100V sockets in an Irish home. Possible? Legal?

Bruthal

What`s the problem with using the 100-110v sockets that are permitted in other countries, for domestic use here?

More of our over regulation in action?

I cant see the OP wanting to plug in the magic carpet into a yellow socket.

2011

ET101 page 137, 544.5.2 is interesting.

M cebee

2011 wrote: »

ET101 page 137, 544.5.2 is interesting.

ya i referenced it earlier

mazthespark

i saw an install done before in an irish home for an american family who wanted 110v around the home for their american applliances. they used restricted duty or t bar sockets for the 110v and normal sockets and switches for the 220v. worked well. you would hardly notice the difference with the 2 sockets beside each other but one will not fit into the other. the house was inspected by reci and they had no problems with the manner it was done either.

Cedrus

2011 wrote: »

We literally have hundreds of 110VAC sockets of the type shown below (commando type) installed in work, and are getting more installed at present.

I would not think that other types of 110VAC sockets would be permitted.

mazthespark wrote: »

i saw an install done before in an irish home for an american family who wanted 110v around the home for their american applliances. they used restricted duty or t bar sockets for the 110v and normal sockets and switches for the 220v. worked well. you would hardly notice the difference with the 2 sockets beside each other but one will not fit into the other. the house was inspected by reci and they had no problems with the manner it was done either.

These are the two types that I've usually seen, the yellow ones in workshops and factories and the T-Bar in labs and instrumentation workshops. Occasionally I've seen the two pin with side earths installed.

maxamillius

We recently installed
110v sockets in the hotel I work in,every room has them now,don't see why it would be an issue installing them in domestic premises

2011

hibby wrote: »

I appreciate the people pointing out issues that I hadn't thought of, such as liability and insurance.

I can't see why this would be an issue. If an insurance company were to decide not to pay a claim on the basis of an installation having 110VAC sockets installed I think they would be required to demonstrate:

1) The installation was in breach of the regulations. I see nothing in ET101 stating that 110VAC sockets are not permitted in a domestic installation.

2) The home owner had omitted/ withheld relevant information from the insurance company. Solution: Be upfront, discuss it with the insurance company prior to taking out the policy.

M cebee

usa seems to be 120/240
japan 100
so you'd prob buy the appropriate trafo

i don't think theres any issue at all with
110v cte and the en60309 sockets anywhere as they're standard.

-100v,120v and international sockets might need clarifying for domestic use.
-domestic doesn't seem to be mentioned specifically.

Bruthal

M cebee wrote: »

usa seems to be 120/240
japan 100
so you'd prob buy the appropriate trafo

i don't think theres any issue at all with
110v cte and the en60309 sockets anywhere as they're standard.

-100v,120v and international sockets might need clarifying for domestic use.
-domestic doesn't seem to be mentioned specifically.

Just put 110v trafo in, and get 21% extra heat out of the electric carpet

Stoner

there are some 110V sockets that have the traffo built into them, they have been used in some Hilton hotels, it is the american socket connection. They are a combined unit, 220V in and each one has its own traffo (rated at i think 800Watts) They remove the need for Traffos in boards and cut out cabling, but they would be of little use for kitchens, they are really for laptops and chargers etc, I'm fairly sure you can get legrand and MK to get them so that the finishes match, once they have a sticker on them indicating the limitations on the load (rating and voltage) then I don't see an issue with them, they have the US socket connections and they are a combined unit, really a recessed 220/110 unit with an american socket.

Solair

There are significant differences between the Japanese and North American systems so be careful as some sensitive Japanese equipment can be damaged if used on North American voltages (120V 60Hz these days)

Japan uses 100V 50Hz in Western Japan or 60Hz in Eastern Japan.
So, appliances are 50/60Hz.

Be careful to check what voltage the transformer you are using actually outputs. You might need to actually test it.

Irish / UK site transformers provide about 110V 50Hz across the live and neutral pins. However, they're about 55V to earth (both pins are live). This is so that if someone cuts a wire, they only ever get exposed to about 55V.

Your Japanese stuff might be happy enough supplied by one of these and they are easily available in Ireland and provide over-current / shock protection.


That makes life a lot easier for using Japanese appliances in Europe as they'll be quite happy on 50Hz, where as North American appliances (especially with synchronous motors etc) can behave rather oddly.

The challenges as I would see them:

1) 100V sockets wouldn't be exempt from RCD protection, so you'd have to provide it and I am not sure where you would buy a 100V RCD in Ireland. Maybe you could import one from Japan, but then it wouldn't be CE approved / recognised here..

2) same problem with MCBs.

3) Your wiring would need to be calculated correctly to deal with 100V. Because the voltage is quite low, you would probably need a radial 15amp circuit for every socket almost. 15AX100V = 1500W...
I am not sure if you'd be allowed to rate the circuits higher than the max rating of the socket outlets or not.

4) Plugs/Sockets would need to conform with CE standards. NEMA sockets/plugs don't as the pins are accessible as you're inserting them. So, you'd probably have to use CEEform industrial plugs to comply with the regulations here.

I suppose, you could perhaps use some other CE compliant connector with keyed pins. Using a 230V plug like BS1363 or Schuko would be dangerous if the appliance were ever connected to the wrong voltage.

To be perfectly honest, local transformers would probably be easier.
You're getting into all sorts of regulatory messes when you start using foreign voltages and non-European equipment. The wiring regulations are quite strict and specific, so you can't really interpret them very much. Even if something would work, it doesn't necessarily mean it's permitted so an electrician cannot sign off on it.

I would just buy some power-strip extension leads in Japan and connect them to CEEform yellow plugs and use them with a site transformer if I were you.

A site transformer will generally have a very good quality transformer in it, capable of dealing with power tools and other high loads. They usually have over-current protection and will trip out if overloaded too and they're also very robust and well built.

The transformer inside is designed to take in UK 230-240V and output 110V 50Hz, so I would suspect when used in Ireland it will be on the low side of 110V so, Japanese gear might be happier.

A lot of UK/EU to USA/Canada transformers are pretty crude 2:1 conversions. So, they'll output 115 - 120V which is the US spec.

Inidentally, you can buy NEMA-style sockets rated for 127V use (which I think is in the Caribbean and UAE) that fit Irish/British wall boxes and are shuttered.

http://www.fastlec.co.uk/15a-127v-flush-2g-shuttered-non-uk-socket-k2252-whi-p-10872.html#.UQLos6trmvQ

Bruthal

Solair wrote: »

The challenges as I would see them:

1) 100V sockets wouldn't be exempt from RCD protection, so you'd have to provide it and I am not sure where you would buy a 100V RCD in Ireland. Maybe you could import one from Japan, but then it wouldn't be CE approved / recognised here..

The RCD will work regardless of voltage. The test button would be the only possible problem, as well as testing them with test gear. If cte was used, no RCD needed.

2) same problem with MCBs.

They should also work, an amp is an amp.

3) Your wiring would need to be calculated correctly to deal with 100V. Because the voltage is quite low, you would probably need a radial 15amp circuit for every socket almost. 15AX100V = 1500W...
I am not sure if you'd be allowed to rate the circuits higher than the max rating of the socket outlets or not.

Probably 2 or 3 sockets per 20 amp circuit alright. They probably wouldnt need to many anyway.

4) Plugs/Sockets would need to conform with CE standards. NEMA sockets/plugs don't as the pins are accessible as you're inserting them. So, you'd probably have to use CEEform industrial plugs to comply with the regulations here.

Maybe T bar sockets could be used.

I suppose, you could perhaps use some other CE compliant connector with keyed pins. Using a 230V plug like BS1363 or Schuko would be dangerous if the appliance were ever connected to the wrong voltage.

To be perfectly honest, local transformers would probably be easier.
You're getting into all sorts of regulatory messes when you start using foreign voltages and non-European equipment. The wiring regulations are quite strict and specific, so you can't really interpret them very much. Even if something would work, it doesn't necessarily mean it's permitted so an electrician cannot sign off on it.

I would just buy some power-strip extension leads in Japan and connect them to CEEform yellow plugs and use them with a site transformer if I were you.

A site transformer will generally have a very good quality transformer in it, capable of dealing with power tools and other high loads. They usually have over-current protection and will trip out if overloaded too and they're also very robust and well built.

The transformer inside is designed to take in UK 230-240V and output 110V 50Hz, so I would suspect when used in Ireland it will be on the low side of 110V so, Japanese gear might be happier.

A lot of UK/EU to USA/Canada transformers are pretty crude 2:1 conversions. So, they'll output 115 - 120V which is the US spec.

Inidentally, you can buy NEMA-style sockets rated for 127V use (which I think is in the Caribbean and UAE) that fit Irish/British wall boxes and are shuttered.

http://www.fastlec.co.uk/15a-127v-flush-2g-shuttered-non-uk-socket-k2252-whi-p-10872.html#.UQLos6trmvQ

I think this thread is making it seem like rocket science. Again id say, over regulation seems the order of the day if a few 100v outlets cant be wired in a house.

Solair

You'd be amazed. The regulations are pretty prescriptive in most countries.

Under-regulation tends to give you the random combinations of all sorts of national standards that you find in some developing nations.
There are countries around, like Switzerland, that won't even let you wire your own plug. The US' wiring is pretty seriously tightly regulated in most states too.
The issues here is that an electrician may not be able to sign off on a non-standard installation that doesn't comply with ET 101.
If someone does DIY work it's a different story. However, I am not sure where it lands you with things like house insurance.

M cebee

it's tricky alright
100v trafo
sockets
disconnection time and rcd trip time for signing off

mcb and rcd voltage rating

mostly red tape really!


as robbie said the mcbs and rcds will operate at 100v .but the rcd voltage rating needs to be 100v anyhow for test button operation


hager rcds are all rated for 110v operation and i think some other manufacturers

i'm not clear on mcb operating voltage-is that a maximum working voltage?

Solair

To paraphrase Garret Fitzgerald:

It may all work in practice, but will it work in theory?

In general electrical regulations are a bunch of tight rules with no wiggle-room. The problem really is just red tape with all of these things, but they're designed to be idiot-proof and really to take the guess work out of it.

The aim is to have a safe, standardised system that has no major requirement for endless calculations and testing.

Because there's a risk of shock/fire, they're not flexible and anything unusual will tend to fall outside the regs.

On the RCD:

If it's supplied by a centre tapped site transformer, the max shock voltage to ground would only be about 55V anyway. Would that even require an RCD? It doesn't for site tools.

Cedrus

Solair wrote: »

It may all work in practice, but will it work in theory?

I like this, this I like!

I needed to use this quote in a site meeting this week.

Bruthal

M cebee wrote: »

i'm not clear on mcb operating voltage-is that a maximum working voltage?

When a switch or breaker is carrying current, it is just current, so a 20 amp breaker carrying 20 amps supplying 100v or 230v, will be operating the exact same.

But when it interrupts the current, the voltage appearing across the contacts will have an upper rating that the breaker can interrupt.

The breaker is interrupting the actual load, at 100v 20 amps, its 2kw, at 230v its 4.6kw

Bruthal

Solair wrote: »

In general electrical regulations are a bunch of tight rules with no wiggle-room. The problem really is just red tape with all of these things, but they're designed to be idiot-proof and really to take the guess work out of it.

The day electrical work becomes idiot proof due to rules, is the day I will like doing it.

The aim is to have a safe, standardised system that has no major requirement for endless calculations and testing.

100v or 110v is hardly unheard of. Its just unusual in a house. That does not mean its unusual. Imo, if it cant be done due to rules, then we cant call electrical work a craft.

Because there's a risk of shock/fire, they're not flexible and anything unusual will tend to fall outside the regs.

Far less risk of shock with 110v. Even contact with the full 110v is very unlikely to yield even a half decent shock. Add cte and 55v cant really/easily be perceived unless its in the gob or close. I actually think its probably unlikely to trip an RCD even with the full 110v in contact hand to hand.

On the RCD:

If it's supplied by a centre tapped site transformer, the max shock voltage to ground would only be about 55V anyway. Would that even require an RCD? It doesn't for site tools.

No RCD required for that. It could be isolated secondary side which wouldnt need one either. The problem then is there is no monitoring of the 110 side, and one pole having an earth fault, and now the other has 110 PD to earth.

A cte with RCD would be useful for reducing fire risk, but that risk is there in all circuits.

Solair

hibby wrote: »

I guess there are two issues - is it possible to "split" a 230 V supply into 2 115 V supplies? And would any electrician be willing to do it?

Eh, just to refer back to your original post. You can't actually 'split' a European 230V 50Hz power supply as it's just a 230V live and 0V neutral.

.........

In the USA, Canada and probably Japan, they use a 3-wire 'split phase' system.
This means you have a connection to a centre tapped transformer out on a pole / underground. Three wires enter your house Live 1 (115V) Live 2 (115V) and Neutral (0V).

If you connect something between the two lives, you get potential difference of 230V. The lives are 'out of phase' with each other so the potential difference is always 230V.

If you connect from either live to neutral / ground you will get 115V.

.......

In Europe this system was used in some places in the very early days of electrical power. 220V + 127V was quite common in some places before WWII but it's now obsolete and has long since been phased out of use.

The reason's pretty simple:

The North American style system requires a lot more wiring, and local transformers serving every few homes.
You typically have a local distribution system operating at at least 3000V and pole mounted can transformers or underground transformers step that down to 230/115V. Each home needs to connect to the centre point of the transformer so it has to be quite local.

Also, it makes it difficult to supply enough power to large appliances e.g. kettles, irons, etc (limited to about 1500-1700Watts in the USA vs comfortably 3000Watts in Europe).

The safety advantage of 115V over 230V is also very negligible. They will both kill you stone dead if you happen to be unlucky enough to get a current flowing across your chest. RCDs are required in both areas these days and prevent lethal shocks. It's a relatively unusual cause of death in Ireland or most of Northern / Western Europe / Australia NZ etc.. Most people killed by electric shock tend to come into contact with high voltage lines / construction site accidents etc. Rare enough to be badly shocked at home.

In Europe, in most areas (other than very rural places where pole-mounted transformers are also used) we use pretty large local transformers serving a whole area (substation).

That substation sends out three phase power. So, you've three lives at 230V and a neutral at 0V.

Each home in the area can then take one of those lives + the neutral or all three lives and the neutral if they want three-phase power (more common on the continent).

The aim is to distribute the load across all three phases. So, in Ireland you just alternate it so every third home is on a different phase. In Germany they tend to give you all three phases and you split your loads in the house across the three phases. There are arguments for/against both ways of doing it.

----

Just posting that to give you a bit of background as to why you can't 'split' the supply.

In short, the only way to get 115V in Europe is to use your own transformer. There is no source of anything lower than 230V from the power company's incoming supply.

Bruthal

Solair wrote: »

The safety advantage of 115V over 230V is also very negligible. They will both kill you stone dead if you happen to be unlucky enough to get a current flowing across your chest.

I wouldnt agree with that. 110v would be very hard to get electrocuted with. 230v is far more dangerous. Contact hand to hand with 110v wire sized contact points is perceivable. But not a lot more than just fairly perceivable. The same with 230v is far more severe. There is a major jump in shock level from 110v to 230v when the contact is hand to hand. To get a good shock from 110v would want exceptionally good contact.

And its not through assumption that im posting that, where as many people talking about 110v shocks are making assumptions that it is half of 230, so will give a good shock for the same level of contact.

Look at 55v as well, not really perceivable, yet its 1/4 of 230v which can deliver very dangerous shocks with 2 hand contact. Its probably 4 times the shock level for a double of voltage.

Solair

Bruthal wrote: »

I wouldnt agree with that. 110v would be very hard to get electrocuted with. 230v is far more dangerous. Contact hand to hand with 110v wire sized contact points is perceivable. But not a lot more than just fairly perceivable. The same with 230v is far more severe. There is a major jump in shock level from 110v to 230v when the contact is hand to hand. To get a good shock from 110v would want exceptionally good contact.

And its not through assumption that im posting that, where as many people talking about 110v shocks are making assumptions that it is half of 230, so will give a good shock for the same level of contact.

Look at 55v as well, not really perceivable, yet its 1/4 of 230v which can deliver very dangerous shocks with 2 hand contact. Its probably 4 times the shock level for a double of voltage.

It very much depends how it passes through you.

For example, I touched a faulty light fitting in France (230V) and got a mild buzz (was standing on a wooden floor). Noticed it, but only just.
While living in the USA, I stuck my hand down the back of my desk to find a piece of paper and touched a half-in/half-out plug and got thrown backwards and was dizzy for hours afterwards.

The difference was the desk was slightly grounded.
Also depends how you touch it, how conductive your skin is (physiology/how wet it is etc)

US 110-120V can and does kill!

There's a good bit of a difference from 100V to 220V but it's definitely not enough to protect you, especially in wet areas like pools/bathrooms.

For 95% of the population hand-to-hand (according to the IEC)
At 50V 6,100 Ω at 100V : 3,200 Ω at 220V 2,125 Ω, at 1000V 1,500Ω ...

It's not quite linear and there's a huge jump just beyond 50V.
Safety extra low voltages need to be <50V AC.

100V-120V was probably originally picked in the USA as up to 120V DC is regarded as relatively safe and early supply systems were all DC-only.
120V AC is definitely not safe.

Edison made a huge deal of this in the early days when competing against Westinghouse (Employed Tesla).
Edison's system used DC while Westinghouse's transmission system used AC. DC systems couldn't step voltages up/down and this made transmission very awkward. You needed generation close to the house either with small power plants or motor-generator sub-stations (noisy). While AC just needed transformers and no moving parts to step voltage up/down.
AC proved to be *FAR* more practical and was ultimately adopted in the USA. It had already been in use in Europe at this stage btw. Westinghouse's often erroneously credited with being the first to use it. For example, it was used in London on a huge scale as early as 1891, yonks before Westinghouse's systems were rolled out.

There's a tendency in the US to just assume something hasn't been invented until an American "re-invented" it

Edison constantly tried to prove that DC was safe and AC was lethal to the point that he carried out really horrific public stunts like electrocuting animals with AC, including an elephant. He also pretty much used the electric chair to demonstrate this when it was rolled out as an execution tool!! (Not invented by Edison, but by a former employee of his)

Edison may have been inventive, but his marketing stunts were pretty damn nasty!

IEC / CENELEC is a LOT more conservative about voltage:
Regarded as safe:
25V rms/AC.
and 60V DC.

So, the site transformers would be regarded as dangerous by IEC rules as it's 55V AC.

Bruthal

Solair wrote: »

There's a good bit of a difference from 100V to 220V but it's definitely not enough to protect you, especially in wet areas like pools/bathrooms.

For 95% of the population hand-to-hand (according to the IEC)
At 50V 6,100 Ω at 100V : 3,200 Ω at 220V 2,125 Ω, at 1000V 1,500Ω ...

Nothing beats an ammeter, 110v, and someone mad in the head for testing out these theory`s.
Got nowhere near the required amount to trip an RCD. Tripped them a few times on 230v during unintentional contact, and the shocks to do that were unpleasant. Got a nice one from 2300v off a commercial microwave transformer in 1994. That was a horrendous whack. Nothing like it before or since.

There is a massive difference between 110v and 230v in terms of shock danger if contact is made.

But there is little more danger of being electrocuted in a house with 230v v 110v, as its not all that easy to be electrocuted accidentally by 230v either in a domestic situation.

So, the site transformers would be regarded as dangerous by IEC rules as it's 55V AC

If a person can electrocute themselves with 55v ac, then they would deserve a posthumous award.

Solair

Eircom and BT take it to serious extremes and produce the world's only shuttered telephone sockets.

You can get a fair whack from an eircom line if it suddenly decides to ring while you've got both wires in your fingers.

about 50mA anything from about 50V to 90V 25Hz pulsed on and off superimposed over -48V DC...

You'd have the 'ring ring' tone twitching out on your finger muscles for weeks afterwards lol

Bruthal

Solair wrote: »

Eircom and BT take it to serious extremes and produce the world's only shuttered telephone sockets.

You can get a fair whack from an eircom line if it suddenly decides to ring while you've got both wires in your fingers.

about 50mA anything from about 50V to 90V 25Hz pulsed on and off superimposed over -48V DC...

Would still be doing well to be electrocuted by it.

You'd have the 'ring ring' tone twitching out on your finger muscles for weeks afterwards lol

Well, I stand by the statement that someone in a house will do very well to be electrocuted by 110v, and that 230v is a fair magnitude more potent. If you have both 110v wires in fingers in each hand as like the above phone line, it is barely perceivable, and takes quite a grip to feel more than a tingle.

What someone perceives as a fair whack is down to the individual. A few times I heard people say they were thrown across a room by contacting both pins in a light socket while standing on a bed. But did they really? Is it not a lot more likely they get a serious fright, stumble, and end up in a heap on the floor, and now feel they were lucky to be alive?

Often these shocks are more psychological than electrical.

Andrew_Doran

I was in series with ringing phone lines across the top of the fingers a few times as a child and that was fairly nasty, but being in series with 230v AC across a fingertip just for an instant was a whole different ball game, I was in pain and remember spending the rest of the day shaking after that one.

Bruthal wrote: »

Would still be doing well to be electrocuted by it.

Could a ringing phone line pose a danger to someone with a pacemaker I wonder? Might need to do something really daft.

Bruthal

Andrew_Doran wrote: »

Could a ringing phone line pose a danger to someone with a pacemaker I wonder? Might need to do something really daft.

Anything causing current through the body can affect pacemakers probably. Even carrying large speakers with their magnets close to the pacemaker might affect them.

So shocks would likely be more dangerous to pacemaker dependants.

Solair

Main thing is to treat electrical gear with caution! You never know what you might be presented with.

& if you're working on phone wiring, divert incoming calls to your mobile first... 90V up the arm isn't nice!

*21*mobile no#
#21# to cancel

Works on all Irish lines (including Smart LLU)

M cebee

Solair wrote: »

To paraphrase Garret Fitzgerald:

It may all work in practice, but will it work in theory?

In general electrical regulations are a bunch of tight rules with no wiggle-room. The problem really is just red tape with all of these things, but they're designed to be idiot-proof and really to take the guess work out of it.

The aim is to have a safe, standardised system that has no major requirement for endless calculations and testing.

Because there's a risk of shock/fire, they're not flexible and anything unusual will tend to fall outside the regs.

On the RCD:

If it's supplied by a centre tapped site transformer, the max shock voltage to ground would only be about 55V anyway. Would that even require an RCD? It doesn't for site tools.

it isn't mandatory but it's 10ma if fitted not standard 30ma
- to ensure tripping

i'm not sure which you'd use for 100v-you wouldn't be using cte imo as it's not a site supply. so it needs rcd

2011

Solair wrote: »

It very much depends how it passes through you.

For example, I touched a faulty light fitting in France (230V) and got a mild buzz (was standing on a wooden floor). Noticed it, but only just.

So what you ate really saying is that you did not have a potential difference of 230VAC across you. It is quite simple really, the higher the voltage across a person, the higher the current, and the greater the injury.
If the same light that you touched in France operated at 110VAC the "mild buzz" would have been reduced or perhaps not even felt.

Can't read all of the posts or respond properly as I'm on an iPhone, sorry.

I visited a friend in Belgium recently. He had the washing machine installed in the bathroom. The bathroom had normal (european ) plugs in the wall and normal light switches inside the bathroom.

I told him, that as far as I knew this set up would be a no-no in Ireland and I won't repeat what he said about silly IRE/UK over regulation. Later I thought about it and its true, our rules do seem excessive. A kitchen can be just as wet sometimes as a bathroom and there are no special conditions regarding cord pulls, no plugs etc.