How will you choose between MS & Sony's new consoles?

ShadowHearth

Mitch Connor wrote: »

But thanks to the poor selling and outrage - MS were trying to provide a real change to the way console games were played. To me the features we have lost are the real next gen features.

The features you call next gen were nicely masked turd muffins.Even if such huge corporation had to come out with hands up and admit **** up, then you should not need a bigger prove.

Mudlan

Otacon wrote: »

It isn't up-gradable but you can use external storage. No clarification on whether the external storage can be used for game installs though.

Just came across this there......"Microsoft senior director of product planning Albert Penello did confirm that the system’s USB 3.0 port will support external storage, “which can be used for everything the internal storage can be used for” (including game installs and downloads)."

Mitch Connor

ShadowHearth wrote: »

The features you call next gen were nicely masked turd muffins.Even if such huge corporation had to come out with hands up and admit **** up, then you should not need a bigger prove.

I disagree with you.

Just because MS have backtracked due to poor pre-orders and consumer backlash, doesnt mean the features were without merit.

I freely admit I think MS went too far in their restrictions, but also think they have rolled back too far in response too.

There were ways to keep everyone happy but they have taken the easy way out, and removed some very nice features from the console.

Mudlan

Mitch Connor wrote: »

I freely admit I think MS went too far in their restrictions, but also think they have rolled back too far in response too.

There were ways to keep everyone happy but they have taken the easy way out, and removed some very nice features from the console.

Yup I agree with you too! Yes they were a little ahead of their time but the whole cloud thing is very interesting but will take a few years to see if it will work out or not. Some of the other features are pretty cool too but ppl arent ready for the change in console gaming.

ShadowHearth

Mitch Connor wrote: »

I disagree with you.

Just because MS have backtracked due to poor pre-orders and consumer backlash, doesnt mean the features were without merit.

I freely admit I think MS went too far in their restrictions, but also think they have rolled back too far in response too.

There were ways to keep everyone happy but they have taken the easy way out, and removed some very nice features from the console.

From The top of my head, I won't miss a single feature that is gone. In fact they got a sale from me after the changes.
The notion that NS did a 180 tells that a lot of people did not really cared about, so called next gen features, too. I am afraid you are in very small minority or you still don't understand how MS had you on a nice executive table and having a go at your bum.

Grumpypants

Mitch Connor wrote: »

I disagree with you.

Just because MS have backtracked due to poor pre-orders and consumer backlash, doesnt mean the features were without merit.

I freely admit I think MS went too far in their restrictions, but also think they have rolled back too far in response too.

There were ways to keep everyone happy but they have taken the easy way out, and removed some very nice features from the console.

What is funny is the back lash against the changes is now building. Poor MS they can't win.

They should have just had a day one opt in or out choice. If you opt in it checks every 24 hours. If you opt out it needs the disk and your xbox is set to that setting.

ussjtrunks

Still think they could sell the xbone for 399 if they had a sku without kinect hopefully they see sense

_Puma_

Possibly one of the biggest and most complete U-Turns from a technology company? Can anyone thing of another situation similar to this in the past? After all the PR and marketing from high up execs in the xbox division of this "Feature", for it to be so un-Ceremoniously dropped is quiet simply astounding and sounds to me like someone higher up in Microsoft going over their heads.

Speculation will be rife about what exactly is going on in Microsoft now. My take on it is that after E3 the preorders were monitored very closely, with reports that the PS4 was beating the Xbox one 2-1 in major sellers like Amazon and Gamestop, this must have set alarm bells ringing higher up in Microsoft. Let us remember that Microsoft, as a company, are more than likely relying on the new Xbox to be a success after the low uptake of Win8 and Win mobile. It will be simply disastrous for them if they lose out in another major pillar of their companies strategy.

As a PC and console gamer the Xbox one never appealed to me. It was quiet clear to me that MS wants the Xbone to be a media hub that plays games (just look at their reasoning behind the naming of the machine). The cheaper/Better performing and more game focused PS4 is what I will be going for when I am in the market for a new console, because that is what I want, a games console. I will purchasing the games console that gives me the best value for what I want. The DRM was a deal breaker for me and with its removal, perhaps sometime in the future I may consider the Xbone but as of now it is still the PS4 that is in pole position as a gaming machine for me.

gizmo

nesf wrote: »

There was a time, a good few years ago, where most games released both on Steam and as physical copies didn't require you to register the game with Steam if you installed it from a disc. You'd just enter the code as normal and away you'd go. Now if you wanted you could enter the serial code into Steam and have it synced across multiple machines but it was an option. People with serious issues with Steam's (light touch to be fair) DRM could opt-out and people who wanted a system to manage patching etc could opt-in.

That day is pretty much gone now, most games I've gotten in recent years as physical copies required me to register it on Steam for me to play it. I'm not sure if Microsoft could have gone the same route.

Indeed. The system, as it exists now, represents one of the most effective ways of enticing people onto digital downloads in my opinion. It's pretty much win win, you buy the disc in the store, use it to install the game thus saving yourself the hefty download and can then either chuck the disc or keep it for a re-install later all the while knowing it's tied to your account for access at any time on any PC.

I've then seen plenty of folk ask themselves why bother buying the disc in the first place since they weigh the convenience of the digital purchase as worth the download cost. So what happens for Steam et al then? They get their cut of the initial purchase instead of the retailer. From a platform owners perspective it's ****ing genius.

LookingFor wrote: »

They weren't a necessity for the extent of Microsoft's DRM.

I'd bet these features will return in an opt-in way. So you can opt to attach your disc to your account and do this stuff. Or not.

Well, yes and no. If they were going to allow you to tie a game to your account and not require the disc then some form of DRM would be required to handle both this and the ability to trade it in without keeping a working copy. If they had taken the single-user code approach then all they would have required is a connection to the server on activation and on deactivation though, not the constant 24hr checks. The removal of this feature along with the DRM is a pretty clear indication that this was their intention, however misguided.

In terms of their policy changing at a later date, I reckon it'll be in this area we'll see the change. They'll have either built or be well on their way to finishing the infrastructure which would allow this system so all they need to do later is say. "Hey guys, new feature! If you want to tie a game disc to your account you can do it by signing into Live! When you want to sell it, just reconnect and decouple it!" The downside to this is that the requirement to check that a code is "unused" will fall onto the retailers who will most likely be less than receptive to such an occurrence. That is, of course, if their solution to all of this included the serial as I mentioned above, without that knowledge it's pretty difficult to know for sure.

VinLieger

Rascasse wrote: »

If you don't want it, don't buy it. For many people, however, it is a selling point. Something like 24 million Kinect 1's have been sold in the last 3 years so people clearly have an interest and by making it integral to the system will only improve the experience further. Let us remember that the Wii sold far more than the Xbox or PS3 predominantly due to having an innovative interface that was integral to the experience.

Yes and how many Wiis were sitting useless gathering dust on a shelf 2-3 years after they were bought? I would guess alot from discussions on here and talking to people i know who own one

Rascasse wrote: »

It is also a bit of a leap to say the price difference is down to the Kinect. Without pricing the bill of materials for each product (like iFixit will) and without knowing if either is being subsidised you can't just say 'a is due to b'.

Well we know the PS3 is slightly more powerful has a higher grade of ram and isnt packaging motion controls into the box so its not that much of a leap really

Rascasse wrote: »

The 24 hour check was simply to facilitate the library sharing and remote sign in, that is all. Those were great benefits that are now gone to what quite frankly is faux outrage. Who was going to buy the console and not connect it to the internet? Many of the games will require a connection anyway due to cloud computing of AI and other elements.

Lol i bought that line from EA with Simcity and will never do so again, its nothing more than DRM.

Rascasse wrote: »

These changes have simply made the Xbox a weaker console, I'm not going to spend 400 or 500 on simply a spec bump. There are still plenty of very good current gen games that I haven't played yet.

And whos fault is that? This whole thing has been an abslute fiasco i cant even count the amount of mixed messaging and PR fuckups that have come out of Microsoft within the last 2 months. Sony had a cohessive message and one answer for everything. Microsoft had 5 different answers to every question depending on which department you talked to. Surely if they were going to try something new and innovative like this they should have taken the time to actually get their shit together and figure out what they wanted to say instead of the marketing fuckup that has been the Xbone announcement

Sierra Oscar

I suspect that Microsoft will cut the cost of the Xbox One before launch, only a matter of time!

NTMK

Mitch Connor wrote: »

I disagree with you.

Just because MS have backtracked due to poor pre-orders and consumer backlash, doesnt mean the features were without merit.

I freely admit I think MS went too far in their restrictions, but also think they have rolled back too far in response too.

There were ways to keep everyone happy but they have taken the easy way out, and removed some very nice features from the console.

but it speaks volumes about the features when they couldnt advertise them with out ****ing up

Family sharing is nice but how long before its abused and publishers decide they dont want it?

Cloud gaming is a farce sorry in the last 14 months we've seen 2 pc games try it and fail miserably one of which sold (sim city) a small amount compared to a console game.

Whos going to handle the computation MS? that can only end badly during christmas periods with all the games that come out. Publishers? EA/Blizzard/Ubisoft have all failed at it in single games

Discless games still exist but you have to buy from the marketplace (I assume)

Logging in on anyones console: Wonderful feature imo except when you realise a game will hit 40gb this gen in all likely hood and you'll have to download it with a 2-6mb connection in most cases

Steam like Sales: not a hope of that happening not enough competiton on a closed platform

These "features" were not designed for the customer rather to facilitate the war between retailers and publishers

The next gen will bring the same features that its always brought new graphics and better physics it hasnt served us to badly

Grumpypants

ShadowHearth wrote: »

From The top of my head, I won't miss a single feature that is gone. In fact they got a sale from me after the changes.
The notion that NS did a 180 tells that a lot of people did not really cared about, so called next gen features, too. I am afraid you are in very small minority or you still don't understand how MS had you on a nice executive table and having a go at your bum.

Lets say Steam introduced a new feature where for any PC disk based games you registered with them you had to have the disk in your PC to run your games? Would you think that was good. Or would you miss how convenient it is to install your games and put the disk on the shelf.

Azza

NTMK wrote:

Cloud gaming is a farce sorry in the last 14 months we've seen 2 pc games try it and fail miserably one of which sold (sim city) a small amount compared to a console game.

SimCity had sold 1.6 million as of May this year. Wouldn't surprise me if that figure was now over 2 million. That's excellent for a PC game. PC games sales figures generally don't match console sales figures. So the sales figures are hardly damning of cloud gaming.

NTMK wrote:

Whos going to handle the computation MS? that can only end badly during christmas periods with all the games that come out. Publishers? EA/Blizzard/Ubisoft have all failed at it in single games

With Ubisoft and Blizzard I think your confusing always online DRM with cloud computing.

There has been successful aspects to cloud gaming. Like Valve and EA have implemented saving to cloud in servers in Steam and Origin so you can sync to cloud anytime.

Grumpypants

_Puma_ wrote: »

The DRM was a deal breaker for me and with its removal, perhaps sometime in the future I may consider the Xbone but as of now it is still the PS4 that is in pole position as a gaming machine for me.

You do know that the PS4 has a more restrictive disk based DRM system on it.

The Xbox has not removed its DRM it has simple moved it from a simple background check that you would never notice that automatically happens once every 24 hours to one where you need to manually get up and put a disk into the machine to check the DRM every single time you want to play a game.

FlyingIrishMan

Grumpypants wrote: »

You do know that the PS4 has a more restrictive disk based DRM system on it.

The Xbox has not removed its DRM it has simple moved it from a simple background check that you would never notice that automatically happens once every 24 hours to one where you need to manually get up and put a disk into the machine to check the DRM every single time you want to play a game.

Explain to me how the PS4/One "DRM" version is different? They're both the exact same, and both are following the same as the PS3/360.

AirDemon

IF Microsoft want to make a games more reasonably priced then they can. They can use the marketplace to allow downloads at a much cheaper price, make the prices attractive and people will choose to download the games through the marketplace instead of buying them off disc.

Some people will still want a disc, me included, but you will slowly see a move towards the marketplace, cutting out Gamestop, etc.

The reasons I've heard for that is they have agreements with Gamestop and others about keeping the price at rrp. Well they will not have anything of the sort in place for the X1 so they have the chance to do it now. Make games cheaper on the marketplace and cut out Gamestop, there will be less people out there with second hand copies to sell too so they'll make more sales, in theory. This isn't a theory I agree with as I think used games sales push new games sales as opposed to hinder them.

None of this will happen, and it will have nothing to do with 24 hour checks or any of the drm. It will happen because Microsoft don't want to lower the price of games.

Calhoun

Grumpypants wrote: »

What is funny is the back lash against the changes is now building. Poor MS they can't win.

They should have just had a day one opt in or out choice. If you opt in it checks every 24 hours. If you opt out it needs the disk and your xbox is set to that setting.

I think this post hits the nail on the head, for me or why I was against it . They should have like steam has an opt in/out option, yes you need to register all games to steam, I don't mind as its all in one place but a key reason I adopted steam was that I could play offline if I choose to .

If I had the net connection ( on 5mb line) I would probably have used the always on option .

ShadowHearth

Grumpypants wrote: »

Lets say Steam introduced a new feature where for any PC disk based games you registered with them you had to have the disk in your PC to run your games? Would you think that was good. Or would you miss how convenient it is to install your games and put the disk on the shelf.

This Statement makes no sense at all.

NTMK

Azza wrote: »

SimCity had sold 1.6 million as of May this year. Wouldn't surprise me if that figure was now over 2 million. That's excellent for a PC game. PC games sales figures generally don't match console sales figures. So the sales figures are hardly damning of cloud gaming.

Relative to console its average for a AAA game. EA had a massive amount of Pre-orders they knew the game would break a million and still didnt have their servers up to scratch

With Ubisoft and Blizzard I think your confusing always online DRM with cloud computing.

Diablo 3 had a lot of computational stuff done server side and was down for the first 2 weeks (Error 37)

Ubisoft are incapable of doing an online check on a few hundred thousand games

There has been successful aspects to cloud gaming. Like Valve and EA have implemented saving to cloud in servers in Steam and Origin so you can sync to cloud anytime.

Cloud saving is wonderful dont get me wrong but that doesnt have to deal with the issues cloud computation has to deal with (load,Latency,Connection speeds)

Retr0gamer

Grumpypants wrote: »

The Xbox has not removed its DRM it has simple moved it from a simple background check that you would never notice that automatically happens once every 24 hours to one where you need to manually get up and put a disk into the machine to check the DRM every single time you want to play a game.

As people have we really gotten so lazy that getting up to put a disc in a machine is such a hard thing to do?

You're moaning about nothing because if you want the convenience of a disc-less system it's still there. You can buy every game from the marketplace. You'll just pay for it.

Magill

Grumpypants

ShadowHearth wrote: »

This Statement makes no sense at all.

You just said you will not miss any of the features that Microsoft just removed. One of the features removed was the ability to install a game from disk then play it without the disk in the same way steam works.

If steam removed that feature would you miss it?

It is strange to see the same people who have been harping on about how amazing PC gaming is because of digital gaming thanks to Steam are now popping up here saying a disk based DRM system is not something that concerns them.

Mr Freeze

Tell me they fired Don Mattrick!!!

That's a head I want to see roll.

FlyingIrishMan

Grumpypants wrote: »

You just said you will not miss any of the features that Microsoft just removed. One of the features removed was the ability to install a game from disk then play it without the disk in the same way steam works.

If steam removed that feature would you miss it?

Yes. But the option is still there to download all your games digitally.
I don't see the problem. If you don't want to handle discs just do everything digitally, both consoles are giving you the choice now.

Grumpypants

Retr0gamer wrote: »

As people have we really gotten so lazy that getting up to put a disc in a machine is such a hard thing to do?

You're moaning about nothing because if you want the convenience of a disc-less system it's still there. You can buy every game from the marketplace. You'll just pay for it.

I have crappy internet so downloading a 20gb file is not an option it took a week to download Crysis 3 . I want to just buy my games on disk. Install them then use the games in the same way Steam works right now.

Grumpypants

FlyingIrishMan wrote: »

Explain to me how the PS4/One "DRM" version is different? They're both the exact same, and both are following the same as the PS3/360.

Its not, that's my point. It was different but now its the same old system we have had for the last 13+ years.

JoePie

AirDemon wrote: »

IF Microsoft want to make a games more reasonably priced then they can. They can use the marketplace to allow downloads at a much cheaper price, make the prices attractive and people will choose to download the games through the marketplace instead of buying them off disc.

Some people will still want a disc, me included, but you will slowly see a move towards the marketplace, cutting out Gamestop, etc.

The reasons I've heard for that is they have agreements with Gamestop and others about keeping the price at rrp. Well they will not have anything of the sort in place for the X1 so they have the chance to do it now. Make games cheaper on the marketplace and cut out Gamestop, there will be less people out there with second hand copies to sell too so they'll make more sales, in theory. This isn't a theory I agree with as I think used games sales push new games sales as opposed to hinder them.

None of this will happen, and it will have nothing to do with 24 hour checks or any of the drm. It will happen because Microsoft don't want to lower the price of games.

Fair enough you can cut out Gamestop, I agree with you there. BUT. The big point you're missing is: hardware sales. Gamestop sell the hardware. They sell the games. MS drop the price of retail games through digital download, therefore undercutting Gamestop and you don't have to go to the store anymore. And Gamestop won't be too happy about this. They don't HAVE to stock or sell consoles, which is the threat they will come back with. A lot of people still won't buy online, and kids shouldn't really have access to credit cards, so brick and mortar will always be needed. At least for the foreseeable future. And if you don't play nice with them, there's nothing stopping them turning around and giving Microsoft, Sony, Nintendo or whoever 2 fingers, and cutting their product lines from their stores. And that's the threat that hangs.

Whether you get a game through digital download or physical purchase, the developers/publishers are not going to get 100% of the sale. Outside of the usual taxes and such, either the retailer or the platform owner gets a cut. The problem with used games is that the retailer then take 100% of the cash from the sale of a pre-owned game. The dev/publishers do not get a cut, so effectively they have lost out on a sale. Given that game budgets have blown up in the last few years, these smaller studios need these sales to stay in business. But it's hard to change the consumer mindset when all they see is "the same, but cheaper."

C14N

Mitch Connor wrote: »

But thanks to the poor selling and outrage - MS were trying to provide a real change to the way console games were played. To me the features we have lost are the real next gen features.

Well I'm sure MS will consider Kinect a "next gen" feature for better or worse. I would consider Sony's Gaikai service to be pretty next-gen if it ever makes it over here too.

The only thing we're losing really is the game sharing feature and we don't really know how that would have worked out.

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Wish they could have provided the choice - so that people who are happy to have their console perform a quick handshake with MS once a day could still have had the features that were unveiled.

I really don't know why they didn't do this, it would have been perfect. That way they would still get tons of people onto their more controlled system over time.

Grumpypants wrote: »

Lets say Steam introduced a new feature where for any PC disk based games you registered with them you had to have the disk in your PC to run your games? Would you think that was good. Or would you miss how convenient it is to install your games and put the disk on the shelf.

There's other factors to consider. If it meant a game wasn't tied to my account and I could give it to a friend (or vice versa), I probably wouldn't mind. As it is, pretty much every PC game I ever buy is dirt cheap (rarely over €25) so I don't really mind not getting to share with others or trade it in.

Azza wrote: »

There has been successful aspects to cloud gaming. Like Valve and EA have implemented saving to cloud in servers in Steam and Origin so you can sync to cloud anytime.

There's no reason MS can't still do that though, Sony do it now with the PS3 (if you have PS+).

_Puma_

Grumpypants wrote: »

You do know that the PS4 has a more restrictive disk based DRM system on it.

The Xbox has not removed its DRM it has simple moved it from a simple background check that you would never notice that automatically happens once every 24 hours to one where you need to manually get up and put a disk into the machine to check the DRM every single time you want to play a game.

You mean they have removed the extra layer of DRM to revert back to what is built in inherently on discs already and how it has worked for every single games console and most application software up to now.

If the future is all online based then we will not have discs at all. They know we are not there yet but still they tried to pass this used game DRM policy off as "The online future". They could have allowed you to use the Disc if you had no net connection but there would be no way to enforce the used game policy then.

In any case if you want to go all online the option is there in the marketplace.

Personally I find putting a disc in and checking a simple variable locally when I have the disc is far simpler than connecting to a drm server(That may or may not go down or your own connection goes down). The DRM the Xbone had was not their to make a consumers life easier, it was their as an extra layer to enforce their new used games policy.

As for the sharing feature it was a nice idea but I don't think they fully thought it through. I wouldn't be surprised if publishers were up in arms about the potential to half their sales revenue.*Edit perhaps if they were serious about it we may see it appear for Digital sales as an incentive*

PS4 has no online DRM it uses what is there already on discs. I don't connect my console to the internet I can still play my games, simple.