50th Episode - Here there be Spoilers

Daemos

Saw it in the cinema yesterday, but decided I'd come in after the mad explosion of comments

Well I absolutely love it. It was a great episode, made even better by the experience of watching it with a well-behaved crowd, and hearing their reaction to events and being able to react yourself - hard to get yourself excited if you're watching it alone in your living room

I just can't describe how much I loved it, I can't think of any faults, and I'm still in the post-episode delight mode and don't want to spoil it by people pointing out all the faults and plot holes, so I'll just sit quietly and wallow in my memories for now, and not think about what went wrong

I never watched the same episode two days in a row, but I will be rewatching the repeat tonight

Das Kitty

Phew. Finally at a full keyboard. :pac:

I thoroughly enjoyed it. The experience of being in a room with so many fans, all seeing it for the first time was something else. I was sorry my son wasn't just a little older as it would have been a great experience for him if he would have been able to be there.

I thought the usual Moffat style of having lots going on benefited hugely from the extra length to play with. I wasn't sitting there trying to keep up, there was plenty going on and plenty of time to process it during. I thought it was pretty tidy all told. I thought the Zygon element was a bit under-done, but I realised today that it wasn't about the Zygons.

I've always felt that Moffat was keen to undo how the Doctor's character was re-introduced in 2005 and bring him back to how he was before. Dismantling the Lonely God and we're finally in sight of the destination. He didn't burn them. He's not the Last of the Time Lords anymore. (Time to change the forum sub-header!)

I actually really like how Moffat has done it over time, peppering small nods here and there. The Doctor's room in the God Complex for example, his greatest fear, the man with his hand on the button.

I loved that he changed the accepted image of Gallifrey from a planet full of people 'as bad as the Daleks' by focusing on the innocents. (I'm reminded of the prequel to Asylum of the Daleks, where the Daleks were contacting him through his dreams and brought him to a room in which he wanted to leave immediately. It had that same sound of children's laughter we heard last night) 2.4 billion children he thought he murdered. Imagine living with that, and imagine that burden being lifted.

The banter between the Doctors was great too. The slagging over the Zygons' venomous tongues was great. I loved Ten letting out the Oncoming Storm at the rabbit.

As for the Doctor numbering. I'm sticking with the old way for now. I'll see how Moffat and the BBC refer to Peter Capaldi's Doctor come Christmas. I think it would be too confusing to renumber, personally.

I'm sure I'll have more thoughts than the above in the coming days. We watched it for a second time this morning with the youngfella. He's been playing Time Lords all day since. :pac:

Mr E

I just finished watching, and I didn't think it was great... strong start, poor middle, OK ending.
Fun script (in places), but more sh**ty rubber-faced aliens.

I'd been looking forward to this all weekend too.

/runs away.

Killer_banana

In regards numbering I can see Capaldi being called 13 but the rest staying the same since their 'names' are so ingrained in our mind as it is. We know now though Capaldi is truly the 13th though so I can see him being called so. As Das said though, I'll see how the BBC choose to do it.

One thing I remembered earlier today, how Clara lived was never dealt with, not even in a throwaway comment. We saw the Doctor save her at the end of The Name of the Doctor but it wasn't explained then either. I'm not trying to be super picky, as I said earlier I get why other people are happy to ignore plotholes, but that seems like a really big one to me. It was built up to over a season and then undone without telling us how, I'm surprised it wasn't dealt with even partly. I know sometimes the 'how' isn't explained but it seems like a pretty important 'how'. Of course it could be dealt with later, after all I'd given up on the Silence arc ever being finished and yet it looks like it will be now.

The_Valeyard

Mr E wrote: »

I just finished watching, and I didn't think it was great... strong start, poor middle, OK ending.
Fun script (in places), but more sh**ty rubber-faced aliens.

I'd been looking forward to this all weekend too.

/runs away.

EXTERMINATE!!! :P

Manach

'Timey Wimey!!!' - still smiling about that.

pixelburp

Mr E wrote: »

I just finished watching, and I didn't think it was great... strong start, poor middle, OK ending.
Fun script (in places), but more sh**ty rubber-faced aliens.

I'd been looking forward to this all weekend too.

/runs away.

Fair enough that you didn't like it as much as others, we all have our opinions, but for the bit in bold ... seriously?
Have you never watched Dr. Who before today?

Manach wrote: »

'Timey Wimey!!!' - still smiling about that.

"Timey ... what? Timey Wimey?"
"I've no idea where he picks that stuff up"
...
"Why are you pointing your screwdrivers like that? They're scientific instruments, not water pistols!"

I really hope Hurt's jabs at the 2 later docs are signs we might see a shift away from the sillier tropes that have crept up in Who

aligator_am

I asked this last night but spoilered out the whole thing in case some hadn't seen the ep at that point, I'll assume that everyone here has seen the ep now:

Has anyone any idea how all the Doctors knew the plan to capture the planet? I think 11 even said something like "you might say I've been planning for this all my lives".

Was also interesting how Tom Baker said you may see more of the old faces, was this foreshadowing the future Doctor(s) interacting with previous incarnations of himself?

Mr E

pixelburp wrote: »

Fair enough that you didn't like it as much as others, we all have our opinions, but for the bit in bold ... seriously?
Have you never watched Dr. Who before today?

Admittedly not an old school fan (well, I just haven't watched them), but I've been watching since Eccleston. They were one step above the slitheen.

Wibbs

Das Kitty wrote: »

I've always felt that Moffat was keen to undo how the Doctor's character was re-introduced in 2005 and bring him back to how he was before. Dismantling the Lonely God and we're finally in sight of the destination. He didn't burn them. He's not the Last of the Time Lords anymore. (Time to change the forum sub-header!)

I've had issues with the lonely god thang alright, especially as it gained more currency with Dave's Doc, but I have to say I liked RTD's original premise and a dark one it was too, underneath the farting aliens and a reboot trying to find it's audience, which dulled that down, sadly IMH. Remember the trailers before spoilers and needing puzzles to figure out?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQINlUB3Kww

Dodgy editing aside, there is more "cinematic" in that short clip than we got with this latest cinema released episode(IMH obviously) and he's a darker character with it(and the theme tune sounds well cool). That said the Doc I'd write/like to see would be well post watershed and the minds couch wouldn't be big enough to hide behind. Apocalypse Now with Cybermen kinda thing Of late having an oul peruse through the post 05(?) rejig, I'm surprised to see how the Dave's doc after Chris's got much lighter, more surface. For me anyway. Ecclestone is a very very good actor, but he's not entirely comfortable with the happy fun stuff and as a happy accident that discomfort worked for the Doc. Again for me because of that he's my fave Doc after Tom. There's an "alien" imbalance with both of them. And a gravitas. Behind the grins they're both a little effin scary. Dave and Matt cool though they are, just aren't. I have really high hopes for Capaldi on this score. I hope they let him kick off as he certainly can.

We watched it for a second time this morning with the youngfella. He's been playing Time Lords all day since. :pac:

and the circle continues. I was doing the same in 1976

Mr E wrote: »

I just finished watching, and I didn't think it was great... strong start, poor middle, OK ending.
Fun script (in places), but more sh**ty rubber-faced aliens.

I'd been looking forward to this all weekend too.

/runs away.

Jayzuz E don't hold back, ya mad thing ya. As the reboot Doc is fond of saying *takes D's hand* RUN. Though if I'm the Doc it's be more like "well... you run ahead. I'll catch up after I've had a cup of tea and a fag. It's OK, it's you they want to kill anyway". TBH I liked the old zygons. They were a little less rubber faced than when I saw them first as a kid running up agin Tom Baker and Lizzie Sladen(I had such a thing for her:)). Though to be fair given the constraints of budget and tech at the time the original zygons and their ship were pretty well done and horrific with it. Though the appearance of the Loch Ness monster is best remembered with a heavy veil drawn across it.

As I mused earlier I think the show foundered in one way in that although it was this hyped up and eagerly awaited "event" and cinema event at that, it felt like TV. NO offence to the director as it was great telly, but IMHO they should have sought out a film director and no doubt many of a certain age on both sides of the Atlantic and beyond would have lined up. EG the episode with Vincent Van Gogh penned by Richard Curtis was a little bit different to the usual(and usually great) writing fare. Yep it had issues, but it was more movie than TV in it's writing and pacing. Less TV rush, more subtlety. IMHO the anniversary needed more of that going on. John Hurt defo helped mind you.

Doctor DooM

It's just occurred to me the Doctor IS the curator of undergallery, the Queen appointed him as such...

Daemos

Mr E wrote: »

Admittedly not an old school fan (well, I just haven't watched them), but I've been watching since Eccleston. They were one step above the slitheen.

I would rather have a poor rubber-faced alien - which personally I didn't think the Zygons were, I thought they were great - than a decent CGI one. They add something that you just don't get with CGI

Yes, even Alpha Centauri

Loved that so much...actually can't put it into words any better than you lot already have!

Just wondering, as I've only watched Who since the reboot, does anyone know of a good place that explains the entire arc of Who since its inception? I had a look on Google but didn't find anything great, basically I'm not entirely sure where the Time War fits in, I always thought it was a backstory to the whole show but obviously if Hurt is a generation in the middle then that can't be the case. Were the first few series set during the Time War or when was it introduced?

Gotta get it all straight in my head, although I was surprised by how well Moffat tied up everything in that (for a change! :P)

Doctor DooM

Deleted User wrote: »

Loved that so much...actually can't put it into words any better than you lot already have!

Just wondering, as I've only watched Who since the reboot, does anyone know of a good place that explains the entire arc of Who since its inception? I had a look on Google but didn't find anything great, basically I'm not entirely sure where the Time War fits in, I always thought it was a backstory to the whole show but obviously if Hurt is a generation in the middle then that can't be the case. Were the first few series set during the Time War or when was it introduced?

Gotta get it all straight in my head, although I was surprised by how well Moffat tied up everything in that (for a change! :P)

The Tardis wiki is a good place to start.

http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/Doctor_Who_Wiki

McLoughlin

I wonder did the Curator give Osgood that scarf ?

shruikan2553

Deleted User wrote: »

Loved that so much...actually can't put it into words any better than you lot already have!

Just wondering, as I've only watched Who since the reboot, does anyone know of a good place that explains the entire arc of Who since its inception? I had a look on Google but didn't find anything great, basically I'm not entirely sure where the Time War fits in, I always thought it was a backstory to the whole show but obviously if Hurt is a generation in the middle then that can't be the case. Were the first few series set during the Time War or when was it introduced?

Gotta get it all straight in my head, although I was surprised by how well Moffat tied up everything in that (for a change! :P)

From what I know the time war was how the original series ended and then we skipped the war and ecclestone showed up talking about it being gone.

flazio

Has anyone read 'Summer Falls' by Amelia Williams? (James Goss went and wrote it and BBC Books brought it out on ebook while AudioGo brought it out on audio) there's an interesting character called the Curator in that as well.

ixoy

shruikan2553 wrote: »

From what I know the time war was how the original series ended and then we skipped the war and ecclestone showed up talking about it being gone.

Nope. The Time War had nothing to do with the first run at all. It was made up by RTD for the re-launch as a means to jettison the Doctor's character from a lot of the previous continuity and, as above, re-mould him.
Personally, glad to see the Time Lords back. Never liked the Doctor being the last of them (for what it's worth the novels, written in between the two series, also did pretty much the same thing!).

Agent Coulson

McLoughlin wrote: »

I wonder did the Curator give Osgood that scarf ?

I was wondering if she was the Curators granddaughter. This would bring the whole of Doctor Who right back to the beginning closing the circle. Granddaughter and Grandfather together again.

CramCycle

I throughly enjoyed it, small improvements could have been made but in general as close to the best they could have ever done with it.

TheIrishGrover wrote: »

[*]Liz reminded me a little bit too much of Queenie from Black Adder

LOL, couldn't stop laughing after I read this, so true.

Bit of a Deus ex Machina. Thought they'd actually push the button. Needed to be done. Let Clara see the steel side of the Doctor. I suppose it's the setup for the Christmas special/Capaldi's initial story arc.

I thought they would, set Cipaldi up to be a really dark but OK with it git but I think its better that they didnt't as Cipaldi can be whoever he wants character wise (or however he is told to be).

TheIrishGrover wrote: »

So WarDoc and 10 can't remember anything later because the timestreams are entwined. Once the untangle then they will forget. But, they are time travellers. Shouldn't all timestreams be engangled equally looking from outside the streams themselves? Shouldn't 11 forget too? Or is this just a don't-look-too-close thing?

It's Matts timestream, if the others remembered they could affect it and F stuff up, hence the "out of sync" comment and why he remembers.

BlitzKrieg wrote: »

In fact the issue of *saving galifrey* is that it goes against the reasoning previously stated as to why the doctor did what he did. Both sides had been consumed by war. Not just the daleks and the doctor was forced to end it wholly, not just defeat the daleks.

I disagree, IMO, all of the daleks are evil by their definition, not all of the timelords, not the children, not the immocents on the planet.

nobodyknows wrote: »

The Five(ish) Doctors Reboot

I thought the John Barrowman joke was hilarious.

SimonTemplar wrote: »

Loved the return of the fez

I like the idea that it is buried in his subconcious, he doesn't know why he likes them (he thinks they are cool) and he always wants to wear them (he doesn't know when he will have to use it). Genius.

aligator_am wrote: »

Wonder if whatever goulash they gave him extended his regenerations, or better yet, if he died and they brought him back to life without a regen does it reset so he has another 12 from that point on :P

I always forget how this works, where is the Valeyard?

Ron Burgundy ! wrote: »

correct me if i'm wrong but all 13 doctors came together to save gallifrey right? what i'm wondering is how did that work ? even if tennant and john hurt forgot saving gallifrey wouldn't the other doctors remember it therefore making tennant and hurt remember?

They forget for the same reason Hurt and Tennant forget, maybe facilitated by the Moment character (Billie Piper), so they all forget, until they remember.

Also someone said BP was Hurts conscience, pretty sure they say the Moment developed a conscience in the War Room and that is who is talking.

OU812

Watched it today. Loved it, but a little disappointed.

Would have loved to see Jack in even a cameo (I know he got a mention, but...), would have loved a little more explanation on Clara, would have loved Rose & Tenant's doctor to have at least one interaction (I know she wasn't Rose, but...). Would have loved to see Timothy Dalton reprise his role as one of the elders on Gallifrey.

Didn't like the 13th doctor's cameo as he doesn't exist yet, (also not sure if I like him as a doctor, can't warm to him at all).

Would have liked a cameo from the Master.

River should have had a mention. OK, not the most liked character, but she is the Doctor's wife & guide.

And where were the damn blink statues ??

Also, did they just nullify "The End of time" ?

Also (lastly), Gallifrey is in Ireland ?

bren2001

OU812 wrote: »

Watched it today. Loved it, but a little disappointed.

Would have loved to see Jack in even a cameo (I know he got a mention, but...), would have loved a little more explanation on Clara, would have loved Rose & Tenant's doctor to have at least one interaction (I know she wasn't Rose, but...). Would have loved to see Timothy Dalton reprise his role as one of the elders on Gallifrey.

Didn't like the 13th doctor's cameo as he doesn't exist yet, (also not sure if I like him as a doctor, can't warm to him at all).

Would have liked a cameo from the Master.

River should have had a mention. OK, not the most liked character, but she is the Doctor's wife & guide.

And where were the damn blink statues ??

Also, did they just nullify "The End of time" ?

Also (lastly), Gallifrey is in Ireland ?

She did get a mention (well a nod) when David asks Matt where is he going Matt replies "Spoilers!".

Das Kitty

bren2001 wrote: »

She did get a mention (well a nod) when David asks Matt where is he going Matt replies "Spoilers!".

And her red heels are in the Black Archive.

I think the show would have been way too cluttered if they had to force cameos from every notable character since the reboot...

Also I was So Glad that they managed to include Rose without *actually* including her, as she's my very least favourite Who character >.>

aligator_am

In honour of Tom Baker appearing in this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9zWuklil8g

I cried laughing when I saw this first, still chuckling watching it now all these years later

ixoy

Agent Coulson wrote: »

That was a small bit awesome.

Just watched the 5ish Doctors. Excellent stuff and especially good fun for those of us who've watched the original series. Loved the touch of the original '70s music when the actors were outside.

Anyone know how McCoy got the time - I mean he's staring in the Hobbit, directed by Oscar-winner Peter Jackson!

The very final scene, in the credits, really sold it for me. Davision and Moffat - you clever clever boys.

CramCycle

CramCycle wrote: »

not the immocents on the planet.

When did I learn to fail at using a typewriter?

Das Kitty

CramCycle wrote: »

When did I learn to fail at using a typewriter?

I haven't been able to spell or form sentences for the past week, but I get to blame a non-sleeping newborn.

Hermione*

I've watched it three times since yesterday

So many little moments that I loved. Loved the interactions between the three Doctors, Capaldi, 'no sir, thirteen!', and the last shot as Eleven enters the Tardis.
I thought it worked really well in balancing the need to mark the occasion and remember what had gone before, and telling a good Whovian story.

K-9

ixoy wrote: »

Just watched the 5ish Doctors. Excellent stuff and especially good fun for those of us who've watched the original series. Loved the touch of the original '70s music when the actors were outside.

Anyone know how McCoy got the time - I mean he's staring in the Hobbit, directed by Oscar-winner Peter Jackson!

The very final scene, in the credits, really sold it for me. Davision and Moffat - you clever clever boys.

The Hobbit is a bit like LOTR's that way, filming is largely done in a tranche, I'd say even if they were still filming, no problem, loved Jackson appearing in it.

He's a huge fan, talk of him directing an episode.

.

My favourite line was about the circles in the Tardis. Loved that scene, the circles, what are they for, don't have a clue.

I might be going mad, but they were in the museum as an art exhibit, or probably some significance towards a future story.

3D generally isn't that particularly great a cinematic experience barring Avatar or something like that, so I was happy enough with thinking a Fez was thrown at me, and a few other bits, plus we got a few extras that hopefully twitter and torrents will never get. I'll never see popcorn in the same way again!