Disillusioned With the Bar and Club Scene and Considering Using Escorts: Opinions?

LegacyUser

I say to the OP that you're not mad. You want to go and sow your wild oats. Meet nice women. Bask in her awesomeness. But then move on. Readers; it's just that simple. I bet a lot of people reading these words have done it or done something like it. Can you really judge someone for whom this inexplicably never happens? I don't begrudge the OP these feelings. To a lot of us, these things are the stuff that makes life worth living. The kind of thing that we may well reminisce about as we wait to meet our maker. To me, it's a beautiful, respectful, intimate thing that two people in space and time can share that remind us we are not just production units who spend our days defending our thoughts and feelings. I have the same ache in my heart. No one chooses me either. They choose others. My betters? I don't think so. Just others.

It's easy to judge and say 'you should be more like me and less like you- look how successful and happy I am and not miserable like you'. It's easy to pick holes in lots of what motivates people.It's easy to tell the OP that something is wrong with his attitude or his body language and you'd want to be blind not to see it. It's easy to tell him he's a bad person or has made bad choices but I think the OP sounds like a decent, sentient, albeit frustrated modern man. Doesn't fit the profile of the pubber/ clubber. Can't relax or just go out have a hoot/ a blast/ the crack/ whatever way you wish to describe mindlessly binge drinking and shaking their ass and probably talking a lot of schyte in expensive dancing shoes which, [drum-roll] doesn't fit everyone. It simply isn't a one-size-fits-all personality that we are all waiting to unleash no more than some of us will never be a quiet country Vicar... so give the OP a break, I say.

You look around. The world is full of beautiful wonderful young women. Someone is sleeping with them. Loving them. Touching them. It frustrates you that in a world full of these women, you appear to be the one left standing by. As you are, you're not 'good enough' so you work. That doesn't work so you work harder. You work and work but nothing ever brings you success. You are a functioning member of society. You contribute. You're decent and respectful. Entitlement isn't a good word but when you feel like you are the only one at a well without water, it's hard to feel confused as to why you are the only one without. Is it a punishment or a test? Whatever must be wrong with me? People will say 'Oh you have to convince yourself you don't need water so you can have water like the rest of us- we don't have to do this but you do- no one knows why'.

Escorts? You know it will never work, OP. For some, yes, but not for you. The girls in the clubs that you think might satisfy you, won't. They won't sleep with you because they are not looking for you. What do I suggest? Stop doing what you're doing. You don't belong in that world. You need new experiences. You need new adventures. I bet you already have some ideas. Well now's the time to be brave and go be YOURSELF where you make sense. Consider this a boot up the backside.

Pug160

Some escorts only see one client per day or just a handful during the entire week, and maybe even have another job. They're not all victims by any means. Some of them probably do it because the money is simply too good to resist and it funds their lavish lifestyles. I would agree that these ''high class'' ones are in the minority, though. Looking at what some of the expensive ones charge, I don't think it would be worth it. I'd rather spend that money on a weekend break or something. I'm thinking that some of these girls are like footballers' wives minus the footballer. It's quite possible that some of them are actually turned on by money more than any man - regardless of how handsome he is - but I'll not get off topic here.

I do approach girls in bars, yeah. And sometimes they're actually quite interested. My main problem is that I just look lost and depressed. I used to think I looked stoic/expressionless, but I asked some friends out of curiousity and they told me I don't look happy, so I wasn't initially aware I was coming across that way. I pretty much know for a fact that I'd do better in a social circle type environment where there were plenty of girls, as it can take a while for me to express myself. But the problem with that is that it's better designed for relationships and it's difficult to break into those circles when your current bunch of friends are not keen. I don't feel guilty about wanting more sex - not one bit. I am not asexual and there are plenty of people of both sexes who just want no strings fun from time to time.

I appreciate the fact that the majority of girls on a night out are just letting their hair down and want some fun, and will not want to look at miserable looking guys, whether they fancy them or not. By the way, working out does not decrease frustration, it actually increases testosterone - well lifting weights does anyway. That's another frustrating fact.

mood

Again you are ignoring/dismissing everything posters are saying.

I give up!

Pug160

mood wrote: »

Again you are ignoring/dismissing everything posters are saying.

I give up!

How so? I have responded to some of their questions and taken on board what some people have said. I even gave a thumbs up to the poster who gave the pretty long reply. Maybe I'm being judged?

endacl

mood wrote: »

Again you are ignoring/dismissing everything posters are saying.

I give up!

^^
This. +1

Me too for the second and final time. You really don't seem to be willing to try to see what's so plain to everybody else OP. All who mean well, and most with more life experience. Ah well, we are nothing if not the sum of our mistakes.

Maybe you should go ask for your 'justification from strangers' over in After Hours. They're a little more 'open minded' over there.

mood

Pug160 wrote: »

How so? I have responded to some of their questions and taken on board what some people have said. I even gave a thumbs up to the poster who gave the pretty long reply. Maybe I'm being judged?

You are ignoring/dismissing what numerous people here are saying - your main problem is you attitude towards and lack of respect for women. It is extremely obvious. I can only imagine it's more obvious in person. Looking grumpy obviously won't help but it is not your main problem.

Roisy7

The main questions which I can see that you have skirted around?

Do you see women as lesser? Yes or no, no pseudo science. Gender is not a biological given, a quick examination of history and global culture will tell you that.

Do you see prostitutes as lesser again?

Do you accept that if you have sex with a prostitute that there is a very high chance that she won't enjoy it or be present in any meaningful way, despite the fact that you said you would not like to have sex with a woman who didn't enjoy it?

Do you even give a crap that the woman maybe trafficked or a victim of coercion?

Do you honestly think that you can have meaningful interaction with women?

How DO you deal with women on nights out? Do you insult them? Are you so drunk you can't remember?

It is time for self examination. It is all too rare that the entire rest of the world, or 2 million Irish women, are all wrong and you're right.

Forever Hopeful

Pug160 wrote: »

Some escorts only see one client per day or just a handful during the entire week, and maybe even have another job. They're not all victims by any means. Some of them probably do it because the money is simply too good to resist and it funds their lavish lifestyles. I would agree that these ''high class'' ones are in the minority, though. Looking at what some of the expensive ones charge, I don't think it would be worth it. I'd rather spend that money on a weekend break or something. I'm thinking that some of these girls are like footballers' wives minus the footballer. It's quite possible that some of them are actually turned on by money more than any man - regardless of how handsome he is - but I'll not get off topic here.

I do approach girls in bars, yeah. And sometimes they're actually quite interested. My main problem is that I just look lost and depressed. I used to think I looked stoic/expressionless, but I asked some friends out of curiousity and they told me I don't look happy, so I wasn't initially aware I was coming across that way. I pretty much know for a fact that I'd do better in a social circle type environment where there were plenty of girls, as it can take a while for me to express myself. But the problem with that is that it's better designed for relationships and it's difficult to break into those circles when your current bunch of friends are not keen. I don't feel guilty about wanting more sex - not one bit. I am not asexual and there are plenty of people of both sexes who just want no strings fun from time to time.

I appreciate the fact that the majority of girls on a night out are just letting their hair down and want some fun, and will not want to look at miserable looking guys, whether they fancy them or not. By the way, working out does not decrease frustration, it actually increases testosterone - well lifting weights does anyway. That's another frustrating fact.

The comments bolded above just sends more messages to the readers that you have zero respect for women. You seem to perceive them as shallow, stupid and money hungry.
You keep mentioning that you don't look happy when you are out and wanting to be surrounded by girls because it takes you a while to express yourself. Your problem is you are too intense. Waaaaaaay to intense. You've all these bizarro justifications, perceptions, explanations & theories that deflect attention away from the real problem.
Some women must have done a job on you. You are frustrating the folks that have taken the time to read and reply with some pretty excellent advice but as I said before, you can analyse, scrutinize and think whatever you want but as Einstein (I think ) said the definition of madness is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.
Do you have any guy friends that you can talk about this stuff with?

Pug160

Roisy7 wrote: »

The main questions which I can see that you have skirted around?

Do you see women as lesser? Yes or no, no pseudo science. Gender is not a biological given, a quick examination of history and global culture will tell you that.

Do you see prostitutes as lesser again?

Do you accept that if you have sex with a prostitute that there is a very high chance that she won't enjoy it or be present in any meaningful way, despite the fact that you said you would not like to have sex with a woman who didn't enjoy it?

Do you even give a crap that the woman maybe trafficked or a victim of coercion?

Do you honestly think that you can have meaningful interaction with women?

How DO you deal with women on nights out? Do you insult them? Are you so drunk you can't remember?

It is time for self examination. It is all too rare that the entire rest of the world, or 2 million Irish women, are all wrong and you're right.

I don't see women as ''lesser'', no. My only annoyance is that women as a whole are still not truly liberated. But that's probably for another thread.

No, I don't see Sex Workers as lesser. The ones who are not being exploited can make up their own minds about what they want to do with their own bodies. I'm not a Fascist.

I think there's three or four possibilities:
She will find it pleasant.
She will find it neither pleasant or unpleasant
She will find it unpleasant or be repulsed

If I were to go to an escort there's certainly a chance she wouldn't find it pleasant - yes. But as a young man who keeps in shape and is immaculately clean, I'd find it hard to believe she would find it unpleasant or be repulsed. So the worst case scenario would be the middle one. And no, I'm not talking about someone forced to do it.

I think it's very sad that women are trafficked, just as I think a lot of things are very sad. But it's unfair to lump everyone into the same category.

Of course I can have a meaningful interaction with a woman. Some of my best nights have been spent talking to women - usually older women.

I go up and talk to the women I fancy. I usually do it while tipsy and I generally never have bad reactions. On some occasions I have a bit too much to drink and talk gibberish like most drunken people, but I'm rarely nasty unless provoked.

No one is right or wrong, we all have opinions. Lots of men may well empathise with me. I've said I'd consider an escort so a lot of women and some men will judge me based on that. I could articulate my feelings to suit a wider audience but of what benefit would that be?

Pug160

Forever Hopeful wrote: »

The comments bolded above just sends more messages to the readers that you have zero respect for women. You seem to perceive them as shallow, stupid and money hungry.
You keep mentioning that you don't look happy when you are out and wanting to be surrounded by girls because it takes you a while to express yourself. Your problem is you are too intense. Waaaaaaay to intense. You've all these bizarro justifications, perceptions, explanations & theories that deflect attention away from the real problem.
Some women must have done a job on you. You are frustrating the folks that have taken the time to read and reply with some pretty excellent advice but as I said before, you can analyse, scrutinize and think whatever you want but as Einstein (I think ) said the definition of madness is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.
Do you have any guy friends that you can talk about this stuff with?

Those comments were about high class escorts - not all women. And I don't have zero respect for them - I think they're maybe shallow and money hungry, but not stupid. The high class escorts, that is.

Roisy7

Pug160 wrote: »

I don't see women as ''lesser'', no. My only annoyance is that women as a whole are still not truly liberated. But that's probably for another thread.

No, I don't see Sex Workers as lesser. The ones who are not being exploited can make up their own minds about what they want to do with their own bodies. I'm not a Fascist.

I think there's three or four possibilities:
She will find it pleasant.
She will find it neither pleasant or unpleasant
She will find it unpleasant or be repulsed

If I were to go to an escort there's certainly a chance she wouldn't find it pleasant - yes. But as a young man who keeps in shape and is immaculately clean, I'd find it hard to believe she would find it unpleasant or be repulsed. So the worst case scenario would be the middle one. And no, I'm not talking about someone forced to do it.

I think it's very sad that women are trafficked, just as I think a lot of things are very sad. But it's unfair to lump everyone into the same category.

Of course I can have a meaningful interaction with a woman. Some of my best nights have been spent talking to women - usually older women.

I go up and talk to the women I fancy. I usually do it while tipsy and I generally never have bad reactions. On some occasions I have a bit too much to drink and talk gibberish like most drunken people, but I'm rarely nasty unless provoked.

No one is right or wrong, we all have opinions. Lots of men may well empathise with me. I've said I'd consider an escort so a lot of women and some men will judge me based on that. I could articulate my feelings to suit a wider audience but of what benefit would that be?

Ok Pug fair dues, it can't be easy to come on here and read this thread.

I'm willing to take your word that you don't have a problem with women.

If girls don't react badly to you, then why are you so disillusioned by the bar scene? It's so easy to pick up someone for a night of sex in a club, because its sex you want with the escort, right, not conversation?

But I do urge you to think again about the escorts. In my earlier post I said best case scenario, she'd rather be off having a cup of tea. Ok you're a young guy, you're not some vile old man sweating away on top of her, but she won't be curling her toes in delight. You'll mean nothing to her.

You say that trafficking makes you sad, but it's not some far off war that you can do nothing about. If there was no demand for prostitutes, there'd be no trafficking. Fact.

Prostitution in Ireland is completely illegal and unregulated, and you've no way of telling whether the escort you're using is trafficked or even over-age.

There are proposals to bring in laws to prosecute clients rather than prostitutes as is the case in Sweden, and several men in Limerick were prosecuted last year when they picked up undercover gardai posing as prostitutes.

If you want sex, seriously pick up a girl for a ons in a bar. It's the easier option. Go online to a meet up website. Don't let money change hands.

If you really want to go the escort route research it thoroughly, look up ruhama, and don't be the least bit surprised if the encounter disappoints.

The Th!ng

Roisy7 wrote: »

If there was no demand for prostitutes, there'd be no trafficking. Fact.

This is not correct, there are more people trafficked globally for manual labour than into the sex industry. Trafficking and prostitution are not the same thing, they sometimes overlap, but they are separate issues.

Roisy7 wrote: »

Prostitution in Ireland is completely illegal and unregulated, and you've no way of telling whether the escort you're using is trafficked or even over-age.

Again, this is incorrect, it is neither illegal to buy or sell sex in Ireland.

Roisy7 wrote: »

If you want sex, seriously pick up a girl for a ons in a bar. It's the easier option. Go online to a meet up website. Don't let money change hands.

According to Dr. Derek Freedman (http://stdclinics.ie/leinster/practice/derek-freedman) the OP runs a much greater risk of contracting a sexually transmitted disease from a ONS than he does from a prostitute.

skyfall2012

I look a bit lost probably. Some people can actually fake confidence and enjoyment but I find it hard to

This is where your problems lies. You won't solve this in the arms of an escort. She is using you for your money and you are using her for sex, not a great confidence builder.

I can't imagine it is that hard to find someone to have a one night stand with, but you really don't want the hassle of having to converse with a girl and look like you are enjoying yourself to get some sex.

You would probably have to engage in some sort of conversation with an escort too, as she most likely will have an ego and will want to see you enjoying yourself as that's her job, which is what you are trying so hard to avoid, so there will be pressure there too, to look like you are having fun.

I would recommend a blow up doll, really because that is what all this boils down to (one that you find attractive). Or join the swingers community, but you may have to talk and look like you are having fun there too. I don't think women are the problem here, I think it is you.

I think you need to talk to a professional and not that kind of professional, you sound unhappy and confused.

Overheal

Pug160 wrote: »

My main problem is that I just look lost and depressed. I used to think I looked stoic/expressionless, but I asked some friends out of curiousity and they told me I don't look happy, so I wasn't initially aware I was coming across that way.

Because, it would appear that's what you are: frustrated, lonely, and depressed.

No one is right or wrong, we all have opinions. Lots of men may well empathise with me.

Again, you're just deflecting. You don't want to take responsibility for the decision you're inevitably going to make for yourself, so you are looking for the validation of others - "Oh, but lots of men may well agree with me sure"

It's clear that you aren't looking on here for advice, you're looking here to see if anyone will Yes-man a decision you've already made. I don't see the point of this thread anymore.

That being the case, you are going to be That Guy who can't be told that something is a mistake, he has to do it for himself first, and figure it out for himself first. When you're done, and you go home, and you're trying to shower off that intangible taint off yourself afterwards, imagine me, telling you "I told you so".

Bye.

Roisy7

The Th!ng wrote: »

This is not correct, there are more people trafficked globally for manual labour than into the sex industry. Trafficking and prostitution are not the same thing, they sometimes overlap, but they are separate issues.



Again, this is incorrect, it is neither illegal to buy or sell sex in Ireland.



According to Dr. Derek Freedman (http://stdclinics.ie/leinster/practice/derek-freedman) the OP runs a much greater risk of contracting a sexually transmitted disease from a ONS than he does from a prostitute.

While prostitution is not illegal in Ireland, soliciting, pimping etc is. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_the_Republic_of_Ireland

It's semantics, and the OP can be done if he solicits an undercover guard. It's happened.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/courts/men-caught-in-prostitution-sting-by-undercover-gardai-enter-guilty-pleas-2956079.html

One of those men was refused legal aid because the judge told him if he could afford an escort, he could afford a solicitor.

The government are thinking about changing the law: http://www.thejournal.ie/prostitution-legislation-ireland-711504-Dec2012/

I think it's fairly obvious that I'm talking about sex trafficking, and if there was no demand for prostitutes there'd be no sex trafficking. Other forms of trafficking are a separate issue.

So? Does that mean every man should go to an escort in case he catches a STD from a woman who wants consensual sex with him???? Protection should be used in all forms of casual sex.

I've made my point repeatedly in this thread OP, prostitution is not a victimless crime and it is not the answer to your confidence issues. Having sex with a woman who does not want to be there will do nothing for your self esteem.

RossFixxxed

Look whatever your views about prostitutes etc is, I think most of us are of an opinion that it will not help the OPs confidence and that the issue is more deep rooted.

OP, I'll say this bit again: you need to work on yourself. You need to find some fun, interest and confidence in life and in yourself. Everyone likes being around positive people and having a fun time. You come across in your posts (Keep in mind I don't know you) as WAY too intense. You also seem very down and lacking in self worth.

Find a hobby you really have an interest in, and persue that. Find things you LOVE doing with people and don't worry about finding a woman. Just find people to be around and enjoy time with. The rest WILL folllow. And it often happens when you don't expect it, or you've dropped the 'seeking a shag' vibe. There's NOTHING wrong about ONS or going on the pull but currently it isn't working for you. If you are going to clubs, drink a bit less and have a game with your friends. Try this: have a 'who can do the most silly, embarrassing dance competition'. Sounds dreadful right? Well it is a bit, until you stop taking it all so seriously and actually start laughing at how ridiculous you look. A friend did this and literally had 3 girls make a bee line over to him... I reckon it was because he had a huge smile, didn't care how he looked and was absolutely giving it socks! I KNOW how absolutely stupid these things sound, but it's about letting down your guard and just having a blast in the moment!

Neyite

OP, being unsuccessful with women in clubs, every woman is different, the commmon denominator is you.

If you look moody and miserable and approached me, I'd wonder why you were out on a night out which is supposedly to have fun, when you are so miserable. If you are not having fun, it shows. And if you look bored a woman will probably wonder why you are even bothering trying to chat her up. She will probably correctly surmise that you are just doing it to get the ride, and have zero interest in her as a person. And she would walk away.

Even for one night stands, the whole point is to have a bit of adult fun. Nobody is going to leave the club with the most miserable guy in there and think "I'm bound to have a great time with this fella" Would you chat up the girl who looks like she is about to cry into her vodka and coke? Of course not.

With regard to escorts. You seem to have made your mind up. So book your escort. I do find it amusing that you seem to have this view a beautiful woman in a classy outfit will meet you in a bar and have a few drinks while regaling you with her sparkling wit and charm, before sauntering up to a room to happily fulfill the physical side of the transaction. I think you'll find your experience will be far removed from a scene from Pretty Woman.

I can tell you that I would lose respect for any man I was going out with if I heard he used an escort. I have actually broken up with partners in the past when I found out. I think its an exploitative industry and I have no respect for the clients that use these services.

Penny Dreadful

Pug160 wrote: »

I used to think I looked stoic/expressionless,

.

It sounds as though you've tried to make a look for yourself. Someone being stoic is great if they're being stoic when getting their dislocated shoulder put back in place, its not a great look if you are being stoic about being out in a social setting.
Expressionless....again why on earth would anyone be interested (whether it was to form a relationship or not) in someone who was expressionless?

OP as many others have pointed out, it seems to be the case that the problem is with you / within you not the women of this world that you seem to have an extremely low opinion of.
Sort this out and things may change.

Taltos

Having issued a warning yesterday that any further off topic discussion would result in this thread being closed and bans being issues we are now left with no option but to close this thread.

The Th!ng & Roisy7 - this forum is more strictly moderated than other forums here due to the fact that in many cases OP's see this as their last place to seek help with oftentimes sensitive issues for them. For this reason, any breach of our charter is a serious affair and doubly so when in breaching this charter you ignore a moderator warning.

While it is every posters responsibility here to read all posts before replying, since you are both new posters to PI I will not issue the aforementioned ban this time however please ensure that before you contribute in this forum again you have read and understand our charter and site faq.

Regards
Taltos