How will you choose between MS & Sony's new consoles?

Retr0gamer · 18-06-2013 11:14am

For me it's the fact that it's 100 euros less for what seems to be a superior piece of hardware versus a system with awful DRM. It's kind of an easy choice.

Mitch Connor · 18-06-2013 11:28am

Retr0gamer wrote: »

For me it's the fact that it's 100 euros less for what seems to be a superior piece of hardware versus a system with awful DRM. It's kind of an easy choice.

If MS announced a price drop to the PS4 level, I'd be sold. its the extra 100 euro that is putting me off, really. For that money I could likely get a game and an extra controller for the PS4, and whichever console I get I will likely want to get at least 2 games and an extra pad.

mcgovern · 18-06-2013 11:28am

Grumpypants wrote: »

Bringing your games to your friends house? This is even easier you can bring your full game collection to their house and you don't even need to carry a single disk with you!

Just out of curiosity, if you go to your friends house to play BF4, are you going to be happy to wait days to download the 20GB game from the cloud on your friends 1.5mb internet?

Mitch Connor · 18-06-2013 11:31am

mcgovern wrote: »

Just out of curiosity, if you go to your friends house to play BF4, are you going to be happy to wait days to download the 20GB game from the cloud on your friends 1.5mb internet?

Bring the disk if you need to in this case, and install off the disc, using your own profile to unlock and play it on his console. (which won't be able to play it off their profile).

So you COULD share games via the cloud, but if that isn't practical for you, you can use the disc as well.

Lending games to friends with crap internet connections may indeed be crap - it depends how this family sharing feature works - if you can install from the disc and share using permission from a friends list then it could be fine. Need more info on it.

NotorietyH · 18-06-2013 11:32am

Grumpypants wrote: »

Check in every 24hours? Yes this is true but you never need to worry about turning on your Xbox and having to wait for a patch or game update ever again,

The PS4 will do the same, except it doesn't need the always on connection. It's a feature that's there if you want it.

Still have yet to see a good argument for just exactly how Microsoft's policies benefit the consumer.

Penn · 18-06-2013 11:34am

Grumpypants wrote: »

Hassle of lending to your friends? You just hand them the game and it works for them. You don't even need to hand them a disk, if you own it in your collection and they are your friend on Xbox they can play it on their Xbox !!

Bringing your games to your friends house? This is even easier you can bring your full game collection to their house and you don't even need to carry a single disk with you!

If they have good internet connection. Not always the case here and I have several friends and family who wouldn't be able to do so due to having no/limited internet. Two weeks ago I gave my nephew the lend of Lego Batman. All I had to do was hand him the disk. They have no internet in their house. Wouldn't have been able to do that if we both had the Xbone.

Grumpypants wrote: »

Can't buy used games? Yes you can, you go into Gamestop and buy a used game go home put it in your Xbox and play it.

I may be wrong, but I was under the impression that if you have a used game, you need to have been friends with the original owner for at least 30 days, and it can only be done once, meaning you then couldn't trade in the game again. I'm open to correction on that though.

Grumpypants wrote: »

Kinect must be plugged in? Yes this is true the Xbox makes use of voice commands and gestures so it needs something to read those voice commands and gestures. You can turn it off but then your voice commands and gestures won't work.

And it's a factor which has likely resulted in the Xbone being more expensive than the PS4, even though it's a feature some people simply don't want to use. I for one wouldn't want to use it, so if it can be turned off and I don't have to use it, why does it need to be plugged in at all? I wouldn't care if it came with the Xbone, I simply wouldn't use it and would put it in a drawer or something. But the fact that it must be plugged in even if it's turned off and not being used is ridiculous.

Grumpypants wrote: »

Check in every 24hours? Yes this is true but you never need to worry about turning on your Xbox and having to wait for a patch or game update ever again, you never have to worry about changing disks or loosing disks ever again. You can jump from playing Halo 5 to BF4 by just telling the Xbox to change game. You no longer have to dashboard the console, get up go over to the console fumble around with disks, try to search through all your boxes because some idiot put your BF4 disk into the wrong case or worse the missus put it into a DVD box and put it back on the shelf.

Firstly, most of what you've said there is about being connected to the internet, not the 24 hour check. It doesn't change the fact that if your internet is down for a few days (which happens, not often, but enough for it to be a factor), you're locked out of single player offline games. Secondly, my PS3 pretty much already does all that. With PS+, games update automatically. The amount of downloaded games I have means I can easily switch between them without having to fumble for disks etc. And I can still play them offline so long as my subscription hasn't expired (which is usually months, not 24 hours)

NTMK · 18-06-2013 11:36am

Grumpypants wrote: »

This is a perfect example of what has gone wrong for Microsoft. The amount of information that is being picked up for incorrect forum posts is staggering.

Hassle of lending to your friends? You just hand them the game and it works for them. You don't even need to hand them a disk, if you own it in your collection and they are your friend on Xbox they can play it on their Xbox !!

if you gift them the game then its gone onto there account for good and no-one knows how this "family" system is going to work

Bringing your games to your friends house? This is even easier you can bring your full game collection to their house and you don't even need to carry a single disk with you!

Fair point but at the same time when did bringing a disk with you become a difficult task

Can't buy used games? Yes you can, you go into Gamestop and buy a used game go home put it in your Xbox and play it.

Yep but theyve effectively have handed gamestop and Game a monopoly on the used game market with their restrictions

Kinect must be plugged in? Yes this is true the Xbox makes use of voice commands and gestures so it needs something to read those voice commands and gestures. You can turn it off but then your voice commands and gestures won't work.

if i dont want to use voicde commands or gestures and since they are not needed since i can "turn them off" why cant I unplug the kinect

Check in every 24hours? Yes this is true but you never need to worry about turning on your Xbox and having to wait for a patch or game update ever again, you never have to worry about changing disks or loosing disks ever again. You can jump from playing Halo 5 to BF4 by just telling the Xbox to change game. You no longer have to dashboard the console, get up go over to the console fumble around with disks, try to search through all your boxes because some idiot put your BF4 disk into the wrong case or worse the missus put it into a DVD box and put it back on the shelf.

you can have the benefit of patching without the 24 hour check-in and if this patching arguement is valid then the tethering agument is invalid as given the size of patches you will hit your cap almost very quickly and again when did changing a disc once every few hours become a difficult task

Mitch Connor · 18-06-2013 11:39am

Penn wrote: »

If they have good internet connection. Not always the case here and I have several friends and family who wouldn't be able to do so due to having no/limited internet. Two weeks ago I gave my nephew the lend of Lego Batman. All I had to do was hand him the disk. They have no internet in their house. Wouldn't have been able to do that if we both had the Xbone.

I may be wrong, but I was under the impression that if you have a used game, you need to have been friends with the original owner for at least 30 days, and it can only be done once, meaning you then couldn't trade in the game again. I'm open to correction on that though.

You can install games form disc. You may be able to lend the disc to a friend to install from - haven't seen this clarified either direction.

If you trade a game to gamestop (for example), they will have a process that removes the key from your console and gives it to them - when they sell the game it is sold with the key again, for the next person. Where a shop is involved, you certainly don't need to know the buyer. That 30 day rule you refer to is for you gifting a game to a friend. There is some 'once only' clause, but I haven't seen clarification on what that means - can I only gift to a particular friend once, any friend once or the game can only be gifted once.

Mitch Connor · 18-06-2013 11:42am

NTMK wrote: »

Yep but theyve effectively have handed gamestop and Game a monopoly on the used game market with their restrictions

Has this been announced somewhere? I haven't seen anywhere stating only Game and Gamestop will be authorized resellers. I would assume places like HVM (in Ireland/UK) could apply for the same authorization, along with American companies like Best Buy.

I would imagine the amount of places you can trade games (in terms of shops) will be about the same as it is now.

Will be interested to know if Gamesnash have any information on this.

Penn · 18-06-2013 11:43am

Mitch Connor wrote: »

You can install games form disc. You may be able to lend the disc to a friend to install from - haven't seen this clarified either direction.

Agreed. I was just responding to the claims of not even needing the disk.

Mitch Connor wrote: »

If you trade a game to gamestop (for example), they will have a process that removes the key from your console and gives it to them - when they sell the game it is sold with the key again, for the next person. Where a shop is involved, you certainly don't need to know the buyer. That 30 day rule you refer to is for you gifting a game to a friend. There is some 'once only' clause, but I haven't seen clarification on what that means - can I only gift to a particular friend once, any friend once or the game can only be gifted once.

Admittedly I didn't know about what you're saying with Gamestop being able to transfer the key for the game over.

Though again, I refer to the word I used before: "Hassle". If there are simple solutions around all these problems, Microsoft have done a really p*ss-poor job of explaining it, because it all seems unnecessarily complicated and restrictive.

Mitch Connor · 18-06-2013 11:51am

Penn wrote: »

Agreed. I was just responding to the claims of not even needing the disk.

Admittedly I didn't know about what you're saying with Gamestop being able to transfer the key for the game over.

Though again, I refer to the word I used before: "Hassle". If there are simple solutions around all these problems, Microsoft have done a really p*ss-poor job of explaining it, because it all seems unnecessarily complicated and restrictive.

Oh hell yeah - I agree with you.

While I really want to like the XboxOne and I do think the policies they have announced have the potential to be fine to great, depending on the policy and how it is implemented (they could also be crap). But I have freely said all along that the PR campaign from MS has been one of the worst I have ever seen. They have blurred lines, provided mixed messages, ignored calls for clarification or simply not even attempted to explain things. It has been a shocking example of how to screw up at every turn.

They even give out that people are imagining worst case scenarios and that they will be happy when they realise what the policies actually mean.... Well MS, there is only one group to blame for the public not understanding how 'great' your policies are, and that is you - cause you haven't done anything to explain them!

As an example, I am convinced I have seen that you can remote play via Skype and record/upload game stuff via a DVR built into the XboxOne. They are two of the major features focused on by Sony for the PS4, and MS have barely mentioned that they have basically the same features - from memory they were almost offhand comments. Though maybe I misheard/misremember what was said/announced.

ScumLord · 18-06-2013 12:05pm

Grumpypants wrote: »

Bringing your games to your friends house? This is even easier you can bring your full game collection to their house and you don't even need to carry a single disk with you!

What will ye do for the couple of hours it takes to download each game?

FlyingIrishMan · 18-06-2013 12:11pm

Mitch Connor wrote: »

You can install games form disc. You may be able to lend the disc to a friend to install from - haven't seen this clarified either direction.

If you trade a game to gamestop (for example), they will have a process that removes the key from your console and gives it to them - when they sell the game it is sold with the key again, for the next person. Where a shop is involved, you certainly don't need to know the buyer. That 30 day rule you refer to is for you gifting a game to a friend. There is some 'once only' clause, but I haven't seen clarification on what that means - can I only gift to a particular friend once, any friend once or the game can only be gifted once.

If someone tries to install your disc on their console, it'll deactivate your license and its that persons forever. They can't do anything with it other than keep it, can't trade it in, can't give it back.

In gamestop you can only trade in games that you were the original buyer of, and if you buy a used game, you have to keep it forever. You can't trade it back in, can't sell it to a friend.

The system is far to restrictive.

Mitch Connor · 18-06-2013 12:18pm

FlyingIrishMan wrote: »

If someone tries to install your disc on their console, it'll deactivate your license and its that persons forever. They can't do anything with it other than keep it, can't trade it in, can't give it back.

In gamestop you can only trade in games that you were the original buyer of, and if you buy a used game, you have to keep it forever. You can't trade it back in, can't sell it to a friend.

The system is far to restrictive.

Fairly certain that is incorrect. One of the things MS said is that if you buy a game you can install it via disk and unlock it. then you can bring the same disk to a friends and they can install the game from that disk - at which point they can buy a licence (RRP) to unlock the game on their console. The disc itself is just a delivery/installation method with the licence not tied to that specific disc - but the licence can only be owned by one person.

As for you second comment - I would be surprised if that is true. Can you provide information to back that up. If publishers are now going to be getting money from the second hand sales, why would they then restrict it to one sale, that makes no sense on any level at all.

NTMK · 18-06-2013 12:19pm

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Has this been announced somewhere? I haven't seen anywhere stating only Game and Gamestop will be authorized resellers. I would assume places like HVM (in Ireland/UK) could apply for the same authorization, along with American companies like Best Buy.

I would imagine the amount of places you can trade games (in terms of shops) will be about the same as it is now.

Will be interested to know if Gamesnash have any information on this.

hmv are effectively pulling out of games in UK and Ireland. they have halved their game stock with little preowned games remaining.

that leaves Game in the UK and Gamestop in Ireland as the multichain stores left. CEX may get a license to sell but it kills a lot of smaller retailers esp. in the US.

I dont know how MS will license this system but i'd imagine its costly and since the margin is just not there for smaller stores they'll probably stop doing preowned games

Ireland has had it bad due to all GS rivals pulling out but as GS will now have to pay MS they will more than likely lower trade in valuations and increase price

They've effectively killed private selling

I imagine for the US they will have a lot of alternatives but again its MS not thinking outside of the US market

FlyingIrishMan · 18-06-2013 12:32pm

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Fairly certain that is incorrect. One of the things MS said is that if you buy a game you can install it via disk and unlock it. then you can bring the same disk to a friends and they can install the game from that disk - at which point they can buy a licence (RRP) to unlock the game on their console. The disc itself is just a delivery/installation method with the licence not tied to that specific disc - but the licence can only be owned by one person.

As for you second comment - I would be surprised if that is true. Can you provide information to back that up. If publishers are now going to be getting money from the second hand sales, why would they then restrict it to one sale, that makes no sense on any level at all.

You post a link to your sources. MS have stated in every interview that physical discs can only be given once. In the Major Nelson interview with Angry Joe he confirmed you can't trade in a game unless you are the original owner.

I don't know if your point about using the disc to install the game is true or not. You're the first person to ever mention it so thats why I'm doubting it.

Grumpypants · 18-06-2013 12:33pm

NotorietyH wrote: »

The PS4 will do the same, except it doesn't need the always on connection. It's a feature that's there if you want it.

Still have yet to see a good argument for just exactly how Microsoft's policies benefit the consumer.

Ok say you buy an Xbox One, you set up your "Xbox Family" to be ten of your closest friends. They can go into your shared games library and play your games when ever they want and you can go into their library and play any of their games.

On the PS4 you can give your friends a loan of a game, but then you can't play it because your friend has your disk. He needs to buy his own copy so you can both play it together. If you have ten friends that all want the game that's ten copies of the same game.

That is a benefit to the consumer.

Give your family access to your entire games library anytime, anywhere: Xbox One will enable new forms of access for families. Up to ten members of your family can log in and play from your shared games library on any Xbox One. Just like today, a family member can play your copy of Forza Motorsport at a friend’s house. Only now, they will see not just Forza, but all of your shared games. You can always play your games, and any one of your family members can be playing from your shared library at a given time.

FlyingIrishMan · 18-06-2013 12:36pm

Grumpypants wrote: »

Ok say you buy an Xbox One, you set up your "Xbox Family" to be ten of your closest friends. They can go into your shared games library and play your games when ever they want and you can go into their library and play any of their games.

On the PS4 you can give your friends a loan of a game, but then you can't play it because your friend has your disk. He needs to buy his own copy so you can both play it together. If you have ten friends that all want the game that's ten copies of the same game.

That is a benefit to the consumer.

The X1 system works the exact same as the PS4 system, it just does it without a disc. Only two people can access the library at once, and those two people can't be playing the same game. Don't know where you got that quote, but its wrong.

http://ie.ign.com/wikis/xbox-one/Used_Games_and_Rentals

Richard Dower · 18-06-2013 12:38pm

Was talking to a lad today and he told me if you buy a second hand X1 you'll need to pay a licence fee because the X1 is linked to a user account and its like an operating system licence like Windows 8....its linked to your account etc.

Thus you'll need to buy the licence the use the second hand X1......?

FlyingIrishMan · 18-06-2013 12:39pm

Richard Dower wrote: »

Was talking to a lad today and he told me if you buy a second hand X1 you'll need to pay a licence fee because the X1 is linked to a user account and its like an operating system licence like Windows 8....its linked to your account etc.

Thus you'll need to buy the licence the use the second hand X1......?

Doesn't surprise me, not the biggest issue really, unless the license costs more than 50$.

chrislad · 18-06-2013 12:44pm

Microsoft seem like they don't want to win or its a big marketing thing where they go Gotcha and do the opposite of everything they said.

Richard Dower · 18-06-2013 12:44pm

mikom wrote: »

Patch out for the X-box one already I hear.

?.....link?

Now MS are saying its only 3 times more powerful, didnt they say 10 times at E3

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jNX576Dg07Q

hmmmm.....guess the rumours of downclocking and fab problems are real......

Penn · 18-06-2013 12:48pm

Grumpypants wrote: »

Ok say you buy an Xbox One, you set up your "Xbox Family" to be ten of your closest friends. They can go into your shared games library and play your games when ever they want and you can go into their library and play any of their games.

On the PS4 you can give your friends a loan of a game, but then you can't play it because your friend has your disk. He needs to buy his own copy so you can both play it together. If you have ten friends that all want the game that's ten copies of the same game.

That seriously doesn't sound right and would surely result in hugely diminished sales of games. If one person bought the game and then their 10 friends could play that game at any time on their own machine, why would those 10 need to buy the game themselves?

So rather than 10 people each buying Dead Rising 3, only one buys it (and the other 9 give him maybe a fiver each towards it), and they can all play that game whenever they want (or at least the single-player aspect of it).

There's no way publishers would go along with that. Even if only 5 of your friends were sharing libraries like that, that's an 80% drop in potential sales.

You said in an earlier post "This is a perfect example of what has gone wrong for Microsoft. The amount of information that is being picked up for incorrect forum posts is staggering." Again, this is the problem, it is so unclear about how all of this works that even if it's ultimately the best thing ever, no one understands it enough to see that.

Beefy78 · 18-06-2013 12:57pm

Yeah as Penn said, that system is way too good to be true and whilst I had also read it I'm going to take it with a pinch of salt for now. If true it means a group of friends need never pay more than maybe a fiver each for a game again. There's no way that unrestricted access, IMO.

Considering that the suspicion is that a lot of these restrictions are on the back of pressure from the studios and publishers there no way that those same studios and publishers would agree to a feature which so clearly would impact new game sales.

I suspect that only one person would be able to play the game at any one time and that seeing as MS have constantly used the phrase 'family members' when discussing it they will have something in place to stop abuse of the system.

Penn · 18-06-2013 1:00pm

From what I see on another forum, only you and one other person can access your shared library at any one time. Unknown if they can play the same game or not.

But then, surely that's also bad because if you're watching Netflix, then decide to play a game from the library, what happens if two of your friends/family are already playing a game you want to play? Does one of them get booted off so you can play your game?

Grumpypants · 18-06-2013 1:02pm

FlyingIrishMan wrote: »

The X1 system works the exact same as the PS4 system, it just does it without a disc. Only two people can access the library at once, and those two people can't be playing the same game. Don't know where you got that quote, but its wrong.

http://ie.ign.com/wikis/xbox-one/Used_Games_and_Rentals

No it doesn't, nowhere on the PS4 can ten of your friends access your games library and play them for free. If you want you can loan your game to your friend but then you lose access to that game until you get your disk back.

On the Xbox One One of my friends can be playing one of my games with zero impact on me.

Even your link supports that, but just so you know the quote i posted comes from the official Microsoft Policy document, not a third party site liek yours.

Richard Dower · 18-06-2013 1:07pm

^ honestly lads....i am totally baffled about this whole second hand games stuff, friends, licences, physical discs and what not....it all seems overly complicated for my simple mind.

I like Sony's system:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kWSIFh8ICaA

FlyingIrishMan · 18-06-2013 1:08pm

Grumpypants wrote: »

No it doesn't, nowhere on the PS4 can ten of your friends access your games library and play them for free. If you want you can loan your game to your friend but then you lose access to that game until you get your disk back.

On the Xbox One One of my friends can be playing one of my games with zero impact on me.

Even your link supports that, but just so you know the quote i posted comes from the official Microsoft Policy document, not a third party site liek yours.

That link didn't support your belief:

You can always play your games, but only one of your family members can be playing from your shared library at a given time.

But since you won't believe that post even though its true.
From the OFFICIAL Microsoft DRM Policy page

Xbox One will enable new forms of access for families. Up to ten members of your family can log in and play from your shared games library on any Xbox One. Just like today, a family member can play your copy of Forza Motorsport at a friend’s house. Only now, they will see not just Forza, but all of your shared games. You can always play your games, and any one of your family members can be playing from your shared library at a given time.

It clearly says there, that you can play your games and any one user can access the shared library at a given time.
There is a big difference between anyone, and any one.

Richard Dower · 18-06-2013 1:11pm

FlyingIrishMan wrote: »

That link didn't support your belief:

But since you won't believe that post even though its true.
From the OFFICIAL Microsoft DRM Policy page

It clearly says there, that you can play your games and any one user can access the shared library at a given time.
There is a big difference between anyone, and any one.

It says any of your FAMILY members....not your friends!, like your brother or sister can play the game, not Jimmy down the road.

Grumpypants · 18-06-2013 1:12pm

Penn wrote: »

From what I see on another forum, only you and one other person can access your shared library at any one time. Unknown if they can play the same game or not.

But then, surely that's also bad because if you're watching Netflix, then decide to play a game from the library, what happens if two of your friends/family are already playing a game you want to play? Does one of them get booted off so you can play your game?

Nope, you get unrestricted access to your own games at all times. Your friends are limited, only one of them can play your games at a time (so you can't have a ten man death match from one game purchase).

So it doesn't suit for ten people chipping in a fiver each but it does suit for situations when you are bored and looking for something to play you can say "oh I wouldn't mind a quick bash off that game right now but Its midnight and my friend is asleep so I can't call over and get a loan of his disk" or "my friend still hasn't finished it so won't give me the disk" or "my friend is finished with the single player but needs the disk for the multiplayer".

You can pop into the shared games drive and play it as long as you are the only 1 person on the family list currently playing it.

How will you choose between MS & Sony's new consoles?

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