100V sockets in an Irish home. Possible? Legal?

hibby

When we were living in Ireland, we used some Japanese (100 V) appliances with appropriately-sized transformers. For some kitchen appliances, the required transformer was big, heavy, clunky, expensive and a little bit noisy.

Later this year we will go back to Ireland and we are planning to buy a house in Ireland next year. My wife wants to buy and bring home more electrical items, including power-hungry items such as an electric carpet.

Is there any possibility of having "dual-wiring" in the house, with some Japanese-standard sockets on a 100V radial, alongside the standard 230V wiring and 3-pin sockets.

I guess there are two issues - is it possible to "split" a 230 V supply into 2 115 V supplies? And would any electrician be willing to do it?

Lingua Franca

What in the name of all that is cute and fluffy is an electric carpet?

No wait, don't tell me. I prefer where my imagination is going with this one.

Bruthal

hibby wrote: »

When we were living in Ireland, we used some Japanese (100 V) appliances with appropriately-sized transformers. For some kitchen appliances, the required transformer was big, heavy, clunky, expensive and a little bit noisy.

Later this year we will go back to Ireland and we are planning to buy a house in Ireland next year. My wife wants to buy and bring home more electrical items, including power-hungry items such as an electric carpet.

Is there any possibility of having "dual-wiring" in the house, with some Japanese-standard sockets on a 100V radial, alongside the standard 230V wiring and 3-pin sockets.

I guess there are two issues - is it possible to "split" a 230 V supply into 2 115 V supplies? And would any electrician be willing to do it?

The only real way of splitting 230v into 115v is by using 2 identical items in series. Completely impractical.

You will need a transformer or transformers rated for the likely max load to do this, probably installed somewhere with sound proofing around it to eliminate the noise. Some push buttons could also be added, to disconnect the supply to the transformer when not in use maybe.

It would be a lot easier to get 230v versions of the items here probably, although I doubt des kelly has any magic carpets.

Them carpets are probably just a couple of hundred watts anyway, if they are heated mats.

Edit: In answer to the other question, it is both possible as outlined there, and legal.

Cerco

Lingua Franca wrote: »

What in the name of all that is cute and fluffy is an electric carpet?

No wait, don't tell me. I prefer where my imagination is going with this one.

I think you use them with an electric chair.

hibby

Bruthal wrote: »

You will need a transformer or transformers rated for the likely max load to do this, probably installed somewhere with sound proofing around it to eliminate the noise. Some push buttons could also be added, to disconnect the supply to the transformer when not in use maybe.

I like this suggestion. Thanks!

P_1

Lingua Franca wrote: »

What in the name of all that is cute and fluffy is an electric carpet?

No wait, don't tell me. I prefer where my imagination is going with this one.

From Wikipedia

The electric carpet is the archetypical example of device used in hazing, and has been, at least popularly, associated with American Freemasonry. It is a mat through which electric current can be run and people are forced to stand or walk on it. The torture could last hours and the volts could range from 500 to 500,000.

It can also be a warming rug.

Loving the understatement at the end

Yawlboy

My Mother in Laws house here has 110V (US) and 240V sockets throughout the Garage/workshop/office as the people who lived there before her had brought a load of stuff in from the USA. So I'd say it is possible but do you really want to rewire your house????

Mind you the electric heated self cleaning toilets I saw in Japan would be class.

Andy454

Along with the current matching of your device, you also need to be mindful of the operating frequency of your device.

Japan uses 100V at 50Hz and 60Hz depending on where you live.

I think its 110v 50Hz in Tokyo and 110V 60Hz in the west.

You need to make sure that your device will operate safely and efficiently at 50Hz if taking it to Ireland along with selecting an appropriate transformer.

I would doubt any electrician would be authorised to make such alterations to a domestic system, it may invalidate their public liability insurance and your own homeowners insurance to install a system that would be contrary to ECI rules.

The electrical safety rules require sockets to have terminal covers operated by an earthing pin.

M cebee

Andy454 wrote: »

Along with the current matching of your device, you also need to be mindful of the operating frequency of your device.

Japan uses 100V at 50Hz and 60Hz depending on where you live.

I think its 110v 50Hz in Tokyo and 110V 60Hz in the west.

You need to make sure that your device will operate safely and efficiently at 50Hz if taking it to Ireland along with selecting an appropriate transformer.

I would doubt any electrician would be authorised to make such alterations to a domestic system, it may invalidate their public liability insurance and your own homeowners insurance to install a system that would be contrary to ECI rules.

The electrical safety rules require sockets to have terminal covers operated by an earthing pin.

haven't checked- but i would assume it's allowed to fit additional sockets at a different voltage if it's done properly

cant' see why not

Andy454

Without checking, I can't see it being a runner.

Reputable electricians would be subject to public liability insurance, which probably requires them to install to IEC standards, I doubt it would cover them to install / commision ANSI fittings in an Irish domestic envoirnment.

Even so, you would have a duty of disclosure to your insurance company to disclose anything different from the ordinary 240V system and they may choose not to insure it.

If, god forbid, there was a fire, you may be also be partly / personally liable as you would be the person who ordered the installation of a 110V system which would be different to the normal standards.

You would have to source a specific distribution board, specific breakers, specific wiring (higher amperage now that your using lower voltage) a seperate earthing system etc.

You would have to implement specific spacing, ensure your earths are good, across the site as you don't want to be making up the difference if you say touch a 220V appliance and a 110V appliance at the same time. Isolation of systems can be difficult to maintain.

You would also have a duty to de-commision such a system if you were to sell or move on somewhere else...

I have been down this road myself before, before I found it simply unworkable.

I think the BS system is more developed to be honest, modern plugs prongs are insulated to prevent finger contact on insertion removal.

I got an awful shock in the states recently when I put my hand around the back of a tv to pull out the plug which was sitting half-in half-out and I touched the terminals...

You also need to consider that every BS plug has a fuse in it specific for each device to prevent electrical fire, this is not in ANSI / Japanese plugs.

It's not the same as using a specific pre-made adapter with a specific fitting than to hardwire a source to a permanently fitted installation.

You also need to consider that if someone gets a shock from an appliance in the manner above, you would be personally liable, as you choose not to implement fittings to the required safety standards, which could attract the attention of the HSA

M cebee

Andy454 wrote: »

Without checking, I can't see it being a runner.

Reputable electricians would be subject to public liability insurance, which probably requires them to install to IEC standards, I doubt it would cover them to install / commision ANSI fittings in an Irish domestic envoirnment.

Even so, you would have a duty of disclosure to your insurance company to disclose anything different from the ordinary 240V system and they may choose not to insure it.

If, god forbid, there was a fire, you may be also be partly / personally liable as you would be the person who ordered the installation of a 110V system which would be different to the normal standards.

You would have to source a specific distribution board, specific breakers, specific wiring (higher amperage now that your using lower voltage) a seperate earthing system etc.

You would have to implement specific spacing, ensure your earths are good, across the site as you don't want to be making up the difference if you say touch a 220V appliance and a 110V appliance at the same time. Isolation of systems can be difficult to maintain.

You would also have a duty to de-commision such a system if you were to sell or move on somewhere else...

I have been down this road myself before, before I found it simply unworkable.

I think the BS system is more developed to be honest, modern plugs prongs are insulated to prevent finger contact on insertion removal.

I got an awful shock in the states recently when I put my hand around the back of a tv to pull out the plug which was sitting half-in half-out and I touched the terminals...

You also need to consider that every BS plug has a fuse in it specific for each device to prevent electrical fire, this is not in ANSI / Japanese plugs.

It's not the same as using a specific pre-made adapter with a specific fitting than to hardwire a source to a permanently fitted installation.

You also need to consider that if someone gets a shock from an appliance in the manner above, you would be personally liable, as you choose not to implement fittings to the required safety standards.

dunno about all that

must take a look at et101 -see what it says

Bruthal

Andy454 wrote: »

I got an awful shock in the states recently when I put my hand around the back of a tv to pull out the plug which was sitting half-in half-out and I touched the terminals...

That`s quite an achievement, if it was 110v from pin to pin. At 110v, it would hardly be noticed unless the fingers were soaked.

Bruthal

M cebee wrote: »

dunno about all that

must take a look at et101 -see what it says

Cant see the problem myself. Supply from DB to transformer. Transformer through DP breakers for each circuit.

If thats against rules then it doesnt leave much hope for having 3 phase in a house workshop.

M cebee

Bruthal wrote: »

Cant see the problem myself. Supply from DB to transformer. Transformer through DP breakers for each circuit.

If thats against rules then it doesnt leave much hope for having 3 phase in a house workshop.

dunno if it's allowed or not-should be no problem except for frequency mismatch

-it's 100v and there's 50/60hz in japan
-there'd be proprietary sockets of some type needed

Bruthal

M cebee wrote: »

dunno if it's allowed or not-should be no problem except for frequency mismatch

-it's 100v and there's 50/60hz in japan
-there'd be proprietary sockets of some type needed

What voltage and frequency Japanese Items are would seem irrelevant really. Its more about whether a 110v transformer can be installed. It would seem strange if not, and in my opinion, silly.

cgh

you could get a 110v transformer get a circuit wired specifically of the transfomer, but to do it throughout the house would be a job in itself. then as which has been mentioned before getting it signed off is going to be hard.
you could look at getting say yellow sockets and plug tops specifically for your 110 volt equipment. thus giving them the required insulation, but best of luck getting your insurance and required paperwork to do it all.

M cebee

cgh wrote: »

you could get a 110v transformer get a circuit wired specifically of the transfomer, but to do it throughout the house would be a job in itself. then as which has been mentioned before getting it signed off is going to be hard.
you could look at getting say yellow sockets and plug tops specifically for your 110 volt equipment. thus giving them the required insulation, but best of luck getting your insurance and required paperwork to do it all.

-it's 100v, you won't be using yellow sockets or 110v trafo anyhow
-you would be buying a 100v trafo from blakely or whoever imo

M cebee

554.5.2 says sockets complying with national standards of other countries (eg:europe,usa)may be installed in commercial and residential premises

doesn't say domestic

cast_iron

What's the difference between residential and domestic?
Either way, this case is surely classed as residential.

M cebee

cast_iron wrote: »

What's the difference between residential and domestic?
Either way, this case is surely classed as residential.

it mentions nursing home as being residential ,and hotel as commercial

cast_iron

I see. I would have thought the nursing home would be in some way commercial, being accessible to certain members of the public, but that's neither here nor there.
Is there anything that states a house is not residential? Seems a strange question

M cebee

cast_iron wrote: »

I see. I would have thought the nursing home would be in some way commercial, being accessible to certain members of the public, but that's neither here nor there.
Is there anything that states a house is not residential? Seems a strange question

dunno

M cebee

Bruthal wrote: »

Cant see the problem myself. Supply from DB to transformer. Transformer through DP breakers for each circuit.

If thats against rules then it doesnt leave much hope for having 3 phase in a house workshop.

don't think you'd be using cte/dp mcbs
i'd say sp mcbs and 30ma protection
-not sure on rcd trip test and disconnection time.the regular meters wouldn't work on 100v

cast_iron

M cebee wrote: »

dunno

I thought you read it?

Bruthal

M cebee wrote: »

don't think you'd be using cte/dp mcbs

Why not?

I suppose it depends on the 100v transformers that can be got.

M cebee

cast_iron wrote: »

I thought you read it?

don't think it rules out domestic-just doesn't mention it

Cedrus

I'm don't know the regs and whether it would be ok in a domestic situation so I cannot comment on the legality in the OPs case, but I have seen lots of 110V installations in labs, factories and offices here and in the UK. I've seen a few domestic 1-2 socket installs but they were always retrofits after the electrician had finished. It has to be designed so it's impossible to mix up the sockets, but that's easy to do.

I'd say the biggest issues are practical ones, like convincing the ESB to connect, getting house insurance and getting parts when things break. If it's house wide you will be doubling (more or less) the cost of your electrical installation.

A lot of items are probably available in 230v for the Japanese expat market anyway, I'm fairly sure that Yaohan in London (when they were still open) sold 230v stuff and all the Japanese chains in Hong Kong do. Dunno about the electric carpets though:rolleyes:

2011

Cedrus wrote: »

I'm don't know the regs and whether it would be ok in a domestic situation

110V sockets?
It can be done safely and inline with the regulations (ET101:2008)

I have seen lots of 110V installations in labs, factories and offices here and in the UK.

So have I, particularly in workshops for safety reasons. 110VAC is also often used as a control voltage for MCC's and stop /stations that are wired to them.

It has to be designed so it's impossible to mix up the sockets, but that's easy to do.

Agreed and easily done.

I'd say the biggest issues are practical ones, like convincing the ESB to connect

Not a problem once it is certified and carried out by a registered electrical contractor.

getting house insurance

See above.

Cedrus

2011 wrote: »

Not a problem once it is certified and carried out by a registered electrical contractor.


See above.

I don't doubt that, once you get to talk to the right person, but I have in mind all of the battles that I've had with the jobsworths who don't want to understand that 'this one is different to what you're used to, but it's OK honestly, look someone who understands it better than you do has even signed a certificate saying it's OK'.

Been there, done that, the T-Shirt is unprintable.

hibby

Just popping back in to say thanks again - this discussion is very useful and I appreciate the people pointing out issues that I hadn't thought of, such as liability and insurance.

Based on what was said previously, I would not be looking for a separate distribution board, etc. A centrally-located 230V - 100V transformer, appropriately rated (we already have one) could supply 100V to the relevant locations (mainly the kitchen, maybe one other room).

Whether this was done with a long extension lead or by wiring to Japanese-style wall-mounted sockets would largely be a matter of neatness.

The supply to the transformer would be switched, to avoid losses when it was not in use.

The whole setup would be removed and made good when the time comes to sell the house.

2011

Cedrus wrote: »

I don't doubt that, once you get to talk to the right person, but I have in mind all of the battles that I've had with the jobsworths who don't want to understand that 'this one is different to what you're used to, but it's OK honestly, look someone who understands it better than you do has even signed a certificate saying it's OK'.

Been there, done that, the T-Shirt is unprintable.

We literally have hundreds of 110VAC sockets of the type shown below (commando type) installed in work, and are getting more installed at present.

I would not think that other types of 110VAC sockets would be permitted.