Drone Strikes

bumper234

Maybe this will put things Into perspective for you a bit?


http://www.veteranstoday.com/2011/08/06/exactly-how-big-is-this-so-called-al-qaeda/


Currently we have less than 200 detainees at Guantanamo most of whom have not been provenguilty of being ‘Al Qaeda terrorists.’ Let’s be even more generous and count in those detained in other US military prisons like Bagram. Again, we are looking at 500 or so prisoners none of whom having ever been charged; none of whom legally found to be an Al Qaeda terrorist.Now please put all these facts in perspective: Ten long years of continuous wars, trillions of dollars, 250,000 military personnel, trillions of dollars worth of intelligence gathering institutions and capabilities, millions of dollars set in rewards for Al Qaeda terrorists, and a supposed network with supposed Al Qaeda active terrorist members in very large numbers. Yet we haveless than 1000 detained who have been accused of being Al Qaeda terrorists, and none ever proven to be an active Al Qaeda terrorist member.

Balaclava1991

bumper234 wrote: »

Again you are listening to propaganda about how this massive army is poised to strike western cities when the truth is AQ are nothing. America illegally started two wars and invaded countries and when they killed innocent men, women and children they have given AQ all of the insurgents they need. You say it would cost billions to get boots on the ground and take out these insurgents yet so far it has cost THREE TRILLION!

The Islamists themselves pour out their own propaganda. They want America to fall to Islam, they want Israel destroyed and all Jews killed, they want to force the entire world to become Muslim and they are prepared to get their hands of weapon of mass destruction in order to do it.

Illegally overthrew the Taliban? Illegally overthrow the psychopathic fascist genocidal dictator Saddam Hussein?
If those two wars were illegal then screw legality.

Al-Qaeda and other Islamists started the War on Terror. Not the U.S. and its allies.
The strategy in Iraq worked. The dictator was overthrown and a democratic regime was established and the Islamists were prevented from establishing their own state.
The drone program is far cheaper than sending in convention forces.

Again you are seeing terrorists behind every tree because you have been brainwashed with propaganda when in reality there are no massive armed hordes ready to attack the west.

There have been thousands and thousands of terrorist attacks and attacks on Western military forces since 9/11. Thousands of insurgents and terrorists have been killed in pitched battles with NATO forces and in drone attacks.

Again you are literally quoting the propaganda machine about the big bad terrorists about to launch wave after wave of attacks on western cities when the truth is there are no such attacks happening. You are akin to the J Edgar Hoover reds under the beds school of thought.

Thousands of Western Muslims have joined terrorist groups and have fought in the Afghanistan and the Middle East and they are actively plotting terrorist attacks on the streets of Western cities where there already have been a wave of terrorist bombings and murders.

You have a credible source for this claim of course? Because any Muslim I have ever spoken to has no plans for taking over the world or living their lives under Sharia Law.

Do you think a terrorist is going to actually tell you what they are planning in secret?

You mean those glorious western countries who spy on their citizens and allies and murder with impunity?

Western countries have always spied on their citizens and their allies.

It's not murder to knock off terrorists who are plotting to kill thousands.

When civilians are being MURDERED for just being SUSPECTED of being insurgents then that is not a war.

This is a secret war and it is not always possible to 100% sure. The risk of not acting on suspicions could end in another 9/11 or worse a nuclear mushroom over a Western city.

If North Korea killed 3 American citizens tomorrow because they felt the Americans may be plotting to set off a bomb would that be ok with you?

North Korea is a communist hellhole dictatorship. I would support any armed action to overthrow that odious regime.

Comparing blowing up innocent children with WW2, classy argument :rolleyes:

Thousands and thousands of civilians were killed in the fighting in WW2.

I have no enemy, I don't see terrorists everywhere and I certainly don't want children murdered in my name by the American military machine.

Fine. Pretend there is no Islamist threat against the West. The American military machine will continue to defend you whether you want to be defend or not. Innocent civilians live in conflict zones and where there is heavy fighting they will inevitable caught in the crossfire.

Maybe you should talk to a Muslim, visit a mosque and see that they are just people.

The majority of the deaths in conflicts around the world are by Muslims killing Muslims.
If you actually spoke to Muslims they would tell you they want democracy and freedom and opportunity just like Westerners.
A minority are hostile to progress, freedom, democracy and the modern world and want to plunge the world into barbarism. This Muslim minority have to go.

Gringo180

Balaclava1991 wrote: »

The Islamists themselves pour out their own propaganda. They want America to fall to Islam, they want Israel destroyed and all Jews killed, they want to force the entire world to become Muslim and they are prepared to get their hands of weapon of mass destruction in order to do it.

Illegally overthrew the Taliban? Illegally overthrow the psychopathic fascist genocidal dictator Saddam Hussein?
If those two wars were illegal then screw legality.

Al-Qaeda and other Islamists started the War on Terror. Not the U.S. and its allies.
The strategy in Iraq worked. The dictator was overthrown and a democratic regime was established and the Islamists were prevented from establishing their own state.
The drone program is far cheaper than sending in convention forces.




There have been thousands and thousands of terrorist attacks and attacks on Western military forces since 9/11. Thousands of insurgents and terrorists have been killed in pitched battles with NATO forces and in drone attacks.



Thousands of Western Muslims have joined terrorist groups and have fought in the Afghanistan and the Middle East and they are actively plotting terrorist attacks on the streets of Western cities where there already have been a wave of terrorist bombings and murders.



Do you think a terrorist is going to actually tell you what they are planning in secret?



Western countries have always spied on their citizens and their allies.

It's not murder to knock off terrorists who are plotting to kill thousands.



This is a secret war and it is not always possible to 100% sure. The risk of not acting on suspicions could end in another 9/11 or worse a nuclear mushroom over a Western city.



North Korea is a communist hellhole dictatorship. I would support any armed action to overthrow that odious regime.



Thousands and thousands of civilians were killed in the fighting in WW2.



Fine. Pretend there is no Islamist threat against the West. The American military machine will continue to defend you whether you want to be defend or not. Innocent civilians live in conflict zones and where there is heavy fighting they will inevitable caught in the crossfire.



The majority of the deaths in conflicts around the world are by Muslims killing Muslims.
If you actually spoke to Muslims they would tell you they want democracy and freedom and opportunity just like Westerners.
A minority are hostile to progress, freedom, democracy and the modern world and want to plunge the world into barbarism. This Muslim minority have to go.

The world is the dangerous place it is today because of American foreign policy plain and simple. People don't just one day wake up and think " I might blow myself up today down at the local shopping centre". For every action there is a reaction, and they are reacting to the illegal wars been waged throughout the muslim world and the hypocritical foreign policy of the U.S.

Balaclava1991

Gringo180 wrote: »

The world is the dangerous place it is today because of American foreign policy plain and simple.

The world is a dangerous place because of Islamic extremism.

People don't just one day wake up and think " I might blow myself up today down at the local shopping centre".

They do if they are Islamic fundamentalist nutjobs.

For every action there is a reaction, and they are reacting to the illegal wars been waged throughout the muslim world and the hypocritical foreign policy of the U.S.

The Muslim world is a politically, culturally, technological, industrially and economically backward cesspool of ignorance and barbarity.

Gringo180

Balaclava1991 wrote: »

The world is a dangerous place because of Islamic extremism.



They do if they are Islamic fundamentalist nutjobs.



The Muslim world is a politically, culturally, technological, industrially and economically backward cesspool of ignorance and barbarity.

Who started Islamic extremism? Its only come about the last 50 odd years because of the U.S's foreign policy, there support of the apartheid state that is Israel and there propping up of ruthless dictators. So what if the Muslim world is backwards leave them too it , what business is it to the Americans?

Balaclava1991

Gringo180 wrote: »

Who started Islamic extremism?

Muhammad.

Its only come about the last 50 odd years because of the U.S's foreign policy

Islamic extremism has existed since the first conquests of Muhammad and his successors.

there support of the apartheid state that is Israel and there propping up of ruthless dictators.

Since the very beginning of the state of Israel in 1948 the Muslims have sought to destroy it and murder all the Jews. I presume you don't agree with a second holocaust? Israel was created as homeland for the Jews after World War 2 so that never again would there be another genocide of their people.

The Islamists want to replace dictators with Sharia Law. This is why the Egyptian people rose up against the Muslim Brotherhood.

So what if the Muslim world is backwards leave them too it , what business is it to the Americans?

American do not want their cities flattened by religious fanatics in hijacked planes that's why.

The Muslims want to export their backwards religion to the rest of the world and they sit on much of the world's fuel supply.

Without Western economic demand for oil, without Westerners providing the science of oil exploration and the expertise in oil drilling and the money to pay for the oil, the Arab rulers would still be impoverished goat herding simpletons.

The sooner we find an alternative fuel source the better and the sooner the Arabs can return to the Stone Age.

bumper234

Balaclava1991 wrote: »

Muhammad.



Islamic extremism has existed since the first conquests of Muhammad and his successors.



Since the very beginning of the state of Israel in 1948 the Muslims have sought to destroy it and murder all the Jews. I presume you don't agree with a second holocaust? Israel was created as homeland for the Jews after World War 2 so that never again would there be another genocide of their people.

The Islamists want to replace dictators with Sharia Law. This is why the Egyptian people rose up against the Muslim Brotherhood.



American do not want their cities flattened by religious fanatics in hijacked planes that's why.

The Muslims want to export their backwards religion to the rest of the world and they sit on much of the world's fuel supply.

Without Western economic demand for oil, without Westerners providing the science of oil exploration and the expertise in oil drilling and the money to pay for the oil, the Arab rulers would still be impoverished goat herding simpletons.

The sooner we find an alternative fuel source the better and the sooner the Arabs can return to the Stone Age.

Your posts have an awful stench of racism and hatred off them and therefore I don't think you deserve any more interaction from myself. If you wish to debate the drone strike programme in a rational way then that's fine but if you insist on making racist remarks like the bolded above then you will be ignored.

Gringo180

Balaclava1991 wrote: »

Muhammad.



Islamic extremism has existed since the first conquests of Muhammad and his successors.



Since the very beginning of the state of Israel in 1948 the Muslims have sought to destroy it and murder all the Jews. I presume you don't agree with a second holocaust? Israel was created as homeland for the Jews after World War 2 so that never again would there be another genocide of their people.

The Islamists want to replace dictators with Sharia Law. This is why the Egyptian people rose up against the Muslim Brotherhood.



American do not want their cities flattened by religious fanatics in hijacked planes that's why.

The Muslims want to export their backwards religion to the rest of the world and they sit on much of the world's fuel supply.

Without Western economic demand for oil, without Westerners providing the science of oil exploration and the expertise in oil drilling and the money to pay for the oil, the Arab rulers would still be impoverished goat herding simpletons.

The sooner we find an alternative fuel source the better and the sooner the Arabs can return to the Stone Age.

Is that you Bill O Reilly?

Manach

Personally I'd regard myself as Pro-American (and admire Bill O'Reilly).
But drone strikes are wrong, as these are a breach of international law norms when these occur outside the warzones. The US is a signatory and in most cases a valued partner in supporting Human rights worldwide (as per the work of say Hiliary Clinton) - but these strikes are anolomous behaviour which reflect poorly on the stature of the US and the core concept of civilian rights during a time of conflict.

Balaclava1991

bumper234 wrote: »

Your posts have an awful stench of racism and hatred off them and therefore I don't think you deserve any more interaction from myself. If you wish to debate the drone strike programme in a rational way then that's fine but if you insist on making racist remarks like the bolded above then you will be ignored.

I don't have a racist bone in my body.

The Arabs unfortunately are full of blind hate and resentment and ignorance.

The only industry worth mentioning in the Arab world is the oil industry. Without it the Arabs would be reduced to subsistence agriculture or fighting and raiding as they did before enlightened Westerners came in contact with their tribal societies.
The vast majority are uneducated, have no technical ability whatsoever, no knowledge of technology or manufacturing and have to buy know how and technology and labor from abroad to get anything done. Without their oil the Arab nations would return to the desert and most of them would die of starvation and thirst.
They export no literature except the ramblings of religious lunatics, no music, few if any Arabs have research published in scientific journals, there is no invention, no freedom of thought and no originality.
Any educated person among them never wants to go back once they experience life in the West.

The only cards the Arabs have to play are hate, violence, terror and their demented mind numbing Islamic religion.

Scofflaw

Balaclava1991 wrote: »

I don't have a racist bone in my body.

The Arabs unfortunately are full of blind hate and resentment and ignorance.

The only industry worth mentioning in the Arab world is the oil industry. Without it the Arabs would be reduced to subsistence agriculture or fighting and raiding as they did before enlightened Westerners came in contact with their tribal societies.
The vast majority are uneducated, have no technical ability whatsoever, no knowledge of technology or manufacturing and have to buy know how and technology and labor from abroad to get anything done. Without their oil the Arab nations would return to the desert and most of them would die of starvation and thirst.
They export no literature except the ramblings of religious lunatics, no music, few if any Arabs have research published in scientific journals, there is no invention, no freedom of thought and no originality.
Any educated person among them never wants to go back once they experience life in the West.

The only cards the Arabs have to play are hate, violence, terror and their demented mind numbing Islamic religion.

Since it's the holiday season, we'll make it a permaban. Would make a lovely couple with hotbabe1992, if not already the same poster.

moderately,
Scofflaw

InTheTrees

Gringo180 wrote: »

So what if the Muslim world is backwards leave them too it , what business is it to the Americans?

If it were possible to "leave them to it" we probably would, its just that when the whole mess escalates into bombs going off in western capitals then people start grumbling about responses needing to be sent and the whole elaborate dance continues. Basically your average western voter doesnt care much about the origins of the dispute, or how Standard Oil propped up the Shah or whatever.

Its a bit like those guys hacking off the brit soldiers head in south London. I bet the day after that public opinion would have been solidly in favour of drone strikes.

InTheTrees

It was announced yesterday that the US was setting up five or six areas within the USA where companies could start testing drones for future domestic uses.

I'm afraid to say "drones" are here to stay.

tdv123

Balaclava1991 wrote: »

The Islamists themselves pour out their own propaganda. They want America to fall to Islam, they want Israel destroyed and all Jews killed, they want to force the entire world to become Muslim and they are prepared to get their hands of weapon of mass destruction in order to do it.

.

A lot of people Muslim & non-Muslim (including a lot Jewish people) want the destruction of the state of Israel.

But there's a big difference between wishing for the destruction of a political entity & wishing to "kill all the people living in the state".

The western world wanted to see the complete destruction of the Soviet Union but they didn't wish to kill all Russian people.

A lot of Irish people wanted & still do want to see the end of the State of Northern Ireland they don't want to kill everybody living in those 6 counties.

A lot of people wanted to see the end of apartheid South Africa they didn't want to kill every South African. And so on.

tdv123

Balaclava1991 wrote: »

The world is a dangerous place because of Islamic extremism.

Another false dichotomy you've made is that so called "Islamic extremists" are a the biggest threat we've ever faced. Loyalists paramilitaries were a much bigger threat to the State of Ireland. Likewise the Provisional IRA was much, much bigger threat to the State of GB & NI than any so called Islamic extremists.

And maybe you were on the dark side of the when European fascist virtually controlled most Europe countries against their wiil

But yeah so called "Islamic extremists" are our biggest threat.

I think you just love to scaremonger.

two wheels good

InTheTrees wrote: »

.....

Its a bit like those guys hacking off the brit soldiers head in south London. I bet the day after that public opinion would have been solidly in favour of drone strikes.

I didn't see or read any reports of calls for drone attacks by the UK in response to this brutal attack - even by the Islamophobic minority. So, this is a baseless generalisation, I'd say.
Anyway, where exactly would the strike be targeted - the murderers' family home in London, or maybe his local mosque?

two wheels good

Found it! An old report about "double-tap" drone strikes deliberately targeting rescuers attending the injured from a first strike. This has the added benefit of keeping journalists away the site.
When car-bombers or suicide-bombers adopt this tactic it is condemned as cowardly\barbaric\terror.

Also:
US reporting injured children as "militants"
Revelations that the Obama administration has redefined "militants" to mean "all military-age males in a strike zone". How convenient.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/aug/20/us-drones-strikes-target-rescuers-pakistan

bumper234

two wheels good wrote: »

Found it! An old report about "double-tap" drone strikes deliberately targeting rescuers attending the injured from a first strike. This has the added benefit of keeping journalists away the site.
When car-bombers or suicide-bombers adopt this tactic it is condemned as cowardly\barbaric\terror.

Also:
US reporting injured children as "militants"
Revelations that the Obama administration has redefined "militants" to mean "all military-age males in a strike zone". How convenient.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/aug/20/us-drones-strikes-target-rescuers-pakistan

Ah yes but the apologists will be in soon to tell you that the American military don't do that anymore and anyway its not terrorism when they do it it's a legitimate tactic and hey those 12 year old kids had guns! Or sticks....they could have been sticks but hey they could really hurt an American citizen if they walked the 10,000 miles there and swung it really hard!

Eggy Baby!

Again you are seeing terrorists behind every tree because you have been brainwashed with propaganda when in reality there are no massive armed hordes ready to attack the west.

The only "armed hordes" are those of the US et al

bumper234

The NSA’s Secret Role in the U.S. Assassination Program

https://firstlook.org/theintercept/article/2014/02/10/the-nsas-secret-role/



The former JSOC drone operator is adamant that the technology has been responsible for taking out terrorists and networks of people facilitating improvised explosive device attacks against U.S. forces in Afghanistan. But he also states that innocent people have “absolutely” been killed as a result of the NSA’s increasing reliance on the surveillance tactic.


The former drone operator also says that he personally participated in drone strikes where the identity of the target was known, but other unknown people nearby were also killed.

Manic Moran

bumper234 wrote: »

The NSA’s Secret Role in the U.S. Assassination Program

https://firstlook.org/theintercept/article/2014/02/10/the-nsas-secret-role/



The former JSOC drone operator is adamant that the technology has been responsible for taking out terrorists and networks of people facilitating improvised explosive device attacks against U.S. forces in Afghanistan. But he also states that innocent people have “absolutely” been killed as a result of the NSA’s increasing reliance on the surveillance tactic.


The former drone operator also says that he personally participated in drone strikes where the identity of the target was known, but other unknown people nearby were also killed.

So what's the new news here?

bumper234

Manic Moran wrote: »

So what's the new news here?

Had you read that report before?

Manic Moran

No, but it doesn't tell me anything I didn't already know.

What's the news? That users of cellphones have been targeted? Old news. That innocents get killed along with the targets? Old news. That sometimes the strike is a balls-up and the supposed target isn't there to begin with? Also old news.

It's interesting that the habit of giving the 'phones to third parties is brought up, though. In a conventional war, that's called 'putting protected persons in danger' and is a war crime if done without the permission or knowledge of the third party. I doubt too many people care about that sort of technicality today, though. Except perhaps the people actually tasked with exercising the conflict.

bumper234

Manic Moran wrote: »

No, but it doesn't tell me anything I didn't already know.

What's the news? That users of cellphones have been targeted? Old news. That innocents get killed along with the targets? Old news. That sometimes the strike is a balls-up and the supposed target isn't there to begin with? Also old news.

It's interesting that the habit of giving the 'phones to third parties is brought up, though. In a conventional war, that's called 'putting protected persons in danger' and is a war crime if done without the permission or knowledge of the third party. I doubt too many people care about that sort of technicality today, though. Except perhaps the people actually tasked with exercising the conflict.

Well maybe the other people who read this thread have not read that report before :rolleyes:

bumper234

Nothing shocking here i suppose

US Media Ignores 7 US Drone Strikes On Yemen In First 12 Days Of March

http://raniakhalek.com/2014/03/17/us-media-ignores-7-us-drone-strikes-on-yemen-in-first-12-days-of-march/

On March 7, a suspected US drone strike killed 15 people…15!! That’s not to say that drone strikes are excusable as long as only a handful of people are killed, just that 15 people is a really high number that at the very least warrants further investigation by news outlets that possess the resources to do so. But to date, as far as I can tell, not a single US or Western media outlet has bothered to report on this strike.

According to The Yemen Times, the target of the drone strike that incinerated a vehicle on March 10 was a 16-year-old boy whose loved ones have also been targeted by drones

If this is true, the US murdered a child for suspected links to Al Qaeda based on evidence no one, except for President Obama and his inner circle, is allowed to see. Meanwhile, the local community is living in a constant state of terror as they struggle to cope with possible death from the sky and the presence of Al Qaeda on the ground, who I imagine have an easier time recruiting new fighters in the aftermath of US bombings that kill children.

Ironically i have been watching Rambo 3 on telly while ironing my shirts and the good colonel Trautman gives this lovely speech to the big bad Russian in charge.......gotta love American 80's propaganda

Share this quote

Colonel Trautman: You expect sympathy? You started this damn war, now you'll have to deal with it.

Zaysen: And we will. It is just a matter of time before we achieve a complete victory.

Colonel Trautman: Yeah, well, there won't be a victory. Every day, your war machines lose ground to a bunch of poorly-armed, poorly-equipped freedom fighters. The fact is that you underestimated your competition. If you'd studied your history, you'd know that these people have never given up to anyone. They'd rather die than be slaves to an invading army. You can't defeat a people like that. We tried; we already had our Vietnam! Now you're gonna have yours.