Why do people hate Jews?

Yitzhak Rabin

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

I'm just skim-reading this thread but is Siuin seriously suggesting that he\she finds the anti-semitism in Ireland so bad that they are actively trying to leave? Jews are a non-issue here. Barely anybody outside Portobello and Cork knows any Jews to develop an opinion either way. What a load of bollocks. Also, not agreeing with Israel's policy towards Palestine does not equal anti-Semitism.

People don't have to know Jews to have a negative opinion on them. There is a disproportionate interest in the Israeli/Palestinian conflict however. Much moreso than in other countries. Perhaps it's because Irish people can see similarities with the previous conflict in NI, but there is definitely a huge interest in the topic.

Take for example the conflict in Sudan. There was an actual genocide going on there, and it was one that Irish people should have shown a much greater interest in, given the Defence Forces deployed to tChad in order to protect the refugees from further attacks from the genocidal janjaweed militias. Yet it received comparably much less coverage.

I think siuin is being over-dramatic in saying that they are planning on leaving Ireland due to anti-semitism. However one thing I'm sure they have experienced is once they let people know they are Jewish, the conversation will eventually shift to the ME conflict, and people will want to know where they stand on the issue.

PhlegmyMoses

Siuin wrote: »

Are you Jewish? Because unless you have actually experienced life as a Jew in Ireland, I really don't feel that you have the right to refute my opinion and personal experiences here.

No, I'm not but I've never heard a person make a derogatory comment in a serious manner about Jews. I've heard mouth-breathers come out with horribly racist comments about black people, Polish, the English, Asians but never about Jews. If it was in any way prevalent, we would hear these comments as frequently as we hear the comments about black people.

And I'm not sure why I should accept your personal anecdotes just because you are Jewish. I have no idea about your personality. You could be extremely sensitive and\or a complete crazy person who is looking for perceived sleights. You could also be normal and have been unlucky enough to encounter some of the few people who have an opinion on Jews either way. Would you say that other Jewish people share your opinions on this country's people? I find your comments extremely offensive, btw, as I feel that you are generalising a nation, something that you seem to have a problem with when it goes the other way.

This country has little to no experience of jews. We must be one of the only countries in Europe that has not had a significant jewish community throughout the 20th century. If you think that anti-Semtism is rife here, considering nobody here gives a second thought to Judaism, then God forbid if you lived anywhere other than Israel.

I'm lost- you believe that Israel's policy towards Palestine is anti-Semitic...? Explain?

Have a read of my post again. That's not what I said.

My name is URL

Siuin wrote: »

I'm lost- you believe that Israel's policy towards Palestine is anti-Semitic...? Explain?

I'm pretty sure he meant that being opposed to Israeli policy isn't necessarily an indicator of antisemitism, as much as some people would like to believe otherwise.

Siuin

My name is URL wrote: »

I'm pretty sure he meant that being opposed to Israeli policy isn't necessarily an indicator of antisemitism, as much as some people would like to believe otherwise.

That's what he was trying to say? Rather poorly worded, but I would agree. However at the same time I think there's a lot to be said in terms of proportionality...

PhlegmyMoses

Yitzhak Rabin wrote: »

Perhaps it's because Irish people can see similarities with the previous conflict in NI, but there is definitely a huge interest in the topic.

Nail on the head. BTW, I side with nobody in that cluster**** of a situation. It's horrible for all involved.

Nodin

Siuin wrote: »

.....
I'm lost- you believe that Israel's policy towards Palestine is anti-Semitic...? Explain?

They didn't say that.

Siuin wrote: »

.....
Once again- if an Irish person moved to the US, Australia or Britain and wanted to join their armies, .....

You haven't seen a fair few threads on the subject here then. You'll also find that Israels colonial era is on-going.

Nodin

Siuin wrote: »

That's what he was trying to say? Rather poorly worded, ........

Also, not agreeing with Israel's policy towards Palestine does not equal anti-Semitism.

It's as clear as can be.

Miss Lockhart

Yitzhak Rabin wrote: »

People don't have to know Jews to have a negative opinion on them. There is a disproportionate interest in the Israeli/Palestinian conflict however. Much moreso than in other countries. Perhaps it's because Irish people can see similarities with the previous conflict in NI, but there is definitely a huge interest in the topic.

Take for example the conflict in Sudan. There was an actual genocide going on there, and it was one that Irish people should have shown a much greater interest in, given the Defence Forces deployed to tChad in order to protect the refugees from further attacks from the genocidal janjaweed militias. Yet it received comparably much less coverage.

I think siuin is being over-dramatic in saying that they are planning on leaving Ireland due to anti-semitism. However one thing I'm sure they have experienced is once they let people know they are Jewish, the conversation will eventually shift to the ME conflict, and people will want to know where they stand on the issue.

I agree with a lot of what you say, but I think that there is similar responses to many other issues in Ireland.

For example, if you mention you are American, conversation will often turn to American policy - even more so when the very unpopular Bush was in power.

Also, I think for a lot of people, but by no means all, the interest in the behaviour of Israel is because it is the actions of a supposedly democratic and developed nation that people are struggling to comprehend. As is the case with the problem many people have with the behaviour of America and Britain in certain conflicts. I don't think you can compare people's interest in the misconduct of a "first world" country with the misconduct of a "third world" country.

Siuin

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

No, I'm not but I've never heard a person make a derogatory comment in a serious manner about Jews. I've heard mouth-breathers come out with horribly racist comments about black people, Polish, the English, Asians but never about Jews. If it was in any way prevalent, we would hear these comments as frequently as we hear the comments about black people.

And I'm not sure why I should accept your personal anecdotes just because you are Jewish. I have no idea about your personality. You could be extremely sensitive and\or a complete crazy person who is looking for perceived sleights. You could also be normal and have been unlucky enough to encounter some of the few people who have an opinion on Jews either way. Would you say that other Jewish people share your opinions on this country's people? I find your comments extremely offensive, btw, as I feel that you are generalising a nation, something that you seem to have a problem with when it goes the other way.

This country has little to no experience of jews. We must be one of the only countries in Europe that has not had a significant jewish community throughout the 20th century. If you think that anti-Semtism is rife here, considering nobody here gives a second thought to Judaism, then God forbid if you lived anywhere other than Israel.

For a country which has had such little experience of Jews, it has a very embarrassing history of how they have dealt with the Jewish community. I never said antisemitism is rife and would kindly suggest that you refrain from putting words in my mouth. I am speaking from my experiences and my experiences alone, and feel that a great deal of people I have encountered have had negative reactions to discovering that I am Jewish- from extremely inappropriate jokes (being the most common reaction) to blatant stereotyping. You may not have encountered such comments since the Jewish community here is substantially smaller than the black/Polish communities, but I most definitely have.

Toby Take a Bow

Siuin wrote: »

Tbh I think any attempts to say that antisemitism is a result of Israel's actions and/or existence is basically BS given that antisemitism itself predates the state's existence.

Not necessarily. Surely you could have two separate examples of anti-semitism, one arising in Europe (for example) in the Middle Ages and then another arising in the Middle East (for example) both being caused or related to separate incidents.

Siuin wrote: »

Are you Jewish? Because unless you have actually experienced life as a Jew in Ireland, I really don't feel that you have the right to refute my opinion and personal experiences here.

Not directed at me, but surely an objective overview of the facts of anti-semitism in Ireland would be better than subjective anecdotal evidence? Especially if you're claiming that someone like Andy!! is actually representative of the majority of Irish thinking on the matter.

Siuin

Toby Take a Bow wrote: »

Not necessarily. Surely you could have two separate examples of anti-semitism, one arising in Europe (for example) in the Middle Ages and then another arising in the Middle East (for example) both being caused or related to separate incidents.

I think that there are certain people (like Andy!!) who abuse Israel's actions to support their own personal antisemitic beliefs. However, the creation of Israel did not 'create' antisemitism.

Toby Take a Bow wrote: »

Not directed at me, but surely an objective overview of the facts of anti-semitism in Ireland would be better than subjective anecdotal evidence? Especially if you're claiming that someone like Andy!! is actually representative of the majority of Irish thinking on the matter.

I'm one person, therefore I can't speak for everyone else's experiences. From the beginning I stressed that I can only speak for myself- perhaps there are Irish Jews who would disagree with me, but these are my own feelings on the subject.

Madam_X

Joshua J wrote: »

Aren't you the poster who is first to jump in when you see generalisations. Guess it's alright as long as you agree with them isn't it?. That is quite telling alright.

Or maybe you're just lashing out, due to being angry, hate-filled person.

Am I doing this right?.

How is it a generalisation to say there is blatant anti semitic sentiment on the Conspiracy Theories forum? There is. It doesn't mean I think everyone who posts to the Conspiracy Theories forum is anti semitic - that would be an unreasonable generalisation.
What's your view on Jews?

PhlegmyMoses

Siuin wrote: »

For a country which has had such little experience of Jews, it has a very embarrassing history of how they have dealt with the Jewish community. I never said antisemitism is rife and would kindly suggest that you refrain from putting words in my mouth. I am speaking from my experiences and my experiences alone, and feel that a great deal of people I have encountered have had negative reactions to discovering that I am Jewish- from extremely inappropriate jokes (being the most common reaction) to blatant stereotyping. You may not have encountered such comments since the Jewish community here is substantially smaller than the black/Polish communities, but I most definitely have.

I'm going to presume that you are talking about the whole not letting Jews into this country during WWII thing in your first sentence. I'm not getting into that, at all. I was a half-century away from being born at that stage.

I am not putting words in your mouth, you said that a great deal of people in this country have offended you by their negative reactions to finding out that you are Jewish. We can maybe get into how to quantify the word "rife" but I would suggest that if you are having this problem with a great deal of people, it is logical for me to suggest that it is rife.

I am also struggling to buy into your experiences, not that you have to convince me. I'm thinking that we may have a different idea of what is an offensive comment. I'm guessing some of the jokes and reactions that you get are to do with money, the big nose stereotype etc. Whilst I don't condone them, I would not suggest that they are indicative of an anti-semitic person. A bit of an idiot, lacking in cultural education due to never being around Jews, but not inherently prejudice against Jews. It's a bit like when I go away and people are surprised if I refuse a drink. Dem Oirish love the sauce. Borderline alcoholics. They're not being offensive, just a bit moronic.

My over-arching point is that the Irish have no experiences to distort and over-exaggerate to create any genuine hatred of the Jewish people/

Anyway, it's grand, if you want to leave this country because of your experiences, then fire away

ejmaztec

biko wrote: »

The Romans actually killed Jesus (if he even existed) and yet no-one hates the Romans.

Here we go again.

GetInTheHole!

Siuin wrote: »

Are you Jewish? Because unless you have actually experienced life as a Jew in Ireland, I really don't feel that you have the right to refute my opinion and personal experiences here.

Okay then.. So now the 4million odd people in this country that are not Jewish now do not have any right to refute your opinion on what according to you actually takes place in this country??

And if people do refute your opinion - what then? Does that make them anti-semitic??

This just goes from bad to worse...

Toby Take a Bow

Siuin wrote: »

I think that there are certain people (like Andy!!) who abuse Israel's actions to support their own personal antisemitic beliefs. However, the creation of Israel did not 'create' antisemitism.

I'd agree that Israel didn't 'create' anti-semitism, but any widespread hatred of a particular group or religion doesn't necessarily have to have one event which causes these feelings. Different events can cause outbreaks of it over time.

Siuin wrote: »

I'm one person, therefore I can't speak for everyone else's experiences. From the beginning I stressed that I can only speak for myself- perhaps there are Irish Jews who would disagree with me, but these are my own feelings on the subject.

I was really calling attention to your opinion that non-Jewish people shouldn't comment on examples of anti-semitism in Ireland which isn't very helpful, whether in real life or on the internet.

Duckworth_Luas

Ghandee wrote: »

Ah.....

Oh it was a joke.

Penny drops.

Wouldn't hit the floor with any covetous Jews about!

Madam_X

ejmaztec wrote: »

Here we go again.

All atheists are evil and smug and rob children's communion money. In fairness, you seem as obsessed with finding atheist posts as some atheists (or whatever) are with moaning about religion.

dlofnep

The Jews - A great bunch of lads.

JustinDee

Madam_X wrote: »

How is it a generalisation to say there is blatant anti semitic sentiment on the Conspiracy Theories forum? There is. It doesn't mean I think everyone who posts to the Conspiracy Theories forum is anti semitic - that would be an unreasonable generalisation.
What's your view on Jews?

There isn't. Just a small number of repetitive wallies who think the Zionists are going to take over the world and that they are behind everything that goes belly-up in the world. All very subjective and wholly unqualified rubbish really and based on cherry-picked internet surfing.

Gummy Panda

Madam_X wrote: »

All atheists are evil and smug and rob children's communion money. In fairness, you seem as obsessed with finding atheist posts as some atheists (or whatever) are with moaning about religion.

Biko post was more agnostic. I know this because he drinks Dr Pepper. Is it a root beer or a cola? A true agnostic drink.

books4sale

Superman exists.

Seen pictures of him, he's been on telly and all.

..... just like Jesus.

Joshua J

Madam_X wrote: »

How is it a generalisation to say there is blatant anti semitic sentiment on the Conspiracy Theories forum? There is. It doesn't mean I think everyone who posts to the Conspiracy Theories forum is anti semitic - that would be an unreasonable generalisation.
What's your view on Jews?

Read the OP again and say it's not a generalisation, that's what I was referring to in my post which you quoted. Then link me to the posts in the forum "Jam-packed" with anti-semitisim which you feel fit the bill.

You're just going off on a rant because you're anti-CT.

To answer you're question, I don't think I've ever met one, maybe I have I used to live in Fallowfield in Manchester next to a synaguoge and worked close by. Why do you ask?.

ejmaztec

Madam_X wrote: »

All atheists are evil and smug and rob children's communion money. In fairness, you seem as obsessed with finding atheist posts as some atheists (or whatever) are with moaning about religion.

Not obsessed, just bored at this stage. I couldn't give a toss what people believe or don't believe in, I've just got a thing about avoiding boredom wherever possible.

Joshua J

JustinDee wrote: »

There isn't. Just a small number of repetitive wallies who think the Zionists are going to take over the world and that they are behind everything that goes belly-up in the world. All very subjective and wholly unqualified rubbish really and based on cherry-picked internet surfing.

Lol the irony, i feel persecuted now.

Siuin

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

I'm going to presume that you are talking about the whole not letting Jews into this country during WWII thing in your first sentence. I'm not getting into that, at all. I was a half-century away from being born at that stage.

am not putting words in your mouth, you said that a great deal of people in this country have offended you by their negative reactions to finding out that you are Jewish. We can maybe get into how to quantify the word "rife" but I would suggest that if you are having this problem with a great deal of people, it is logical for me to suggest that it is rife.

I am also struggling to buy into your experiences, not that you have to convince me. I'm thinking that we may have a different idea of what is an offensive comment. I'm guessing some of the jokes and reactions that you get are to do with money, the big nose stereotype etc. Whilst I don't condone them, I would not suggest that they are indicative of an anti-semitic person. A bit of an idiot, lacking in cultural education due to never being around Jews, but not inherently prejudice against Jews. It's a bit like when I go away and people are surprised if I refuse a drink. Dem Oirish love the sauce. Borderline alcoholics. They're not being offensive, just a bit moronic.

My over-arching point is that the Irish have no experiences to distort and over-exaggerate to create any genuine hatred of the Jewish people/

Anyway, it's grand, if you want to leave this country because of your experiences, then fire away

I'm also talking about the Limerick Pogroms, TD Oliver Flanagan's declaration that the Irish should be "routing the Jews out of the country" during WWII, the Department of Justice's lame attempts to make up excuses for not allowing Jews into Ireland during the Holocaust AFTER the end of WWII when knowledge of the genocide of Jews was widely known, De Valera passing on his condolences upon the death of Hitler and the more recent incidents of antisemitism I have seen my friends and family encounter- refusal of membership to gold clubs, planting fake explosive devices and various other disgusting items around the synagogue, having an endless barrage of comments about Jewish misers, Jewish noses, Jewish hair, etc throughout my childhood and well into college- hell, I was even on a date lately where the guy, upon hearing I was Jewish, slid a penny across the table and after a moment retracted it and asked "are you SURE you're a Jew?" -- sorry if antisemitism hasn't exactly parked itself outside your doorstep, but I assure you it's there.

GetInTheHole! wrote: »

Okay then.. So now the 4million odd people in this country that are not Jewish now do not have any right to refute your opinion on what according to you actually takes place in this country??

And if people do refute your opinion - what then? Does that make them anti-semitic??

This just goes from bad to worse...

People can disagree with me, but they can't exactly negate what I myself have experienced. I just don't see how they can have any authority on the matter given that they do not know what it is to be Jewish in Ireland.

Joe prim

I like most Jews, except the Unionist ones up North, yes... I hate Orange Jews----I'll get me coat.

kowloon

r3nu4l wrote: »

Andy!! won't be replying here for a while, he's on a break from the site.

A case of Jewidicious moderation.

He's clearly suffering persecution from some sort of Jewish-Moderator conspiracy. They run the internet y'know.

Okay, I'll leave quietly...

PhlegmyMoses

Siuin wrote: »

I'm also talking about the Limerick Pogroms, TD Oliver Flanagan's declaration that the Irish should be "routing the Jews out of the country" during WWII, the Department of Justice's lame attempts to make up excuses for not allowing Jews into Ireland during the Holocaust AFTER the end of WWII when knowledge of the genocide of Jews was widely known, De Valera passing on his condolences upon the death of Hitler and the more recent incidents of antisemitism I have seen my friends and family encounter- refusal of membership to gold clubs, planting fake explosive devices and various other disgusting items around the synagogue, having an endless barrage of comments about Jewish misers, Jewish noses, Jewish hair, etc throughout my childhood and well into college- hell, I was even on a date lately where the guy, upon hearing I was Jewish, slid a penny across the table and after a moment retracted it and asked "are you SURE you're a Jew?" -- sorry if antisemitism hasn't exactly parked itself outside your doorstep, but I assure you it's there.

So basically, a load of stuff that happened over 50 years ago and a few personal anecdotes about meeting some dickheads that made jokes and you're ready to leave this country. I was called an Irish cúnt by an English bloke a while ago. The English ****ed us over for centuries and I'd have no problem living in London. Great place, a minority don't like the Irish, but that wouldn't put me off. Heading there in two weeks actually.

Siuin

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

So basically, a load of stuff that happened over 50 years ago and a few personal anecdotes about meeting some dickheads that made jokes and you're ready to leave this country. I was called an Irish cúnt by an English bloke a while ago. The English ****ed us over for centuries and I'd have no problem living in London. Great place, a minority don't like the Irish, but that wouldn't put me off. Heading there in two weeks actually.

Yes, I'm leaving the country- not simply because of my own personal experiences, but because I feel that my kids deserve much better than to encounter the same bullshít that I did when the opportunity exists for them to live in a country where they don't need to be a tiny minority and receive stupid comments on an ongoing basis.

If you want to live as a minority, fine. But don't expect everyone else to have the same worldview.

Nodin

Siuin wrote: »

.........If you want to live as a minority, fine. But don't expect everyone else to have the same worldview.

Wonderful mentality. Thankfully most jews don't share it.

Siuin

Nodin wrote: »

Wonderful mentality. Thankfully most jews don't share it.

Oh gee, I forgot you're an expert on the feelings of Jews Nodin.

People emigrate for money, jobs, climate- not wanting to need CCTV and guards at the synagogue I attend on a weekly basis is a pretty fair reason to leave any country imo.

Debator

Not in the slightest bit surprised at some of the outrageously anti-Jew posts in this thread. I brought up the issue of casual anti-Semitic remarks in a Feedback thread before and I was laughed at. How does a user like Andy!! - a member of Boards for over 2 years with over 1,600 posts - remain undetected while he spreads vitriol and bile about a whole race of people?

@Siuin: Don't let the bigots drive you off this site. I've seen a couple of Jewish posters close their accounts on Boards as the result of continued harassment from some quarters here, hiding under the guise of "Pro-Palestinian".

Nobody is trying to censor discussion, but if you can't distinguish between the Israeli government and the Occupied Territories, and Israel, the Israeli people, and Jews, then maybe you should educate yourself before you look foolish.

Yitzhak Rabin

Siuin wrote: »

Oh gee, I forgot you're an expert on the feelings of Jews Nodin.

People emigrate for money, jobs, climate- not wanting to need CCTV and guards at the synagogue I attend on a weekly basis is a pretty fair reason to leave any country imo.

If you're looking to go somewhere where you don't want guards and CCTV present you may want to look elsewhere.

Benny_Cake

Debator wrote: »

Nobody is trying to censor discussion, but if you can't distinguish between the Israeli government and the Occupied Territories, and Israel, the Israeli people, and Jews, then maybe you should educate yourself before you look foolish.

I think this is pretty much spot on, not all Israelis are Jews, not all Jews are Israelis, and in any case public opinion in Israel is deeply divided as regards the occupation. I actually find there is much more of a robust debate in the Israeli media as regards the occupation than there is in the likes of the Washington Post or New York Times where there is a degree of self-policing in how the issue is reported.

Strange to see how some people can form such strong opinions about a group of people who are a tiny minority in Ireland, although I think anti-Semitism is pretty rare here thankfully.

Mr Whirly

Siuin wrote: »

Once again- if an Irish person moved to the US, Australia or Britain and wanted to join their armies, nobody would care.

I would. Lots of other people would too. All the armies mentioned are scum.

Siuin

Yitzhak Rabin wrote: »

If you're looking to go somewhere where you don't want guards and CCTV present you may want to look elsewhere.

Way to completely miss the point. I'm talking about their need to be present at a synagogue- a place of worship- because of the small minded bigots which exist out there. When I was in Israel and just walked into a synagogue without anyone so much as giving me a second look, I couldn't believe it. Usually it's an annoying process of having your bag searched, presenting photo ID etc.

Siuin

Mr Whirly wrote: »

I would. Lots of other people would too. All the armies mentioned are scum.

Which armed forces would your prefer? The Taliban?

PhlegmyMoses

Siuin wrote: »

Yes, I'm leaving the country- not simply because of my own personal experiences, but because I feel that my kids deserve much better than to encounter the same bullshít that I did when the opportunity exists for them to live in a country where they don't need to be a tiny minority and receive stupid comments on an ongoing basis.

If you want to live as a minority, fine. But don't expect everyone else to have the same worldview.

I guess I'm just not as sensitive. I'm confident in the validity of my background and my validity as a person that I can let comments like that wash over me. The reality is that the Irish are not persecuted in the UK so a comment here and there from some random bigot isn't going to colour my opinion of that country. Jews are not persecuted here. That is a reality.

Ireland would be a great place for your kids to grow up in. Sheltering them away because you think they might be as thin skinned as you isn't doing them any favours. When they get to wherever you're going, they'll probably get the piss ripped for how they speak, how they style their hair, how they are fat, how they are skinny, whatever. It's your job to teach them that the people making anti-Semitic comments are the minority and it does not represent the general feeling of those in Ireland.

Yitzhak Rabin

Siuin wrote: »

Way to completely miss the point. I'm talking about their need to be present at a synagogue- a place of worship- because of the small minded bigots which exist out there. When I was in Israel and just walked into a synagogue without anyone so much as giving me a second look, I couldn't believe it. Usually it's an annoying process of having your bag searched, presenting photo ID etc.

Apologies. My comment was more tongue in cheek than anything.

I'm not religious so wouldn't have experienced that kind of thing before. I've visited Israel, and to be honest, whilst its an amazing place, parts did feel very hostile and oppressive. Particularly Jerusalem. I love Ireland, and it's one of the best places in the world I can think of for raising kids. It's safe, clean and despite you're negative experiences, I've personally had the opposite.

I can get that you perhaps feel like an outsider here, and want to be part of a larger community, and in the end feeling welcome and at home in your community is one of the most important parts of life. I feel more Irish than anything else.

Just be sure that's what you want, and don't buy into all the romanticised notions about Israels. For all the great things about the place, there are huge negatives too.

Siuin

Yitzhak Rabin wrote: »

Apologies. My comment was more tongue in cheek than anything.

I'm not religious so wouldn't have experienced that kind of thing before. I've visited Israel, and to be honest, whilst its an amazing place, pats did feel very hostile and oppressive. Particularly Jerusalem. I love Ireland, and it's one of the best places in the world I can think of for raising kids. It's safe, clean and despite you're negative experiences, I've personally had the opposite.

I can get that you perhaps feel like an outsider here, and want to be part of a larger community, and in the end feeling welcome and at home in your community is one of the most important parts of life. I feel more Irish than anything else.

Just be sure that's what you want, and don't buy into all the romanticised notions about Israels. For all the great things about the place, there are huge negatives too.

Lol no worries- after living in a pretty dodgy neighbourhood with a bunch of immigrants from the USSR, the only way is up :P

Mr Benevolent

I don't hate Jews, I hate Israel for its actions.

Mr Whirly

Siuin wrote: »

Which armed forces would your prefer? The Taliban?

Why would you say that?

Armies who's main purpose is to secure cheap oil for the west certainly don't top my list. Our army and any other neutral armies are grand.

Siuin

Confab wrote: »

I don't hate Jews, I hate Israel for its actions.

Just out of interest- do you also hate the rest of the Middle Eastern countries for their disgusting actions and human rights violations?

Siuin

Mr Whirly wrote: »

Why would you say that?

Armies who's main purpose is to secure cheap oil for the west certainly don't top my list. Our army and any other neutral armies are grand.

Pretty cynical view of the west, but hardly surprising given the usual stuff that thrown up around here

Mr Whirly

Siuin wrote: »

Pretty cynical view of the west, but hardly surprising given the usual stuff that thrown up around here

Not as cynical as your view of middle east apparently.

Siuin

Mr Whirly wrote: »

Not as cynical as your view of middle east apparently.

So the Middle East ISN'T rife with human rights abuses? That funny, because last time I checked they were still stoning women, executing homosexuals, cutting off people's heads and limbs, etc etc.

Mr Whirly

Siuin wrote: »

So the Middle East ISN'T rife with human rights abuses? That funny, because last time I checked they were still stoning women, executing homosexuals, cutting off people's heads and limbs, etc etc.

I never said that.

Two wrongs don't make a right.

Siuin

Mr Whirly wrote: »

I never said that.

Two wrongs don't make a right.

You did say I was cynical regarding the Middle East- I however was making the point that my observations are based on actual fact.

Wibbs

Siuin wrote: »

Oh gee, I forgot you're an expert on the feelings of Jews Nodin.

I'd have to agree with Siuin on this TBH. I've certainly seen and heard anti Jewish guff in Ireland and I've personally known jews who have suffered from it. Compared to racism guff? Oh it's lesser, I've certainly heard more people poppin off about n*ggers etc. I'd say that's mostly down to the fact that Irish Jews don't stand out, they look like the locals, well they would do as they are locals and they were never a large part of the Irish population.

Plus if you're Jewish yourself you're naturally gonna hear/see more of it as it's aimed at you.

On the wider anti semitism in Irish history? I'd be less accusatory about us there. Yes the Limerick pogrom was a dark episode, however it is noticeable for being an isolated one. Plus one reason so many Jews ended up in Cork is because when they fled from Limerick on the way to the US, they were taken in by the people of Cork and quite the number stayed because of that. Given how small in number they've been quite the number have risen to important positions in Ireland down through the years. Indeed Ireland was one of the first countries in Europe to elect a Jew to the office of Mayor and that was back in the 16th century IIRC. We've had two Jewish mayors of Dublin and one in Cork and others in other areas of politics. On that note Daniel O'Connell as well as looking for Catholic emancipation also included Irish Jews in this. He said to the leader of British Jews "You will find in me the constant and active friend to every measure which tends to give the Jews an equality of civil rights with all other the king’s subjects, a perfect unconditional equality". He did more than talk about it too. England still had a law in the mid 19th century that prescribed special dress for Jews(hitler invented nothing of this stuff) and he campaigned to have that struck off and succeeded. Before him a chap called Toland had called for full rights for Irish Jews and a bill made it to the Irish parliament(but was ignored in London. Big surprise). There was long a time when the Irish and those among us who were also Jewish were campaigning for the same rights.

Considering Ireland was so rabidly Catholic this is surprising enough, especially when you look at other Catholic countries and their long list of pograms and ghettoisation of their Jewish people. Not just Catholic, the eastern Orthodox Christians were real bastards towards the Jews. About the single most anti semitic bunch I've come across in latter years have been eastern Europeans and Russians. Pograms were a national sport in those areas for centuries. So I'd be more with the aforementioned O'Connell when he said "Ireland has claims on your ancient race, it is the only country that I know of unsullied by any one act of persecution of the Jews". This was before the Limerick bullshít of course, but like I say it's notable for it's rarity.

Actually I reckon all examples of hatred and even suspicion towards "the outsider" has increased in latter years and Jews have been dragged up in that guff with the rest.

People emigrate for money, jobs, climate- not wanting to need CCTV and guards at the synagogue I attend on a weekly basis is a pretty fair reason to leave any country imo.

Yes S but to go to a country which has more than it's fair share of security around it's people? About the highest I can think of in the western world. In many ways it's a besieged state and people. OK Jews are far more defended in Israel, but sadly they need to be so I'm not so sure of the personal safety angle myself. Then again it probably depends on which area you''d move to I suppose. Some are much further away from the BS than others.

I remember one guy I knew who went to Israel and we were chatting about the whys and what he said made sense to me. He said "I'm moving because I feel I don't have to explain myself so much there"(he reckoned he still would have to in the UK and even the US). He loved Ireland too, well he would do it was his homeland, the only place he knew and grew up in. I can understand his reasoning for leaving though. Plus if someone wants to marry another Jew the small population here is a major pain in the arse.