Drone Strikes

Jonny7

Well I've taken those figures from published studies

What are the real figures so and please provide sources?

As for callous? well I'd disagree, have been following the conflict for almost 10 years now, I'm concerned for all those in Afghanistan and NW Pakistan affected by both wars - hence my view will obviously differ from those who are selectively concerned typically for political reasons alone

bumper234

Jonny7 wrote: »

Well I've taken those figures from published studies

What are the real figures so and please provide sources?

As for callous? well I'd disagree, have been following the conflict for almost 10 years now, I'm concerned for all those in Afghanistan and NW Pakistan affected by both wars - hence my view will obviously differ from those who are selectively concerned typically for political reasons alone

Yet you still actively agree with drone strikes even though countless innocent men, women and children have been killed.

Jonny7

bumper234 wrote: »

Yet you still actively agree with drone strikes even though countless innocent men, women and children have been killed.

No I don't agree with drone strikes in the long term as I've explained and given reasons for

However, in the short run, it's a grim choice, but the damage done (in terms of civilians killed and injured) by the militants is significantly higher than the damage done by drones

bumper234

Jonny7 wrote: »

No I don't agree with drone strikes in the long term as I've explained and given reasons for

However, in the short run, it's a grim choice, but the damage done (in terms of civilians killed and injured) by the militants is significantly higher than the damage done by drones

That's just political speak for "It's better to kill one militant and 5 innocent civilians than let the militant go".

Jonny7

bumper234 wrote: »

That's just political speak for "It's better to kill one militant and 5 innocent civilians than let the militant go".

Well it's the reality.

If you have another way to deal with militants who target and kill thousands of church-goers, school-children, university students, teachers ..

Perhaps ignore them? perhaps make fruitless peace deals with religious warriors who have utterly nothing they want to bargain for? perhaps use conventional weaponry that will kill many more innocents?

Wash hands of it and walk away? let someone else deal with the problem?

bumper234

Jonny7 wrote: »

Well it's the reality.

If you have another way to deal with militants who target and kill thousands of church-goers, school-children, university students, teachers ..

Perhaps ignore them? perhaps make fruitless peace deals with religious warriors who have utterly nothing they want to bargain for? perhaps use conventional weaponry that will kill many more innocents?

Wash hands of it and walk away? let someone else deal with the problem?

Hard to do this when the US insist on ignoring requests of the Pakistani government to NOT kill AQ leaders as there are peace talks starting and then the US goes and hits the people involved with a drone strike.

Jonny7

"peace talks"

You are quite possibly referring to Hakeemullah Mehsud who was leader of the Pakistani Taliban..


"Among other terrorist outrages he had carried out a senselessly brutal suicide bombing campaign against civilians in Pakistan that slaughtered up to 3,000 last year in a slow motion version of 9/11, he led a secessionist terrorist organization that transformed his breakaway region of North Waziristan into a harsh shariah Islamic law prison camp for its long-suffering people, his followers attacked NATO convoys travelling through the neighboring tribal region of Khyber and burnt hundreds of transport trucks, one of his followers tried to set of a car bomb in Times Square in 2010, he deployed a suicide bomber that wiped out a CIA team in Afghanistan in 2009, his Taliban fighters butchered thousands of Shiite "heretics" in their region, he played a key role in the defeat of Pakistani troops that tried to reconquer his secessionist region which is often known as Talibanistan, his followers burnt over 400 schools in Pakistan as part of their anti-education campaign, his forces conquered territory within a hundred miles of the Pakistani capital of Islamabad, his followers killed activists who were trying to combat the spread of polio in North Waziristan, and he was actively involved in efforts to overthrow the Pakistani government and enforce a strict Taliban theocracy for all of Pakistan"
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/brian-glyn-williams/the-killing-of-hakimullah_b_4225444.html


Hakimullah Mehsud rose to notoriety for his attacks on the Pakistan army. In 2007, just as the Pakistani Taliban was establishing itself as the biggest threat to Pakistan's security, he engineered the kidnapping of some 250 Pakistani soldiers in a valley in South Waziristan. The soldiers were held hostage until a prisoner exchange was secured, but the Shias among them were brutally slain.

"Do you know what they did?" a retired army general asked incredulously, before describing Hakimullah Mehsud's trademark brutality. "They would take a sword and cut across both sides of the body. Then they ripped off the Shia soldiers' heads."
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/obituaries/hakimullah-mehsud-leader-of-the-pakistani-taliban-who-was-killed-by-a-us-drone-strike-8921464.html

bumper234

Jonny7 wrote: »

"peace talks"

You are quite possibly referring to Hakeemullah Mehsud who was leader of the Pakistani Taliban..


"Among other terrorist outrages he had carried out a senselessly brutal suicide bombing campaign against civilians in Pakistan that slaughtered up to 3,000 last year in a slow motion version of 9/11, he led a secessionist terrorist organization that transformed his breakaway region of North Waziristan into a harsh shariah Islamic law prison camp for its long-suffering people, his followers attacked NATO convoys travelling through the neighboring tribal region of Khyber and burnt hundreds of transport trucks, one of his followers tried to set of a car bomb in Times Square in 2010, he deployed a suicide bomber that wiped out a CIA team in Afghanistan in 2009, his Taliban fighters butchered thousands of Shiite "heretics" in their region, he played a key role in the defeat of Pakistani troops that tried to reconquer his secessionist region which is often known as Talibanistan, his followers burnt over 400 schools in Pakistan as part of their anti-education campaign, his forces conquered territory within a hundred miles of the Pakistani capital of Islamabad, his followers killed activists who were trying to combat the spread of polio in North Waziristan, and he was actively involved in efforts to overthrow the Pakistani government and enforce a strict Taliban theocracy for all of Pakistan"
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/brian-glyn-williams/the-killing-of-hakimullah_b_4225444.html


Hakimullah Mehsud rose to notoriety for his attacks on the Pakistan army. In 2007, just as the Pakistani Taliban was establishing itself as the biggest threat to Pakistan's security, he engineered the kidnapping of some 250 Pakistani soldiers in a valley in South Waziristan. The soldiers were held hostage until a prisoner exchange was secured, but the Shias among them were brutally slain.

"Do you know what they did?" a retired army general asked incredulously, before describing Hakimullah Mehsud's trademark brutality. "They would take a sword and cut across both sides of the body. Then they ripped off the Shia soldiers' heads."
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/obituaries/hakimullah-mehsud-leader-of-the-pakistani-taliban-who-was-killed-by-a-us-drone-strike-8921464.html

State sponsored assassination at it's finest right there, but when the US does it it's ok. So how many more innocent children do you think should die before drone strikes are stopped?

bumper234

Another day another innocent child gets murdered by the American military.


http://mobile.nytimes.com/2013/11/30/world/asia/drone-strike-in-afghanistan.html


The coalition spokesman confirmed that two drone incidents had taken place in Helmand Province on Thursday. The first, in Garmsir District, targeted an insurgent commander traveling on a motorcycle, but missed him and apparently hit civilians; one child was reported killed and two women were severely wounded. 

Jonny7

Selective concern.

Hundreds of men women and children were killed and wounded this month, many by militants and terrorist attacks. Civilian deaths from drones represent a very small percentage of that.

bumper234

Jonny7 wrote: »

Selective concern.

Hundreds of men women and children were killed and wounded this month, many by militants and terrorist attacks. Civilian deaths from drones represent a very small percentage of that.

So you are basically saying that the death of that child is worth it?

Why no drone strikes in Jordan, Saudi Arabia or Iran? Most of the 9-11 bombers came from Saudi yet no drone strikes there. Shocking how America can call people terrorists yet commit terrorist acts with impunity.

Jonny7

bumper234 wrote: »

Why no drone strikes in Jordan, Saudi Arabia or Iran?

Situation.

Pakistan is in the midst of a war. More die per month there than in terrorist attacks in Saudi, Iran and Jordan combined in the last 5 years. The militants in the north of the Pakistan are not only killing Pakistani civilians, but also poring across the border into Afghanistan and directly killing civilians there, as well as attacking NATO and US forces.

Pakistan is unable to deal with this problem. Their army simply doesn't have the tech to target the Taliban and groups like Haqanni who shelter in Pakistan. It suits both Pakistan and the US to use drones to target these groups who are responsible for the deaths of thousands.

Other countries like Yemen seek out US help because drones are one of the most effective ways of dealing with violent extremists.

bumper234

Jonny7 wrote: »

Situation.

Pakistan is in the midst of a war. More die per month there than in terrorist attacks in Saudi, Iran and Jordan combined in the last 5 years. The militants in the north of the Pakistan are not only killing Pakistani civilians, but also poring across the border into Afghanistan and directly killing civilians there, as well as attacking NATO and US forces.

Pakistan is unable to deal with this problem. Their army simply doesn't have the tech to target the Taliban and groups like Haqanni who shelter in Pakistan. It suits both Pakistan and the US to use drones to target these groups who are responsible for the deaths of thousands.

Other countries like Yemen seek out US help because drones are one of the most effective ways of dealing with violent extremists.

The irony of it being that the militants are killing civilians for supporting Americas illegal war. Saying "militants" or "terrorist" in every post does not take away from the fact that YET AGAIN the American military machine has murdered an innocent child by blowing them to bits. And then you wonder where the militants come from?

If that was your little daughter, sister or neice who had been indiscriminately blown to bits would you not be ripe for recruitment into AQ? Dont know what sickens me most, the fact that America gets away with murdering innocent kids or the fact there are people willing to defend these murders.

Jonny7

bumper234 wrote: »

The irony of it being that the militants are killing civilians for supporting Americas illegal war. Saying "militants" or "terrorist" in every post does not take away from the fact that YET AGAIN the American military machine has murdered an innocent child by blowing them to bits. And then you wonder where the militants come from?

If that was your little daughter, sister or neice who had been indiscriminately blown to bits would you not be ripe for recruitment into AQ? Dont know what sickens me most, the fact that America gets away with murdering innocent kids or the fact there are people willing to defend these murders.

The militants (for use of a half dozen names and acronyms) and religious extremists who carry out the attacks are deliberately trying to inflict as much damage as possible, this is why they target markets, snooker halls, Shi'ite gatherings and so on.

The US (and Pakistan) are not targeting civilians, they are targeting these very militants. Unfortunately, due to the nature of the conflict, people get caught up. In recent years this has improved a lot, sadly though, it seems unavoidable.

bumper234

Jonny7 wrote: »

The militants (for use of a half dozen names and acronyms) and religious extremists who carry out the attacks are deliberately trying to inflict as much damage as possible, this is why they target markets, snooker halls, Shi'ite gatherings and so on.[b/]

Unlike the US drone strikes that target innocent people working in a field

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/oct/29/pakistan-family-drone-victim-testimony-congress

The US (and Pakistan) are not targeting civilians, they are targeting these very militants. Unfortunately, due to the nature of the conflict, people get caught up. In recent years this has improved a lot, sadly though, it seems unavoidable.

So basically you are saying tough ****, people die. What would be the reaction I wonder if it was innocent American children being blown to bits.

Jonny7

bumper234 wrote: »

Unlike the US drone strikes that target innocent people working in a field

They aren't targeting innocent people. It's the other way round, innocent people are unfortunately getting killed when militants are targeted.

I wonder if it was innocent American children being blown to bits.

Well if you are going to envoke emotional comparisons..

Any deaths are a tragedy, but it would be a little odd, for example, to be disproportionally blaming the US police for inadvertently killing innocent bystanders whilst trying to deal with a massive school shooting.

And it would definitely be wrong to do so based on political/partisan beliefs (constantly critical of the police)

bumper234

Jonny7 wrote: »

They aren't targeting innocent people. It's the other way round, innocent people are unfortunately getting killed when militants are targeted.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/oct/29/pakistan-family-drone-victim-testimony-congress

Which militant were they targeting?

The family of a 67-year-old midwife from a remote village in North Waziristan told lawmakers on Tuesday about her death and the "CIA drone" they say was responsible. 

"Nobody has ever told me why my mother was targeted that day," Rehman said, through a translator. "Some media outlets reported that the attack was on a car, but there is no road alongside my mother’s house. Others reported that the attack was on a house. But the missiles hit a nearby field, not a house. All of them reported that three, four, five militants were killed."Instead, he said, only one person was killed that day: "Not a militant but my mother."

An Amnesty International report, published last week, lists Bibi among 900 civilians they say have been killed by drone strikes, a far higher number than previously reported. The Amnesty report said the US may have committed war crimes and should stand trial for its actions.

The US has repeatedly claimed very few civilians have been killed by drones. It argues its campaign is conducted "consistent with all applicable domestic and international law". Unofficial reports, however, have suggested that hundreds have been killed in Pakistan alone, with up to 200 children killed.

He said that his mother was not the first innocent victim of drone strike, but that "dozens of people in my own tribe that I know are merely ordinary tribesman had been killed". He said that numerous families in his community and the surrounding area had lost loved ones, including women and children over the years.

Jonny7

bumper234 wrote: »

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/oct/29/pakistan-family-drone-victim-testimony-congress

Which militant were they targeting?

The family of a 67-year-old midwife from a remote village in North Waziristan told lawmakers on Tuesday about her death and the "CIA drone" they say was responsible. 

"Nobody has ever told me why my mother was targeted that day," Rehman said, through a translator. "Some media outlets reported that the attack was on a car, but there is no road alongside my mother’s house. Others reported that the attack was on a house. But the missiles hit a nearby field, not a house. All of them reported that three, four, five militants were killed."Instead, he said, only one person was killed that day: "Not a militant but my mother."

An Amnesty International report, published last week, lists Bibi among 900 civilians they say have been killed by drone strikes, a far higher number than previously reported. The Amnesty report said the US may have committed war crimes and should stand trial for its actions.

The US has repeatedly claimed very few civilians have been killed by drones. It argues its campaign is conducted "consistent with all applicable domestic and international law". Unofficial reports, however, have suggested that hundreds have been killed in Pakistan alone, with up to 200 children killed.

He said that his mother was not the first innocent victim of drone strike, but that "dozens of people in my own tribe that I know are merely ordinary tribesman had been killed". He said that numerous families in his community and the surrounding area had lost loved ones, including women and children over the years.

She wasn't targeted. They aren't using multi-million dollar platforms to target farmers.

This is actually getting surreal.

bumper234

Jonny7 wrote: »

She wasn't targeted. They aren't using multi-million dollar platforms to target farmers.

This is actually getting surreal.

So who was targeted? Are you saying it was a misfire? Because there were 2 missiles fired! Will the American government admit that this woman was murdered? Will they hand over the pilot of this drone who fired these missiles and have them stand trial for murder (and possibly war crimes)? Will they explain why a woman working in a field was targeted for elimination and blown to bits?

What's surreal is the fact that the American military are murdering civilians on an almost daily basis and when questioned they just throw in the words militant and terrorist and expect everyone to accept that excuse.

Jonny7

bumper234 wrote: »

So who was targeted? Are you saying it was a misfire? Because there were 2 missiles fired! Will the American government admit that this woman was murdered? Will they hand over the pilot of this drone who fired these missiles and have them stand trial for murder (and possibly war crimes)? Will they explain why a woman working in a field was targeted for elimination and blown to bits?

They don't sit down and plan pre-meditated murder against farmers with weaponry that is designed to cause the least amount of civilian casualties possible.

What's surreal is the fact that the American military are murdering civilians on an almost daily basis and when questioned they just throw in the words militant and terrorist and expect everyone to accept that excuse.

The US nor the UK nor any of the almost 50 nations that have been involved in Afghanistan have any interest in killing civilians. Not for military, political or any other reason.

Manic Moran

bumper234 wrote: »

So who was targeted?

Hell if I know. And unless the midwife's family happen to know someone working in the J-3 shop, I strongly doubt that they know either.

Will the American government admit that this woman was murdered? Will they hand over the pilot of this drone who fired these missiles and have them stand trial for murder (and possibly war crimes)?

No.

Will they explain why a woman working in a field was targeted for elimination and blown to bits?

Doubtful, at least to the public. They won't want to reveal sources. I wouldn't be surprised if certain personnel in IB, at least, were informed. Heck, maybe IB were the source.

bumper234

Jonny7 wrote: »

They don't sit down and plan pre-meditated murder against farmers with weaponry that is designed to cause the least amount of civilian casualties possible.



The US nor the UK nor any of the almost 50 nations that have been involved in Afghanistan have any interest in killing civilians. Not for military, political or any other reason.

Yet they manage to do it on an almost daily basis. Why were 2 missiles fired at that woman as she worked in a field? Do you think that it's ok to kill some poor innocent woman who is going about her business because in the eyes of most that would be considered TERRORISM!

Saying that the US military does not deliberately target citizens is a no brainer, the problem is that these drone strikes CONSISTENTLY kill innocent men women and children. It's getting to the stage where America is being seen worldwide as the biggest terrorist's on the block. If Russia, China, North Korea or Iran where to accidentally start killing civilians in their "war on terror" the American government would have a field day declaring these killings to be illegal and possible war crimes bit when they are doing it they just shrug shoulders and say ah well.

Jonny7

bumper234 wrote: »

Yet they manage to do it on an almost daily basis. Why were 2 missiles fired at that woman as she worked in a field? Do you think that it's ok to kill some poor innocent woman who is going about her business because in the eyes of most that would be considered TERRORISM!

You are just isolating an incident of your choosing to highlight an emotional cause. You are leaving out the context. It's very important.

Like discussing only the Israeli casualties during operation Cast Lead (ignoring the hundreds of Palestinian deaths) Or expressing outrage at only the innocent casualties inflicted by Hezbollah during the 2006 Lebanese conflict

bumper234

Jonny7 wrote: »

You are just isolating an incident of your choosing to highlight an emotional cause. You are leaving out the context. It's very important.

Like discussing only the Israeli casualties during operation Cast Lead (ignoring the hundreds of Palestinian deaths) Or expressing outrage at only the innocent casualties inflicted by Hezbollah during the 2006 Lebanese conflict

I (and others) have pointed out countless incidents of American drone strikes killing innocent men, women and children so please don't say i am isolating one incident. The context is that the drone pilot saw people in a field and without confirming 100% that they were anything other than innocent people fired two missiles at them causing their deaths.

This is not about Israel or Hezbolla (start a new thread if you wish to discuss that) this is about America's foreign policy and the terroristic actions that it chooses to use against the innocent civilian population of Pakistan.

bumper234

Oh look here yet ANOTHER drone strike that manages to blow an innocent TWO YEAR OLD CHILD to bits. Well done America I wonder how many gave thanks for that on thanksgiving day.


http://m.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/coalition-apologizes-for-killing-afghan-child-karzai-warns-security-deal-in-jeopardy/2013/11/29/f73d2b06-58ed-11e3-8304-caf30787c0a9_story.html?hpid=z1


KABUL — The U.S.-led coalition in Afghanistan apologized Friday for mistakenly killing a 2-year-old boy during an airstrike, the latest crisis to confront American officials hoping to finalize a long-term security agreement between the two countries.


Karzai said a suspected U.S. drone fired into a house shortly before noon Thursday in the southern province of Helmand. The coalition acknowledged the incident Friday morning, saying that a child was apparently killed during an operation targeting “an insurgent riding a motorbike.”

I honestly have to wonder who it is you work for that you can come here every day and defend these murders.

Jonny7

bumper234 wrote: »

I honestly have to wonder who it is you work for that you can come here every day and defend these murders.

What do you mean by this?

bumper234

Jonny7 wrote: »

What do you mean by this?

That's the only part you took from that last post. Mighty fine tunnel vision you have going there, gloss over the fact that a 2 year old has been murdered and jump on the one line that you see as a slight to you :rolleyes:

Jonny7

I don't need to grave-dance to make my argument. All the deaths and injuries in Afghanistan and Pakistan are an absolute tragedy - selecting those that suit an argument and ignoring the majority that don't is pretty weak

I highlighted the last comment because it's veering into conspiracy theory territory, somewhere I ain't going (again)

Anyway point made

Be like Nutella

This is the best breakdown of the issues involved that I've seen so far if anyone's interested

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TLBDqy6pj28

bumper234

Interesting articles on drone strikes and why they are wrong.


http://mwcnews.net/focus/politics/33942-children-in-afghanistan.html


http://m.buckscountycouriertimes.com/opinion/op-ed/murder-the-immorality-of-drone-attacks/article_a2436bd7-78cb-53a4-bfdb-8dfa54492721.html?mode=jqm


http://www.allgov.com/news/us-and-the-world/civilian-afghan-deaths-from-us-drone-strikes-continue-to-build-hatred-of-us-131204?news=851822

bumper234

And yet more innocent civilians are blown to bits by an air strike in Yemen.


http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSBRE9BB10O20131212?irpc=932

Black Swan

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bumper234

15 INNOCENT civilians killed in Yemen, That's more innocent people killed in ONE air strike than have died from terrorism in this decade. How is killing 15 innocent people on their way to a wedding not being called murder? Why is the person who fired these rockets not being arrested and charged with murder? And then the US wonders why young people want to go off and join the likes of AQ?

Eggy Baby!

There's a thin line between the USA and the terrorists.....both see civilian casualties as necessary and given in their twisted vision of the 'greater good'.

I've even heard US propagandists say that in order to democratise a country, people will inevitably be sacrificed on the way. Twisted, twisted thinking.

bumper234

Eggy Baby! wrote: »

There's a thin line between the USA and the terrorists.....both see civilian casualties as necessary and given in their twisted vision of the 'greater good'.

I've even heard US propagandists say that in order to democratise a country, people will inevitably be sacrificed on the way. Twisted, twisted thinking.

This has gone beyond innocent civilian casualties during "war" (America is not at war with Yemen though) and is blatant murder. They say it was an accident and they were targeting someone else but that is still targeted MURDER by the US government:mad:

Eggy Baby!

bumper234 wrote: »

This has gone beyond innocent civilian casualties during "war" (America is not at war with Yemen though) and is blatant murder. They say it was an accident and they were targeting someone else but that is still targeted MURDER by the US government:mad:

The fact that they use highly explosive weapons shows that they see civilian casualties as a necessary consequence of their wars. The fact that their weapons are getting more precise is irrelevant, because precise weapons are still susceptible to human error. If a bomb is dropped "precisely" on a civilian, what is the point of precision?

And besides, they only make their weapons more precise so that there won't be public uproar at home (so they can continue to wage their endless wars hand-in-hand with arms companies like Lockheed Martin etc. etc. who make a f*ckload out of these wars).

bumper234

So after 17 innocent people were blown to bits last week Yemen has banned drone strikes on it's soil. Anyone think that the US military machine will respect this order?


http://news.yahoo.com/yemen-parliament-bans-drone-attacks-194832509.html

Be like Nutella

A day will come when somebody at the CIA will be able to look back on the unethical slaughter which is drone strikes, and he or she will have access to the detail of the stories of 500+ strikes and be able to see exactly how many were wedding parties
schools
tribal meetings
families eating dinner
kids playing in a field
guns that turned out to be sticks
dogs that turned out to be 2 year olds
informant supplied HUMINT which turned out to be bogus for reasons of vengeance or greed
rushed Ops based on knowingly shaky Intel
broad strike signature strikes
were double taps on first responders
purposeful strikes on funerals of drone victims

and it will amount to a big folder of war crimes…. prosecutable under war crimes logic but with the irony being there IS no war… but there sure as hell are crimes.

The utter myopically misguided hubris which is Pre-Crime Drone Strikes… funded entirely by 9/11 grief and fear.

To do something because you Can not because you SHOULD is the easiest option….but rarely the right choice.

What precedent, is being so irresponsibly set for the next countries to use Drone Strikes on whomever they deem a future threat under this astonishingly unethical preemptive summary execution theory? China, Russia, India, Pakistan ALL have weaponized drones coming ‘online’ in the next couple years.

This sh1t is madness.

bumper234

Be like Nutella wrote: »

A day will come when somebody at the CIA will be able to look back on the unethical slaughter which is drone strikes, and he or she will have access to the detail of the stories of 500+ strikes and be able to see exactly how many were wedding parties
schools
tribal meetings
families eating dinner
kids playing in a field
guns that turned out to be sticks
dogs that turned out to be 2 year olds
informant supplied HUMINT which turned out to be bogus for reasons of vengeance or greed
rushed Ops based on knowingly shaky Intel
broad strike signature strikes
were double taps on first responders
purposeful strikes on funerals of drone victims

and it will amount to a big folder of war crimes…. prosecutable under war crimes logic but with the irony being there IS no war… but there sure as hell are crimes.

The utter myopically misguided hubris which is Pre-Crime Drone Strikes… funded entirely by 9/11 grief and fear.

To do something because you Can not because you SHOULD is the easiest option….but rarely the right choice.

What precedent, is being so irresponsibly set for the next countries to use Drone Strikes on whomever they deem a future threat under this astonishingly unethical preemptive summary execution theory? China, Russia, India, Pakistan ALL have weaponized drones coming ‘online’ in the next couple years.

This sh1t is madness.

And the day one of those countries hits a wedding convoy/funeral/barbecue will be the day the American government will be shouting the loudest. I wounder what the reaction would be if it had been 17 innocent American civilians killed?

bumper234

The US went to war with Iraq and AQ over 9-11. I wonder if they will star with Saudi Arabia now that proof is starting to come out about their role in the attacks?


http://nypost.com/2013/12/15/inside-the-saudi-911-coverup/


The Saudis deny any role in 9/11, but the CIA in one memo reportedly found “incontrovertible evidence” that Saudi government officials — not just wealthy Saudi hardliners, but high-level diplomats and intelligence officers employed by the kingdom — helped the hijackers both financially and logistically. The intelligence files cited in the report directly implicate the Saudi embassy in Washington and consulate in Los Angeles in the attacks, making 9/11 not just an act of terrorism, but an act of war.Modal TriggerThe findings, if confirmed, would back up open-source reporting showing the hijackers had, at a minimum, ties to several Saudi officials and agents while they were preparing for their attacks inside the United States,

two wheels good

This will be of interest. (Apologies if already posted)

Dirty Wars documentary (2013)

"Investigative journalist Jeremy Scahill is pulled into an unexpected journey as he chases down the hidden truth behind America's expanding covert wars."

bumper234

two wheels good wrote: »

This will be of interest. (Apologies if already posted)

Dirty Wars documentary (2013)

"Investigative journalist Jeremy Scahill is pulled into an unexpected journey as he chases down the hidden truth behind America's expanding covert wars."

Have downloaded this and hope to watch tomorrow evening

Be like Nutella

it's absolutely excellent
up for an Oscar I think I heard maybe wrong

Four years ago today, US cruise missiles killed 41 people in Yemen !!

14 women
21 kids.

This is not to shock... but it is shocking though and it is relevant!

http://truth-out.org/progressivepicks/item/16551-jeremy-scahill-recounts-how-the-us-dirty-wars-killed-women-and-children-in-a-yemeni-village

"When we went there, we could not believe our eyes. I mean, if somebody had a weak heart, I think he would collapse. You see goats and sheep all over, you see the heads of those who were killed here and there. You see their bodies, you see children. I mean some of them, they were not hit immediately, but by the fire, they were burned," he told me. Body parts were strewn around the village. "You could not tell if this meat belongs to animals or to human beings," he remembered. They tried to gather what body parts they could to bury the dead. "Some of the meat we could not reach, even. It was eaten by the birds." As bin Fareed surveyed the carnage, most of the victims he saw were women and children. "They were all children, old women, all kinds of sheep and goats and cows. Unbelievable." He examined the site and found no evidence that there was anything even vaguely resembling a training camp. "Why did they do this? Why in the hell are they doing this?" he asked. "There are no [weapons] stores, there is no field for training. There is nobody, except a very poor tribe, one of the poorest tribes in the south."

two wheels good

bumper234 wrote: »

The US went to war with Iraq and AQ over 9-11. I wonder if they will star with Saudi Arabia now that proof is starting to come out about their role in the attacks?


http://nypost.com/2013/12/15/inside-the-saudi-911-coverup/

Thanks, interesting. It mentions the radical cleric Anwar al-Awlaki who was killed in a drone attack in Yemen. Then, two weeks later, his 16yr old son, a US citizen, suffered the same fate whilst sitting in a cafe with friends.
The story is related in the film Dirty Wars, I mentioned earlier.

Overheal

http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/12/19/the-aftermath-of-drone-strikes-on-a-wedding-convoy-in-yemen/?_r=0

another one,

and I could be wrong about this but apparently media outlets are loudly carrying a non-issue about a Duck Dynasty star's homophobic gaff in a magazine interview, rather than report on this material.

bumper234

Amazing how the pro-drone strike fanboys have disappeared since the drone strike that killed 15 innocent people in the wedding convoy.

I wonder if any will have balls to comment on the following article written by a drone pilot?


http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/dec/29/drones-us-military


I worked on the US drone program. The public should know what really goes on

Few of the politicians who so brazenly proclaim the benefits of drones have a real clue how it actually works (and doesn't)

Balaclava1991

bumper234 wrote: »

Amazing how the pro-drone strike fanboys have disappeared since the drone strike that killed 15 innocent people in the wedding convoy.

I wonder if any will have balls to comment on the following article written by a drone pilot?


http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/dec/29/drones-us-military


I worked on the US drone program. The public should know what really goes on

Few of the politicians who so brazenly proclaim the benefits of drones have a real clue how it actually works (and doesn't)

This is war.
The enemy are various Islamic fundamentalist groups who live in lawless regions of the world where they can only be reached with great difficulty and at great expense in American lives if drones were not available to kill them.
Leaving them free to operate is not an option as eventually they will mount attacks on the West.
The terrorists live among the civilian population - they live in cities and towns and villages and they are surrounded by family members and unsuspecting innocents.
Often mistakes are made and innocents die.
But the terrorists still have to be killed.
There is no way to do this without it being messy.
I've seen the photos and videos of drone strikes and I know all about the human cost.
The alternative is carpet bombing these countries into ashes or putting boots on the ground.
That is not politically palatable so it must be kept secret from an immature and childish public.
The Western public want to live in freedom and free of terrorist attack and scream bloody murder at their governments because of the methods they must use to stop terrorism and maintain their freedom.

I think you are utterly naive and childish.

bumper234

Balaclava1991 wrote: »

This is war.
The enemy are various Islamic fundamentalist groups who live in lawless regions of the world where they can only be reached with great difficulty and at great expense in American lives if drones were not available to kill them.

Really? Who are America at "war" with? The Afghan people? The Pakistani people? The Yemeni people? If these insurgents cannot be killed WITHOUT blowing Innocent children to bits then maybe boots on the ground should be implemented. Or is one dead American soldier worth more than some poor brown children?

Leaving them free to operate is not an option as eventually they will mount attacks on the West.

Really? Because I would love to see your source on this, please show me how many terrorist attacks have taken place in the west by poor farmers from the above named countries.

The terrorists live among the civilian population - they live in cities and towns and villages and they are surrounded by family members and unsuspecting innocents.
Often mistakes are made and innocents die.

You mean the people you call insurgents but are really people who are trying to remove an invading army?

But the terrorists still have to be killed.
There is no way to do this without it being messy.

Again you call them terrorists, the go to word for American politicians to explain EVERYTHING.

I've seen the photos and videos of drone strikes and I know all about the human cost.

Looking at photographs and video clips is not knowing all about the human cost of drone strikes, when your 5 year old daughter, sister, niece is blown to bits In front of you, THAT'S knowing the the human cost of drone strikes!

The alternative is carpet bombing these countries into ashes or putting boots on the ground.
That is not politically palatable so it must be kept secret from an immature and childish public.
The !Western public want to live in freedom and free of terrorist attack and scream bloody murder at their governments because of the methods they must use to stop terrorism and maintain their freedom.

Please name a few of these terrorists who have been stopped, please show us the plans where they where going to attack western cities. You do realise that drone operators cannot tell if its a man with a rifle (which everyone owns in these countries) or a woman with a rake working the field, not sure? Murder them....better safe than sorry right?

I think you are utterly naive and childish.

This from the guy who believes the propaganda spouted that ZOMG the terrorists are always planning to get him. I posted a list of dead children a short while ago, all killed by drone strikes. Maybe you should read that and then read the accounts of how they died and then tell me how they were terrorists.

You call me naive but here's the thing, America is not killing insurgents with these drone strikes they are CREATING them! Every time an innocent person is blown to bits this will create more people wanting to kill the scum who did it and tbh I cant say I blame them.

Balaclava1991

bumper234 wrote: »

Really? Who are America at "war" with? The Afghan people? The Pakistani people? The Yemeni people? If these insurgents cannot be killed WITHOUT blowing Innocent children to bits then maybe boots on the ground should be implemented. Or is one dead American soldier worth more than some poor brown children?

Al-Qaeda are operating in Afghanistan, Pakistani, Yemen and several other Muslim countries with the assistance of local Islamic forces and local people. They hide among the civilians. The only alternative to drones is to send in troops with the support of tanks and armored vehicles, artillery, helicopter gunships and fighter planes to physically go into these remote areas and the kill them. That would cost billions of dollars, hundreds of lives of soldiers and thousands of lives in pitched battles.

What is your alternative to full scale invasion or drone attacks?

Do nothing and the Islamic nutjobs will stop plotting attacks against the West?

Really? Because I would love to see your source on this, please show me how many terrorist attacks have taken place in the west by poor farmers from the above named countries.

Afghanistan fell into the hands of Islamists and became a base for jihadists from around the world who traveled there to train for terrorist attacks in the West. The same is now happening in the Horn of Africa and other places where foreign jihadists have got together and are plotting to return to the West to launch insurgencies in European cities.

You mean the people you call insurgents but are really people who are trying to remove an invading army?

The Islamists aims are to create Islamic states across the entire Muslim world run according to Sharia Law, consolidate their rule and spread their poison to the West.

Again you call them terrorists, the go to word for American politicians to explain EVERYTHING.

You can't tell the difference between western democratic liberal society and scum who want to create theocratic hellholes?

Looking at photographs and video clips is not knowing all about the human cost of drone strikes, when your 5 year old daughter, sister, niece is blown to bits In front of you, THAT'S knowing the the human cost of drone strikes!

Facepalm! Civilians die in all wars. When two opposing forces are fighting it out civilians are going to killed indirectly.

Please name a few of these terrorists who have been stopped, please show us the plans where they where going to attack western cities.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_unsuccessful_terrorist_plots_in_the_United_States_post-9/11

You do realise that drone operators cannot tell if its a man with a rifle (which everyone owns in these countries) or a woman with a rake working the field, not sure? Murder them....better safe than sorry right?

Facepalm!
It's not murder to kill someone who you have reason to believe is an armed terrorist or insurgent.

This from the guy who believes the propaganda spouted that ZOMG the terrorists are always planning to get him. I posted a list of dead children a short while ago, all killed by drone strikes. Maybe you should read that and then read the accounts of how they died and then tell me how they were terrorists.

Civilians were killed in World War 2 when Allied fighters and bombs strafed retreating German forces. When German troop ships were sunk they were often also crowded with civilian refugees. Are you going to tell me World War 2 should not have been fought? This is war and civilian death are often unavoidable.

You call me naive but here's the thing, America is not killing insurgents with these drone strikes they are CREATING them! Every time an innocent person is blown to bits this will create more people wanting to kill the scum who did it and tbh I cant say I blame them.

Right then. Grow a beard and grab a prayer mat and a rifle and go over there and join the enemy?.

You are standing up for religious nut jobs who want to bring civilization to a crashing halt and turn us back to medieval savagery.

This is a war to the death.

Squeamishness is not going to win it.

bumper234

Balaclava1991 wrote: »

Al-Qaeda are operating in Afghanistan, Pakistani, Yemen and several other Muslim countries with the assistance of local Islamic forces and local people. They hide among the civilians. The only alternative to drones is to send in troops with the support of tanks and armored vehicles, artillery, helicopter gunships and fighter planes to physically go into these remote areas and the kill them. That would cost billions of dollars, hundreds of lives of soldiers and thousands of lives in pitched battles.

What is your alternative to full scale invasion or drone attacks?

Again you are listening to propaganda about how this massive army is poised to strike western cities when the truth is AQ are nothing. America illegally started two wars and invaded countries and when they killed innocent men, women and children they have given AQ all of the insurgents they need. You say it would cost billions to get boots on the ground and take out these insurgents yet so far it has cost THREE TRILLION!

Do nothing and the Islamic nutjobs will stop plotting attacks against the West?

Again you are seeing terrorists behind every tree because you have been brainwashed with propaganda when in reality there are no massive armed hordes ready to attack the west.

Afghanistan fell into the hands of Islamists and became a base for jihadists from around the world who traveled there to train for terrorist attacks in the West. The same is now happening in the Horn of Africa and other places where foreign jihadists have got together and are plotting to return to the West to launch insurgencies in European cities.

Again you are literally quoting the propaganda machine about the big bad terrorists about to launch wave after wave of attacks on western cities when the truth is there are no such attacks happening. You are akin to the J Edgar Hoover reds under the beds school of thought.

The Islamists aims are to create Islamic states across the entire Muslim world run according to Sharia Law, consolidate their rule and spread their poison to the West.

You have a credible source for this claim of course? Because any Muslim I have ever spoken to has no plans for taking over the world or living their lives under Sharia Law.

You can't tell the difference between western democratic liberal society and scum who want to create theocratic hellholes?

You mean those glorious western countries who spy on their citizens and allies and murder with impunity?

Facepalm! Civilians die in all wars. When two opposing forces are fighting it out civilians are going to killed indirectly.

When civilians are being MURDERED for just being SUSPECTED of being insurgents then that is not a war.




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_unsuccessful_terrorist_plots_in_the_United_States_post-9/11

Facepalm!
It's not murder to kill someone who you have reason to believe is an armed terrorist or insurgent.

If North Korea killed 3 American citizens tomorrow because they felt the Americans may be plotting to set off a bomb would that be ok with you?

Civilians were killed in World War 2 when Allied fighters and bombs strafed retreating German forces. When German troop ships were sunk they were often also crowded with civilian refugees. Are you going to tell me World War 2 should not have been fought? This is war and civilian death are often unavoidable.

Comparing blowing up innocent children with WW2, classy argument :rolleyes:

Right then. Grow a beard and grab a prayer mat and a rifle and go over there and join the enemy?.

You are standing up for religious nut jobs who want to bring civilization to a crashing halt and turn us back to medieval savagery.

This is a war to the death.

Squeamishness is not going to win it.

I have no enemy, I don't see terrorists everywhere and I certainly don't want children murdered in my name by the American military machine. Maybe you should talk to a Muslim, visit a mosque and see that they are just people.