McDonald's Planning Permission - Blacklion Manor

yoshiktk

mango salsa wrote: »

Well to a certain extent I believe it is a combination of the fault of parents, educators, planners, the childs peers and mcdonalds. I don't believe that the only people who have sole and entire responsible their parents.

I have agree and disagree with that. Parents are on the frontline if we talk about kids behavior. If parent have a strong influence on the kid, doesnt matter if its in good or bad way, kids will copy them even that they can see different behavior from teachers or friends. If the parent make the "root rotten" its hard to heal it i e the future.
The problem lies , at least in my opinion, that kids now start to lack respect for "elders" mostly thanks to their parents giving them bad examples so even with teachers trying to teach them , lets say, healthy eating it goes in the air not to their heads.
Thats where the perfect spot comes for Mc. Kids with lunch money knowing whats better for them.
To be honest i think if we talk about Mc in Greystones we shouldnt only talk about one or two aspects of it, health or traffic. We should look at it from wider perspective. Does Greystones really need fastfood from big brand company like Mc? Jobs? Boos of local economy? Competition?
As far i know Mc i would be against it. We will only gain small amount of minimal wage jobs, which in the first look can be a good idea especially in small town which needs them but in long term it wont matter so much. Why? Its simple, Mc doesnt boost local economy, all income which compared to their costs is pretty big goes outside the local market. Of course they could buy the products from near farms but usually it goes in big batch from some mass farms. Price fight with competition coukd be good for customers at first look but in long term could mean loss of jobs/closing small business thanks that them could compete with Mc on that ground.
Greystones does need some local based business not another big brand.

LifeBeginsAt40

Cheeky Chops wrote: »

You are welcome. I would recommend you contact the Minister and see what the current state of play is. I would also contact local TD's and get an official response from them.

This kind of stealth marketing, particularly targeting the 11-18 age group who will not have their parents with them when they leave the school premises, is in my opinion abhorrent. I am amazed that anyone supports a famous fast food establishment with very cheap prices opening opposite a secondary school.

I have this afternoon emailed several leading and local newspaper editors, I have emailed the health minister, the education minister, the children's minister and several local and county TDs.

I have linked to the 2011 article about proposed planning restrictions, the current planning application, this forum and the study on McDonald's and employee relations conducted by Dr Tony Royle, Management Discipline, JE Cairnes School of Business and Economics, National University of Ireland, Galway, Ireland.

Which contained the interesting fact that McDonald's is one of the world's largest toy distributors on volume. Again reinforcing the fact that McDonald's quite clearly target young children with junk food.

We shall see how far this ball will now roll.

MyPerfectCousin

You keep bringing up the toy thing and the "targeting" of kids. The toy is part of the Happy Meal. The Happy Meal and the toy itself are designed for kids aged about 2 to 8 or 9. Children that age do not independently wander into restaurants and order food for themselves. Happy Meals are bought for them by adults. So there's really no need to "think of the children!" As for the secondary school, those kids will eat chips whether they are from McDonalds or not.

Childhood obesity would still be a problem even if there were no McDonalds in the country.

I don't think this thread would even exist, let alone be the second-longest in the group, if it were Supermac's applying for planning permission in that location, or Godfather's, or a Chinese restaurant/takeaway -- all of which have very fatty menus.

It's the McDonalds name that seems to be a flashpoint. I know some have said they would object to other, non-multinational chain fast food restaurants on that site, but I don't believe it.

LifeBeginsAt40

MyPerfectCousin wrote: »

You keep bringing up the toy thing and the "targeting" of kids. The toy is part of the Happy Meal. The Happy Meal and the toy itself are designed for kids aged about 2 to 8 or 9. Children that age do not independently wander into restaurants and order food for themselves. Happy Meals are bought for them by adults. So there's really no need to "think of the children!" As for the secondary school, those kids will eat chips whether they are from McDonalds or not.

Childhood obesity would still be a problem even if there were no McDonalds in the country.

I don't think this thread would even exist, let alone be the second-longest in the group, if it were Supermac's applying for planning permission in that location, or Godfather's, or a Chinese restaurant/takeaway -- all of which have very fatty menus.

It's the McDonalds name that seems to be a flashpoint. I know some have said they would object to other, non-multinational chain fast food restaurants on that site, but I don't believe it.

The reason we mention McDonald's is.....it is McDonald's that in the instance have applied for the planning permission.

It would be misleading of me to create a post highlighting the residents of Greystones to the proposed KFC at Blacklion. Just reporting the facts as they stand.

As for childhood obesity research, I suggest a read of the following:
http://www.irishheart.ie/media/pub/factsheets/obesity.pdf

http://www.dohc.ie/publications/report_taskforce_on_obesity_es.html

LifeBeginsAt40

MyPerfectCousin wrote: »

I don't think this thread would even exist, let alone be the second-longest in the group, if it were Supermac's applying for planning permission in that location, or Godfather's, or a Chinese restaurant/takeaway -- all of which have very fatty menus.

I bring your attention to the proposals brought by the Children's Minster and Minister of Health -

http://www.independent.ie/health/health-news/no-fries-with-that-fast-food-outlets-to-be-banned-near-schools-2930735.html

As part of the Government's response, Ms Fitzgerald said she is in talks with Planning Minister Willie Penrose about overhauling planning laws to halt hot food takeaways from opening near schools.

"We are in discussions with the Department of Environment to see if our planning regulations can be changed to ensure that in decisions about the location of fast food outlets, if there is proximity to a school, that that should be a reason to think again about whether or not it should get planning permission," she said.

So you can see it is proposed government policy to object to ANY fast-food outlet.

MyPerfectCousin

LifeBeginsAt40 wrote: »

The reason we mention McDonald's is.....it is McDonald's that in the instance have applied for the planning permission.

It would be misleading of me to create a post highlighting the residents of Greystones to the proposed KFC at Blacklion. Just reporting the facts as they stand.

Pretty snarky and pointless reply. Again, McDonalds is the devil in the fight against unhealthy eating. Irish chippers are not, Chinese restaurants are not, and I don't think they would meet the same objections despite being just as unhealthy.

As for childhood obesity research, I suggest a read of the following:
http://www.irishheart.ie/media/pub/factsheets/obesity.pdf

http://www.dohc.ie/publications/report_taskforce_on_obesity_es.html

Thanks. I don't see anything in there that is inconsistent with what I said - Childhood obesity would still be a problem even if there were no McDonalds in the country.

The Bishop Basher

LifeBeginsAt40 wrote: »

I have this afternoon emailed several leading and local newspaper editors, I have emailed the health minister, the education minister, the children's minister and several local and county TDs.

I have linked to the 2011 article about proposed planning restrictions, the current planning application, this forum and the study on McDonald's and employee relations conducted by Dr Tony Royle, Management Discipline, JE Cairnes School of Business and Economics, National University of Ireland, Galway, Ireland.

Which contained the interesting fact that McDonald's is one of the world's largest toy distributors on volume. Again reinforcing the fact that McDonald's quite clearly target young children with junk food.

We shall see how far this ball will now roll.

So what have you done about the targeting of schoolkids with cheap meal deals by the other fast food outlets in the town ?

MyPerfectCousin

LifeBeginsAt40 wrote: »

So you can see it is proposed government policy to object to ANY fast-food outlet.

I don't think the objections on the ground by locals would be as consistent as this proposed policy.

The Bishop Basher

Ms Minnie Mouse wrote: »

a) I believe that outside three schools is an inappropriate site. No matter how well we bring our children up - again, this is not an issue for me and won't be for several years as my children are young primary school age and therefore I am in control of their diets - they will be attracted by bright lights. No matter how well any of us raise our children, when they are outside our control they WILL be tempted to give in to peer pressure.

I have more faith in my kids to make the right choices. They are already at that age and I know for a fact that they aren't going to spend their days sitting in McD's just because there is one up the road.

And on that note, where are the threads of idignation regarding the school specials available in the current fast food shops around the town ? They are specifically aimed at school kids with cheap deals on high fat foods. Or is it just McDonald's that people want to have a go at ?

Ms Minnie Mouse wrote: »

Yes, they may tell you when they get home that their lunch money went on a sandwich - you'll never be any the wiser (I'm using a generic 'you' here...not anyone in particular)..

They don't get money. They get a packed lunch.

Ms Minnie Mouse wrote: »

Some areas (both within and outside Ireland) have already put guidelines in place to prevent the targeting of children by fast food retailers. Concerns have been raised by government ministers over such activities. We can't all be wrong, can we?

So again, why aren't any of you targetting this practice as it exists today in the current takeaways ?

Ms Minnie Mouse wrote: »

b) I believe that the location at an already bad junction is ill-thought out. As I have stated before, I live almost within view of this junction, I have seen how bad this gets at busy periods. I have also seen youngsters, adults and a combination of the two nearly taken out by people jumping the red lights so they're not delayed getting up Windgates

So we shouldn't have McDonalds because of poor driving standards ? I would have thought this argument would be more applicable to oppose the schools located there.

Ms Minnie Mouse wrote: »

c) A full review of drainage needs to be done before the go-ahead for any more road-side development is allowed to take place. Given the situation on Friday, this is an urgent situation which needs addressing.

Agreed. But that needs to happen irrespective of any proposed development.

Ms Minnie Mouse wrote: »

d) McDonald's will be the FIRST dining option people will see when on their way in from the north of the town (this is a point I have read elsewhere which I hadn't previously considered - but feel very valid hence I'm including it on my list). Therefore, visitors are much more likely to stop there - either on their way in OR on their way out - to eat, as no-one forgets the Golden Arches and the parking is free - a facility which the in-town independent facilities are unable to offer. This money will not be supporting local business in any whichever way..

You're clutching at straws now...I regularly drive into towns I don't know and I know before I get there what i'm looking for. Sometimes it's fast food, sometimes it's a restaurant. It's not really a valid argument tbh.

Ms Minnie Mouse wrote: »

e) Do we really need more building/development at this point in time? There are other empty units available. I know the example of Bray has been cited previously in this thread - the main difference being that Bray was the redesignation of an existing building in a high street location, not the building of a purpose built facility at a small shopping parade.

Another very weak argument. Market forces take care of this. We have enough houses so should people not be allowed build if they want to ? If a private company wish to develop and have permission to do so I don't see the problem.

Cerco

McDonalds or any other fast food outlet would not open in Greystones unless they believed there was a demand for their products irrespective of how unhealthy they may be.
Take a look into any McDonalds outlet and you will see parents/adults with large groups of children. In my opinion McDonalds is seen as a treat by parents for their children. I agree with others here that is the responsibility of parents to educate themselves on the nutritional aspects of their child's food. In the final analysis money spent in these outlets mainly comes from parents.

Ms Minnie Mouse

Swanner - as a matter of interest (genuine interest) - how many of the other schools in Greystones have - on their only access route - a fast food restaurant, open from breakfast until late night?

I don't think we're going to agree on this subject - which is fine, life would be boring if we all agreed on everything.

Where I work (not in Greystones, I might add, but in a fairly normal area not far away) - every lunch hour the take-aways are full of school children. To the extent that many have signs up stating that not more than x number of children are allowed at one time. Many children are simply given money, not a packed lunch.

In relation to current school specials - I can't comment on this. I'm not often in the takeaways in town so can't say I've observed same. I do, however, think it's quite a dubious practice! This does, however, show that there is a market for lunch menus for school kids - if there wasn't, there wouldn't be any 'school specials' - would there!

I don't believe that any Drive-Thru outfit can offer improvement to existing traffic problems. I don't particularly relish the thought of an increase of traffic, or indeed traffic noise, a few hundred yards from my home. Nor do I look forward to rush hour times and an extra wait at the lights but hey, that's my issue - won't expect anyone else to be concerned about such issues faced by local residents! Poor driving standards is another subject for another day - on a very different thread...!

I appreciate you believe my arguments are weak - as I do many of yours. This is why debate is a good thing - different people have different points of view and decisions that affect the community have to be based on as many different views as possible.

LifeBeginsAt40

MyPerfectCousin wrote: »

Pretty snarky and pointless reply. Again, McDonalds is the devil in the fight against unhealthy eating. Irish chippers are not, Chinese restaurants are not, and I don't think they would meet the same objections despite being just as unhealthy.



Thanks. I don't see anything in there that is inconsistent with what I said - Childhood obesity would still be a problem even if there were no McDonalds in the country.

Re your last paragraph - based on what research? The number of obese children in Ireland is rising, fact, as is the number of McDonald's outlets in Co Wicklow (to name the current subject of my OP).

No one has applied for planning permission for a chipper or chinese takeaway right outside our local school.
If a chipper wanted to open at the gates of another Greystones school I would hope concerned local parents would object to that, through the official channels.

I'm objecting to what is potentially happening on my doorstep, by McDonald's and what will affect my children, the problem with that is?

LifeBeginsAt40

MyPerfectCousin wrote: »

You keep bringing up the toy thing and the "targeting" of kids. The toy is part of the Happy Meal. The Happy Meal and the toy itself are designed for kids aged about 2 to 8 or 9. Children that age do not independently wander into restaurants and order food for themselves.

Every morning I see children of age 8-9 walking to school with their mates, with no adults in tow. Not my issue, as long as those kids stay safe crossing the road and arrive on time.

The proposed development would be at the gates of THREE schools, that's 2 primary and 1 secondary. The age range would therefore be from 5 to 15+

Let's not get picky because no one saw a 9 yr old in a McDonald's last week. Build it and they will come. Sadly this school gate temptation can lead to an increase of childhood obesity, diabetes and other diet related issues. What is wrong with siting the McDonald's away from the gates of 3 schools?

Are the people in favour of McDonald's at this location actually in favour encouraging 5-15 year olds from easting fast-food as part of their staple diet?

Trish171

Heard about the recent application for a Mcdonalds in Greystones, in my opinion its a great idea. With shopping centres such as Dundrum Shopping Centre and Bridgewater, Greystones has become quiet and has lost its "buzz" it had years ago. I agree with Mcdonalds not being healthy for children, but educate together is a primary school where most parents go to collect their children from school. This means that there would be no opportunity for children to go into Mcdonalds to get some food. If their parents decide to bring the children in then thats up to them. As for secondary school students they are mature enough to choose between a salad or a burger. Mcdonalds is not just burgers and chips, it has salads and wraps also? They are healthy?

The Bishop Basher

LifeBeginsAt40 wrote: »

Are the people in favour of McDonald's at this location actually in favour encouraging 5-15 year olds from easting fast-food as part of their staple diet?

OK. you're getting ridiculous now.

Look, it's simple. There is such a thing as personal choice and responsability. Most of us can find a healthy balance and teach our kids to do the same. The fact that a McD's is there will not compel us to walk in everytime we pass. It's just nice to have the choice when we feel like it.

You obviously feel the need to start a personal crusade to protect the children of Blacklion. If your crusade involved the wider community it might have more credence but you have been very clear that you only worry about your own door step.

Your a man on a mission and good luck to you. I just feel that you are misguided in your views to the detriment of personal freedom and choice.

MyPerfectCousin

LifeBeginsAt40 wrote: »

Re your last paragraph - based on what research? The number of obese children in Ireland is rising, fact, as is the number of McDonald's outlets in Co Wicklow (to name the current subject of my OP).

I don't think you're reading my comments. I don't disagree that obesity and child obesity is a problem, or that it is growing. I said that it would still be a problem and it would still be growing even if there weren't any McDonalds in the country.

There are only about 80 McD's in Ireland. There are hundreds of chippers, pizza places and other forms of fast food restaurants. McDonalds is a drop in the bucket in terms of the nation's food consumption. But it is an easy target for lazy campaigners.

No one has applied for planning permission for a chipper or chinese takeaway right outside our local school.
If a chipper wanted to open at the gates of another Greystones school I would hope concerned local parents would object to that, through the official channels.

I'm objecting to what is potentially happening on my doorstep, by McDonald's and what will affect my children, the problem with that is?

Nothing.

I just stated my opinion that I don't believe there would be much (if any) actual objection to a non-McDonalds locating there, and that it is in fact the name and brand of this one company that is so objectionable and I think it's hypocritical. You say you'd object to a chipper, but I think if you actually did you would be alone. Just think of the threads on this very forum about who has the best chips in Greystones. Think about the romantic/nostalgic national attachment to the Tayto brand of salty fat products. Unhealthy eating is a big problem and getting worse. McDonalds is not the cause, it's a symptom. Human behaviours are the cause.

repsol

MyPerfectCousin wrote: »

You keep bringing up the toy thing and the "targeting" of kids. The toy is part of the Happy Meal. The Happy Meal and the toy itself are designed for kids aged about 2 to 8 or 9. Children that age do not independently wander into restaurants and order food for themselves. Happy Meals are bought for them by adults. So there's really no need to "think of the children!" As for the secondary school, those kids will eat chips whether they are from McDonalds or not.

Childhood obesity would still be a problem even if there were no McDonalds in the country.

I don't think this thread would even exist, let alone be the second-longest in the group, if it were Supermac's applying for planning permission in that location, or Godfather's, or a Chinese restaurant/takeaway -- all of which have very fatty menus.

It's the McDonalds name that seems to be a flashpoint. I know some have said they would object to other, non-multinational chain fast food restaurants on that site, but I don't believe it.

There are loads of kids in the school near me who pass the McDonalds and go into the Chinese to buy 3 in 1 trays of curry and chips which is no better than
McDonalds food.They can go to the chipper also.They are shoveling sweets and bars and cans of Coke down their throats and approx half over the age of 14 are smoking.The reason is PARENTS who are too lazy/busy to make a nutritious lunch and would rather throw a tenner at the kids (having no control of how it is spent).My school was next door to a pub, with 2 chippers opposite but it was not an issue as 99% of us brought a packed lunch.

MyPerfectCousin

LifeBeginsAt40 wrote: »

Every morning I see children of age 8-9 walking to school with their mates, with no adults in tow. Not my issue, as long as those kids stay safe crossing the road and arrive on time.

The proposed development would be at the gates of THREE schools, that's 2 primary and 1 secondary. The age range would therefore be from 5 to 15+

Let's not get picky because no one saw a 9 yr old in a McDonald's last week. Build it and they will come. Sadly this school gate temptation can lead to an increase of childhood obesity, diabetes and other diet related issues. What is wrong with siting the McDonald's away from the gates of 3 schools?

I get that it's not an ideal location from a parent's perspective, but I just don't think it's that big a deal. I agree with the people who have made arguments against it being a big deal -- those who cited personal/parental responsibility, giving your child a packed lunch instead of cash, and most of all, teaching your child that fast food is unhealthy so it is best to only have it once in a while as a treat.

Are the people in favour of McDonald's at this location actually in favour encouraging 5-15 year olds from easting fast-food as part of their staple diet?

Quite silly stuff here and I wonder if you always view the world in black and white.

Eponymous

LifeBeginsAt40 wrote: »

Are the people in favour of McDonald's at this location actually in favour encouraging 5-15 year olds from easting fast-food as part of their staple diet?

....And with this the thread has jumped the shark.

Fact is, McDonald's thrives not because everyone goes in every day, but because a lot of people go sometimes.

Carry on with your crusade. I hope you succeed. Maybe it'll open closer to us. I think we can handle it.

mirekb

For me the argument is about the questionable ethics of the McDonalds corporation, their lack of environmental awareness, their (in some franchises) reputation for bad treatment of their staff and the dubious quality of their food.


I don't like the homogenisation aspect to it either.

yoshiktk

repsol wrote: »

There are loads of kids in the school near me who pass the McDonalds and go into the Chinese to buy 3 in 1 trays of curry and chips which is no better than
McDonalds food.They can go to the chipper also.They are shoveling sweets and bars and cans of Coke down their throats and approx half over the age of 14 are smoking.The reason is PARENTS who are too lazy/busy to make a nutritious lunch and would rather throw a tenner at the kids (having no control of how it is spent).My school was next door to a pub, with 2 chippers opposite but it was not an issue as 99% of us brought a packed lunch.

Thats the problem. If the parents are to lazy to do their own dinner no wonder that kids do the same. Saying that they are being to busy is a cheap excuse. How much time does making lunch takes ? 10 minutes? With the average 6hours work day its not a lot of time. They are just to lazy plus a lot of them doesnt care, just look how many ppl is xxxxl plus size in Ireland.

Annasopra

yoshiktk wrote: »

Thats the problem. If the parents are to lazy to do their own dinner no wonder that kids do the same. Saying that they are being to busy is a cheap excuse. How much time does making lunch takes ? 10 minutes? With the average 6hours work day its not a lot of time. They are just to lazy plus a lot of them doesnt care, just look how many ppl is xxxxl plus size in Ireland.

Yeah maybe but then a lot of people work maybe 7/8 hour days plus an hour commute either side so your theories don't really hold up and calling people lazy because they are tired after leaving home at 8am and returning at 6pm is very judgemental

Cheeky Chops

Have any of you when growing up lived in towns where there was a McDonalds? The difference to a chipper or chinese takeaway is that it is a restaurant and you can sit in there. We used to hang out there all the time especially when it was a climate like this where it rained and there was nowhere to go. The food was an afterthought but then became a habit. I had a great attitude to food but I wanted to hang out with my mates and then by default I got into eating burgers and chips regularly. Not forgetting the large colas.

The idea of having a fast food restaurant in the locale of 3 schools, in the view of classroom windows is despicable. My daughter will go to the new school. I asked her what she thought and she said it was crazy. BUT then she said what do I do if all my friends go there to hang out after school? I don't want to be left out. Now I get that. I'm not so old as too not remember how important it is to hang out with your friends.

How can anyone advocate a fast food restaurant located opposite to not one but 3 schools when medical experts from the UK to Oz to the US are recommending fast food free zones around schools? This is an unnecessary addition to this location and I am truly astounded that posters here are going against all the evidence - this is a bad bad idea.

LEIN

Guys, please try not to get personal.

It has been a great clean debate, lets keep it that way

LEIN

Pic has been removed. Please use the report function if you take a dislike to a post.

yoshiktk

mango salsa wrote: »

Yeah maybe but then a lot of people work maybe 7/8 hour days plus an hour commute either side so your theories don't really hold up and calling people lazy because they are tired after leaving home at 8am and returning at 6pm is very judgemental

So now imagine ppl working 12 hours a day, six days in a week, leaving home at 7am and coming back around 8pm. Thats how my parents worked for more than 10 years, of corse they were tired but still had time and a little of strength to do dinner/lunch/etc for their kids because they knew that it meant a lot for them. So maybe yes my judgement can be harsh but it comes from expierence that there should be always time for kids in many ways. Now ppl lack it.
Sorry but ill still say that ppl now are lazy compared to our parents/grandparents. Few hours of work and we are tired so hard that we cannot spend 10minutes on doing our kids lunch? Give me a break but thats bs.

Cheeky Chops

yoshiktk wrote: »

So now imagine ppl working 12 hours a day, six days in a week, leaving home at 7am and coming back around 8pm. Thats how my parents worked for more than 10 years, of corse they were tired but still had time and a little of strength to do dinner/lunch/etc for their kids because they knew that it meant a lot for them. So maybe yes my judgement can be harsh but it comes from expierence that there should be always time for kids in many ways. Now ppl lack it.
Sorry but ill still say that ppl now are lazy compared to our parents/grandparents. Few hours of work and we are tired so hard that we cannot spend 10minutes on doing our kids lunch? Give me a break but thats bs.

This is a silly argument. It is not about doing our kids lunches and by this age they do their own anyway. It's about walking out of school and seeing the magic M inviting you and your mates in for a chat and a euro burger or chips washed down with a large coke. I know I would have been tempted at age 14/15.

Eponymous

mango salsa wrote: »

Yeah maybe but then a lot of people work maybe 7/8 hour days plus an hour commute either side so your theories don't really hold up and calling people lazy because they are tired after leaving home at 8am and returning at 6pm is very judgemental

Yes, much better to spend the time you might have made a lunch in arguing on here about a fast food outlet for the good of their waistline. Better to let the kids have a tenner for their lunch, but not to actually have somewhere to spend it, apart from sweet shops or deli counters.

Any thoughts on the kids weilding Insomnia coffees on the morning Darts? (Or are they just doing it to troll Blandpebbles in real life)

Cheeky Chops

Eponymous wrote: »

Yes, much better to spend the time you might have made a lunch in arguing on here about a fast food outlet for the good of their waistline. Better to let the kids have a tenner for their lunch, but not to actually have somewhere to spend it, apart from sweet shops or deli counters.

Any thoughts on the kids weilding Insomnia coffees on the morning Darts? (Or are they just doing it to troll Blandpebbles in real life)

Firstly as I have said most kids make their own lunches over the age of 9. I have a fridge with lunch food, a cupboard for other stuff and a fruit bowl. Lunch is made from this.

Who in the real world gives their kid a tenner for lunch? I wouldn't spend that on my own lunch. Do you guys have children? And what age are you talking about them having coffee? Most kids hate coffee until they are late teens.

yoshiktk

Cheeky Chops wrote: »

This is a silly argument. It is not about doing our kids lunches and by this age they do their own anyway. It's about walking out of school and seeing the magic M inviting you and your mates in for a chat and a euro burger or chips washed down with a large coke. I know I would have been tempted at age 14/15.

If showing the kids example of proper behavior is a silly argument i cant comment it..
Kids gonna be tempted to go there, its problem we all agree but if parents will take time to show them good routime with home food less kids would go there on daily basis.