settles herself back as she knows how! So while we still waking we don't have to get out of bed etc!

The on,y part I find tricky is that she wants to wake at 6 every morn - I really wish could stretch her to seven but we so grateful if she sleeps thru til six that we don't thinks its fair to do the technique then! Still tho... That extra hr would be lovely....!!!!

lounakin

dublinlady wrote: »

Me too - if it's just whining we leave her to self soothe - she generally goes back asleep on her own, if its proper crying we go in at the intervals! We never stay with her for longer than 2 mins when we go in - she's often still crying when we leave but calmer and most times it doesn't take long for her to settle at all!
This way we so e times here her wake at 4/5 and cry for a min and then settles herself back as she knows how! So while we still waking we don't have to get out of bed etc!

The on,y part I find tricky is that she wants to wake at 6 every morn - I really wish could stretch her to seven but we so grateful if she sleeps thru til six that we don't thinks its fair to do the technique then! Still tho... That extra hr would be lovely....!!!!

We've gotten no sleep whatsoever in months so sleeping thru til 6 would be heaven! Lol! All is relative
With the technique last night she went down at 9:30 (she'd been refusing to go down earlier than 10 or 11 the last week, after an hour of rocking), woke at 2 am and then at 7! The 2 am was her usual weird thing where she refuses the boob and refuses to stay in your arms: she wants to be put down to play. But this time I let her lie in my bed and play, eventually she took a feed, then I put her back in her bed, I was ready for the technique but she never cried, just called mama a few times and fell asleep.

Xdancer

dublinlady wrote: »

The on,y part I find tricky is that she wants to wake at 6 every morn - I really wish could stretch her to seven but we so grateful if she sleeps thru til six that we don't thinks its fair to do the technique then! Still tho... That extra hr would be lovely....!!!!

DL I think your A and my A are in cahoots! My A is the exact same. Awake for the day at 6am most days.

Lounakin I hope this will be the end of your sleep issues. You really have had a tough time.
Consistency is the key. It iinitially took us about 4 nights of sticking to it and she got the message. Some babies take less or more time to realise it

lounakin

I just realised we might not be able to keep up the technique! I'm working 2 nights a week and have to leave the house at 6 pm and come back around 10 pm, so she doesn't get her last nursing session... It's only been 2 weeks... should I put her through this?

lounakin

Sorry again everyone for annoying you with this but I have a question for those who used that method:
I have tried now 4 times to put her down for a nap this way but it hasn't worked at all. She behaves very differently from night time. At night she just lies back and cries, then calms down and always ends up sleeping. During the day she stands up holding on to the crib bars and won't even sit down. Yesterday I tried for her morning nap but after 40 minutes of her not showing signs of improvement I took her out and we forfeited the nap. She had lunch. Afternoon nap was a fail but she was so tired and unable to function I put her down for a nap very late. We resume the technique for bed time and it worked.
Today same thing: no success for the morning nap so she didn't nap. After lunch she was fading, I tried again around 2pm, still no success so I used the old method and now she's asleep.
Do you think I'm compromising the method by not using it for naps?

Xdancer

It never really worked for us for daytime naps either. I would try it for up to 30 minutes and if she still wouldn't sleep, I left it.
All I can say is that once she was sleeping better at night and didn't need the technique at night as much the daytime naps kind of fell into place.