small firms association

john1963

Why does Patricia Callan of the SMA call for public service pay to be decreased. How does lower pay help the SMA or any business? Surely lower pay means less money to spend which means lower sales for her members.
Or it an attempt to lower all wage levels

everdead.ie

I'd imagine it would help lower the bar for private sector pay and also lower future expectations on small firms having to pay more in taxes over the next few years if the deficit is smaller.

tenton

john1963 wrote: »

Why does Patricia Callan of the SMA call for public service pay to be decreased.

for the sake of the economy of the country, I would imagine. SMA members have a considerable investment in the state, and its members and their families live here. The current situation where average public sector pay is much higher that both public sector pay abroad and private sector pay here is unsustainable.

Gumbo

john1963 wrote: »

Why does Patricia Callan of the SMA call for public service pay to be decreased. How does lower pay help the SMA or any business? Surely lower pay means less money to spend which means lower sales for her members.
Or it an attempt to lower all wage levels

If they keep up with this race to the bottom, watch most of these SMA's close down as spending in the local economy will stop. Wonder what her members actually think?

antoobrien

kceire wrote: »

If they keep up with this race to the bottom, watch most of these SMA's close down as spending in the local economy will stop. Wonder what her members actually think?

Probably has something more to do with overall costs - and let's face wages is a huge chunk of the overall cost of supplying services (in general not just the PS) in Ireland.

An example of this kind of thinking is the streamlining that the DTTAS has done wrt computerising certain functions - they expect it to save transport businesses €32m in administration costs.

It doesn't necessarily mean a loss, but that money can be spent elsewhere by the SMEs e.g. wages, maintenance, equipment etc.

Farmer Pudsey

At the end of the day the same amount is in the economy it depends in who's hands it is in.The government has to raise so much in tax. Remember tax take's many forms, Household charge, TV licience, Rates, VAT etc. People on lower wages spend more in the local economy as opposed to those on higher wages.

If the government takes less in tax low paid workers in the private sector have more money to spend as this is the most likly place taxes will be increased over the next few years. Also the less tax/PRSI low paid workers have to pay the bigger the margin in Take home pay they have over Welfare so it is easier to employ them.

There is a myth that the more money PS have the more they spend in the Irish Economy in reality the higher there wages the more leakage out of the economy as the spend more on imported Electronic Goods, upgrade there cars, go on holidays abroad, and as you go further up the chain they buy holiday homes abroad for there retirement.

As the last PS redundancy scheme showed higher paid PS are faster to retire than low paid. With there pensions they can afford to holiday or travel alot abroad.

Only the real waelthy in the private sector can afford to retire early. look at the small builder, large farmer and local shop owner most work into there late sixties some may have holiday homes abroad but these are often investment/part of there pension plan.

Take a PS servant on a pension of 30K (older PS earn more than newly employed so the retire on higher pension) this is about 17.5K above the OAP. With the lump sum one and ahalf years pay and inflation proofed it would cost in the region of 5-600K. Very few workers in the private sector accumlate a pension of this size.

frankosw

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

. With the lump sum one and ahalf years pay and inflation proofed it would cost in the region of 5-600K. Very few workers in the private sector accumlate a pension of this size.

Well they should come and work for the public sector if it's so maginficent...why dont they?

tenton

frankosw wrote: »

Well they should come and work for the public sector if it's so maginficent...why dont they?

because not everyone can or should work for the public sector in any country. Communism was tried in other places abroad, and it failed. It would certainly fail in Ireland if every worker / person in the country had been paid the average public service pay over the past number of years of 49k a year. Two wrongs would not make a right, old chap.

creedp

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

There is a myth that the more money PS have the more they spend in the Irish Economy in reality the higher there wages the more leakage out of the economy as the spend more on imported Electronic Goods, upgrade there cars, go on holidays abroad, and as you go further up the chain they buy holiday homes abroad for there retirement

Back to the same tired old message that invades way too many threads imo ... PS are unpatriotic and spend all there money abroad unlike their patriotic private sector brethern.

Only the real waelthy in the private sector can afford to retire early. look at the small builder, large farmer and local shop owner most work into there late sixties some may have holiday homes abroad but these are often investment/part of there pension plan.

So the private sector comprises of self employed only? Anyway its good to know that these guys can afford foreign properties ... any chance this is why they have to work so long? Again private sector only buys holiday homes as an investment or to try and supplement their pension .. no chance they or their families could afford to use them! In the case of farmers it may also because they are paying back for €80k plus tractors and shiny Land Cruisers.

Take a PS servant on a pension of 30K (older PS earn more than newly employed so the retire on higher pension) this is about 17.5K above the OAP. With the lump sum one and ahalf years pay and inflation proofed it would cost in the region of 5-600K. Very few workers in the private sector accumlate a pension of this size.

We're always hearing about the €49k average salary .. so maybe we should use an average pension of €24.5k (or maybe low paid PS workers can't afford to retire either) which is only €12k above the OAP that all private sector workers get. So basically the gold plated pension works out at an extraordinary average of €12k per year - no wonder the private sector is so jealous.

road_high

tenton wrote: »

because not everyone can or should work for the public sector in any country. Communism was tried in other places abroad, and it failed. It would certainly fail in Ireland if every worker / person in the country had been paid the average public service pay over the past number of years of 49k a year. Two wrongs would not make a right, old chap.

I've no doubt the IMF will throw us out another few tens of billions to all "work" in the Public service producing or exporting nothing.

I'm being flippant of course, but just pointing out the absurdity of the "why don't you all work in the PS if it's so great" line.

tenton

creedp wrote: »

We're always hearing about the €49k average salary .. so maybe we should use an average pension of €24.5k

The average public service pension on completion of service is worth a lot more than 24.5k a year, because its based on finishing salay. At retirement age, because of promotion, increments etc, salary is higher than more junior grades. Do not forget retiring public servants also get 18 months salary gratuity / tax free lump sum.
So no , maybe you should not use an average pension of €24.5k

Gumbo

tenton wrote: »

The average public service pension on completion of service is worth a lot more than 24.5k a year, because its based on finishing salay. At retirement age, because of promotion, increments etc, salary is higher than more junior grades. Do not forget retiring public servants also get 18 months salary gratuity / tax free lump sum.
So no , maybe you should not use an average pension of €24.5k

Jimmmy, When the cost of public sector pensions is being discussed it is well to remember that in 2009 public servants made €3.1 billion pension contributions and €2.6 billion was paid out in pensions. Since then we have the pension levy of 7 per cent which amounts to another €2 billion. All of these contributions go into day to day spending and the pension reserve fund has been raided to fund our banks.

tenton

Seamus, according to Eddie Hobbs there's a ''debt mountain'' of over €100bn facing the Irsh citizen because the extraordinary cost of public sector pensions. During his piece on Newstalk radio he spoke of massive €5 & €6million payouts for some top civil servants. He went on to suggest that policy surrounding these pensions were set mostly by interested parties and that Ireland could not sustain this bill. So should we cap the pensions to say 60 or €70k? Do you thingk it's right and good that the country be lumbered with these debts at this time?

Gumbo

tenton wrote: »

Seamus, according to Eddie Hobbs there's a ''debt mountain'' of over €100bn facing the Irsh citizen because the extraordinary cost of public sector pensions. During his piece on Newstalk radio he spoke of massive €5 & €6million payouts for some top civil servants. He went on to suggest that policy surrounding these pensions were set mostly by interested parties and that Ireland could not sustain this bill. So should we cap the pensions to say 60 or €70k? Do you thingk it's right and good that the country be lumbered with these debts at this time?

Is this the same Eddie Hobbs that was trying sell home in Bulgaria to Irish people in 2006?

I have no problem with PS pensions being capped at 60 or 70k, as i will never reach a salary of 140k to earn these type of pensions.

john1963

i see this has developed into a private sector v public sector row which will deflect from the real issues....private sector workers who earn 30k and there are lots, get 15k a year if they work for 40 years. the state pension which public sector workers do not get is close to 12k....people who have never worked a day get that. The reality is that less pay for anyone public or private means less spending= a contracting economy with less jobs, less tax revenue and more social welfare payments. Nobody benefits from this. I wonder if coffee shop owners are benefitting from customers who have less disposable income.... and are they members of the SMA

Farmer Pudsey

creedp wrote: »

Back to the same tired old message that invades way too many threads imo ... PS are unpatriotic and spend all there money abroad unlike their patriotic private sector brethern.

So the private sector comprises of self employed only? Anyway its good to know that these guys can afford foreign properties ... any chance this is why they have to work so long? Again private sector only buys holiday homes as an investment or to try and supplement their pension .. no chance they or their families could afford to use them! In the case of farmers it may also because they are paying back for €80k plus tractors and shiny Land Cruisers.


We're always hearing about the €49k average salary .. so maybe we should use an average pension of €24.5k (or maybe low paid PS workers can't afford to retire either) which is only €12k above the OAP that all private sector workers get. So basically the gold plated pension works out at an extraordinary average of €12k per year - no wonder the private sector is so jealous.

Private sector dose not comprise of self employed only however in the last 10 years definef benifit pensions are a thing of the past for workers in the private sector and most of thses are in serious trouble like Aer Lingus. The Banks and other companies no longer fund them. So the ability of any private sector worker to fund a pension to retire in there late sixties is a large burden. As anuities are around 4% to fund a pension of 12K it would cost about 300K. This is to retire at about 65 and no indexing linking. To retire at 60 with indexing of 2-3% and a 50% survivor pension the annunity rate is 3%. So to fund some of the present retire's who have no OAP contributions for a 25K pension a fund of 900K would be needed this includes the 75K lump sum.

No workers in the private sector on similar levels of wages could fund such pensions. When posters talk about the level of pension contribution compare to draw down they fail to take into account that the people that retire now were recruited in the late 60's and 70's when the numbers in the public service was much much lower than now. It was from the late70's on that the public service grew in size with the last big expansion in the noughties so looking at present cost/contributions is misleading

Most farmers that I see with Land Cruisers are 8 years + old the reason that most are so new ( as in 8 years old) is that they upgraded when the builders one's were repossed. By the way I do not have one we have a 7 year old car and a small car van. On tractors very few farmers buy tractors above 20K most priced above that are used by contractors who are under pressure with repossions at present. If you diped in and out of the farming threads you would get a better idea about farming figures.

tenton wrote: »

Seamus, according to Eddie Hobbs there's a ''debt mountain'' of over €100bn facing the Irsh citizen because the extraordinary cost of public sector pensions. During his piece on Newstalk radio he spoke of massive €5 & €6million payouts for some top civil servants. He went on to suggest that policy surrounding these pensions were set mostly by interested parties and that Ireland could not sustain this bill. So should we cap the pensions to say 60 or €70k? Do you thingk it's right and good that the country be lumbered with these debts at this time?

My own opinion is that pensions should be caped at 40K this equates to a wage rate of 80K above this the public servant/politician should fund themselves.

road_high

john1963 wrote: »

i see this has developed into a private sector v public sector row which will deflect from the real issues....private sector workers who earn 30k and there are lots, get 15k a year if they work for 40 years. the state pension which public sector workers do not get is close to 12k....people who have never worked a day get that. The reality is that less pay for anyone public or private means less spending= a contracting economy with less jobs, less tax revenue and more social welfare payments. Nobody benefits from this. I wonder if coffee shop owners are benefitting from customers who have less disposable income.... and are they members of the SMA

But how are we going to pay back all this debt from living outside our means? That is worse in my opinion as we are kicking the can down the road, rather than cutting now. We will have billions going into interest payments rather than the real economy either.

creedp

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

Most farmers that I see with Land Cruisers are 8 years + old the reason that most are so new ( as in 8 years old) is that they upgraded when the builders one's were repossed. By the way I do not have one we have a 7 year old car and a small car van. On tractors very few farmers buy tractors above 20K most priced above that are used by contractors who are under pressure with repossions at present. If you diped in and out of the farming threads you would get a better idea about farming figures.

Not eveyone agrees with you!

Interesting that a young 25 year old part-time farmer considers it sustainable to purchase a €75k tractor in these difficult times. I like the point that he likes the idea of using the tractor's GPS capabiliteis for precision farmin and to save money and time. There must be very big fields in there Wicklow!

I also like the point that "if young farmers prepared to pay €80,000 or €100,000 fro a tractor - and youcan be sure iit will be well scrutinised by the banks - they should be commended and not scorned"

I agree with him by the was but I worry for them as I can't understand how they can afford to pay for it when the average farm income is between €18k and €20k depending on what article you read.

Farming has come a long way in the last 20 years is all I can say!!


http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/weekend/2013/0112/1224328721903.html

Gumbo

creedp wrote: »

Not eveyone agrees with you!

Interesting that a young 25 year old part-time farmer considers it sustainable to purchase a €75k tractor in these difficult times. I like the point that he likes the idea of using the tractor's GPS capabiliteis for precision farmin and to save money and time. There must be very big fields in there Wicklow!

I also like the point that "if young farmers prepared to pay €80,000 or €100,000 fro a tractor - and youcan be sure iit will be well scrutinised by the banks - they should be commended and not scorned"

I agree with him by the was but I worry for them as I can't understand how they can afford to pay for it when the average farm income is between €18k and €20k depending on what article you read.

Farming has come a long way in the last 20 years is all I can say!!


http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/weekend/2013/0112/1224328721903.html

My cousin is in DIT at the moment, and he says the only kids with money in there are the farming kids. They have the disposible money for nights out, lunches, although the canteen in there is subsidised.

They are getting full grants and living in Dublin with extended family!

Gumbo

tenton wrote: »

Ah your cousin says ....yeah yeah yeah.

Agh, Jimmmy says yeah yeah yeah....
Ask a stupid question, get a stupid answer.

tenton

Seamus, what about your other cousin who was a travel agent and - from chatting to his biggest customers ( those who spent over 3 or 4 grand ) - found out that most of them were public servants (or retired public servants spending their 18 months tax free retirement lump sum or whatever )? I do not bring up cousins or friends or their experiences.

Gumbo

tenton wrote: »

Seamus, what about your other cousin who was a travel agent and - from chatting to his biggest customers ( those who spent over 3 or 4 grand ) - found out that most of them were public servants (or retired public servants spending their 18 months tax free retirement lump sum or whatever )? I do not bring up cousins or friends or their experiences.

I have no travel agent cousins, but im sure you do jimmmy. And never once in the years of booking holidays or buying cars, or selling cars did anyone ever ask me whether i was a public sector worker or private sector worker.

Now, tell me more about this chubby friend of yours that was not very intelligent, but joined the guards and retired at 50 with multiple properties etc etc etc

frankosw

tenton wrote: »

Seamus, what about your other cousin who was a travel agent and - from chatting to his biggest customers ( those who spent over 3 or 4 grand ) - found out that most of them were public servants (or retired public servants spending their 18 months tax free retirement lump sum or whatever )? I do not bring up cousins or friends or their experiences.

I dont know any travel agents that ask people what they work at..they certainly doont have access to information about where they got the money,lump sums or anything else.

frankosw

tenton wrote: »

Seamus, according to Eddie Hobbs there's a ''debt mountain'' of over €100bn facing the Irsh citizen because the extraordinary cost of public sector pensions.

Eddie Hobbs,eh?

The man who was encouraging people to invest in property in the almost unihabitable Cape Verde islands?

sarumite

kceire wrote: »

Jimmmy, When the cost of public sector pensions is being discussed it is well to remember that in 2009 public servants made €3.1 billion pension contributions and €2.6 billion was paid out in pensions.

Thats a pretty useless statistic. Its to be expected when the numbers in the PS swell. As people retire and are not replaced the number contributing to the pension will decrease and the number withdrawing pensions will increase. This will see a reversal in the situation. Pensions are long term, choosing a single point in time give very little information on the pensions themselves.

Since then we have the pension levy of 7 per cent which amounts to another €2 billion. All of these contributions go into day to day spending and the pension reserve fund has been raided to fund our banks.

The pension levy has been described as a pay cut and not a pension contribution.

tenton

kceire wrote: »

And never once in the years of booking holidays or buying cars, or selling cars did anyone ever ask me whether i was a public sector worker or private sector worker.

ah but your cousin the salesperson in the town does know who most of his main customers ( those who give him 3 or 4 grand or more )...and remember how you said that he said that most of his customers were public servants? Small cities / towns are like that, people often know people. Like your mate the auctioneer who said most of his customers for holiday homes in the boom years were teachers, college lecturers, etc

kceire wrote: »

Now, tell me more about this chubby friend of yours that was not very intelligent, but joined the guards and retired at 50 with multiple properties etc etc etc

have not a clue what you are talking about seamus old chap.

sarumite

frankosw wrote: »

Eddie Hobbs,eh?

The man who was encouraging people to invest in property in the almost unihabitable Cape Verde islands?

Cape Verde island have a higher population density than Ireland.

tenton

sarumite wrote: »

Cape Verde island have a higher population density than Ireland.

and word has it 70 % of the Irish people who invested there were public servants - teachers , lecturers etc. No wonder they do not want their salaries to come down to realistic levels - do you realise how expensive it is to have a holiday home, even if you have a golden pension to look foward to?

road_high

tenton wrote: »

and word has it 70 % of the Irish people who invested there were public servants - teachers , lecturers etc. No wonder they do not want their salaries to come down to realistic levels - do you realise how expensive it is to have a holiday home, even if you have a golden pension to look foward to?

I had hoped when the IMF came this was going to happen. The bottom line here is that while the deficit has come down somewhat, it's nowhere as far as it should have been.
Public service spending is going to have to come down and we can argue 'til the cows come home that lower paid PS workers shouldn't be touched etc etc. I don't think that is at all credible as the vast bulk of spending is going on the so-called lower paid/middle ranks. It's where the real savings are and thus the only option.
The govt can't pluck money from thin air and all low hanging fruit is well and truly gone. Yet the deficit remains. And we are still borrowing to make up the shortfall. It's patently obvious that the tax side has been more than exhausted now, as the IMF are warning the govt.
In the context of the above, I find it incredulous increments have not been frozen (yet).

Dob74

john1963 wrote: »

Why does Patricia Callan of the SMA call for public service pay to be decreased. How does lower pay help the SMA or any business? Surely lower pay means less money to spend which means lower sales for her members.
Or it an attempt to lower all wage levels

Just another special interest group with a narrow focus.
Surely it would be more beneficial to cut rents and land values than to cut wages.
Oh yeah where do you join sma? When you are applying for a business loan in a bank, It's thrown in your face. Just another mouth piece for the banks since lower rents and land prices would wipe even more money from there balance sheets.

Farmer Pudsey

creedp wrote: »

Not eveyone agrees with you!

Interesting that a young 25 year old part-time farmer considers it sustainable to purchase a €75k tractor in these difficult times. I like the point that he likes the idea of using the tractor's GPS capabiliteis for precision farmin and to save money and time. There must be very big fields in there Wicklow!

I also like the point that "if young farmers prepared to pay €80,000 or €100,000 fro a tractor - and youcan be sure iit will be well scrutinised by the banks - they should be commended and not scorned"

I agree with him by the was but I worry for them as I can't understand how they can afford to pay for it when the average farm income is between €18k and €20k depending on what article you read.

Farming has come a long way in the last 20 years is all I can say!!


http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/weekend/2013/0112/1224328721903.html

Creep D I know 3 farmers contractors only one is fulltime at it and he has all 10year old equipment. The other two are dairy farmers like the first example in the Irish Times and looking at one of there figure he should only have the cows he is breaking evens on the contracting 2 out of 3 years at best the third he might make a small profit. But like a lot of farmers he has got the machiner bug. The second reckons that with out the cows they would be broke.

The third earns a very average wage he is vat registered like the other two. But cannot afford to buy new machinery if he could get a fulltime job 30K+ ayear he jack it.

Ever couple of weeks in the Frmers Journal ( know affectionaly as the Rag) there is an article about repossions of machinery from farming contractors. The 25 year old part time farmer it will be a long time before he will make any money out of that tractor but boys will have toys. If he was a young well paid PS he be buying a 50K Audi or BMW.

And if you see it is the Machinery Companies that are backing the Finance and I be Afraid verrry Afraid for some of your examples. The last 12 months has changed a lot of things in farming

creedp

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

If he was a young well paid PS he be buying a 50K Audi or BMW.

Im not foolish enough to think that every farmer is wealthy and can afford €80k tractors. Neither am I nieve enough to believe that some farmers dont earn a good living and cant afford them. This is the problem with using averages .. however that doesnt stop people trying..

The other thing that can be bloody annoying is statements like the one quoted above. So young PS are the population cohort pursued by Audi .. presumably you have some reference to support this assertion?

Gumbo

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

Creep D I know 3 farmers contractors only one is fulltime at it and he has all 10year old equipment. The other two are dairy farmers like the first example in the Irish Times and looking at one of there figure he should only have the cows he is breaking evens on the contracting 2 out of 3 years at best the third he might make a small profit. But like a lot of farmers he has got the machiner bug. The second reckons that with out the cows they would be broke.

The third earns a very average wage he is vat registered like the other two. But cannot afford to buy new machinery if he could get a fulltime job 30K+ ayear he jack it.

Ever couple of weeks in the Frmers Journal ( know affectionaly as the Rag) there is an article about repossions of machinery from farming contractors. The 25 year old part time farmer it will be a long time before he will make any money out of that tractor but boys will have toys. If he was a young well paid PS he be buying a 50K Audi or BMW.

And if you see it is the Machinery Companies that are backing the Finance and I be Afraid verrry Afraid for some of your examples. The last 12 months has changed a lot of things in farming

You will never ever meet a poor farmer, no matter what they say.

road_high

kceire wrote: »

You will never ever meet a poor farmer, no matter what they say.

What a ridiculous generalisation. The average income figures prove otherwise. What was the Teagasc figure, average of €18k or something last year...prob about the same as some PS workers get in overtime but lets not generalise eh? And all the above has nothing to do with what the SFA were saying about public expenditure. The agriculture budget has been cut to the bone i.e. Irish state funded....apart from keeping on all the Dept of Agriculture staff to administer obsolete schemes and lay needless bureaucracy.

Gumbo

mfitzy wrote: »

What a ridiculous generalisation. The average income figures prove otherwise. What was the Teagasc figure, average of €18k or something last year...prob about the same as some PS workers get in overtime but lets not generalise eh? And all the above has nothing to do with what the SFA were saying about public expenditure. The agriculture budget has been cut to the bone i.e. Irish state funded....apart from keeping on all the Dept of Agriculture staff to administer obsolete schemes and lay needless bureaucracy.

I agree, time that small firms shout out at their disgust of comments the sfa are making. Generalisation is such a sticky topic around here, it's used on so many public servic threads that somehow it just becomes normal.

Time to stop the massive grants farmers get and education grants their children get while daddy sits in his 80k tractor.

road_high

kceire wrote: »

I agree, time that small firms shout out at their disgust of comments the sfa are making. Generalisation is such a sticky topic around here, it's used on so many public servic threads that somehow it just becomes normal.

Time to stop the massive grants farmers get and education grants their children get while daddy sits in his 80k tractor.

Examples and firm evidence of same? You talk about generalisations then go on to make huge ones right here.

Gumbo

mfitzy wrote: »

Examples and firm evidence of same? You talk about generalisations then go on to make huge ones right here.

Don't need examples or evidence. Haven't been shown any from the other side so I just assume we are allowed make stuff up. Just like the 18k per year in over time you posted, get real, deluded comment on an open forum.......

road_high

kceire wrote: »

Don't need examples or evidence. Haven't been shown any from the other side so I just assume we are allowed make stuff up. Just like the 18k per year in over time you posted, get real, deluded comment on an open forum.......

I know you don't, that's very clear!! you just spout the same non-sense regardless of evidence or not.

Gumbo

mfitzy wrote: »

I know you don't, that's very clear!! you just spout the same non-sense regardless of evidence or not.

If I just copy/paste you post and direct it straight back to you, then the comment works too

K-9

I'm totally lost as to what this thread is about after reading it, thought it was a discussion on farming, then interesting anecdotes about who buys Audi's, holiday homes and where people holiday. I just give up at this stage and it's going nowhere.