Does the abortion debate reveal what some people really think about women?

username123

HHobo wrote: »

It is a generally accepted principle that if I have more power and control over a situation than you do, I have a proportionally greater responsibility.
This is not, nor should it be, an all-or-nothing proposition.

Ive been thinking about this today, and it is precisely because a man does NOT have the same amount of power and control over the situation that I would imagine they would be the ones to take contraception more seriously.

If I were male and I didnt know if having sex was going to result in an abortion or me being pursued through the courts for maintenance you can be sure Id be putting a lot of effort into ensuring the latter didnt happen!! To only way to take some control would be to take control of contraception to ensure I didnt lose control at a later stage.

I think you might have the logic backwards tbh.

Obviously it is the responsibility of both sexes to be aware of and take control of contraception, but the idea that the woman should invest more into it is just silly.

HHobo

username123 wrote: »

Obviously it is the responsibility of both sexes to be aware of and take control of contraception, but the idea that the woman should invest more into it is just silly.

Even if you completely ignore the imbalance of power in decision, consequences alone should be enough to suggest women should invest more into unwanted pregnancy.*

Imagine two people. When they shake hands, person A might contract a condition that person B is immune to.

This condition will radically affect the health of person A for the best part of a year. This condition carries significant risk and can even be fatal. Person A can ameliorate the condition but at the risk of psychological harm. It may leave person A in the position of having to treat the condition's after effects for the rest of their life.

Person B might be required to contribute to person A's medical expences for the rest of their life. Person A, if they really don't feel like accepting any responsibility can hop a plane and prentend it never happened.

Would you honestly say that the suggestion that person A should probably invest a little more in prevention is "just silly"?

Edit. * prevention. Quite an important ommission!

clairefontaine

You are both right.

The woman has greater responsibility because she bears the greater consequence and accountability, which is precisely why she has the greater power [though ask women in that position and powerful is the last thing they feel].

But if you as a man do not invest in the responsibility, than you can hardly complain that you have no power when the very tough choice has to be made.

The power is a product of the responsibility, not vice versa.

username123

HHobo wrote: »

Would you honestly say that the suggestion that person A should probably invest a little more in prevention is "just silly"?

Yes - because of this:

HHobo wrote: »

Person B might be required to contribute to person A's medical expences for the rest of their life. Person A, if they really don't feel like accepting any responsibility can hop a plane and prentend it never happened.

Person B can NEVER choose to do that unless person A agrees.

Im simply giving a viewpoint from my perspective - which is female. I am assuming if I were male that I would be pretty paranoid about contraception because I would have no control over person A (do we really need the analogy btw - surely pregnancy covers the story lol!). As I woman I take care of contraception for myself and I know what I would do if I had an unwanted pregnancy. As a man I would never have that certainty.

Probably my female perspective is missing something from the male perspective, and obviously, morally, responsibility for contraception lies with both.

In real terms it doesnt and shouldnt come down to who has power over who, but the fact is, the law in this country does not allow women power over their own bodies, so an unwanted pregnancy could very easily result in a birth - no matter what person A or person B would really want.

Honey-ec

username123 wrote: »

am assuming if I were male that I would be pretty paranoid about contraception because I would have no control over person A.

It's natural to think that when you're looking at it from a female perspective, but I have to say, my general experience has been the exact opposite - the vast majority of the men I've slept with have been more than happy to assume that the woman is "looking after" the contraceptive side of things and in all but a handful of cases, I've been the one to bring it up.

As unpalatable as it seems, Hhobo is right - a lot of men (not all, by any means, but a lot) are more than happy to assume the woman is taking care of things in the background quite simply because she has more of a vested interest in not getting pregnant than he does.

That's not even getting into the whole issue of STIs. For a LOT of the women I know, an unplanned pregnancy is the only thing that crosses their mind when it comes to unprotected sex/accidents.

username123

Honey-ec wrote: »

It's natural to think that when you're looking at it from a female perspective, but I have to say, my general experience has been the exact opposite - the vast majority of the men I've slept with have been more than happy to assume that the woman is "looking after" the contraceptive side of things and in all but a handful of cases, I've been the one to bring it up.

As unpalatable as it seems, Hhobo is right - a lot of men (not all, by any means, but a lot) are more than happy to assume the woman is taking care of things in the background quite simply because she has more of a vested interest in not getting pregnant than he does.

That's not even getting into the whole issue of STIs. For a LOT of the women I know, an unplanned pregnancy is the only thing that crosses their mind when it comes to unprotected sex/accidents.

I agree with you Honey-ec - in real terms men probably are far more lax than women regarding contraception. I have had experience of possibly 3 men who were paranoid about contraception to the point that they would not have sex unless they were happy the contraception was all in order. In all 3 cases they had seen a best friend or brother or something who had had a crisis pregnancy, assumed the woman would go to the UK, and the woman in each case decided not to, putting them on the hook legally for financial support for the next 18-22 years.

In saying that, my sister in law had pregnancy scare after pregnancy scare until she finally had a child, 8 years later, she hasnt had one pregnancy scare since.

When you think it through, I do believe it is really men who should be the ones more worried about potential outcomes. I agree the reality is different, but that may be more because not as many people think it through.

HHobo

username123 wrote: »

Yes - because of this:
Person B can NEVER choose to do that unless person A agrees.

I don't really understand what you mean by that. In the case where a woman decides to have an abortion, a man is powerless to prevent it.
If a guy decides to leave the country rather than deal with his responsibilities, the woman in question is just as powerless to prevent this.

username123 wrote: »

Im simply giving a viewpoint from my perspective - which is female. I am assuming if I were male that I would be pretty paranoid about contraception because I would have no control over person A (do we really need the analogy btw - surely pregnancy covers the story lol!). As I woman I take care of contraception for myself and I know what I would do if I had an unwanted pregnancy. As a man I would never have that certainty.

I completely agree that contraception is something that should be of major concern to men. I personally would take great care in this regard as would most of the men I know. I have also been in a long term relationship where she was taking care of contraception. I was placing a significant deal of trust in her when that was the case. Aside from simply insisting, ad infinitum, that condoms are non-negotiable I would have little choice but to extend that trust. This is the only real choice I have.

username123 wrote: »

Probably my female perspective is missing something from the male perspective, and obviously, morally, responsibility for contraception lies with both.

The only argument I have with this, is that women want the responsibility for contraception to be equal, morally etc. but if she becomes pregnant she seems rather reluctant to share the moral choice of termination or not equally. I think she should, infact must, have the far greater level of choice about what happens in the case of pregnancy. She might listen to his perspective, but ultimately she gets whatever she wants in this scenario. I simlpy can't imagine too many women allow the man involved to have an equal amount of choice morally or otherwise. It is a very unpopular opinion here, but I do feel that a disparity in power to choose, does impart a disparity of responsibility. About the only solution I can see to this, and it is woefully imperfect I admit, is to allow men the choice to abdicate their parentage legally. There is simply nothing you can do if he wants to keep the child and she doesn't.

username123 wrote: »

In real terms it doesnt and shouldnt come down to who has power over who, but the fact is, the law in this country does not allow women power over their own bodies, so an unwanted pregnancy could very easily result in a birth - no matter what person A or person B would really want.

I don't see this as realistic. I really doubt that any woman who wants an abortion will not simlpy go to the UK and get one in order to be a law abiding citizen. Whether or not it should be the case or not, it does come down to who has more power to act.

I think, for the abortion debate to move forward, we need to start dealing with how things actualy are not how things should be in a completely equitable world. If you are female and pregnant and you didn't plan to be then you have some very tough choices. If you are male and involved in an unplanned pregnancy, you have to stand by powerlessly while some very tough choices are made. There is no realistic way to change this scenario.
It would be unconscionable to even consider forcing abortions on unwilling women, and I personally find it equally noxious to demand that she carry an unwanted pregnancy to term. Everyone should have, at a minimun, complete sovereignty over their own body. After that we have to try to put together the fairest set of rules we can. A very difficult task in the case of abortion.

lazygal

Not every woman can afford to go to the UK, or may have dependents she can't leave. So in a case where a woman in Ireland is unable to go to the UK, her only option is to remain pregnant.

dark crystal

username123 wrote: »

Is it not obvious why people do not consider adoption as a real option? If someone gets pregnant without intending to, why on earth would they want the interruption to their lives of carrying that pregnancy to term (with associated health risks - both physical and mental health), the ruination of their social standing (by this I mean facing judgement at every turn) and then at the end of it, a painful labour, and giving birth to a child that they then give away?

I cant understand why anyone would choose it! Pregnancy is a public event because its obvious that someone is pregnant (in most cases). Can you imagine being in work and being pregnant and people asking all the normal questions like when is the baby due etc... and what do you hope to have etc.. and the answer being "none of it really matters because Im giving it up for adoption". I cannot see how it could be done in any practical sense without hiding away for the term of the pregnancy and then re-emerging later not pregnant and with no baby.

The only way to get around the public view would be to pretend some story like you were being a surrogate for someone. I dont think many womens jobs would be too accomodating if they thought the woman was being someones surrogate and availing of maternity leave/benefit/top up either.

Its just not a practical solution. Why would anyone want to be an incubator (with the exception of surrogacy)?

I would imagine because some women who find themselves pregnant may not wish to bring up the child they're carrying, but would be against terminating the pregnancy either. They value the life of the baby, but understand they simply could not give that child the best life it deserves. In that case, adoption is a perfectly viable option.

I understand your points about the social stigma attached, but I'll be perfectly honest here, I find it kind of sad that ending a pregnancy should be seen as somehow more socially acceptable than placing that child with a family who will love and cherish him or her instead.
Thank goodness we no longer live in a country where women are shunted off into 'laundries' (religious work camps) and forced to give their babies away. I completely understand how utterly heartbreaking it must be to give a child away and I'm not saying it's an easy option at all, but to be so dismissive of that option is wrong, imo.

Although I wouldn't consider abortion a choice I would ever personally make, I am pro-choice for women in general and the key word here is choice. Surely adoption should be seen just as much as a viable choice for women as abortion is.

I would like to think that when discussing how society judges women for choosing abortion, we could also look at how they judge women for placing their babies for adoption. The social and personal stigma you describe above can only be removed if an open and honest debate can take place and women who choose adoption are given just as much support as those who choose abortion. This is the only way societal attitudes will change.

username123

HHobo wrote: »

I don't really understand what you mean by that. In the case where a woman decides to have an abortion, a man is powerless to prevent it.
If a guy decides to leave the country rather than deal with his responsibilities, the woman in question is just as powerless to prevent this.

Ill just try to clarify this for you HHobo - then I think we should let this particular debate rest, we clearly have differing views, I respect your viewpoint.

Just to go back to your analogy.
Person A can decide to go to the UK and come back and pick up life where it left off. Or can decide to go ahead and have a child.

Person B - you are saying that the man can leave the country. Thats a MASSIVE life consequence - arguably a larger one than having a child. And he can still be pursued for maintenance if he stays in the EU. And if he doesnt - do you seriously think that walking out on a life, family, friends, a job etc... is on an equal par with going to the UK for an abortion and coming back again? It simply isnt - imo.

I understand what you are saying about allowing men to abdicate the responsibility legally - I dont agree with it, but I do understand it.

On an aside, I personally know some women who could not go to the UK for an abortion simply because they couldnt afford it. Im also in total agreement with you on forced abortions and forced pregnancies being unacceptable. Unfortunately we have forced pregnancy in this country by law, its not nice as a woman to have lived and continue to live under the shadow of that.

username123

dark crystal wrote: »

I would imagine because some women who find themselves pregnant may not wish to bring up the child they're carrying, but would be against terminating the pregnancy either. They value the life of the baby, but understand they simply could not give that child the best life it deserves. In that case, adoption is a perfectly viable option.

I agree, and if thats what someone wants, then I am in full support of them doing that. But in real terms, Im not sure how many women would want to do it at all, given the consequences in terms of a pregnancy being public, stigmatisation, and then obviously the trauma of giving up a child etc...

The point I was making is this, abortion is not just about not wanting a child for many women, its about not wanting a pregnancy - at all.

HHobo

username123 wrote: »

Ill just try to clarify this for you HHobo - then I think we should let this particular debate rest, we clearly have differing views, I respect your viewpoint.

I have come to the same conclusions.

username123 wrote: »

Im also in total agreement with you on forced abortions and forced pregnancies being unacceptable. Unfortunately we have forced pregnancy in this country by law, its not nice as a woman to have lived and continue to live under the shadow of that.

Given the debate underway in country at the moment. Changing this is would be a good first step.

dark crystal

username123 wrote: »

I agree, and if thats what someone wants, then I am in full support of them doing that. But in real terms, Im not sure how many women would want to do it at all, given the consequences in terms of a pregnancy being public, stigmatisation, and then obviously the trauma of giving up a child etc...

But it's that very stigma I would like to see broken. Why should a woman who makes a decision that she feels is in the best interest of her child be stigmatised at all? In 2013, it's so sad that adoption is still seen as such a social taboo.

The point I was making is this, abortion is not just about not wanting a child for many women, its about not wanting a pregnancy - at all.

And for those women, abortion would clearly be the best decision.

username123

dark crystal wrote: »

But it's that very stigma I would like to see broken. Why should a woman who makes a decision that she feels is in the best interest of her child be stigmatised at all? In 2013, it's so sad that adoption is still seen as such a social taboo.

Yeah, I agree with you. There should be no stigma. But there is - unfortunately.

If it were a more commonly taken up option (de-stigmatised) - how do you think women who chose it would be viewed in the workplace. I dont think an employer would be happy with someone progressing with a pregnancy (hospital appointments etc...), taking maternity leave (and top up pay if it were available), and then giving the child up for adoption and remaining on full legal maternity leave. Imagine someone doing this twice or three times. Do you think they would be viewed negatively in the workplace - even if the stigma surrounding giving a child up for adoption itself didnt exist?

Neyite

But for some women, adoption does not fully resolve the issue either. You know that in 18 years or so, that child will probably come looking for you. They will want to know why they were given up. They will want to meet any other biological siblings they have, and extended relatives. If you don't meet your biological child as an adult, you go through the hurt all over again and now you reject an adult through no fault of their own.

So you get judged by friends and the wider family circle for giving up a baby because you were too busy enjoying yourself, or wanted to finish your thesis, or you were unemployed at the time. The child will want to know details of the father, so if it was a disastrous relationship you are forced to dredge up old memories of that time. If you remained with the father and had more children at a later stage, the agony of adoption for all involved seems pointless in hindsight, since you went on to have a family anyway. And people forget to judge the scared penniless 16 year old, they'll judge the successful 34 year old with the nice car house and good job.

dark crystal

All valid points, but we also need to highlight the happy adoption stories, not just the negative aspects.

Most adoptees live very happy lives, are loved very much and adore their adoptive parents. Of course they will have questions later in life and it's up to the birth mother to weigh up all of these options when making her decision. I don't think any decisions made when experiencing an unwanted pregnancy are easy ones - it's just an awful situation to be in.

I remember a girl in my secondary school who got pregnant and gave the baby up for adoption. Surprisingly, she was really supported in her decision by the school and her peers and this was a Catholic school in 1992! I thought she was so incredibly brave at the time, although it must have been such a horrible time for her.

I understand that option isn't the answer for a lot of women, but perhaps if there was less of a stigma attached to adoption, more women may be more inclined to choose it and less people would judge them for it.

lazygal

I honestly don't think its the stigma of adoption that puts women off, its the hassle of pregnancy. I wouldn't go through pregnancy unless I REALLY wanted to and I'd have no hesitation in getting an abortion in certain circumstances. Pregnancy is crap. Even when its totally straightforward its crap. Its intrusive, you have to limit what you eat, drink, wear, do - sure your right to travel is limited by certain airline restrictions. It leaves long term side effects, like having an episiotomy (being cut down below to help baby deliver safely), dental issues (the old wives' tale of losing a tooth for every child is true for some women), your body shape is all out of whack, you might be pucking for months on end (my all day nausea never left me completely) which can do damage to the digestive system. There's days where all you want to eat is a forbidden food, in my case sushi, or do something pregnant women shouldn't, like have a long sauna session. But you can't because you're growing a preshus tiiiiiiineeeeeee baaaaaaayyyyybeeeee.

Its not a walk in the park being pregnant, and as I said stigma would be the least of my worries if I had an unwanted pregnancy.

dark crystal

lazygal wrote: »

I honestly don't think its the stigma of adoption that puts women off, its the hassle of pregnancy. I wouldn't go through pregnancy unless I REALLY wanted to and I'd have no hesitation in getting an abortion in certain circumstances. Pregnancy is crap. Even when its totally straightforward its crap. Its intrusive, you have to limit what you eat, drink, wear, do - sure your right to travel is limited by certain airline restrictions. It leaves long term side effects, like having an episiotomy (being cut down below to help baby deliver safely), dental issues (the old wives' tale of losing a tooth for every child is true for some women), your body shape is all out of whack, you might be pucking for months on end (my all day nausea never left me completely) which can do damage to the digestive system. There's days where all you want to eat is a forbidden food, in my case sushi, or do something pregnant women shouldn't, like have a long sauna session. But you can't because you're growing a preshus tiiiiiiineeeeeee baaaaaaayyyyybeeeee.

Its not a walk in the park being pregnant, and as I said stigma would be the least of my worries if I had an unwanted pregnancy.

I guess everyone is different - I loved being pregnant. No sickness or discomfort and I'm not a big drinker or sushi eater (yuck!). Not everyone experiences all those bad things!

It was just the giving birth bit I hated :P

lazygal

dark crystal wrote: »

I guess everyone is different - I loved being pregnant. No sickness or discomfort and I'm not a big drinker or sushi eater (yuck!). Not everyone experiences all those bad things!

It was just the giving birth bit I hated :P

I actually found the birth and the newborn stage way easier, no more puking and I could wear normal clothes again!

eviltwin

I don't think stigma has much to do with it, maybe more to do with what you tell people in the future but not so much about the decision. Its a very personal thing and I trust most women to know in their heart what is right for them regardless of what "society" thinks. Giving a child up for adoption is huge, mentally and emotionally its a lot to ask of someone but I'm sure every woman in a crisis pregnancy knows its an option. If she chooses to have an abortion or keep the child then thats up to her to decide.

clairefontaine

lazygal wrote: »

I honestly don't think its the stigma of adoption that puts women off, its the hassle of pregnancy. I wouldn't go through pregnancy unless I REALLY wanted to and I'd have no hesitation in getting an abortion in certain circumstances. Pregnancy is crap. Even when its totally straightforward its crap. Its intrusive, you have to limit what you eat, drink, wear, do - sure your right to travel is limited by certain airline restrictions. It leaves long term side effects, like having an episiotomy (being cut down below to help baby deliver safely), dental issues (the old wives' tale of losing a tooth for every child is true for some women), your body shape is all out of whack, you might be pucking for months on end (my all day nausea never left me completely) which can do damage to the digestive system. There's days where all you want to eat is a forbidden food, in my case sushi, or do something pregnant women shouldn't, like have a long sauna session. But you can't because you're growing a preshus tiiiiiiineeeeeee baaaaaaayyyyybeeeee.

Its not a walk in the park being pregnant, and as I said stigma would be the least of my worries if I had an unwanted pregnancy.

There are so many risks involved in pregnancy that people forget about. A 25% c section rate at present, all sorts of other risks both physical and psychological too, sometimes life threatening. Not to mention expenses. Plus if you already have kids, how to explain to them that you are giving up their sibling? How do you explain to the child you gave up why you kept them and not me? And as you get older the risks to your health increase too.

pwurple

Neyite wrote: »

But for some women, adoption does not fully resolve the issue either. You know that in 18 years or so, that child will probably come looking for you. They will want to know why they were given up. They will want to meet any other biological siblings they have, and extended relatives. If you don't meet your biological child as an adult, you go through the hurt all over again and now you reject an adult through no fault of their own.

So you get judged by friends and the wider family circle for giving up a baby because you were too busy enjoying yourself, or wanted to finish your thesis, or you were unemployed at the time. The child will want to know details of the father, so if it was a disastrous relationship you are forced to dredge up old memories of that time. If you remained with the father and had more children at a later stage, the agony of adoption for all involved seems pointless in hindsight, since you went on to have a family anyway. And people forget to judge the scared penniless 16 year old, they'll judge the successful 34 year old with the nice car house and good job.

Neyite, with open adoptions there doesn't have to be that seperation for 18 years any more. Adoption is not what it used to be at all.

The judgement you describe in your second paragraph is something I would like to see eliminated, so that women had an actual choice. I don't know a single peer who gave a child up for adoption, but I know plenty of people who have had abortions. Some with huge regret, some are happy with their choice.

None of the three options in a crisis pregnancy are easy. Abortion is painful, physically, emotionally, every way. There's plenty of stigma and judgement associated with it too, so much so that many women bear the weight of that secret for decades, or to their grave. Adoption and changing your life for a baby you keep are hard roads to take too.

I'd like to see the stigma in all three taken outog the equation, so at least that wouldn't be the deciding factor. We all have sex, what's the big secret.

clairefontaine

Neyite wrote: »

But for some women, adoption does not fully resolve the issue either. You know that in 18 years or so, that child will probably come looking for you. They will want to know why they were given up. They will want to meet any other biological siblings they have, and extended relatives. If you don't meet your biological child as an adult, you go through the hurt all over again and now you reject an adult through no fault of their own.

So you get judged by friends and the wider family circle for giving up a baby because you were too busy enjoying yourself, or wanted to finish your thesis, or you were unemployed at the time. The child will want to know details of the father, so if it was a disastrous relationship you are forced to dredge up old memories of that time. If you remained with the father and had more children at a later stage, the agony of adoption for all involved seems pointless in hindsight, since you went on to have a family anyway. And people forget to judge the scared penniless 16 year old, they'll judge the successful 34 year old with the nice car house and good job.

I know of someone who was given up for adoption by a very well known actress. She gave him up because she wanted to be a star. That was the reason. She had money, her family had money and she had status, but she wanted stardom. I struggle not being judgemental about this.

jank

username123 wrote: »

In the past newborns were ripped out of new mothers hands and taken by religious orders for adoption, thank god that that barbaric practice no longer happens..

This is not entirely true in ALL cases.

username123 wrote: »

Women are not forced to endure a pregnancy and give a child up for adoption anymore and society is a better place for it.

Thats a strange assumption to make, that society is better place for it? Look at England and the amount of children running around the place lucky to have one parent never mind two.

username123 wrote: »

Is it not obvious why people do not consider adoption as a real option?.......


....I cant understand why anyone would choose it! ?

Whatever about you I am glad my mother did. Otherwise I woudn't exist.

username123

jank wrote: »

This is not entirely true in ALL cases.

Nor did I say it was, but it happened.

jank wrote: »

Thats a strange assumption to make, that society is better place for it? Look at England and the amount of children running around the place lucky to have one parent never mind two.

I dont really understand what you mean by this? I meant society is a better place for having enforced pregnancy and not brutally taking newborns away from mothers. Im not sure what connection that has English society?

jank wrote: »

Whatever about you I am glad my mother did. Otherwise I woudn't exist.

If you mean above that you are glad your mother didnt abort, that is simply a fallacious argument, any of us could say the same. We wouldnt be aware of it if our mother had aborted us had so what difference does it make? Its not like emotional distress would have been caused. We are all the product of an extremely chancey outcome of events by which that particular sperm met that particular egg and a successful pregnancy ensued and on back through our ancestors etc.... We may not be here at all for a billion different reasons but we dont go round being thankful for it. Pondering existentialism is fun, but its not really relevant to any debate on abortion.

Malari

clairefontaine wrote: »

I know of someone who was given up for adoption by a very well known actress. She gave him up because she wanted to be a star. That was the reason. She had money, her family had money and she had status, but she wanted stardom. I struggle not being judgemental about this.

I don't get this. Why would you judge her for this? Is there a list of valid reasons where adoption is acceptable? Just because a woman has money doesn't mean she has to keep the baby.

clairefontaine

Malari wrote: »

I don't get this. Why would you judge her for this? Is there a list of valid reasons where adoption is acceptable? Just because a woman has money doesn't mean she has to keep the baby.

I suppose because one of the ways we rate ourselves and each other is how we treat our offspring.

Adoption and abortion are viewed as tough decisions, often involving pain and sacrifice, so one tends to think that the reasons aren't superfluous, but I guess sometimes they are.

eviltwin

clairefontaine wrote: »

I suppose because one of the ways we rate ourselves and each other is how we treat our offspring.

Adoption and abortion are viewed as tough decisions, often involving pain and sacrifice, so one tends to think that the reasons aren't superfluous, but I guess sometimes they are.

Would you judge her if she had decided to have an abortion instead?

lazygal

clairefontaine wrote: »

I suppose because one of the ways we rate ourselves and each other is how we treat our offspring.

Adoption and abortion are viewed as tough decisions, often involving pain and sacrifice, so one tends to think that the reasons aren't superfluous, but I guess sometimes they are.

I don't get why you judge any woman for making a decision and her motivations for doing so. Should she have kept the child because she was financially secure? It takes a lot more than money to stop you from resenting a child you never wanted.

It seems in some people eyes women's choices are never justified. Having an abortion because you don't want children to interfere with a career you've spent years building is bad, giving up a child for adoption because you want a career is bad, keeping a child and resenting it forever is bad. There's no pleasing some people.

Malari

clairefontaine wrote: »

I suppose because one of the ways we rate ourselves and each other is how we treat our offspring.

Adoption and abortion are viewed as tough decisions, often involving pain and sacrifice, so one tends to think that the reasons aren't superfluous, but I guess sometimes they are.

But you don't know the reasons she gave the baby up, do you? Are you surmising that because she was wealthy enough and she wanted to be a star that her choice was poor? What about everything else that may have been going on with her? I just feel so strongly that no-one but the woman herself knows the true reasons and motivations for doing something like this.

username123

clairefontaine wrote: »

I suppose because one of the ways we rate ourselves and each other is how we treat our offspring.

Adoption and abortion are viewed as tough decisions, often involving pain and sacrifice, so one tends to think that the reasons aren't superfluous, but I guess sometimes they are.

I dont really understand this.

I personally wouldnt rate people by how they treat their offspring (unless they are neglecting or torturing them!), I dont see giving a child up for adoption as "treating" your offspring in any negative way no matter what the reason.

As for abortion and adoption being tough decisions, for me the decision to keep the baby would be a lot tougher. I simply dont want a child. Now we could add some kind of further causal relation to that, I dont want a child because I want to study/travel/have personal freedom/have more money etc.... but the bottom line is - I dont want a child. Perhaps the "star" didnt want a child and the being a "star" was simply an extra unnecessary explanation to that. Either way, its no worse or better a reason than any other imo.

clairefontaine

Ok I was very honest about struggling not to be judgemental about this particular family, whom I know. As I said it's a struggle, it's not a conviction I have.

However, I am feeling a little bit judged myself here, not to mention gang busted, so I am withdrawing from this dialogue.

Enjoy ladies.

eviltwin

clairefontaine wrote: »

Ok I was very honest about struggling not to be judgemental about this particular family, whom I know. As I said it's a struggle, it's not a conviction I have.

However, I am feeling a little bit judged myself here, not to mention gang busted, so I am withdrawing from this dialogue.

Enjoy ladies.

I wasn't judging you, just curious. You can't help how you feel but its interesting that you feel that way. I just wondered more about what was behind your feelings, you mentioned her desire for fame, presumably she would have had an abortion on the same grounds so I'm just wondering if people's judgements are based more on a woman's reasons for making their choice to have an abortion/put child up for adoption rather than the act itself iykwim

I hope you come back to the conversation, you raised some good points.

username123

clairefontaine wrote: »

Ok I was very honest about struggling not to be judgemental about this particular family, whom I know. As I said it's a struggle, it's not a conviction I have.

However, I am feeling a little bit judged myself here, not to mention gang busted, so I am withdrawing from this dialogue.

Enjoy ladies.

I genuinely just didnt understand what you meant. I wasnt judging you - although your post raised an excellent point regarding the fact that women do get judged for their choices re abortion/adoption - and that even though adoption would be seen as the lesser of two evils for some, the woman in question may still end up being judged.

I am sorry you felt gangbusted, I actually was writing my post and hadnt realised other people had quoted and answered your post when I posted mine.

I think you have made an excellent contribution to this thread and Id be sorry to see you leave.

clairefontaine

It's ok. It's just when you see about six people asking you the same question consecutively it's a bit much. I may have read the tone wrong too. Easy to do on this medium.

The man in question is in his 40s so this would have happened at a very different time than now.

I suppose it depends too on the adoptees response too to hearing his mother didn't want him. Somehow it might help if they hear it's a result of hardship rather than a desire for public admiration.

I do think the reasons behind why anyone does something has a lot to do with how we judge it. Take for example the simple act of showing up late for work. "I felt like it" is not acceptable. Neither is "I couldn't find my lipstick. ""Bad weather" more acceptable. "My mother/father had a heart attack" even more so.

If you know people who have had a painful experience as a result of adoption, it's very very hard not to be judgemental, at least for me and the circumstances have a lot to do with it.

Maybe for some, this is an easy choice to make, but if it weren't so problematic, I don't think we would be having this conversation.

Malari

Just to echo what other ladies said, I'm sorry you felt attacked Claire! I guess I agreed with most of what you posted previously on the thread so questioned what you posted because it seemed incongruous and I was genuinely interested in what made you feel that way. Especially as you admitted to feeling almost reluctantly judgemental :-)

lazygal

I also think I posted as others were posting. The second part of my post, on how women are judged no matter what decision they make, was a general observation, not aimed at anyone in the thread.

clairefontaine

Malari wrote: »

Just to echo what other ladies said, I'm sorry you felt attacked Claire! I guess I agreed with most of what you posted previously on the thread so questioned what you posted because it seemed incongruous and I was genuinely interested in what made you feel that way. Especially as you admitted to feeling almost reluctantly judgemental :-)

I'm thinking it through myself as I go along here and I don't pretend to be evenly consistent and without contradiction, such is the price of being human. It's what makes us flawed and what makes us interesting right?

Aside from the moral quagmires of abortion, I think there are a lot of reasons women choose it over adoption outside of stigma, one being the answerability one day to the adult child you gave up. The consequences of your decision are both invisible and also alive. I can't imagine how that must feel. But I have come close, become close to a couple of people who had been adopted and some are ok with it, and others have really struggled with it [I had found one friend's mother for him when he was 35. He died a year later. His mother lost him then for a second time, and that time for good, it ripped me apart that she felt indebted to me for giving her one year to get to know her son and to meet her grandson.] For those who sufferred it is very hard not to be judgemental because when you encounter their hurt, you encounter the consequences of their mother's decisions.

And yet despite that judgementalism, I know it's not productive, I know it gets us nowhere in the end. Because what we need is more understanding, and if there were more of that going around, perhaps there would be less women making these difficult choices and less children, women, families, all of us hurting.

I'm preaching and it aint even Sunday.:rolleyes::rolleyes:

Malari

^^ Well that makes a lot more sense that your original post on the subject It's the way I feel about adoption personally and a reason I would never do it if I had an unplanned pregnancy. But I have to accept that it is the right choice for others, no matter what the circumstances. And I know a woman who did meet up with her birth parents very late in life and it was one of the best things that ever happened to her. I guess my stance is if we feel we can't tell women they shouldn't abort we can't tell people that their adoption reasons have to have a certain standard of desperation and sacrifice too.

username123

clairefontaine wrote: »

And yet despite that judgementalism, I know it's not productive, I know it gets us nowhere in the end. Because what we need is more understanding, and if there were more of that going around, perhaps there would be less women making these difficult choices and less children, women, families, all of us hurting.

Yeah big time. There is judgmentalism from both sides in the abortion debate and somehow no matter what choice a woman makes - there is always someone who finds a reason to judge it (and find it lacking). Interestingly, men seem free of any judgment attached to reasons for adoption. Ive never really heard any adoptee friends mention any particular feelings towards birth fathers but I have listened to a spectrum of emotion on the subject of birth mothers (some great stories, some sad ones, some just full of anger).

Similar to Malari - I dont think we can tell anyone what they should be doing in relation to abortion or adoption or indeed motherhood. People need to do what is best for them for whatever reason is relevant for them and it is not for us to judge that reason. As was already said in the thread - we all have sex - so why is there any judgment on the outcome of it?

clairefontaine

username123 wrote: »

Yeah big time. There is judgmentalism from both sides in the abortion debate and somehow no matter what choice a woman makes - there is always someone who finds a reason to judge it (and find it lacking). Interestingly, men seem free of any judgment attached to reasons for adoption. Ive never really heard any adoptee friends mention any particular feelings towards birth fathers but I have listened to a spectrum of emotion on the subject of birth mothers (some great stories, some sad ones, some just full of anger).

Similar to Malari - I dont think we can tell anyone what they should be doing in relation to abortion or adoption or indeed motherhood. People need to do what is best for them for whatever reason is relevant for them and it is not for us to judge that reason. As was already said in the thread - we all have sex - so why is there any judgment on the outcome of it?

It makes you feel powerful for a few minutes. So the question is what vulnerability is it protecting you from? My guess is that our parents might not love us, that deep down abandonment was always there lurking somewhere possibly and that its a truth not universally acknowledged that a mother's love is unconditional. And those conditions run the gamut.

We like to think its because they were poor or abused or whatever and that's why they couldn't, not because they didn't feel like it.

username123

clairefontaine wrote: »

We like to think its because they were poor or abused or whatever and that's why they couldn't, not because they didn't feel like it.

Yes, that could certainly be a reason. Perhaps a feeling of moral superiority in some cases also (Im specifically thinking religious judgmentalism on that).

clairefontaine

username123 wrote: »

Yes, that could certainly be a reason. Perhaps a feeling of moral superiority in some cases also (Im specifically thinking religious judgmentalism on that).

Moral choices like these are never easy and when you make moral choices, whether it's abortion, adoption, the death penalty, euthanasia, war, you are going to face criticism and judgement. It can't be avoided. It's one of the sucky things about adulthood.

Morag

Tuesday I was invited to a meeting in Lenister House by one of my TDs.
Patrick Nulty held a meeting for constituents who had contacted him in support of XCase Ruling legislation. He said that TDs need to be encouraged to vote for it, that the majority of the people in the country agree with having such legislation but that they get swamped with messages from the other side.

So if you have the time please contact your TDs they need all the encouragement they can get. http://www.nwci.ie/takeaction/

Fizzlesque

clairefontaine wrote: »

Aside from the moral quagmires of abortion, I think there are a lot of reasons women choose it over adoption outside of stigma, one being the answerability one day to the adult child you gave up.

The accountability to your adult child is an enormous factor which is often overlooked (along with a myriad of factors that are overlooked when anti-choice people offer adoption as an alternative). I struggle enormously with the fact that my decision to have my baby adopted wasn't as selfless as people always try to tell me it was, when they learn I chose to have my child adopted. The fact I was 20 years old (a very young and immature 20 years old at that) with no support, no job, no money, and was more than a little emotionally damaged from a neglectful/abusive childhood, and the fact my father talked me into believing I'd make a dreadful mess of both our (mine and the baby's) lives are what I'll be focusing on when/if my (now-24 year old) daughter decides she'd like to get to know me and asks me the inevitable 'why' question, but, I'd be a liar if I pretended part of me didn't appreciate the opportunity to keep my freedom and to live my young life without having to mature overnight and without a child depending on me.

I've noticed myself mentally stuff that part of my story into a cupboard in my mind because it fills me with all sorts of negative emotions: (1) will my child hate me when/if she learns my decision wasn't 100% based on what's better for her (2) do I deserve the deep emotional turmoil that finally found its way to the surface (after I'd buried it deeply for years) when I attended counseling for depression and discovered extreme unresolved grief related to my child's adoption was the culprit, and not, as I'd erroneously presumed, related to my abusive childhood - like a form of self harm, berating myself for being weak and heartless and making my child suffer, even though, at the time I thought I was saving her (thanks to my father's ability to convince me of almost anything).

Since starting to follow this thread, I've been trying to remember back to when I was pregnant, with regard to stigma, and did it play a part. I didn't make my decision to adopt until I was five months pregnant, before then I was fully intending on keeping my baby and becoming a mother, but, as I mentioned earlier, my father talked me into believing I'd make a royal mess of everything and, perhaps indicative of how immature and 'still-a-child-myself' I was, I fully embraced the picture of my incompetence and agreed to consider adoption. As this idea was solidifying in my mind, I used worry about what to tell people - at one point I considered pretending the baby was still-born. I laugh when I think back because in the end I opted for the total opposite: to never allow my daughter's existence to become something nobody mentions, helped enormously by the fact her adoption is semi-open so I've had photographs to show people over the years.

In 24 years I've only had three people abuse me for my choice ("dirty slag who discards her baby so she can sleep around and party non stop") everyone else has been emotionally supportive (listening to me when I need to talk about my daughter) and understanding that the pain never goes away (drying my tears for the thousandth time) it just hides itself better at times and refuses to hide itself at other times.

However, unfortunately, there is only one person in the world who has the power to make me feel at peace with my decision, and all I can do is wait in limbo for her to be ready to begin that process. I both dread that day and desperately want it to hurry up and arrive - it's an emotional 'push-me-pull-you' that colours every day of my life.

My apologies for the length of this post - I always try not to post on this topic because once I start it's difficult to stop, but I think it's as important for women who've chosen adoption to share their experiences as it is for women who've chosen abortion to share their experiences. If I could go back in time, I'd want to know what I now know, so I could make a different choice.

username123

Fizzlesque wrote: »

In 24 years I've only had three people abuse me for my choice ("dirty slag who discards her baby so she can sleep around and party non stop") everyone else has been emotionally supportive (listening to me when I need to talk about my daughter) and understanding that the pain never goes away (drying my tears for the thousandth time) it just hides itself better at times and refuses to hide itself at other times.

Jesus christ, I cannot believe I just read that - and that it actually happened!!! All I can say is that anyone who said that to you or thought that of you was a complete moron and by the sounds of it a sociopath as well!! I am so glad that this attitude has been in a minority but sorry you had to suffer it at all.

Fizzlesque wrote: »

However, unfortunately, there is only one person in the world who has the power to make me feel at peace with my decision, and all I can do is wait in limbo for her to be ready to begin that process. I both dread that day and desperately want it to hurry up and arrive - it's an emotional 'push-me-pull-you' that colours every day of my life.

This is very powerful and there must be women for whom it is only dread also. Its very difficult. I hope she makes contact.

clairefontaine

username123 wrote: »

Jesus christ, I cannot believe I just read that - and that it actually happened!!! All I can say is that anyone who said that to you or thought that of you was a complete moron and by the sounds of it a sociopath as well!! I am so glad that this attitude has been in a minority but sorry you had to suffer it at all.



This is very powerful and there must be women for whom it is only dread also. Its very difficult. I hope she makes contact.

Yep. And if she had kept the child she would have been called a dirty slag who kept her child for a meal ticket, and like other single mothers can drink party and sleep around on benefits or some other rotten motivation.

clairefontaine

Fizzalesque,

Your post makes me really sad. It makes me sad because I read it that the adoption really wasn't a choice for you, but an extension of your father's abuse to make you give up your child and the kind of abuse that will hurt you over and over again without him having to say a word or lift a finger. It's unfathomably cruel.

krankykitty

Fizzalesque, I just wanted to say I feel sad after reading your post, what you went through must have been (and be) so incredibly hard. I wish everyone who rolls out the "but what about Adoption" as an argument could read your story to see what it's not a simple solution but something that will affect numerous people so much throughout their lives. Thank you for sharing it with us. I hope you get your peace (hugs)

dark crystal

krankykitty wrote: »

Fizzalesque, I just wanted to say I feel sad after reading your post, what you went through must have been (and be) so incredibly hard. I wish everyone who rolls out the "but what about Adoption" as an argument could read your story to see what it's not a simple solution but something that will affect numerous people so much throughout their lives. Thank you for sharing it with us. I hope you get your peace (hugs)

I don't believe anyone on this thread implied it was a simple decision at all.


I absolutely applaud Fizzalesque for being so open and honest about her experience. We talk about others judging our decisions, but sometimes there can be no harsher judge than ourselves.

I really hope the future holds much happiness for you and you find the peace you need to heal. You deserve it