McDonald's Planning Permission - Blacklion Manor

The Durutti Column

Originally Posted by LifeBeginsAt40
And education comes from all of us. Fast food outlets outside schools are banned in other countries. Education at times involves making choices based on established research.

A few minutes online will reveal a wealth of reasons that fast food advertising has a long lasting effect on the health of many.

As others have said, the letters of objection are going in to WCC, backed up with verifiable healthcare research from far more learned people.

red_bairn wrote: »

They should follow by the Koreans' examples and setup gym equipment near residential areas, do short exercise sessions before class starts for primary and secondary school students and other various activities. Being fat is not cool there. That mindset is built into the younger generations now.

There is existing full planning permission which applies to the site McDonald's want to occupy.

It is for a health and fitness centre, two stories, apparently of 1,238 square metres overall.

So we already have permission for exactly what red_bairn is suggesting (although a commercial gym) but they want to put a junk food joint in instead!!

Are they taking the pith?

Just a point on objections, which a previous poster suggested. If you are objecting to the granting of planning permission by WCC, you must do so in a certain way, and on planning grounds. The planning dept at WCC will not pay any heed to objections on health grounds, nor are they obliged to or even permitted to. Check out the procedure here: http://www.wicklow.ie/Apps/WicklowBeta/Planning/AppComment.aspx

The grounds for objection can be, for example, the extra traffic this development would generate at a centre where there is only one entrance/exit and no chance of the so-called Blacklion Link Road being built out to Chapel Road for a long time; the congestion such traffic will cause; the added danger to children attending the three schools which will be operating immediately close by.

The junction is already unable to cope and tailbacks run back into the town in the mornings. This is now, before the secondary school and hundreds more kids flooding to the location.

Another ground for objection is whether it contravenes the Local Area Plan. On the face of it, it seems it does.

"The primary purpose of this Local Area Plan is to guide the
sustainable development and planning of the Greystones/
Delgany area."

"Blacklion:
- Promote the development and the improvement of the
local services and food shopping role of Blacklion.
- Promote the development of the educational and
community facilities role of Blacklion.
- Promote the evolution of a coherent and attractive
streetscape environment."

As Blacklion already has a large retail outlet, Lidl, and the LAP provides that there should be no more than once such in a village centre like Blacklion or Delgany, a large facility such as a drive-through McDonald's with 41 extra parking spaces should be a contravention.

It would also detract from retail business in the town centre itself, which would be a contravention of the LAP.

Finally, the proposal is presented as an amendment to the original permission for a fitness centre. But an objection could be that it is such a significant variation on the original permission that it should be refused. One way in which it is a significant variation is in adding 41 further parking places to the existing number. This is an admission that the proposal will add significant traffic volumes not provided for in the original plan. The traffic engineers will then have to re-evaluate the local infrastructure and that alone may be enough to get the plan a red thumb.

These are the sort of planning grounds which would have to be used in an objection to the application for permission. There may be more, do your research, read the LAP, inspect the plans which have now been lodged, etc. Health grounds do not apply.

The plans are here: http://www.wicklow.ie/ePlan41/FileRefDetails.aspx?file_number=138028&LASiteID=0

However, the health issue is real. Therefore, those opposed to this should be demanding of the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs, Frances Fitzgerald, that she fast-track the legislation to ban fast food outlets near schools that her department has been sitting on for the last 14 months. You could also contact the four government TDs, three FG and one Labour, in this constituency to put pressure to have this legislation in effect before the planning process is complete —then the planning application would fall by law.

You can find the minister's contact details here: http://www.francesfitzgerald.ie/p/contact-frances.html?m=1

Andrew Doyle TD (FG)
Constituency Address:
2a, The Lower Mall
Wicklow
Co. Wicklow.
Tel : 0404-66622
Email : andrew.doyle@oireachtas.ie

Anne Ferris TD (LAB)
Constituency Address:
115, Main Street
Bray
Co. Wicklow.
Tel : 01-2764699
Email : anne.ferris@oireachtas.ie

Simon Harris TD (FG)
Constituency Address:
Office Unit 4, Market Court
Main Street
Bray
Co. Wicklow.
Tel : 01-2813727
Email : simon.harris@oireachtas.ie

Billy Timmins TD (FG)
Constituency Address:
Weaver Square
Baltinglass
Co. Wicklow.
Tel : 059-6481016
Email : billy.timmins@oireachtas.ie

And get Stephen Donnelly involved too:
Stephen Donnelly TD (Ind)
Constituency Office:
Church Road (beside DART)
Greystones

Tel : 01-6184293
Email : stephen.donnelly@oireachtas.ie


The drawing as submitted by McDonald's

Detail of the drawing as submitted by McDonald's


Photo of a similar outlet submitted by McDonald's as part of their application

pixbyjohn

"The grounds for objection can be, for example, the extra traffic this development would generate at a centre where there is only one entrance/exit and no chance of the so-called Blacklion Link Road being built out to Chapel Road for a long time; the congestion such traffic will cause; the added danger to children attending the three schools which will be operating immediately close by. "

Hopefully this paragraph would not be used by people objecting to the proposed secondary school or has permission for that already been granted?

Annasopra

Just a point regarding the Local area plan - make sure you reference the existing not the draft new one

LifeBeginsAt40

pixbyjohn wrote: »

"The grounds for objection can be, for example, the extra traffic this development would generate at a centre where there is only one entrance/exit and no chance of the so-called Blacklion Link Road being built out to Chapel Road for a long time; the congestion such traffic will cause; the added danger to children attending the three schools which will be operating immediately close by. "

Hopefully this paragraph would not be used by people objecting to the proposed secondary school or has permission for that already been granted?

Permission for the new Temple Carrig school was granted in December 2012. It will be going ahead.

The Durutti Column

pixbyjohn wrote: »

"The grounds for objection can be, for example, the extra traffic this development would generate at a centre where there is only one entrance/exit and no chance of the so-called Blacklion Link Road being built out to Chapel Road for a long time; the congestion such traffic will cause; the added danger to children attending the three schools which will be operating immediately close by. "

Hopefully this paragraph would not be used by people objecting to the proposed secondary school or has permission for that already been granted?

Permission granted. School to open in 2014. Traffic capacity would be at maximum then, should have been relieved by another exit onto Chapel Road heading south past Blacklion Manor, but that is not now going to happen.

The Durutti Column

mango salsa wrote: »

Just a point regarding the Local area plan - make sure you reference the existing not the draft new one

Good point, Mango. I am confining myself to the existing LAP.

matt-dublin

Why wouldn't they get rid of the proposed planning for a fitness centre when you've a perfectly good one 5 mins away and there's another suitable building lying derelict 10 minutes away?? (Can't really include curves as its ladies only)

Isn't it obvious that the fitness business is a bit overdone in Greystones?

Druids Glen
Shoreline
Curves
Shoreline outdoors facilities

The fact that the Jackie Skelly building has been derelict for quite some time now suggests that there's no further appetite for a gym, why build another site that will remain empty.

On another note, I heard rumour that someone is planning to put a small cinema into the licenced premises in the Charlesland centre? Anyone hear that?

Ms Minnie Mouse

Too many fitness centres, not enough take aways. Probably not enough pubs either. What a terrible situation to be in!

Gordy6040

LifeBeginsAt40 wrote: »

Job creation is great, developing a McDonald's opposite the entrance to primary schools is completely irresponsible, both by McDonald's and the council. Schools encourage children to eat healthily, parents are encouraged to do the same. How is allowing a McDonald's to be built adjacent to primary schools responsible planning?

Agreed, There is no place for a McDonald's near a school. I'm not particularly interested on having one in the area but putting it besides a school & residental area seems pretty insensitive to local concerns.

Jimjay

pixbyjohn wrote: »

"The grounds for objection can be, for example, the extra traffic this development would generate at a centre where there is only one entrance/exit and no chance of the so-called Blacklion Link Road being built out to Chapel Road for a long time; the congestion such traffic will cause; the added danger to children attending the three schools which will be operating immediately close by. "

Hopefully this paragraph would not be used by people objecting to the proposed secondary school or has permission for that already been granted?

:-)
Two schools would create way more traffic than McDonald's. Going anywhere near a school during start, lunch and finish is way more dangerous traffic wise than this mcdonalds will ever be. Do you think more people will go to mcdonalds than lidl? With this in mind and the fact that objections on health ground cannot be take in to consideration I cannot see why this would be refused planning permission.

pixbyjohn

Jimjay wrote: »

:-)
Two schools would create way more traffic than McDonald's. Going anywhere near a school during start, lunch and finish is way more dangerous traffic wise than this mcdonalds will ever be. Do you think more people will go to mcdonalds than lidl? With this in mind and the fact that objections on health ground cannot be take in to consideration I cannot see why this would be refused planning permission.

And does many know that the start/finishing times at those existing schools are bound by planning permission to be staggered because of traffic considerations.
Here is an interesting planning permission granted despite the objections of 4 businesses in Greystones ( all food outlets) >>> The Mobile Pizza van has a 5 year permission to operate between 5pm to 9 pm on a normally NO PARKING spot. So there is no black and white situations when it comes to the granting of planning permissions it appears.

Charlie-Bravo

Having had a look at the plans, and disregarding the whole issue about it being beside two (soon to be three) schools, the access to and from the drive-thru across the current car park is a mess - the current entrance isn't great anyway as it is when you approach Lidl\other units). I think there is a recipe for disaster with the layout as its shown.

Go look at it, entry to it is fine leading straight to the drive-thru - then pick up your meal, drive around the Unit with your hand in the bad of chips. 1. stop at the pedestrian cross point, 2. stop and the second pedestrian cross point (eat chips), 3. drive to top of hill and Yield to traffic, 4. turn left and drive 10metres, Yield ( traffic entering the car park can progress down to Pebbles), 5. cross over to next Yield, 6. turn right to exit point of car park, 7. check for kids crossing the road, cars approaching, proceed when safe to do so...

That's some exit from the drive-thru - Better off parking and walking over TBH.

pixbyjohn

I am now thinking it is the wrong place to put a drive tru Mc Donalds.

Mullie

I for one am now dying for a burger. Its like when I watched Supersize Me. All I could think of was Big Macs for a week after.

There are a lot of comments around how inappropriate it is to have a fast food outlet near a school. There probably are better locations, but is it any more inappropriate than having a Maple Moose in the foyet of our local gym? We've learned to live with that, and on the positive side it gives us the facility to teach our kids the meaning of no.

matt-dublin

pixbyjohn, the silver Citroen wouldn't need planing permission as its not a fixed premises. It would however need a street vendor licence for Wicklow county would could limit its trading hours.

School times are adjusted by grade and the resonable amount of time children should spend in class in relation to their age not restricted by plannin permission.

With that logic Tesco wouldn't be able to offer 24 hour stores in busy locations, Greystones being a prime example when it ised to be 24 hours. They would have to request new plannin permission everytime the extend or change their opening hours for seasonal trade depending on their terms.

They can however limit the times commercial vehicles can access the sites due to noise.

pixbyjohn

matt-dublin wrote: »

School times are adjusted by grade and the resonable amount of time children should spend in class in relation to their age not restricted by plannin permission.
.

http://www.wicklow.ie/ePlan41/FileRefDetails.aspx?file_number=126589&LASiteID=0
2. In relation to access to the subject site, the existing access road serving the subject lands is proposed to serve the 16 classroom Gaelscoil, 16 classroom Educate Together school, a 750 pupil post primary school to the north (which is at pre-planning stage) and a 96 unit residential development granted permission under PPR 11/4336 to the south. In this regard, the applicant is requested to submit:

c) Details to show how the proposals for staggered opening and closing times set out in the Mobility Management Plan will be operated and maintained by two separate school bodies;
d) Revised proposals for the “New location of existing structures” which may inhibit the provision of future access to the remainder of the school campus grounds in particular the 750-pupil post primary school to the north;

matt-dublin

again only a proposal and its only a request to see the proposal of staggered times, not actually forcing them.

Youll find that the window for starting will be 8.45-9.00 which means your 750 students will still all arrive at the same 1 hour interval.

mirekb

matt-dublin wrote: »

again only a proposal and its only a request to see the proposal of staggered times, not actually forcing them.

Youll find that the window for starting will be 8.45-9.00 which means your 750 students will still all arrive at the same 1 hour interval.

The gaelscoil day runs 8.30 to 2.10.

Educate Together 9.10 to 2.50

red_bairn

mirekb wrote: »

The gaelscoil day runs 8.30 to 2.10.

Educate Together 9.10 to 2.50

What about after school activities?

Imhof Tank

matt-dublin wrote: »

With that logic Tesco wouldn't be able to offer 24 hour stores in busy locations, Greystones being a prime example when it ised to be 24 hours. They would have to request new plannin permission everytime the extend or change their opening hours for seasonal trade depending on their terms.

.

"Intensification" of an existing permitted use can require a new grant of planning permission actually. What constitutes material intensification in strict planning terms depends on the circumstances of the case.

matt-dublin

mirekb wrote: »

The gaelscoil day runs 8.30 to 2.10.

Educate Together 9.10 to 2.50

Yes so there's your hour window 8-9 where there will be 750 students trying to get into school.

cuddlycavies

Anyone would think they'd applied to build a nuclear reactor!

mirekb

matt-dublin wrote: »

Yes so there's your hour window 8-9 where there will be 750 students trying to get into school.

It'll probably be closer to 900 families once the schools are both full. Although significant amounts from both schools get the school busses. Double that once the secondary school is open.

Taltos

I know this discussion about the children is well and good, but for me - I just hate seeing companies like this roll into towns.

I know it is excessive but have a look at O'Connell street.
OK maybe they can be enforced to manage litter, but I much prefer to see stores like Delle Stelle, Homan's any number of smaller retailers rather than the likes of McD's, Burger King, Walmart...

Personally I like the green area there, think the concerns around increased traffic are more than valid, a level that is already bound to increase with the schools. In fairness now - why open a drive through - anyone with a car can just pop to Bray for a McDs if they so wish.

While change has to be welcomed I just wish our town planners would consider what it is they wish Greystones to become - know it is off topic - but first the harbour, and now this? What's next? An incinerator plant down by the wetlands? Or an Anne Summer's shop in the Meridian Center?

OK rant over, clearly I don't think this is a good idea, can only hope the power's that be think ahead and consider the type of town (village) they want here...

red_bairn

Taltos wrote: »

Personally I like the green area there, think the concerns around increased traffic are more than valid, a level that is already bound to increase with the schools. In fairness now - why open a drive through - anyone with a car can just pop to Bray for a McDs if they so wish.

While change has to be welcomed I just wish our town planners would consider what it is they wish Greystones to become - know it is off topic - but first the harbour, and now this? What's next? An incinerator plant down by the wetlands? Or an Anne Summer's shop in the Meridian Center?

Yeah, the point about traffic is quite funny when the schools will cause as much hassle, if not even more. But your point about dropping into Bray for McD's is kind of invalid because it's not a drive-thru.

Do the town planners have 'a vision' or do they just go by the book? Or does it even say in the book whether you have to have a vision? I don't know. Anybody else know what the responsibilities are for the town planner?

matt-dublin

The town planners probably only have a vision of trying to create jobs in the town and generating revenue for local businesses. Look at that horrid factory they stuck on the link road to charlesland. Probably the biggest eyesore since charlesland but there were little or no complaints.

The Bishop Basher

Bray is not a viable option. That's like shutting Tescos and touting Bray as the alternative. It's not local, it's not a drive thru and the parking is awkward at best. Many of us want to see outlets such as this in the locality and in a convenient location.

With regard to the points made about the existing schools and traffic concerns, ET was granted planning for the new building in December just gone with an additional 26 parking spaces. As this is the main basis for the current objections can I assume the most vociferous opponents raised the same objections on that application ? And if not, why not ?

If as I suspect, no objections were lodged, we have yet another example of the mounting inconsistencies in the arguments put forward by those in opposition of this development.

On another note, I find the increasing shift towards a campaign against McDonald's locating anywhere in Greystones extremely worrying. Do we want to keep all multinationals out or just a select few ? Many of us remember Greystones before it had any significant retail outlets. When Supervalue on the main street was a row of houses and Tescos was a corn field. Thankfully these companies located here and helped build the thriving town and community we have today. That doesn't stop now because we all feel it should. It will continue to evolve and the town will hopefully continue to grow and thrive with it. It's progress folks and if the people who campaigned against it all those years ago had won, many of you wouldn't have the pleasure of being part of and raising your kids in this community today. It would still be an insular village, set in it's ways, blinkered and stubbornly refusing to change as the world moves on and passes by.

There are bound to be blips along the way and this is certainly one of them. When it's all said and done we'll move on and find something else to get up in arms about. But it should be about what's good for the town, not what's good for me and mine. If I thought McDonalds would be damaging in that respect I would oppose it without question but I haven't seen it happen anywhere else i've been so I don't see it happening here.

Jimjay

I'm amazed that people think a McDonald's will create so much traffic, where are you getting your traffic stats from? I work on the road all day, if I ever go to a McDonald's drive through I very rarely see more than 1 or 2 cars in front of me and most times none. It's not some amazing magnet for cars, believe it or not people do do not flock to them on mass and I am sure more people will visit lidl and the other shops in their cars each day than mcd's. Infact I am sure the newsagent there would be delighted for the extra paper sales from mcd's customers.

matt-dublin

It just shows Emer though the arguments for it are not that strong, the arguments against it don't stack up.

Majority of the complaints noted wont get very far I wouldn't think in terms of planning. At the end of the day, who are the qualified town planners and architects? The people on this forum or the people that submitted the planning application?

LifeBeginsAt40

Why do they want an extra 41 car parking spaces then? A drive-thru with free parking only minutes away from Southern Cross, quicker to drive to it then from Bray than to walk to it from most of Greystones.

They wouldn't want to develop if it was going to see only a few cars a day. McDonald's are a very successful business, they would have done their traffic calculations believe me.

The answer then if your calculations are correct, is to save several thousand Euro and use an existing smaller empty retail unit in the high street or Tescos.

No point building a drive-thru if you correctly predict there will be hardly any cars to drive-thru.