How will you choose between MS & Sony's new consoles?

Angron

Thecageyone wrote: »

I was all set to get both, at some point. But to be Frank, reading Sony fanboy comments on every other article that's posted up on game sites, even when not related to either next gen console, they insist on starting the ruckus - has turned me off the ps4. I would never want to play online with these kids!

XB1 for me to start at least.

Yup, cause there's no way that the online contingent for xbox could be every bit as bad.

FlyingIrishMan

McDonnellDean wrote: »

MS will be able to deliver some cracking software that offloads most of it's work to the cloud meaning potentially unlimited hardware resources only reined in by the speed of a users broadband. MS are already investigating the feasibility of Windows in the cloud so I expect a lot of innovation on the xbox end too.

Nope. no no no no no.

McDonnellDean

FlyingIrishMan wrote: »

Nope. no no no no no.

Elaborate?

FlyingIrishMan

McDonnellDean wrote: »

Elaborate?

The cloud will not provide "unlimited hardware resources" as MS described. It's all PR lies to try and make up for their weaker console. It will provide some cool features, and dedicated servers for multiplayer games. But it will not significantly enhance graphics in any way.

That being said, there is nothing at all stopping Sony from doing all of this cloud stuff too, but there isn't anyway for MS to improve the local hardware of its console.

TNT2k_

McDonnellDean wrote: »

I think the X1 is the console to go for, not because of anything discussed here. The X1 will be backed by Azure, Microsoft's cloud service. Azure is positioning itself very strongly in the software market, they have Scott Guthrie, a very well respected VP at it's helm and they have made some massive inroads in places like Linux and Node support.

Game devs will seek to offload as much as they can to the cloud in my view but this will be first part exclusives most likely. This is for the same reason that the PS4's extra beef will make fick all difference for cross platform games; It makes commercial sense to optimize for the lowest common denominator which means the only games that will get cloud power or raw console power will be first part exclusives.

The reason I bring up the cloud though is because of it's potential impact on the infrastructural side. MS will be able to deliver some cracking software that offloads most of it's work to the cloud meaning potentially unlimited hardware resources only reined in by the speed of a users broadband. MS are already investigating the feasibility of Windows in the cloud so I expect a lot of innovation on the xbox end too.

The X1 OS, looks to be far more mature also. Having two OS images run in tandem with fast switching gives the best of boat worlds. I know some people feel that games consoles should only cater for games but I disagree. I personally want an entertainment machine that does content of all types equally as well. I use Netflix and Xbox Music on my console all the time and to have these services running on an OS designed for consumption, away from the games sounds epic.

We already know MS' future plans thanks to a botched reveal. I personally think they where wrong to backtrack. If you sweep away the cruft and FUD it was easy to see how MS was positioning the X1 to work more like steam. This is good for everyone, devs get more money and we get price reductions. When all said and done the economics of the used game market hurts everyone. Anyone with a steam account will tell you how galling preowned prices are compared to steam sales.

Based on work MS has done in it's other services it's easy to see that they are betting the farm on Cloud so I think that rather than go away, they have only delayed the original vision for how the X1 will work, I have no doubt that in 12 months there will be an opt in for the new delivery mechanisms. If I was a betting man I would put money on it not being ready more than the will of the customer for the backtrack. It is interesting to see MS have had to push a few timescales out (Windows 8.1 RTM for instance) so this would not come as a shock to me.

Ultimately I think the X1 and PS4 will do equally well but I feel there is a divergence happening, in the same way the Wii diverged, between Sony and MS in terms of what people want. If nothing else it is going to be a fun cycle this time around.

I thought this was put to rest months ago? The 'power of the cloud' was a marketing gimmick. It does not in any way give 'unlimited resources' because it can't for technical reasons, lag being one of the major ones.

Funnily, Microsoft have barely mentioned the cloud after their whole DRM reversal, thus proving it was largely a marketing gimmick to justify the restrictive policies.

You're also forgetting that Sony have bought the biggest cloud gaming streaming service in the world, Gaikai. If anything, they have the upper hand when it comes to the utilisation of cloud features in gaming.

McDonnellDean

FlyingIrishMan wrote: »

The cloud will not provide "unlimited hardware resources" as MS described. It's all PR lies to try and make up for their weaker console. It will provide some cool features, and dedicated servers for multiplayer games. But it will not significantly enhance graphics in any way.

PR Lies? My whole job is currently based on offloading work to the cloud, Azure specifically. There is no reason NOT to take advantage of this via Xbox One.

Granted you are correct about the graphics, the bandwidth pipe wont support that sort of throughput, however anything else offload will allow more onboard graphical processing.

Where this will get really interesting is in AI, there is a lot of numbers to crunch in this regard, the cloud will be a perfect place to offload this sort of number crunching.

McDonnellDean

TNT2k_ wrote: »

I thought this was put to rest months ago? The 'power of the cloud' was a marketing gimmick. It does not in any way give 'unlimited resources' because it can't for technical reasons, lag being one of the major ones.

Funnily, Microsoft have barely mentioned the cloud after their whole DRM reversal, thus proving it was largely a marketing gimmick to justify the restrictive policies.

You're also forgetting that Sony have bought the biggest cloud gaming streaming service in the world, Gaikai. If anything, they have the upper hand when it comes to the utilisation of cloud features in gaming.

That is incorrect. Gaikai is a product that runs on the cloud. Microsoft's Azure IS a cloud, the difference being they are the owners and creators of the infrastructure itself.

There is a lot of misunderstanding about what is the cloud and what is powered by the cloud. All of the PR bits from MS where based on services in the cloud, not the cloud itself.

Are you really telling me Sony will have the upper hand with one product on the cloud vs a company who own the second biggest and arguably the most advanced cloud in the world.

McDonnellDean

TNT2k_ wrote: »

I thought this was put to rest months ago? The 'power of the cloud' was a marketing gimmick. It does not in any way give 'unlimited resources' because it can't for technical reasons, lag being one of the major ones.

Funnily, Microsoft have barely mentioned the cloud after their whole DRM reversal, thus proving it was largely a marketing gimmick to justify the restrictive policies.

You're also forgetting that Sony have bought the biggest cloud gaming streaming service in the world, Gaikai. If anything, they have the upper hand when it comes to the utilisation of cloud features in gaming.

Your confusing a couple of terms here. Lag is only related to large data transfers. Procedural generation, complex long range calculations and computations can all be done, returning a single value. Lag is not an issue in these instances, if it was Games like WoW would have never made it out of the gate as they rely on this sort of computation.

There is no point in Microsoft mentioning the cloud, the cloud is an infrastructural concern.

Grayditch

My cloud would batter your cloud.

stevenmu

TNT2k_ wrote: »

Funnily, Microsoft have barely mentioned the cloud after their whole DRM reversal, thus proving it was largely a marketing gimmick to justify the restrictive policies.

They've been talking about it quite a lot, as have developers working on the system, just 2 quick examples I found:
http://www.oxm.co.uk/59493/forza-5-is-the-hardest-thing-turn-10-has-ever-done-xbox-one-cloud-offers-600-more-ai-capability/
http://www.reddit.com/r/xboxone/comments/1lbp7s/battlefield_4_xbox_one_dice_sees_potential_in/

Microsoft also gave demos of the SDK at build, explicitly demoing how the cloud functionality is much more than just dedicated servers and showing how non-latency-critical heavy-compute functions are offloaded to the cloud. They also explained how partial rendering in the cloud works, by allowing distant complex objects to be pre-rendered in the cloud before they are needed, and then incorporating the pre-rendered objects into the local graphics pipeline as needed.

And, it allows for dedicated servers, which lets face it, is a huge step up from games being hosted on some random console with a slow connection, whose owner rage quits if they are losing.

McDonnellDean

Also,

It is important to note that Sony will be innovating here too. That is not to say they wont, I fully expect Sony to be exploring these avenues just as much as Microsoft but the fact remains, Microsoft own a Cloud, Sony do not.

For those interested in cloud + gaming in general there is a nice thread on reddit asking why the cloud will be huge for gaming: http://np.reddit.com/r/xboxone/comments/1l5wbs/azurewhy_do_people_like_to_downplay_the_xbox_ones/

FlyingIrishMan

McDonnellDean wrote: »

Your confusing a couple of terms here. Lag is only related to large data transfers. Procedural generation, complex long range calculations and computations can all be done, returning a single value. Lag is not an issue in these instances, if it was Games like WoW would have never made it out of the gate as they rely on this sort of computation.

There is no point in Microsoft mentioning the cloud, the cloud is an infrastructural concern.

It would need at least two pings. And if your latency to the servers are bad then it can significantly worsen your playing experience.
If you reach a point in the game where you need something done on the cloud, you need to first tell the cloud that you have reached that point, and then have the cloud send the actions back.

If AI are processed in the cloud then there is going to be a lot of pinging back and forth for each command to be executed. Lag/Latency is definitely something that needs to be considered.

Retr0gamer

McDonnellDean wrote: »

That is not to say they wont, I fully expect Sony to be exploring these avenues just as much as Microsoft but the fact remains, Microsoft own a Cloud, Sony do not.

Sony do have a cloud. A cloud is just a fancy buzz word people like to use instead of saying server network. It sounds fancy. PSN could be considered a cloud.

FlyingIrishMan

McDonnellDean wrote: »

Also,
It is important to note that Sony will be innovating here too. That is not to say they wont, I fully expect Sony to be exploring these avenues just as much as Microsoft but the fact remains, Microsoft own a Cloud, Sony do not.

Call Gaikai what you want, but it is definitely considered a cloud network.

McDonnellDean

That's not technically correct Retr0Gamer,

It has more to do with replication, availability and scalablity. There is a large difference between a massive server farm and a cloud. One is a large amount of machines working in tandem, the other is one software machine shared over many pieces of hardware (That is as non technical as I could make it). Essentially the cloud is the removal of hardware as a factor, it is simply a means to an end.

I have no doubt Sony have a cloud and I have no doubt that is what Gaikai is running on but it is not in the same league as Azure or EC2. Both of these services are far and beyond anything currently available, the only close third is RackSpace's offering and even then it is leagues behind in terms of functionality.

danthefan

Apparently the Kinect voice commands will not work in Ireland at launch. This makes no sense to me at all as they do work in the UK (along with US, Canada, France and Germany).

McDonnellDean

danthefan wrote: »

Apparently the Kinect voice commands will not work in Ireland at launch. This makes no sense to me at all as they do work in the UK (along with US, Canada, France and Germany).

Blame Cork Bai

thegame983

I think alot of it has to do with trust. If all this 'cloud' stuff coming out of microsoft is true - will they use this raw power to enhance gaming experience or will they use it to collate data on individuals and use this data to try and sell us products etc. The xbox1 has some great TV features... if you live in America. Will there be any benefit to these features for us over here? Are we paying for stuff we don't need/ want. it's all hypothetical but microsoft had to backtrack on alot of things because they honstly thought that the paying public would lap up anything they said. To contrast this generation has been a humbling experience for sony. The result of this is a new console aimed at the cumsumer not at restrictive DRM, always online (just to combate piracy) and other inovations of Microsoft. I was an xbox 360 early adopter and I loved that console, but if someone put a gun to my head right now and said 'buy something' - I would go for the PS4 (but I'm not - gonna wait till next year then make up my mind)

McDonnellDean

@thegame983,

I think you are focusing too much on the wrong aspects. Most of the DRM bits are no different in reality than what steam had at first launch. Privacy is of course a concern but is equally valid for Sony, and lets not forget they have already faultered in this regard before.

Ultimately it is too early to tell which will be the better system.

McDonnellDean

A good balanced video on cloud for both:

http://videogamesandnews.com/xbox-one-cloud-a-pr-gimmick-or-the-real-deal/

It's a bit iffy on the technicals but overall it is fair.

danthefan

McDonnellDean wrote: »

@thegame983,

I think you are focusing too much on the wrong aspects. Most of the DRM bits are no different in reality than what steam had at first launch. Privacy is of course a concern but is equally valid for Sony, and lets not forget they have already faultered in this regard before.

Ultimately it is too early to tell which will be the better system.

Steam was conceived initially to ease problems with Valve's online games. And it wasn't very good initially either. But it was a couple of years after Steam released that third party games became available on it. I don't actually think Valve/Gabe knew what Steam would go on to become. It was a completely different product with a completely different purpose to the XOne. And people did try to compare the XOne policies (pre-180) to Steam which just holds no water at all.

2Mad2BeMad

danthefan wrote: »

Apparently the Kinect voice commands will not work in Ireland at launch. This makes no sense to me at all as they do work in the UK (along with US, Canada, France and Germany).

link ?

edit: nevermind found it

McDonnellDean

danthefan wrote: »

Steam was conceived initially to ease problems with Valve's online games. And it wasn't very good initially either. But it was a couple of years after Steam released that third party games became available on it. I don't actually think Valve/Gabe knew what Steam would go on to become. It was a completely different product with a completely different purpose to the XOne. And people did try to compare the XOne policies (pre-180) to Steam which just holds no water at all.

That had DRM issues too.

The point I was trying to make was that the DRM was a means to an end to enable game sharing, the really screwed up the reveal of this, you actually had to hunt out this info.

Ultimately the backlash had more to do with a disgraceful launch that the policy itself in my opinion.

For instance, if they had made this an opt in service rather than enforcing it on everyone we wouldn't be having this conversation.

thegame983

McDonnellDean wrote: »

@thegame983,

I think you are focusing too much on the wrong aspects. Most of the DRM bits are no different in reality than what steam had at first launch. Privacy is of course a concern but is equally valid for Sony, and lets not forget they have already faultered in this regard before.

Ultimately it is too early to tell which will be the better system.

Agreed. I lieterally have no idea which I'll get. The DRM was just an example that, in fairness, Microsoft made a bit of a mess of, but my initial point still stands. You mention Valve. They got where they are by treating their customers well. they are by and large a company that is trusted & respected and I, for one, would trust them to do the right thing for the customer. Microsoft don't really have this kind of track record. Alot of their initives with this new generation were aimed solely for their own benefit and not a thought to the customer. Treat people well and they will buy your product. expect people to buy your product because you want them to (ps3 at launch) and they won't. Well the Yanks will and that will be enough for Microsoft.

McDonnellDean

thegame983 wrote: »

Agreed. I lieterally have no idea which I'll get. The DRM was just an example that, in fairness, Microsoft made a bit of a mess of, but my initial point still stands. You mention Valve. They got where they are by treating their customers well. they are by and large a company that is trusted & respected and I, for one, would trust them to do the right thing for the customer. Microsoft don't really have this kind of track record. Alot of their initives with this new generation were aimed solely for their own benefit and not a thought to the customer. Treat people well and they will buy your product. expect people to buy your product because you want them to (ps3 at launch) and they won't. Well the Yanks will and that will be enough for Microsoft.

You are right there boss but there is only so long we can smack MS over the back of the head for what they did in the 90's

McDonnellDean

Here is a nice short article on why GaiKai and Azure are not the same:

http://ie.ign.com/blogs/xxyetterxx/2013/07/19/ms-azure-gaikai

F1ngers

McDonnellDean wrote: »

You are right there boss but there is only so long we can smack MS over the back of the head for what they did in the 90's

I got the impression he was talking about MS in 2013, not once did he mention the 90s.

Xenji

People saying cloud will enhance the XBOX one's graphics again? Have we not been through this already.

McDonnellDean

Fingers,

My comment was based on how they got their track record.

Xenji,

Not me. Of course they could do pre renders in the cloud, some Windows Phone games do this already but I don't think it would be viable for in cycle graphics.

danthefan

McDonnellDean wrote: »

That had DRM issues too.

The point I was trying to make was that the DRM was a means to an end to enable game sharing, the really screwed up the reveal of this, you actually had to hunt out this info.

Ultimately the backlash had more to do with a disgraceful launch that the policy itself in my opinion.

For instance, if they had made this an opt in service rather than enforcing it on everyone we wouldn't be having this conversation.

What DRM issues? You have to keep in mind though Steam were doing this 10 years ago. They were in front of everyone and it's not fair at all to compare them to MS, 10 years on. Did they get everything right in the first place? Probably not. But there was nobody else out there to compare themselves to, they were the first big digital distribution platform.

Currently Steam has an unlimited offline mode and I can install every single one of my games on every single PC I have access to. MS know this, they see it works, and they went with an entirely different model.

As for game sharing, wasn't it highly restricted on the XOne? Like, you have to give away your game permanently in order to share it?