Athiest Parents and Catholic/Protestant Schools

Kiwi in IE

Guys, I know there is loads of threads on education already, but I'd like your thoughts on whether Protestant Schools are less focused on religion than Catholic? I know they have no Communion in First Class, but I am talking about overall, day to day religious content?

We are in a situation (like many others), where there is no educate together and we must choose between numerous Catholic, or a Protestant School. My gut feeling is that the Protestant one is likely to be slightly more palatable for an athiest family?

My son starts school in September. Enrolments are in February, but we are in NZ for that whole month, so I have to enrol him early. I enrolled him in the local Catholic School today, most of his Montessori class are going there, and we don't have a huge amount of choice, but I have felt sick ever since I took the form back.

There was an option on the enrolment form to sit him out of sex education, but not to sit him out of religion class. The first thing that met me when I entered the building was that horrible open heart surgery picture. They asked for his baptismal certificate to be included with the returned form, meaning I had to explain our position to the secretary. I told her he is no religion and won't be doing communion or confirmation. Unfortunately we did have him baptised. We were on holiday in Ireland prior to moving here, and I were a naive idiot from a secular country who didn't find religion offensive because it wasn't forced on me. It was important to my partners parents and at the time, I naively didn't care if he were baptised or not. However I am not declaring my four tear old as any religion, and am not providing the baptismal certificate.

I'd like the opinion of other athiest parents who are in our position. What are your positive/negative experiences and comparisons between RCC/COI schools in regard to religious content. I wonder if I have done the right thing? Is there little difference anyway? Or would we be likely to find the Protestant school less loopy?

lazygal

I would say it very much depends on the ethos of the school and the overall approach of the patron. There's a very nice, small school near us with a Church of Ireland ethos. There's a prayer service once a week and no option to opt out, unless the parent/guardian can supervise the child, which isn't really practical. From what I've heard, there's less infusion of religion throughout the school day, like time given to prep for sacraments and prayers before lunch, parish priest dropping in, God making the flowers, all the stuff I know happens in the local Catholic school. But I know schools affiliated to the more evangelical protestant faiths would have a lot more religion as part of the school day.

Kiwi in IE

Thanks lazygal. I am really uncertain. It's a lesser of two evils situation in regard to religious content, but I'm not sure if it is worth sending him somewhere different than his friends and further away. If I didn't have those factors to consider as well, the lack of belief in transubstantiation would be a good enough reason alone. I find that one outstandingly ridiculous, beyond even the realms of normal religious ridiculousness!

lazygal

We are incredibly lucky as we have been offered a place in our local ET but the Catholic school was second. Academically its probably superior but we also have to think of our family dynamic. My only consolation should something happen and the wee lass had to go there was that a)I went there, did the alter server/church choir/loved mass thing and am now as atheist as they come and b) she wouldn't be the only odd one out in the class.

What I find most frustrating about religion is not the classes per se. It's the fact that your child might land in with a teacher who's very into 'God made the flower, god wants little children to be good, let's thank god for our lunches' crap and then the time for practicing for communions, nativity plays and all the jazz. That's what annoys me, the god stuff permeates the curriculum, even the standard non religious elements, and its really the luck of the draw how much one's child will be exposed to it.

Kiwi in IE

This is what concerns me too. I have heard that it is completely luck of the draw based on how religious or not the teacher is. From what I've been told, some will just go through the religious part of the curriculum in order to tick the box, and others will allow it to permeate every subject. In a small rural school you have no option to ask for a class change if you are unlucky enough to get a religious fanatic!

Do you have grounds to complain if you feel what they are being taught is totally inappropriate? For example if they were to go on about hell and sin to small children?

Kiwi in IE

Apparently there is very little focus on religion in the COI school where we are. Our neighbours kids go there and they have said it's nothing like 10% of class time, which it reportedly is in RCC schools. I have the family dynamic to consider to some extent also.

Aenaes

Giving my own experience, as I went to a Protestant primary school in the nineties. There wasn't much religious emphasis in the day-to-day classroom.

Obviously, there was no hail Mary thing at the start of every class/lesson (which freaked me out when I went to a Catholic secondary school), also no prayer room, no blessing of the school and no marking yourself on Ash Wednesday. Another thing was the lack of symbolism. In the secondary school there was a statue of Mary and Padre Pio not to mention countless carvings/pictures of Jesus chillin' on the cross. Perhaps take a little walk around the school to see if there are any overt signs like these? It might give you an indication.

There were exceptions of course but the above are kinda the main agents of symbolism that might sweep children up in the pageantry of it all. Easter and Christmas were biggish occasions, making cards/eggs for Easter and there were nativity plays for Christmas. Giving things up for Lent was encouraged. A weekly assembly was held, put together by the different classes, some based on just being/doing good and some based on bible stories. There was some hymn singing in these assemblies too, Kumbaya et cetera.
There was also a few visits from the reverend in 5th and 6th class, I think he came in once a week as part of a religion class. I think this may have been preparation for our confirmation.

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

Do you have grounds to complain if you feel what they are being taught is totally inappropriate? For example if they were to go on about hell and sin to small children?

I experienced very little of the hell-fire and damnation approach. Everything seemed to be focused on the "good" things that happened.

I feel like I've rambled on alot there but I hoped I've helped a little.

Peregrinus

It very much depends on the school, and there's no substituted for visiting the school and talking to them about it.

If anything, schools identified with a minority religion tend to be a little more assertive about their identity - it goes with the territory of being a minority. I'm aware of non-believing parents who sent their kid to Jewish schools in the expectation that this would be a more religion-free environment than a Catholic school. This was not a very well-thought-through expectation or, it turned out, an accurate one.

On the other hand, what minority schools should have plenty of experience of is dealing with pupils who don't share the school's religious identity. So they may have thought through better what is involved, and how they need to cater to the needs of those students. So a C of I school might be worth looking at - not because it will be less Christian than a Catholic school, but because it may be better at catering for non-Christian (or at least non-C of I) pupils.

jank

Why was my post deleted, all I said is go with the school that provides the best overall education.

Peregrinus

Peregrinus wrote: »

If anything, schools identified with a minority religion tend to be a little more assertive about their identity - it goes with the territory of being a minority. I'm aware of non-believing parents who sent their kid to Jewish schools in the expectation that this would be a more religion-free environment than a Catholic school. This was not a very well-thought-through expectation or, it turned out, an accurate one.

It was for me. Got off early on fridays instead of wednesdays, that was it

Zillah

There are people that would specifically request that their children not take part in a sex education class. The mind boggles at the small-minded, stubborn brain that leads to that decision.

Ewwwwwww, talking about sex?! But...sex is bad!

Kiwi in IE

Thanks for the tips and advice. I have been into several schools around here and talked to teachers/principles, including the Protestant school. All play down the religious aspect as soon as you mention that you are not religious. I am not sure if this is a reflection of reality or just an attempt to sell the school. For example when I was showed around the Protestant school, I was told there is much less focus on religion than in the Catholic schools. To be fair if RCC schools spend 10% of class time on religion, there couldn't be any more anyway!

We get to the point where we think we have made a decision and then panic that it is the wrong one.

Kiwi in IE

Aenaes wrote: »

Giving my own experience, as I went to a Protestant primary school in the nineties. There wasn't much religious emphasis in the day-to-day classroom.

Obviously, there was no hail Mary thing at the start of every class/lesson (which freaked me out when I went to a Catholic secondary school), also no prayer room, no blessing of the school and no marking yourself on Ash Wednesday. Another thing was the lack of symbolism. In the secondary school there was a statue of Mary and Padre Pio not to mention countless carvings/pictures of Jesus chillin' on the cross. Perhaps take a little walk around the school to see if there are any overt signs like these? It might give you an indication.

There were exceptions of course but the above are kinda the main agents of symbolism that might sweep children up in the pageantry of it all. Easter and Christmas were biggish occasions, making cards/eggs for Easter and there were nativity plays for Christmas. Giving things up for Lent was encouraged. A weekly assembly was held, put together by the different classes, some based on just being/doing good and some based on bible stories. There was some hymn singing in these assemblies too, Kumbaya et cetera.
There was also a few visits from the reverend in 5th and 6th class, I think he came in once a week as part of a religion class. I think this may have been preparation for our confirmation.



I experienced very little of the hell-fire and damnation approach. Everything seemed to be focused on the "good" things that happened.

I feel like I've rambled on alot there but I hoped I've helped a little.

Thank you. It's good to hear from someone with a personal experience of a COI school. There is definitely a huge difference in the levels of symbolism between the schools in this area. Nothing overtly religious in the COI school. As soon as you walk in the main entrance of the local RCC you are met with a hideous, huge picture of open heart surgery and there are crucifixes in every classroom.

robindch

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

Nothing overtly religious in the COI school.

That depends on the school you're looking at.

I gather the ET movement arose because a group of parents were unhappy with the hardline religious policies adopted by a new headmaster appointed to a (previously relaxed) COI school in south Dublin.

Dades

jank wrote: »

Why was my post deleted, all I said is go with the school that provides the best overall education.

It was off-topic regarding the OP's specific question, and phrased in a manner likely to turn this into the jank show again.

Nothing to see here everyone move on.

daffy123

Hi Kiwi in IE. All our children went to our local C of I school in South Dublin. I think the main difference between the CofI schools and the RC schools is that religion class is separate and does not permeate the whole day. There are no crucifixes or statues in the school. There was some hymn singing and a few prayers at assembly once a week but the amount of time spent on religion in general was very minimal. The school was actually very mixed with children from many religious backgrounds and this didn't seem to cause any difficulties.

Kiwi in IE

robindch wrote: »

That depends on the school you're looking at.

I gather the ET movement arose because a group of parents were unhappy with the hardline religious policies adopted by a new headmaster appointed to a (previously relaxed) COI school in south Dublin.

It really does sound like it is completely 'luck of the draw' with either denomination. Clearly you can sometimes get lucky with teachers/principles who only teach it because they have to, to tick the boxes, or you can get a nightmare religious fanatic. The RCC one I have enrolled him in is probably no better or worse than any other. The choices we have are far from satisfactory so it is a lose/lose situation.

car.kar

I went to a CoI primary school, and don't particularly recall much religious stuff. There was an assembly once a week where we sang about two hymns, but certainly it didn't effect normal classes like science or english. My school was affiliated with the local CoI church, so any end of year services were held there, yes, but no open heart surgery pictures, no hail mary's, no "thank the lord for our sandwiches".

Having said that though I do agree that it's the luck of the draw - most of our teachers were more focused on actual education, but I did have one nut job in third class that was a fanatic ... eventually too many parents complained about her and she 'took some time off'.

I have friends who went to Catholic primary schools that were surprised I only had assembly once a week - it seems they had it daily, and recited prayers at various points through out the day also.

I personally would say CoI is the lesser of two evils - but it depends if the school is CoI? If its a different branch of Protestantism - Evangelical, for example - it will probably be as religious as a Catholic school would be. The only difference I tend to note between intense Catholicism and intense Protestantism is that Catholicism is more "obey god and fear him", where as the Proddies would be "love god and worship him". So ... probably still the lesser of two evils.

That's just my experience though :-)

eyescreamcone

Someone mentioned to me that COI schools have better facilities than RC schools. Any truth in this?

lazygal

eyescreamcone wrote: »

Someone mentioned to me that COI schools have better facilities than RC schools. Any truth in this?

Not in the ones I know, fewer children can mean less in capital funding and parental ccontributions.

swampgas

Zillah wrote: »

There are people that would specifically request that their children not take part in a sex education class. The mind boggles at the small-minded, stubborn brain that leads to that decision.

Ewwwwwww, talking about sex?! But...sex is bad!

And these are people who managed to have enough sex to procreate. I can't imagine what kind of screwed-up guilt-fest goes on in their heads.

recedite

Aenaes wrote: »

Another thing was the lack of symbolism..................
There was also a few visits from the reverend in 5th and 6th class, I think he came in once a week as part of a religion class. I think this may have been preparation for our confirmation.

Less symbolism is part of the religion, but it does not mean less indoctrination permeating the school day.
The Rev. was probably in the classroom fishing around for likely recruits for his confirmation classes, which would happen outside of school hours, over in the rectory. That is probably one of the biggest differences, ie the fact that you didn't even notice which classmates went to the classes, or how many of them did.

Obliq

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

We are in a situation (like many others), where there is no educate together and we must choose between numerous Catholic, or a Protestant School. My gut feeling is that the Protestant one is likely to be slightly more palatable for an athiest family?

Hiya Kiwi - I'm assuming from this sentence that you are in a fairly rural area where there are many small schools within driving distance. This was my experience (my youngest being set to move on from primary next year), except that there were NO protestant schools at all and one Steiner within a 20 mile radius. There are 3 catholic N.S. schools within a 10 minute drive and most of my son's play-school mates were going to the nearest.

When it came to making a decision at the time, I had met a number of the parents from each of my choices. The Steiner - well....to be honest, it was very clear to me that they were a cliquey bunch (this has since improved) and their children subsequently became cliques in the two local secondary schools (also since improved). So, as I wish my children to be inclusive types, there were 3 N.S. to choose from.

I had got to know a few local parents (had a child quite soon after "blowing in" to the area) and the REAL locals were quite offended by the idea of my sending the child even to the next village, never mind right outside the area. There are many considerations to take on board about where your child goes to school, but I would say NOT LEAST his/her own community. I sent my lads to the local N.S., not through peer pressure, but because their play-school friends were going there. Best decision I ever made, and not at all based on what religion the school is. Now admittedly, there wasn't a sacred heart in sight - or any reference to the CC whatsoever - but I can safely say that in my experience (looking back), religious affiliation was the least of my worries. It is not at all unusual around here that parents move their children from one school to another, if they are not getting on well in the first one.

There may be a school ethos that encourages individuality/personal growth/fun/achievement in one, that is lacking in another, never mind the religion. Small schools will give that opportunity, or take it away. It entirely depends on who is running it (and quite possibly, the involvement of the church, just as much as the board of management/teaching staff/parent's association). In a rural area, it's more pot-luck than anything else, but believe me - the religious indoctrination/lack of, falls WAY behind the school's management of bullying/discipline and it's encouragement of school as a fun/nurturing environment.

I advise you to talk to parents, if you know any, from all the schools. Listen to the gossip. Ask about bullying. Ask about religion/science. Ask about whether there were any other atheists that sent their kids there (I was the 1st in my boy's school! Did them not a bit of harm). Ask is there a Parent's association. Ask if the teachers are approachable (liked by children/kind/able to maintain discipline, etc.) and which ones aren't (this was a MAJOR factor in kids being moved from schools in my area)..........

But bear in mind that it is a lottery, and you will face agonising questions about where your child is best educated THROUGHOUT their schooling - as their personality develops, as they interact with their peers, as they come home spouting crap about "God made the flowers", as they cry on the way to school or say "no one likes me - I'm left out of everything". Religion, and the way it is taught in an individual school is just one weight on the scale - it may be outweighed by other considerations.

Above all, don't beat yourself up if the 1st school you choose doesn't suit you or your child. This happens. School is SO much more about the personalities that run it being compatible with your own, than anything else- especially at primary level. By secondary, you'll be so exhausted that it matters less...... (joke!! - I've an ASD kid set to go to secondary, where his obsessive aversion to homework may ruin our lives. Religion? Couldn't give a flying F***)

Red Pepper

My kid is attending a Catholic school. I learned today that 10 children out of 28 in 2nd class are not doing communion. Sign of the times even though I think several of the 10 have recent immigrant parents. Given time I think the demand from parents and willingness of teachers to perform religious duties will get less and less and schools will adapt.

Kiwi in IE

The fact COI ordain women, don't believe in crying statues, transubstantiation or 'limbo' for unbaptised babies, accept contraception and are overall more liberal in attitude (it'd be hard not to) toward gay people, abortion etc does make it seem the lesser of two evils to me. There are other factors I have to consider though, like family dynamics. If I were only choosing between the two religions and considering nothing else, it would be COI. I posted the OP because I wanted to see if other athiest parents had similar views. I am wondering if I've made a mistake enrolling him in the local RCC if COI is slightly less offensive overall.

This is proving to be an impossible decision causing arguments in my house!

Obliq

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

The fact COI ordain women, don't believe in crying statues, transubstantiation or 'limbo' for unbaptised babies, accept contraception and are overall more liberal in attitude (it'd be hard not to) toward gay people, abortion etc does make it seem the lesser of two evils to me. There are other factors I have to consider though, like family dynamics. If I were only choosing between the two religions and considering nothing else, it would be COI. I posted the OP because I wanted to see if other athiest parents had similar views. I am wondering if I've made a mistake enrolling him in the local RCC if COI is slightly less offensive overall.

This is proving to be an impossible decision causing arguments in my house!

Any chance you could base the decision on something else? Like whether you get on better with the RCC parents or the COI parents?

Kiwi in IE

Thanks Oblique. I am considering all those things as well. To be quite honest I'm tearing my hair out. A very good friend of mine has her daughter in the RCC where I enrolled him. She is happy with it (although she was raised Catholic, wouldn't describe herself as athiest even though she technically is, and is more likely to 'go with the flow' than me). My son adores her daughter and a couple from his play school are going there too. These were my initial reasons to enroll. When I did, the open heart surgery and demand for baptismal certificates got me going again on the indecision.

Obliq

Yeah, I can imagine the indecision :eek: Sounds awful - I would have had a serious problem with religious imagery being everywhere (and tbh, that would probably say a lot to me about how pushed, or pushy the school is about a faith....). I've never been laid back about my atheism, but then again, I've never encountered the more "in your face" RCC imagery in any school around here.

I remember bringing it up with my Dad, when I was first considering denominational school v travelling for miles and going outside my community. All he said (as a staunch atheist, forced to Mass till he left school at 14) was "I wouldn't worry, they'll lose it all with their first pint". I think that's what I've been trying to say really - there may be more concerns than religion with any school.

Obviously, if a school is more "creationist" than not, then it's clearly not a runner - but if it caters quite well for the more lackadaisical religious, then perhaps it becomes more an issue of how much you are prepared to ignore, than how much your child will be "taught" of a particular dogma? In an area where you have little or no choice, I mean.

For the record, I went to a protestant N.S., and that was the school where I was "looked at" by the teacher for not knowing prayers, and was questioned about why I was an atheist (age 8) when no other child was questioned about their belief. I lost all the resentment/hang ups about "being different" well before my first pint

Kiwi in IE

I did actually consider doing an hour round trip twice a day for the next 8 years to attend an ET school. If it were only the travelling to consider I would happily do it. However I decided I was being ridiculous considering adding an hour to his school day every day, and sending him to school miles out of his own community for the sake of my own (lack of) beliefs.

Kiwi in IE

Obliq wrote: »

Any chance you could base the decision on something else? Like whether you get on better with the RCC parents or the COI parents?

I wouldn't say I get on with one lot better than the other. There are nice people I know whose kids attend both schools, and others in both I wouldn't be too bothered with. Something I find strange here is that everyone knows what religion everyone else is. In NZ no one really cares about religion. Other than very close friends and family I wouldn't have had a clue what religion, if any, that colleagues and acquaintances were. Here I know the religion of everyone I associate with, and not because I've shown any interest in knowing. No one talks about it at home. It certainly dosn't come up in everyday conversation with acquaintances. I never identified as an athiest until moving to Ireland (although clearly that is what I was). On official forms you will be asked "Do you identify with any Religion? If so, what?. My answer was always no, and I never thought any more about religion.

Kiwi in IE

Red Pepper wrote: »

My kid is attending a Catholic school. I learned today that 10 children out of 28 in 2nd class are not doing communion. Sign of the times even though I think several of the 10 have recent immigrant parents. Given time I think the demand from parents and willingness of teachers to perform religious duties will get less and less and schools will adapt.

Haha. Recent immigrant parent is me!

Kiwi in IE

Religion certainly didn't annoy me in any way, shape or form until I moved here. I thought it was a bit mad, but maintained an 'each to their own' attitude. The thing is here it is not 'each to their own', and in response I have become very intolerant of it.

Hotblack Desiato

Yeah kind of the same with me, I would have regarded the RCC before as something to ignore having walked away from it in my teens, now that I'm a parent of a schoolgoing child it's something to oppose

Disgusted about many things in the RCC but their statements about 'respecting parents' wishes' etc. about education, while fighting a rearguard action against any change at all is yet another one.

Daughter started in the local CoI school last Sept. It's quite small, junior/senior infants double up in the one class, as do 1st/2nd class etc. My daughter's teacher is excellent (she's actually the principal) , daughter loves school and was actually worried on Monday that school might be closed because of the snow! (Kids these days, wtf?!? :pac: )

I don't have figures but I strongly suspect there are more kids from RCC families in the school than CoI. There are a few kids from other religions too.

They have a prayer service every Friday. Haven't looked into opting out of that, doubt alternative supervision is available and don't want daughter to feel excluded. There is RE but all schools in Ireland have to teach this. So far seems to be colouring in pictures in a workbook with 'thank you God for the flowers' etc. at the bottom of the page. Could do without that sort of thing but it's hardly going to turn her into a wannabe vicar or anything.

Incidentally both my wife and myself were brought up RCC but really didn't want to put our kids in an RCC school if possible. There are 3 large RCC schools nearby, no prospect it seems of one of them becoming an ET or something but there is definitely demand for an alternative in the area. We're not being surveyed here, as a mature area it seems that nothing can change as no new schools are going to be built here.

We're hoping to get our toddler into the CoI school in a couple of years so yeah it's the best option open to us (but we'd prefer an ET)

Hotblack Desiato

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2013/0201/breaking37.html

The reluctance of some Catholic groups to accept the proposed changes in school patronage has been criticised by the Archbishop of Dublin Diarmuid Martin.

Dr Martin pointed to the hesitation among some parts of the Catholic education system to let go.

His comments come as polling continues in 38 areas across the State where parents have been asked to select their preferred choice of school patron.

Dr Martin made his remarks yesterday in the course of a homily reflecting on Catholic Schools Week at the Church of Our Lady’s Nativity, Leixlip, Co Kildare.

"It might seem to some a paradox if I say that Catholic education will only survive in the Ireland of the future in the robust presence of other forms of education," he said.

"We have been speaking about a greater pluralism in patronage but I sometimes feel that there exists within parts of our Catholic education system a hesitation to let go or to feeling that somehow Catholic patronage can provide within its own structures the necessary pluralism required in society."

Interesting. Of course I expect nothing at all to happen as a result, but interesting nonetheless.

Hilarious comment on the IT article:

NoelHealy wrote:

In 1961 - 1965 The blessed Virgin gave messages concerning apostasy in The Roman Catholic Church in Garabandal Spain, I suppose this is the manifestation of messages by Our Lady. When you have an Arch bishop siding with a Socialist aiding and abetting the downgrading of Our beloved Roman Catholic Church. Is it any wonder that tears of blood shed from Our Blessed Lady's statutes. What has Arch Bishop Martin to say about Abortion.
Ireland has become a sinful dirty country.

Yeah and we're lovin' it :pac:

Kiwi in IE

I am back on this old Chestnut.

Had decided Little Kiwi is going to COI school in September due to less religious focus.

Had his Montessori graduation last night and his birthday party today. His teacher has said to parents several times that she has never had a class who are as close in her teaching career. I watched them today at his party and they look out for one another, walk about holding hands with each other, and are generally the sweetest, most lovely little children. My son adores every one of his classmates. All are from families I would trust enough to allow him to go on playdates etc.

Six of the twelve in his class are going to the local Catholic school. The other six including him will be scattered around other schools. He is the only one going to the COI school. There are only six junior infants starting in the COI. What if there is no child he really clicks with out of the other five, when I know for a fact there are six children in the Catholic school who would be in his class and who he has already formed friendships with. I am about to change my mind again and send him to the Catholic school I think. Go for the opt out of communion/confirmation option.

My head is done in with choosing a school for this kid! He is clever/cynical child. His grandmother is devoutly Catholic and told him that animals don't go to heaven. He was asking me about it and pointed out that this dosn't make sense as people are animals. Maybe I don't need to fear indoctrination as much as I do?

I am happy with the COI decision on the religion issue, but am I right to be depriving him of continuing on in school with children who he has formed a real bond, because of my views on religion? I suspect the answer is no, less than a week before the schools close for the summer.

nagirrac

Respectfully kiwi I think the main thing to keep in mind is that its your kid who will go through the school experience. At such a young age it is hard to expect a well thought out answer, but you might think about gently asking him his opinion. Given the choice of going to a school with 6 close friends relative to a small school environment where he knows nobody, he might actually have a strong view on this. As others have pointed out the religious element might be irrelevant, for all you know he might turn out to embrace religion and if he does then you can look forward to lots of interesting dinnertime conversations:). I fully realize the challenge in Ireland with regard to the religious element in schools, but I also think it gets overstated somewhat. In this day and age kids are exposed to almost every idea imaginable, as parents we just have to try and provide the most balanced guidance we can.

Every individual child develops differently depending on their personality and environment. I have a daughter who attended a secular public school from kindergarten to middle school (13) and is now in a private Catholic school (her choice). We have very interesting dinnertime conversations, and they get heated at times, but I am very proud of her as she doesn't follow the crowd when almost all of her friends have no interest at all in religion. There is zero possibility I would have predicted this outcome up to very recently, but looking back I realize it was my bias in thinking my child would turn out to have similar views to myself.

lazygal

Kiwi, at that age I really wouldn't worry about 'friends'. Children tend to be very flexible and they'll only have that bond because they happen to be in the same class rather than because of really deep bonds of friendship. Even older children don't remain friends just because they go to the same school, and often branch out. I remember keeping very few friends from the transition from primary to secondary because I realised the only thing we had in common was being in the same class rather than having a proper friendship. Same with secondary school, my closest friends, apart from one, are those I went to college with, once school was over people drifted.

Also, in larger schools there can be two or more of the same class, so close 'friends' from preschool/montessori can be in different classes anyway, which for a small child is akin to being in a different school. I don't think you're 'depriving' your child of friends, they'll learn to adapt, the same way they dealt with starting preschool without knowing a lot of the other pupils.

Obliq

Good points all round there Kiwi. If your kid goes to a school where he knows no one - give it a week, they'll be thick as thieves. 6 is quite a big number for a class in my local school, and they all get on great. However, how far away is the school? Are there others of your son's age living very nearby who are going to the Catholic school? Will he be left out of the local kid's games (when old enough to call in to friends on his own...) because they won't be hanging around with him in school? All these questions were in my head before I made the decision to send mine to the catholic school - but it was a nobrainer for me as the only school within a 40min drive that wasn't Catholic, was Steiner.

If you can't decide, the most obvious thing to do (IMO) is go and talk openly with the head of the catholic school. Ask what way it would go in class for your son. Ask about the extent of the emphasis on religious beliefs during the school day, or is it only taught during religion class? See whether there's virgin marys hanging in every class and bible quotes on the junior infants walls - see what the school ethos is like - it might make your mind up for you. Or did you do all that? Can't remember...

Bannasidhe

I couldn't get my fella into the COI school with all of his friends (who were ironically all Catholics) as it was full...of Catholics... so I had no choice but to send him to the local 'Catholic' NS where he knew not one person when he started.
He did go to secondary school with one of the Catholics who was the reason I tried to get him into the COI school in the first place.
Fast forward and these two grown men are nearly 30 and still absolutely best mates (think JD and Turk in Scrubs').

I can see where you are coming from Kiwi but to be honest, if I had had a chance to get him into a non-Catholic school I would have jumped at it. Even though son didn't participate in religion he still managed to soak up some distinctly Catholic BS as it was all around him and he did, at times, feel excluded from the wider school community plus far too much 'homework' time was spent discussing the latest bit of Catholic BS and not doing his actual homework.

Kiwi in IE

I asked Little Kiwi last evening. I had been keeping it from him that most of his class are going to a different school but I told him who was going and he now desperately wants to go there. They all live around here (walking/biking distance for later), where the COI school has a really large catchment area. They will all be in the same class as there is a combined junior and senior infants class (same in the COI). Most people are telling me not to worry about friends but I have a gut feeling that for my kid this is important.

I have been around all the schools. There are three which are equal distance (about 3 km). The 2 Catholic ones do have the open heart surgery/Mary statue bullsh*t. I am actually really stuck on this and can't settle to any decision.

Bannasidhe

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

I asked Little Kiwi last evening. I had been keeping it from him that most of his class are going to a different school but I told him who was going and he now desperately wants to go there. They all live around here (walking/biking distance for later), where the COI school has a really large catchment area. They will all be in the same class as there is a combined junior and senior infants class (same in the COI). Most people are telling me not to worry about friends but I have a gut feeling that for my kid this is important.

I have been around all the schools. There are three which are equal distance (about 3 km). The 2 Catholic ones do have the open heart surgery/Mary statue bullsh*t. I am actually really stuck on this and can't settle to any decision.

Go with your gut.

No matter what you do there will be pros and cons but as long as you know what the pros and cons are you are forewarned.

recedite

Its a real shame that kids are segregated by the actions of religious organisations at such an early age, and their parents pushed into such a dilemma.
Anyway whatever the outcome, you can rest assured that the rest of society is much more mixed now than it was a few decades ago. The kids of the same age from the various schools will keep bumping into each other at sports and other recreational activities.

Obliq

recedite wrote: »

Its a real shame that kids are segregated by the actions of religious organisations at such an early age, and their parents pushed into such a dilemma.
Anyway whatever the outcome, you can rest assured that the rest of society is much more mixed now than it was a few decades ago. The kids of the same age from the various schools will keep bumping into each other at sports and other recreational activities.

Yeah, but if you're in a small town they can be quite cliquey and it can be really important in an area where there aren't that many kids their age within reach, that arrangements to meet at weekends or go home after school with someone for an hour happen at school. I get the youngest arriving up to the car at 3.00 with another lad in tow, asking can they visit, and their parents are only living the other side of the village. If I'd sent my kids to the Steiner, with their massive catchment area, I could be driving for 1/2 hour each way to get the child afterwards.

All the same, my local NS is fab and probably unusual in that there aren't bleeding hearts and crucifixes everywhere. It's a nice small class size so my kids never felt excluded as they were a large percentage of their own class - maybe there would be a different story if they were the only one not participating out of 15 or 18?

Kiwi, I wouldn't like your decision - mine was much more clear cut. If I had it to do again, but the school was full of "god made the clouds" indoctrination, I don't know what I'd do tbh either. But if you feel you can deal with the type of consequences that Bann was highlighting, and that your kids' bs detector skills will develop at home regardless, the community inclusion they'll gain could be worth it. Jaysus, should have just butted out, I'm no help!

clairefontaine

I had no choice but to send my little one to a Catholic school. They didn't seem that crazy but I was still getting more questions about god than I was about simple equations. The rubber stamps on their foreheads at Ash Wednesday was just beyond comical.

So in order not to make his education too confusing, I would just tell him god is not that important, try to keep perspective. It's important that you are kind.

I can't tend crucifixes either. Early fetishising of pain and public execution.

If I had the choice I would have done COI or Steiner.

I used to be pretty tolerant of religion before I lived in Ireland. Now I hate it.

donspeekinglesh

I'd prefer a Catholic school to Steiner ones. At least the Catholics are up front about the crazy.

http://www.quackometer.net/blog/2012/11/what-every-parent-should-know-about-steiner-waldorf-schools.html

Dades

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

Six of the twelve in his class are going to the local Catholic school. The other six including him will be scattered around other schools. He is the only one going to the COI school. There are only six junior infants starting in the COI.

Kiwi, what is the reason you are sending him to the COI school? Is it solely because he won't be exposed to religious stuff? Or is it for academic reasons? 6 seems a very small amount in the class.

I've just gone through six months of agonising over schools. In the end, location and my (nominally catholic) wife's wishes have won out, and my daughter will be going to the national school around the corner with the kids she's been in Montessori with and who play with her and our son on our street every night. Both the women in my life are happier for it, and I just need to brush up on my anti-indoctrination tactics. I've taken one for the team basically.

You at least, can opt your son out of RE class, which, to my mind, counts for a lot. So unless there's compelling other reasons the COI school is winning out I'd be tempted to go with the bigger and more familiar option.

robindch

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

Most people are telling me not to worry about friends [...]

I had the same choice when my kid was leaving the Montessori school she'd been in for two years, which was either to stay there and graduate into the primary school that was in the same building, or else take up the offer of a place in the Educate Together up the road. In the end, we decided the nature and atmosphere of the school would influence her at least as much, and possibly more, than any friends and friendships she'd acquired earlier on. While possibly seeming heartless to point it out, a lot of early friendships are ephemeral affairs even with the firmest-seeming of friends.

In the end, we're happy we made the right decision. She made new friends within days and, today -- her last day in Senior Infants and about to enter first class; cue the smallest hint of a tear -- she's still running into the school every day with a big silly grin on her face, and that means a lot to mrs robindch, myself and Snowflake of course.

Bannasidhe

robindch wrote: »

I had the same choice when my kid was leaving the Montessori school she'd been in for two years, which was either to stay there and graduate into the primary school that was in the same building, or else take up the offer of a place in the Educate Together up the road. In the end, we decided the nature and atmosphere of the school would influence her at least as much, and possibly more, than any friends and friendships she'd acquired earlier on. While possibly seeming heartless to point it out, a lot of early friendships are ephemeral affairs even with the firmest-seeming of friends.

In the end, we're happy we made the right decision. She made new friends within days and, today -- her last day in Senior Infants and about to enter first class; cue the smallest hint of a tear -- she's still running into the school every day with a big silly grin on her face, and that means a lot to mrs robindch, myself and Snowflake of course.

Contrast that with Hermoine who is also about to enter first class and is already working herself up into a worry that she may have to make her communion and is sick to her back teeth of hearing about babyjebus and holymarymotherofgod to such an extent that she hates going to school and asks to do maths and science when she is with me or her Dad because she isn't getting enough time spent on those subjects (her favourites) at school. :mad:

Hotblack Desiato

Dades wrote: »

Kiwi, what is the reason you are sending him to the COI school? Is it solely because he won't be exposed to religious stuff? Or is it for academic reasons? 6 seems a very small amount in the class.

Presumably they double up (e.g. junior and senior infants together) like in my daughter's school - although the numbers entering each year would be more like 10 or 12 (and increasing.)

Both the women in my life are happier for it, and I just need to brush up on my anti-indoctrination tactics. I've taken one for the team basically.

Does this mean the full treatment - sacraments included?

You at least, can opt your son out of RE class, which, to my mind, counts for a lot. So unless there's compelling other reasons the COI school is winning out I'd be tempted to go with the bigger and more familiar option.

Lower pupil-teacher ratio and less time wasted on mumbo-jumbo can only be good things. You may or may not be able to opt your child out of RE in an RCC school, but if you do they'll be colouring or something, not being taught something useful during that time.

Mr_A

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

Thanks for the tips and advice. I have been into several schools around here and talked to teachers/principles, including the Protestant school. All play down the religious aspect as soon as you mention that you are not religious. I am not sure if this is a reflection of reality or just an attempt to sell the school. For example when I was showed around the Protestant school, I was told there is much less focus on religion than in the Catholic schools. To be fair if RCC schools spend 10% of class time on religion, there couldn't be any more anyway!

We get to the point where we think we have made a decision and then panic that it is the wrong one.

Been there. When we were looking at schools for my daughter the local Gael Scoil really played down their level of religiousness to the point you'd think they were only nominally a religious school. Although it's a good school and she loves it there, the representation was far from accurate.

For example, one year at the parent teacher meeting we mentioned that our little one was not being brought up with religion and the teacher clearly hadn't been told this, but dismissively pointed out that they did very little religion apart from bits here and there and prayers every morning, before lunch and before home time.

I don't think they were intentionally dishonest, I just think the perception of the norm is so immersed in RCC stuff that even when the school still spent a lot of time on the stuff they saw themselves as not being that into it.

We may be more relaxed about it now, but at the same time we lucked out in that she had a super cool teacher for 1st communion year. Our little one still felt a little sad and different from time to time, it could have been a lot worse though. Plus we went to Legoland the weekend of the communion which trumped the hell out of the idea of conforming just to go with the flow for her.

Kiwi in IE

Dades wrote: »

Kiwi, what is the reason you are sending him to the COI school?

We are not! I spent all day yesterday enrolling him in local NS where six of his Montessori class, who were crying and hugging each other along with parents and teacher on their last day today, are going.

Thanks so much for your help and advice guys. Would either have gone back to NZ or mad by now of I hadn't found A&A. Little Kiwi's dad and I are both psych nurses so well able to deal with delusion being presented as reality!

The Legoland idea is something we had thought of too Mr A. We were thinking Disneyland for the communion week.