Athiest Parents and Catholic/Protestant Schools

Obliq

Well done on taking a decision! My eldest got a trip to Limerick to see a film, some fast food (which he rarely gets, and hates now - sees it for the rubbish it is) and 20 euros (that he was overwhelmed with - never got "big money" before) off me and a few 5's off of parents who included him when they were handing over the obligatory envelopes at the school gates. Happy as a pig in sh*t. Don't bother going all out, and it was all forgotten within 2 months We didn't make a huge big deal of it, so neither did he.

The youngest couldn't be arsed with any of it, and although he got the cinema/day off/few quids, it all went straight over his head. Totally depends on the child to my mind...

Hotblack Desiato

Best of luck with it Kiwi.

Although there's probably generally less overt emphasis on religion in CoI schools, they're still religious ethos schools. Like RCC schools, a lot depends on the principal, teachers and views of the local priest/vicar and bishop. ET started out because a CoI school in Dalkey got an 'enthusiastic' new principal (from NI I believe...) who placed what the parents felt was an excessive emphasis on religion!

Edit: not sure where I heard the above, it may or may not be correct. The ET site naturally doesn't confirm or deny the above, but does say that the CoI school in question became concerned that its increasing non-protestant enrolment would dilute its ethos, and planned to restrict future entry to protestants only, which is why parents in the area set up the Dalkey School Project.


It needs to be watched in any type of school imho. But schools are going to have to get better at accommodating difference, because this isn't homogenous holy catholic Ireland any more and the number of non-religious and non-christian kids in schools is going to keep on increasing.

Kiwi in IE

Other parents did the same thing. 10 out of the 12 kids from Montessori are in his junior infants class. He had his first morning there today and was delighted with himself. He was so happy and confident and there was no bother when it was time for us to leave. He hardly noticed. I think we made the right decision and will just have to deal with the holymarymotherofgod cr*p as it arises. Which judging by the crucifixes, open heart surgery pictures and lovely statues decorating the place, will be sooner rather than later!

robindch

ninja900 wrote: »

ET started out because a CoI school in Dalkey got an 'enthusiastic' new principal (from NI I believe...) who placed what the parents felt was an excessive emphasis on religion!

Edit: not sure where I heard the above, it may or may not be correct. The ET site naturally doesn't confirm or deny the above, but does say that the CoI school in question became concerned that its increasing non-protestant enrolment would dilute its ethos, and planned to restrict future entry to protestants only, which is why parents in the area set up the Dalkey School Project.

Yes, I believe the DSP was set up by parents who'd run into a spot of bother at a protestant-controlled school in the Dalkey area.

If it's any consolation, I'm one of many people who's trying to convince one of the original parents to document what I suspect is the very interesting early history of the ET movement.

robindch

Gerhard Müller, the guy who's now Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (Ratzinger's old job), has said that the state "has the duty and responsibility" to indoctrinate children.

http://www.secularism.org.uk/news/2013/06/government-has-a-duty-to-provide-catholic-education-says-archbishop

Gerhard M&#252 wrote: »

Government has a “duty” to provide Catholic Education, says Archbishop

One of the Vatican's most senior clerics has used a visit to Scotland to reinforce the message that the provision of faith schools by the state is a fundamental right of Catholic families. Archbishop Gerhard Müller, the Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, made the statement at during a lecture at Glasgow University last week. He also drew attention to the "voices raised against" Catholic education.

The visit is seen as an indication of the Vatican's interest of the health of the Catholic Church in Scotland, which has been through one of the biggest crises in its history. It also comes just a week after Secular Scotland lodged a petition with the Scottish parliament asking for the law to be changed so that RE and religious observance in state schools are opt-in rather than opt-out.

Archbishop Müller will tell the audience: "For many decades, there have been voices raised against the idea of Catholic education, against the fact of distinct faith schools and increasingly, in today's society, there are great challenges to the very idea of a religious education."

Archbishop Müller accepted there were voices within the Church itself which questioned the need for separate Catholic education. But he added: "The State has the duty and responsibility to facilitate the wishes of Catholic parents to educate their children according to their desire to pass on their faith to their children." Terry Sanderson, president of the National Secular Society, said: "The Cardinal is obviously advocating for his own interests and those of his Church, but although most Human Rights charters guarantee parents the right to raise their children according to their own religion, no charter says that the state has a 'duty' or 'responsibility' to do the job for them or to use taxpayers' money to 'facilitate' it."

kylith

reinforce the message that the provision of faith schools by the state is a fundamental right of Catholic families

Red mists rising....

Dades

"The State has the duty and responsibility to facilitate the wishes of Catholic parents to educate their children according to their desire to pass on their faith to their children."

They say education begins at home. Except when you can farm it out to someone else so you don't miss pilates or golf.

Morag

Imagine the insurance costs if the RC churches were to be used at the weekends or during the week for religious instruction, sure they cant' be having that.

LashingLady

This drives me insane!! There is absolutely nothing stopping the Catholic Church from setting up a nice little cosy sunday school at their churches - it would be a win-win situations:

- parents who want to can go to mass
- If you want your kids to learn about god you can have it while you're at mass
- all the kids can go to school together without segregation, exclusion, difference, stress etc etc

This is the only solution! It accomodates everyone!

Then you have a catholic parent saying "it's my right to give my child a catholic education, you're proposing that is taken away from me!"

WTF?

What is a "catholic education" that you can't give at home and at Sunday school? Is there Catholic Maths? Catholic Irish? Catholic Geography?

WTF?

Is it my right to be able to send my child to school in the community without feeling different? Without having to argue with the teaching they get given "as fact"?

I say thank goodness for ET but really there shoudn't be any need for ET, it should all be Educate Together - we all live together, we're all fecking humans, I hate that kids are segregated as "CAtholic kids" or "atheist kids" - my kids not atheist, he just has atheist parents.....

eyescreamcone

LashingLady wrote: »

This drives me insane!! There is absolutely nothing stopping the Catholic Church from setting up a nice little cosy sunday school at their churches - it would be a win-win situations:

- parents who want to can go to mass
- If you want your kids to learn about god you can have it while you're at mass
- all the kids can go to school together without segregation, exclusion, difference, stress etc etc

This is the only solution! It accomodates everyone!

Then you have a catholic parent saying "it's my right to give my child a catholic education, you're proposing that is taken away from me!"

WTF?

What is a "catholic education" that you can't give at home and at Sunday school? Is there Catholic Maths? Catholic Irish? Catholic Geography?

WTF?

Is it my right to be able to send my child to school in the community without feeling different? Without having to argue with the teaching they get given "as fact"?

I say thank goodness for ET but really there shoudn't be any need for ET, it should all be Educate Together - we all live together, we're all fecking humans, I hate that kids are segregated as "CAtholic kids" or "atheist kids" - my kids not atheist, he just has atheist parents.....

If people want a catholic education for their children, how come they don't insist that third level courses include religious instruction?
3rd level is part of the education system too after all.

UCD Civil Engineering Timetable
9am Structural Mechanics
10am Geotechnical Engineering
11am Thermodynamics
12pm Transubstantiation 101

"Now you're just being silly" - I hear their replies.

"Well you fuppn started it, you muppets" - would be my reply... in this made up conversation.

Bannasidhe

eyescreamcone wrote: »

If people want a catholic education for their children, how come they don't insist that third level courses include religious instruction?
3rd level is part of the education system too after all.

UCD Civil Engineering Timetable
9am Structural Mechanics
10am Geotechnical Engineering
11am Thermodynamics
12pm Transubstantiation 101

"Now you're just being silly" - I hear their replies.

"Well you fuppn started it, you muppets" - would be my reply... in this made up conversation.

Well my experience of teaching 3rd level leads me to think that this 'Catholic' education is not even effective at teaching Catholicism.
Every year before I begin to lecture on the Reformation I have to explain RCC doctrine to the Catholics so that I can then explain Luther's issues with it and repeat over and over again that this is not what I believe - which is not relevant - but what the RCC stated is/was Catholic doctrine and what Luther believed was the problem or else we get complaints.

Colleague of mine who lectures on the Medieval church was put through the wringer by the parents of one student (a 20 year old man!) and accused of being anti-Catholic for discussing the activities of certain Popes.

eyescreamcone

Good old Luther.

If holy god is supposed to be omnipotent and omnipresent then why does he need to show off and turn a bisc-quit into himself???
Isn't he in the bis-quit ...and everything else already???

I know you've got to put on a show and entertain the masses, but it doesn't add up to me.

Maybe I'll find out at the 12pm lecture

I'm especially looking forward to this afternoons practical "Prayers that help bridges to keep standing, 101"

Bannasidhe

eyescreamcone wrote: »

I'm especially looking forward to this afternoons practical "Prayers that help bridges to keep standing, 101"

I've heard about that one - it's a humdinger.

eyescreamcone

Fluid Mechanics should also be interesting lecture - with little anecdotes about how Mr. Moses and Mr. J Christ were able to deviate away from commonly known principles.

kylith

LashingLady wrote: »

T Is there Catholic Maths? Catholic Irish? Catholic Geography?

Lol, 2+2=5 because God says so, and Rome is the centre of the universe.

Irish is already quite Catholic; the only form of address I was taught was Dia Dhuit.

robindch

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Well my experience of teaching 3rd level leads me to think that this 'Catholic' education is not even effective at teaching Catholicism.

Probably because "catholic education" isn't intended to get people to believe ideas. On the contrary, kids are indoctrinated in order to convince them that the priesthood and the church are necessary.

And seeing the number of people still going to church here, not to mention the thousands of people obediently lining up their kids for, uh, "communion" with priests, it's hard not to admire that the church has managed to do exactly that.

Gbear

robindch wrote: »

Probably because "catholic education" isn't intended to get people to believe ideas. On the contrary, kids are indoctrinated in order to convince them that the priesthood and the church are necessary.

Indeed.
I'd say that the church is acutely aware that if they did teach what the bible actually says people what leave in droves because it's such a load of misogynistic, cruel, ignorant bollocks.

Of course that makes protestant congregations where they do learn all that ****e all the more puzzling.

Sarky

kylith wrote: »

Irish is already quite Catholic; the only form of address I was taught was Dia Dhuit.

I hate Padraic O'Chonaire and everything he stands for. Stupid whiny alcoholic bitchface, with his "Tetrarch of Galilee" and his blaming everyone but himself for his misery.

kylith

Sarky wrote: »

I hate Padraic O'Chonaire and everything he stands for. Stupid whiny alcoholic bitchface, with his "Tetrarch of Galilee" and his blaming everyone but himself for his misery.

I have no idea what or who you're talking about but.... right on, Brother!

Sarky

Required reading back when I was doing honours Irish for the leaving. He was lauded as a visionary and amazingly talented writer. Mostly he came across as a miserable overly-religious alcoholic.

robindch

Sarky wrote: »

Required reading back when I was doing honours Irish for the leaving. He was lauded as a visionary and amazingly talented writer. Mostly he came across as a miserable overly-religious alcoholic.

Among the few things I still recall of the Irish poetry I studied in school, are O'Chonaire's name, the unsurpassed length and specific gravity of the words, the unforgivable lapses into ethic nationalism (Gaelic, of course), the odor of sanctity and sanctimoniousness that pervaded everything, and worst, the dreadful, pedantic humorlessness of it all.

It was only years later that I got around to reading Cúirt An Mheán Oíche and An Béal Bocht, both blackly satirical, both hilarious, and both in English of course

Lingua Franca

I just got word today that one of my children has been accepted into catholic school. Thankfully this is in the Netherlands and the emphasis is on school rather than catholic. No baptism cert required, no crucifixes in the classroom and a nice mix of christian, muslim, hindu and godless children.

I never would have believed I'd send a child of mine to catholic school after suffering through convent schools myself.

Hotblack Desiato

'nuff said.

Bannasidhe

ninja900 wrote: »

'nuff said.

I really liked Peig. I thought she was funny.





I'll get me coat...

Banbh

My 11-year-old had an interesting observation on education in the local Catholic school (where he is one of a handful of non-religious kids): "Maths is the only subject without opinions."