Pointless Bus Lanes

keith16

Anyone know of any bus lanes that are just there for the sake of it?

Don't get me wrong, there are some great bus corridors in Dublin that are essential and work really well.

But there are some like the one on Mount Merrion Avenue that are just ridiculous to be honest. There is one bus (the 17) that goes roughly every half an hour, usually with about four people sitting on it.

Not justified IMO, that road can be ridiculously busy heading toward the N11 and to have one lane in that direction effectively closed is a bit of a waste.

Or maybe I'm just being stupid? As I have said, there are some great QBCs in Dublin but anyone have examples where it's just a bit overkill?

Cookie_Monster

The one into Dunshaughlin

The Royal Scam

The long mile road all the way down to the N7 at the Red Cow. I honestly have never seen a bus on it, well a Dublin Bus anyway. It's alway clear all the way down while traffic is always backed up on it and only about 10 cars get through the junction with the Kylmore Rd. It's a pox

coylemj

keith16 wrote: »

But there are some like the one on Mount Merrion Avenue that are just ridiculous to be honest. There is one bus (the 17) that goes roughly every half an hour, usually with about four people sitting on it.

The locals campaigned relentlessly against that bus lane using the exact data you quote above but the anti-car people in Dun Laoghaire Co. Council went ahead with it anyway.

In fairness, there is plenty of room at the top of MMA between the end of the bus lane and the actual junction for the cars to break into two lanes, what screws things up is when some dozy git sitting in the single lane alongside the bus lane isn't quick enough off the mark when the lights change.

LoonyLovegood

The one on the Ballyboggan road. There's not even a bus route that would use it!

Cookie_Monster

also the ones on Ballinteer road and Wyckham way, have been there for years and still have the little orange signs saying not in use.

dfx-

The Royal Scam wrote: »

The long mile road all the way down to the N7 at the Red Cow. I honestly have never seen a bus on it, well a Dublin Bus anyway. It's alway clear all the way down while traffic is always backed up on it and only about 10 cars get through the junction with the Kylmore Rd. It's a pox

56A and 18 use the Long Mile Rd bus lane to the old EP Mooney site. 151 continues on using it until the Esso garage.

The 13, 68, 69, 69N uses the bus lane from the Esso garage to the Red Cow. And get stuck using the inbound bus lane at the Kylemore Rd junction because of traffic. Great bus lane it is as a bus user..

The bus lane that the 151 goes onto towards Bawnogue was wasted until the 151 came into action, years later..

F1ngers

Any of the weekend ones, especially the "sunday" ones.
Monday to friday, no problem.

BostonB

24hr ones for the 24hr buses we dont have.

coylemj

The bus lane on the N11 south of Foxrock church is 24 hours yet the only regular DB service on that road is the 145 Kilmacanogue service whereas on the busiest (measured by volume of bus journeys) stretch of the N11 between Stillorgan Cross and Foxrock Church (served by the 75, 145 and 46A), the bus lane is only effective from 7 to 7 Mon-Sat.

The Greystones Aircoach uses that road as well but it's down to hourly nowadays so hardly justifies a 24 hour bus lane.

seanmacc

The one on the N32 from Clare Hall/Northern Cross to the M1/M50. Since the AerDart went kaput there hasn't been a bus using it. To be fair the bus lane signs are taken down and the road markings haven't been touched up (although not erased either) but the amount of people who treat it as a bus lane is ridiculous.

corktina

Bus Lanes are also for taxis...

seamus

There's a 24 hour bus lane along the entire length of the outer ring road in Dublin.

Afaik, there are still no busses using that road with the exception of the last 2km in Lucan.

GerardKeating

BostonB wrote: »

24hr ones for the 24hr buses we dont have.

Is traffic that bad at 3am that it makes a difference?

Also, Bus Lanes are also for Taxi's that are 24hr.

The Royal Scam

dfx- wrote: »

56A and 18 use the Long Mile Rd bus lane to the old EP Mooney site. 151 continues on using it until the Esso garage.

The 13, 68, 69, 69N uses the bus lane from the Esso garage to the Red Cow. And get stuck using the inbound bus lane at the Kylemore Rd junction because of traffic. Great bus lane it is as a bus user..

The bus lane that the 151 goes onto towards Bawnogue was wasted until the 151 came into action, years later..

I accept the 18 and 56 use it but I am only refering from the section from the Long Miler pub up to the esso. All other sections you are talking about I agree with. I have seen the 18 on it but they generally use the right hand lane early to make the right turn onto kylmore rd

Chris_5339762

This one - http://goo.gl/maps/5VTqA

Its just a dangerous, confusing mess because of how short it is and the amount of weaving traffic thrown in for good measure.

tubbs26

The flyover on the N4 at Woodies in Lucan has a bus lane heading in the direction of the Outer Ring Road. (The other direction is a different story, that side of the road is heavily used by buses)

I can't think of any bus route that goes that way. I think there may be a route from Blanch to Lucan but as far as I know its a very light service.

If the lane was opened to traffic I don't think it would make too much difference but it just seems strange having one there for no reason.

As one poster said though a lot of the outer ring road has unused bus lanes. Maybe its just future proofing if the areas population picks up

Wishbone Ash

BostonB wrote: »

24hr ones for the 24hr buses we dont have.

Taxis, cyclists, private buses, Bus Eireann etc.

Bus lanes are not just for Dublin Bus.

monument

It's worth stressing that all bus lanes are also for cyclists.

keith16

monument wrote: »

It's worth stressing that all bus lanes are also for cyclists.

That's true monument, but there are also a lot of useless cycle paths around aswell. The ones up and around Carrickmines spring to mind.

It just feels like they have some sort of "quota" to fill in terms of kilometers of cycle / bus lanes and strategic thinking goes out the window at the expense of short term targets.

There is also a bus lane coming from Churchtown direction down toward Dundrum (before the Luas bridge). Again, I never ever see any buses using it and traffic can be quite bad there, particularly with cars waiting to turn into the right much further down that road up to the shopping centre which leads to the main road going straight getting blocked.

KD345

keith16 wrote: »

But there are some like the one on Mount Merrion Avenue that are just ridiculous to be honest. There is one bus (the 17) that goes roughly every half an hour, usually with about four people sitting on it.

The 17 runs every 20 minutes at peak times. It only carries a few people at that point because the terminus is at the end of the road in Blackrock. However, if buses were to sit in a line of traffic on Mount Merrion Avenue it would have a knock on effect in its frequency further along the route.

The Royal Scam wrote: »

I accept the 18 and 56 use it but I am only refering from the section from the Long Miler pub up to the esso. All other sections you are talking about I agree with. I have seen the 18 on it but they generally use the right hand lane early to make the right turn onto kylmore rd

The 151 uses this stretch and runs every 15 minutes.

keith16 wrote: »

There is also a bus lane coming from Churchtown direction down toward Dundrum (before the Luas bridge). Again, I never ever see any buses using it and traffic can be quite bad there, particularly with cars waiting to turn into the right much further down that road up to the shopping centre which leads to the main road going straight getting blocked.

This is used by the 17, 61 and 161. If buses were forced into the line of traffic it would disrupt their timetable and cause delays.

dfx-

The Royal Scam wrote: »

I accept the 18 and 56 use it but I am only refering from the section from the Long Miler pub up to the esso. All other sections you are talking about I agree with. I have seen the 18 on it but they generally use the right hand lane early to make the right turn onto kylmore rd

The 151 uses that section. I can't believe you haven't seen a 151 use it in either direction. It's the most frequent of the three routes. Brand new buses, "Foxborough" on the front?

Tarabuses

monument wrote: »

It's worth stressing that all bus lanes are also for cyclists.

Even when there is a seperate cycle lane?

monument

Tarabuses wrote: »

Even when there is a seperate cycle lane?

Yes.

Mandtory use of cycle lanes is now revoked, and, to start with, it never applied to half of the cycle lanes or tracks inside bus lanes (wrong signs etc).

patrickbrophy18

The stretch of Upper Glenageary Road adjacent to the old Dun Laoghaire Golf Course comes to mind. Aside from the infrequent 8 and almost non-existent 7D, no other service uses it. The Monkstown Ring Road is a close second and is only serviced by the 7B. Unless Dublin Bus are (very doubtfully) planning services with frequencies upwards of 30 minutes or better, there isn't much point in having this infrastructure in place.

KD345

patrickbrophy18 wrote: »

The stretch of Upper Glenageary Road adjacent to the old Dun Laoghaire Golf Course comes to mind. Aside from the infrequent 8 and almost non-existent 7D, no other service uses it. The Monkstown Ring Road is a close second and is only serviced by the 7B. Unless Dublin Bus are (very doubtfully) planning services with frequencies upwards of 30 minutes or better, there isn't much point in having this infrastructure in place.

Admittedly, there are only three buses using this bit of road between 7 and 9am, but if that bus lane wasn't there it would greatly impact those services. I don't believe the frequency of a bus route should decide how much priority that bus should get. Those three buses have the potential to carry almost 300 people. It's similar with the 7B - those 5 buses in the morning, which carry good numbers, feed into the N11 QBC. It would be pointless for passengers to have to sit in traffic in order to get onto the QBC.

The idea that every bus lane will have a constant flow of buses is unrealistic. Remember, it used to be a big complaint of Dublin commuters that the bus was forever stuck in traffic. Thankfully, things have changed and passengers now feel the benefit of bus lanes. Whether you're using the high frequency 46A or the low frequency 8, you will be using bus lanes for most of the route. That makes using the bus attractive.

In fact, in the case of the posts on this thread, I'd like to think keith16 didn't see any buses on Lower Churchtown Road or Mount Merrion Avenue because the bus passes through these places quick enough without sitting in traffic to be spotted.

keith16

KD345 wrote: »

Admittedly, there are only three buses using this bit of road between 7 and 9am, but if that bus lane wasn't there it would greatly impact those services. I don't believe the frequency of a bus route should decide how much priority that bus should get. Those three buses have the potential to carry almost 300 people. It's similar with the 7B - those 5 buses in the morning, which carry good numbers, feed into the N11 QBC. It would be pointless for passengers to have to sit in traffic in order to get onto the QBC.

The idea that every bus lane will have a constant flow of buses is unrealistic. Remember, it used to be a big complaint of Dublin commuters that the bus was forever stuck in traffic. Thankfully, things have changed and passengers now feel the benefit of bus lanes. Whether you're using the high frequency 46A or the low frequency 8, you will be using bus lanes for most of the route. That makes using the bus attractive.

In fact, in the case of the posts on this thread, I'd like to think keith16 didn't see any buses on Lower Churchtown Road or Mount Merrion Avenue because the bus passes through these places quick enough without sitting in traffic to be spotted.

I agree bus lanes are a good thing in general, but maybe there is some middle ground for the roads I mentioned? Less restrictive hours maybe? I don't know...

A couple of other considerations, I have used the 17 on a number of occasions. It still takes way too long to get from Blackrock to UCD, it takes me the same time to cycle. Dwell times need to be reduced, otherwise, isn't the benefit of having a bus lane slightly diminished?

Cookie_Monster

Aren't all new bus lanes made 24/7 for future proofing reasons, hence why the outer N11 stretch is 24/7 and the inner one not, it was built too early?!

Polar101

If we removed all the 'pointless' bus lanes, there'd be another thread complaining why the bus was late (because it got stuck in traffic). If public transport improves, it helps motorists as well because there will be less cars on the roads.

keith16

Polar101 wrote: »

If we removed all the 'pointless' bus lanes, there'd be another thread complaining why the bus was late (because it got stuck in traffic). If public transport improves, it helps motorists as well because there will be less cars on the roads.

But that's the thing, I would love to see data on "bus lane utilisation"

So you could take total seats available during the 7am to 8pm window, that's 13 hours. Let's say to keep things simple that a bus goes every half an hour and that the capacity per bus is 200 for the sake of argument.

That's two buses (400 PAX) per hour (13 hours) = 5,200 available capacity and then get the actual PAX to get a "load factor" per bus lane.

My point is that there is little in the way of these stats to prove the success or otherwise of bus lanes. Additionally, Dublin bus seem to be losing money hand over fist despite having all the necessary infrastructure in place.

Why is that? Do they look at passenger data in any meaningful way to tweak routes / schedules in order to minimise loss, or do they just take a stab in the dark with nothing more scientific than, "ah shure we'll throw a bus lane there"?

stop

keith16 wrote: »

A couple of other considerations, I have used the 17 on a number of occasions. It still takes way too long to get from Blackrock to UCD, it takes me the same time to cycle. Dwell times need to be reduced, otherwise, isn't the benefit of having a bus lane slightly diminished?

17 would benefit from being able to access ucd bus stops via Foster Ave all day. Going over mount anville to Dundrum instead of via Clonskeagh might also cut a bit of time off it.

_Kaiser_

BostonB wrote: »

24hr ones for the 24hr buses we dont have.

We have a winner!

/thread

keith16

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

We have a winner!

/thread

A challenger appeared!

Check this out, the lane is too small for the bus and they don't even use it :rolleyes:

https://maps.google.com/?ll=53.354677,-6.370509&spn=0.013909,0.042272&t=m&z=15&layer=c&cbll=53.354677,-6.370509&panoid=09WR5qs1w1C4eskK4XhIyA&cbp=12,85.8,,0,2.74

triple-M

theres some pretty pointlessly short bus lanes around castleknock village coming from the blanchardstown direction which dont seem to serve much purpose not even a bus stop!unfortunately they are not visible on google maps as they are fairly new

patrickbrophy18

KD345 wrote: »

Admittedly, there are only three buses using this bit of road between 7 and 9am, but if that bus lane wasn't there it would greatly impact those services. I don't believe the frequency of a bus route should decide how much priority that bus should get. Those three buses have the potential to carry almost 300 people. It's similar with the 7B - those 5 buses in the morning, which carry good numbers, feed into the N11 QBC. It would be pointless for passengers to have to sit in traffic in order to get onto the QBC.

That is true. I too, think that bus routes (regardless of the frequency) need to be given priority. I also agree with you that the 7B is a full time route in the making given that it does indeed carry decent loadings.:)

KD345 wrote: »

The idea that every bus lane will have a constant flow of buses is unrealistic. Remember, it used to be a big complaint of Dublin commuters that the bus was forever stuck in traffic. Thankfully, things have changed and passengers now feel the benefit of bus lanes. Whether you're using the high frequency 46A or the low frequency 8, you will be using bus lanes for most of the route. That makes using the bus attractive.

It's probably part of a long term plan whereby a gradual rise in loadings will be met with a proportional increase in frequency. Incidentally, there has been a rather slow but steady increase in people using the 8.:D

Then again, the construction of many of these bus lanes had been completed before/after the economy went titsup.com;) hence the lack of use. Let's just hope that when (or if) the economy recovers that these bus lanes will play a more prominent role in the public transportation network.

L1011

The sections of the N4 where a "bus lane" was made from a hard shoulder are particularly pointless, the bus has to inch along hoping that people are a bit off-centre in the driving lane to get by.

LXFlyer

keith16 wrote: »

A challenger appeared!

Check this out, the lane is too small for the bus and they don't even use it :rolleyes:

https://maps.google.com/?ll=53.354677,-6.370509&spn=0.013909,0.042272&t=m&z=15&layer=c&cbll=53.354677,-6.370509&panoid=09WR5qs1w1C4eskK4XhIyA&cbp=12,85.8,,0,2.74

I must be dreaming every day then when my bus uses that bus lane (in heavy traffic).

In this case you are talking utter drivel.

keith16

lxflyer wrote: »

I must be dreaming every day then when my bus uses that bus lane (in heavy traffic).

In this case you are talking utter drivel.

Fair enough then. It does look ridiculously small, there is no way cyclists and buses can use that lane without impacting the traffic.

LXFlyer

keith16 wrote: »

Fair enough then. It does look ridiculously small, there is no way cyclists and buses can use that lane without impacting the traffic.

But the point is that buses DO use it. Lots and lots of them every day.

Most cyclists are coming through Palmerston on the old road as that is the route that the cycle lane over the M50 takes them.

jack presley

BostonB wrote: »

24hr ones for the 24hr buses we dont have.

I read/heard somewhere that a lot of the 24hr bus lanes would be hard shoulders otherwise so it's not like the they've eliminated a lane for normal traffic. Now I'm sure it isn't the case 100% of the time and I bet within a few minutes of me hitting submit there'll be loads of examples proving this wrong but I think it was yer man from Dublin Bus that used to be on the George Hook show on Newstalk that said it.

LeinsterDub

An idea I had which you lot will no doubt tell me is terrible is that for bus lanes like http://goo.gl/maps/p8RTX . Where you've everyone wanting to turn right into the shopping centre and me wanting to go straight on but having to sit in traffic. Is to replace them with "Green boxes" which would act like yellow boxes expect public transport could stop in them, the turn right rule wouldn't apply and you can't block access to it.

Basically this would allow people to drive in them if they knew they could get to the end with out having to stop and Public transport wouldn't be affect

_Kaiser_

jack presley wrote: »

I read/heard somewhere that a lot of the 24hr bus lanes would be hard shoulders otherwise so it's not like the they've eliminated a lane for normal traffic.

That's just moronic justification - not you by the way as I've heard the same thing myself - but if the road space is good enough to be used as a bus lane because there's a need for one, it should be good enough as a regular lane. Restricting that space unnecessarily is just a typically Irish problem.

Ditto the argument that bus lanes are also for cyclists. There's no reason why a full sized bus lane should be left unused by buses just to facilitate a few cyclists. This isn't (and won't ever be) Holland no matter what the latest planning fad is. I lived in Holland for a few years in my youth and Ireland will never be comparable in that regard - unless they just plan to continue taxing drivers off the road completely.

seanmacc

jack presley wrote: »

I read/heard somewhere that a lot of the 24hr bus lanes would be hard shoulders otherwise so it's not like the they've eliminated a lane for normal traffic.

They're probably better off as bus lanes. In my experience people have a tendancy of using hard shoulders as legitimate areas to park whenever they like

monument

LeinsterDub wrote: »

An idea I had which you lot will no doubt tell me is terrible is that for bus lanes like http://goo.gl/maps/p8RTX . Where you've everyone wanting to turn right into the shopping centre and me wanting to go straight on but having to sit in traffic. Is to replace them with "Green boxes" which would act like yellow boxes expect public transport could stop in them, the turn right rule wouldn't apply and you can't block access to it.

Basically this would allow people to drive in them if they knew they could get to the end with out having to stop and Public transport wouldn't be affect

If most traffic is going into the shopping centre, why should the flow of public transport, cyclists and taxies be disrupted so one car can get ahead?

I'm waiting to be surprised with a good reason.

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

That's just moronic justification - not you by the way as I've heard the same thing myself - but if the road space is good enough to be used as a bus lane because there's a need for one, it should be good enough as a regular lane. Restricting that space unnecessarily is just a typically Irish problem.

Why is space which would otherwise be a hard shoulder needed by motorists off-peak?

Can you give any examples of 24 hour bus lanes which should be open to all off-peak?

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

Ditto the argument that bus lanes are also for cyclists. There's no reason why a full sized bus lane should be left unused by buses just to facilitate a few cyclists.

I can't see anywhere on this thread where that argument was made.

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

This isn't (and won't ever be) Holland no matter what the latest planning fad is. I lived in Holland for a few years in my youth and Ireland will never be comparable in that regard - unless they just plan to continue taxing drivers off the road completely.

I can't see a single good reason why Irish cities can't catch up with cities in the Netherlands in terms of modal share for cycling.

_Kaiser_

monument wrote: »

Why is space which would otherwise be a hard shoulder needed by motorists off-peak?

Can you give any examples of 24 hour bus lanes which should be open to all off-peak?

If there's physical road space available, it should be used as efficiently as possible - and setting up unnecessary hard shoulders or seldom used bus lanes isn't efficient

I can't see anywhere on this thread where that argument was made.

I was referring to your own point earlier about cyclists being able to use these lanes too. That's fair enough, but keeping a stretch of road as a bus lane when there's very few buses (if any) using it doesn't make sense.

I can't see a single good reason why Irish cities can't catch up with cities in the Netherlands in terms of modal share for cycling.

Because the reality is that most people have to commute to work from more than 3/4km away. Public transport is unreliable, slow, and infrequent if you're not on the "right" routes.

There's no LUAS or DART on most of the northside, and ultimately people (obsessed with owning property in the "good times" and even now) , bought houses in the middle of nowhere meaning cars are essential to get around.
Holland is a country where many people rent by choice and where they do so long-term - not just because they can't get a mortgage. As a result they have the freedom to relocate if they want to, and to locations where cycling may be a practical option. Not so here.

In short, it's an entirely different mindset, and while you can certainly change the road layouts as much as you want, changing THAT is a lot harder!

LeinsterDub

monument wrote: »

If most traffic is going into the shopping centre, why should the flow of public transport, cyclists and taxies be disrupted so one car can get ahead?

I'm waiting to be surprised with a good reason.

Because they won't be disrupted . I just continue driving changing lane a bit earlier instead of changing lane at the end of the bus lane

bigar

corktina wrote: »

Bus Lanes are also for taxis...

Never understood why. Taxis do not belong in it, let them just queue up in the normal traffic lanes.

monument

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

If there's physical road space available, it should be used as efficiently as possible - and setting up unnecessary hard shoulders or seldom used bus lanes isn't efficient

Can you give a single example of a 24 hour bus lane which should be open to all off-peak? I can't think of one.

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

I was referring to your own point earlier about cyclists being able to use these lanes too. That's fair enough, but keeping a stretch of road as a bus lane when there's very few buses (if any) using it doesn't make sense.

To you it might not make sense, but to bus passengers the extra reliability is valuable to priceless -- many taxi users and cyclists I'm sure also disagree with you.

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

Because the reality is that most people have to commute to work from more than 3/4km away.....

Why would 3/4km be a brick wall for cycling?

It differs around the country but Dublin is a prime example of large amounts of people living in cycling distances of where they work or study: http://cyclingindublin.com/myths-distances/

dissed doc

keith16 wrote: »

Anyone know of any bus lanes that are just there for the sake of it?

Don't get me wrong, there are some great bus corridors in Dublin that are essential and work really well.

But there are some like the one on Mount Merrion Avenue that are just ridiculous to be honest. There is one bus (the 17) that goes roughly every half an hour, usually with about four people sitting on it.

Not justified IMO, that road can be ridiculously busy heading toward the N11 and to have one lane in that direction effectively closed is a bit of a waste.

Or maybe I'm just being stupid? As I have said, there are some great QBCs in Dublin but anyone have examples where it's just a bit overkill?

Social engineering has to continue. I remember when it was being proposed, it made no sense, there was no plan for some rapid public transport expansion needing it, but for the love of god you could not have people in a wealthy neighbourhood freely driving down a road without a bus lane, or speed bumps (see: ambulances going to St. Vincent's).

Cookie_Monster

monument wrote: »

Can you give a single example of a 24 hour bus lane which should be open to all off-peak? I can't think of one.

N11

monument

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

N11

And why on the N11 is there a need to allow general traffic into the bus lane off peak? Are the other lanes even half full to capacity?