camera club discussion

secman

Just getting back into photography after a long absence, joined a camera club at the turn of the year and have to say my initial reaction is one of " my bubble has been burst". The last 2 meetings were exclusively about "photoshopping" and I just felt deflated coming out of the meetings !

Was this your immediate reaction too at first ? It just all seems too contrived.... what's real anymore ? .......

I know I am speaking to the converted here. justing looking for feedback on this, enlighten me !

Thanks


Secman

DaireQuinlan

secman wrote: »

Just getting back into photography after a long absence, joined a camera club at the turn of the year and have to say my initial reaction is one of " my bubble has been burst". The last 2 meetings were exclusively about "photoshopping" and I just felt deflated coming out of the meetings !

Was this your immediate reaction too at first ? It just all seems too contrived.... what's real anymore ? .......

I know I am speaking to the converted here. justing looking for feedback on this, enlighten me !

I'm puzzled as to why you posted this into a thread about some photoshop technique ?

If you're genuinely concerned and want a discussion about it maybe it might warrant a thread of its own ? I.E. Preoccupational hazards of camera club membership, the nature of artifice versus reality and so on and so forth.

secman

DaireQuinlan wrote: »

I'm puzzled as to why you posted this into a thread about some photoshop technique ?

If you're genuinely concerned and want a discussion about it maybe it might warrant a thread of its own ? I.E. Preoccupational hazards of camera club membership, the nature of artifice versus reality and so on and so forth.

Point taken.

Secman

dirtyghettokid

made a new thread with these posts. wasn't sure what to call it -- if you think of a better title, let me know & i can change it

AnCatDubh

secman wrote: »

I know I am speaking to the converted here

I think you'll probably find there's a healthy *love* of photoshop around these parts too.

Maybe we should do a poll or something - i'd guess 60/40 split in favour of the photoshop approach.

I don't think there's anything wrong with it per se, but i do think some can go overboard with it, and it should never become about the photoshop latest action or set of actions which you download. There's also nothing wrong with that, but just that your camera club should be what it says on the tin.

Not sure which club but perhaps its suffering a bit from "*yawn*oh, what will we do today *yawn*", and "ah, *yawn* another bit of photoshop would go down *yawn* nicely". I think you should be a rebel and suggest a photo walk - perhaps that'd be a novel idea.

By the way did you see the latest photoshop tutorial on youtube where you don't actually have to press the shutter release at all.... eh? eh? eh?

bullpost

Two sessions in the middle of winter is I'm guessing hardly representative of the club. Sounds a bit like you had preconceived ideas about this and are simply looking for affirmation?

Where are you based?

5uspect

Even though I am something of a Photoshop lover, (image analysis and machine vision in general actually ) I do very little to my photography other than minor adjustments in Camera RAW, maybe a B&W conversion, some noise reduction or a lens correction.

I think excessive photoshoppage is probably a phase a lot of people go through when they discover the power of an editor like Photoshop. It's a relatively easy program to use and get dramatic results from quickly People just want to try out everything and they can go overboard.

Since photography is becoming more and more of a 'techie' hobby (I can't deny this includes me) then you're going to see more of this behaviour. Hopefully we can persuade people to put the Content Aware HDR tilt shift action away and concentrate on the actual photography for a bit.

Ben D Bus

I joined Dublin Camera Club a couple of weeks ago.

The two meetings I've attended have been judging of competition entries, both of which I've found interesting.

But I'm sure there will be something relating to post-processing somewhere in the years schedule.

And tonight I attended the first session of the clubs photography course. Very basic as I've been using my camera for over a year. But there is plenty more to come, and for only an extra 30-odd quid on top of membership I'm happy.

So my personal camera club experience is a case of so far so good. But it is only 2 weeks in and also I have no other experience to compare against.

Given the title of the thread it would be very interesting to hear views on the goings-on in various clubs around the country, and indeed the world.

secman

bullpost wrote: »

Two sessions in the middle of winter is I'm guessing hardly representative of the club. Sounds a bit like you had preconceived ideas about this and are simply looking for affirmation?

Where are you based?

Prefer not to say at the moment, as you say its mid winter and my expectations were way off, because the 3 meetings thus far were all presentations and mainly on photo shop , i have hardly had a conversation with anyone . Looking forward to the longer evenings when camera shoots are planned .

Secman

Adrian.Sadlier

Ben D Bus wrote: »

I joined Dublin Camera Club a couple of weeks ago.

The two meetings I've attended have been judging of competition entries, both of which I've found interesting.

But I'm sure there will be something relating to post-processing somewhere in the years schedule.

And tonight I attended the first session of the clubs photography course. Very basic as I've been using my camera for over a year. But there is plenty more to come, and for only an extra 30-odd quid on top of membership I'm happy.

So my personal camera club experience is a case of so far so good. But it is only 2 weeks in and also I have no other experience to compare against.

Given the title of the thread it would be very interesting to hear views on the goings-on in various clubs around the country, and indeed the world.

Glad you enjoyed it so far Ben D Bus. Next week the session is on printing - that is usually quite an interesting subject - and something a lot of us need a bit of help on :-)

We rarely do sessions on Photoshop - they would normally be done as separate workshops outside of the normal meeting cycle. I believe there is a basic one going on in Rua Red this weekend.

Sometimes we will get a guest photographer/speaker who has expertise in specific techniques/styles. They will give a presentation on their work/style during the normal meeting and may then have a workshop at the weekend. This would happen maybe 2/3 times a year and usually get very good feedback.

I haven't gone on any and you can usually tell who has from the stlye of shots entered into the next competition ;-).

As ours is a big club (in numbers) there are a few different interest groups with interest such as street/reportage which have meetings of their own.

You get out of the club what you put into it!

brokenarms

After a few years trying to take pics, im going to my first meeting next week.

Im scared to ask, but does everyone bring their gear and just twiddle with buttons all night or will it be conversations about how to take a better picture.

Im doubtful about going. . Or maybe im shy.

Adrian.Sadlier

brokenarms wrote: »

After a few years trying to take pics, im going to my first meeting next week.

Im scared to ask, but does everyone bring their gear and just twiddle with buttons all night or will it be conversations about how to take a better picture.

Im doubtful about going. . Or maybe im shy.

Don't know about other clubs but nobody really brings their gear to DCC meetings unless its a workshop or photo walk. The only thing I bring is my new "toy" - an iPad retina - so I can bore people in HD.

You don't have to talk unless you want to -you can sit, look,listen and talk whenever you feel you want to. Come along any Tuesday night at 8.00. If you like what you see, stay and introduce yourself. If not, then leave without any worries or obligation.
Adrian

pixbyjohn

Greystones Camera Club was founded in July 2011 when a small group of people met up in a local pub after we had posted on the Greystones forum of Boards.ie. We met up in the pub every Thursday night until after Christmas 2011. More and more people joined the meetings so a committee was formed and it was decided to look for a premises to rent in the area. We were very lucky to find an ideal premises locally ( Hillside Evangelical Hall ) which is bright, warm and has room for very large gatherings. A full kitchen, a large lecture hall, a super large room for workshops etc. and immaculate toilet facilities. During 2012 we capped our membership at 50 members and had a regular attendance of circa 35 every week.
Our activities are as follows : Regular workshops both practical and theory. Our practical ones have included Studio shoots in the club with studio lights and off camera flash using flashguns and remote triggers, Water drop photography, cross polarisation photography, Macro and product photography as well as several nights where everyone brings their equipment for others to see and use. We have regular visitors giving talks and judging some of our competition entries.Sensor cleaning night. We have Photoshop other photo manipulation software tutorials. We also have several outings during the winter and summer months, some on club nights as well as during the week/weekends. In October members went on a weekend to Bantry, West Cork and in April another weekend away is planned for Bunbeg, Co.Donegal. We had a party at Christmas with presentation of awards for our forthnightly photo competitions. We had a tables quiz and lots to eat and drink also on the night. When the club reopened after Christmas we had 17 new people attend for the first time so it has been decided to open the membership to cater for this. I hope I haven't bored anyone but thats what we do at our club. I am sure I have left out some activities too. ooh we had a photo exhibition before Christmas with 50 photos mounted and displayed.

fret_wimp2

I absolutely love photoshop, il openly admit it. I use it on virtually every photo i deem good enough to show to someone.

But, and here's my big stipulation, I only ever use it to enhance what was already in the photo.

99% of my photoshop work is:
bit of sharpening
white balance adjustment
contrast & brightness
exposure
Panoramas

I will occasionally use it to clone out a piece of rubbish or a dust smudge on my lens or something.

Stuff that I could, and do strive to get right in camera.except for the panoramas!)

Basically , apart from cloning out small imperfections, i use photoshop to allow me to do things film photographers were doing anyway in a manual fashon.

When it comes to garish HDR, putting objects in photos that were not there etc, I draw the line.

Get it right in camera. Use photoshop to fix the little things you couldnt get correct in camera and strive to do better next time.

DaireQuinlan

fret_wimp2 wrote: »

I absolutely love photoshop, il openly admit it. I use it on virtually every photo i deem good enough to show to someone.

But, and here's my big stipulation, I only ever use it to enhance what was already in the photo.

(emphasis mine)

I will occasionally use it to clone out a piece of rubbish

Contradictory.

And if you think it's relatively minor, have you read http://www.petapixel.com/2013/01/10/crop-dont-shop-how-one-photog-has-winning-nat-geo-contest-photo-dqed/ ? That guy just removed 'a piece of rubbish' as well

I've no problem with people using PS to do whatever they want to do with their shots, but don't claim something that's not true. Either you fundamentally alter the scene or you don't. In this regard there isn't much of a grey area.

melekalikimaka

wouldnt be keen on photoshop myself, but getting into deabtes about it splits groups up and its not worth it, I dont like it but i accept people do and keep quiet about it

Splinters

I think it very much depends on what the photo is trying to achieve. Im not a photojournalist and have no interest in how much the end product reflects reality so happily use Lightroom and Photoshop on most images I take, well the keepers anyway.

melekalikimaka

Splinters wrote: »

I think it very much depends on what the photo is trying to achieve. Im not a photojournalist and have no interest in how much the end product reflects reality so happily use Lightroom and Photoshop on most images I take, well the keepers anyway.

it can become a ridiculous debate if you're not careful over photo/digital image bla bla. true to the art form bla bla. you're not a real tog/ you're stuck in the past sorta tog bla bla.

tiresome round in circles

different strokes for different folks.

both usually firmly dug into their trenches.

brokenarms

Would this not be a case of say.
A plumber who refuses to use his brown adjustable spanner . Because .. Its not a proper spanner.

Would Photo shop not be considered to be a essential tool in any digital photographers tool box.
I mean whats the difference in altering your white balance on your camera and being up tight about doing it on PS.

Its basically the exact same thing. You are digitally adjusting you image either way.

pixbyjohn

If you shoot in RAW or shoot film don't you have to use some form of image manipulation be it in Software for digital or in the darkroom for film?

Ben D Bus

brokenarms wrote: »

Would this not be a case of say.
A plumber who refuses to use his brown adjustable spanner . Because .. Its not a proper spanner.

Provided the plumber uses the brown adjustable spanner wisely to achieve a desired result and doesn't just swing it wildly at the target in the hope of fixing the leak then it's fine.

LeoB

pixbyjohn wrote: »

Greystones Camera Club was founded in July 2011 .

Sounds a very good club John and continued good luck with it.


I see where the op is coming from. I know of one group who use Photoshop for just about everything and this would put me off big time.

Our Camera group, Rush Library Camera Group was founded in late 2010 to coincide with the opening of the new Rush Library.

We were all new to photography when we started our group. I done agenda with Librarian and away we went. We had about 23 at our first meeting and our numbers have remained over 20 ever since.We had 3 new members tonight and I suppose now we have about 30 members. One of our first decisions was no one would be left with the task of running the group it would be shared among our members. Myself and another co founder had been chairmen of local G.A.A club which was practically a full time job and we were not going down that road again. We dont have a committee but we do have someone who looks after after emails, texts and notifications, we have someone to host each meeting and if I want someone on the agenda I email the host or call them and they will put my topic on the agenda. We all take turns and I feel everyone feels more affiliated to our group. This has worked very well for us so far and no reason why it wont continue to work. We base a lot of of what we do on helping each other as much as we can and I would not hesitate we have all considerably improved our ability.

Last year we put in place 4 three month plans and stuck to this as much as we could and it worked well as it gave us with families time to plan our days out. We had a weekend in Ballycastle Co Antrim and an outing at least every 2 weeks all year. We meet on the Thursday after each outing and we bring photos on USB and from there people tell us what they were trying to achieve and they get feedback from everyone in the group. We hired boats to take us around Bailey and Irelands eye and had a very successful exhibition. This year we have a number of things planned, studio shoot, people coming in to talk to us and a number of outings. We briefly touched on Lightroom last year and a few members use it. This year we have 2 sessions planned with Lightroom, people coming in to advise us on a few topics and after tonight one chap has to organize a special trip for May.We are heading West for a weekend at end of April. We have a photo challenge every month the winner of which decides the topic for the next challenge. Every outing ends in a coffee shop.

This model has worked well so far.

mathepac

pixbyjohn wrote: »

If you shoot in RAW or shoot film don't you have to use some form of image manipulation be it in Software for digital or in the darkroom for film?

I think you have hit the nail on the head.

Photography has always been about the art & craft of image making and image manipulation. In the past the manipulation was done in the darkroom through experimenting with exposures and development and fixing techniques, cropping, burning in, making physical photomontages, combining images, etc. This stuff is all done in Photoshop/GIMP/Snapheal now, the digital age's dark-rooms.

Personally I see no conflict in including digital image-maipulation techniques and software within the realm of "painting with light"; anyone who sees it differently is missing out on half the fun and creative opportunity IMHO.

pixbyjohn

Thanks Leo for the info on your group, sounds great and like ourselves in Greystones long may it last. We have a break halfway through the night where tea and coffeee are served plus bikkies and sometimes cake.
Our yearly sub is 30 euro and 3 euro per night on the door.

fret_wimp2

DaireQuinlan wrote: »

(emphasis mine)

Either you fundamentally alter the scene or you don't. In this regard there isn't much of a grey area.

matter of opinion mate. even if Nat Geo envorce it, thats just their opinion.

if i have 18mp image( super big) of a large field of crops, with mountains in background and perfect sky, and i clone out a piece of rubbish about 100 pixels square, i dont see it as compromising the image to remove the piece of rubbish.

DaireQuinlan

fret_wimp2 wrote: »

matter of opinion mate. even if Nat Geo envorce it, thats just their opinion.

if i have 18mp image( super big) of a large field of crops, with mountains in background and perfect sky, and i clone out a piece of rubbish about 100 pixels square, i dont see it as compromising the image to remove the piece of rubbish.

Which is entirely your prerogative, I don't have any problem with people doing whatever they want with their images, so long as they're not misrepresenting them. And removing an element from the image is fundamentally altering it, there's no 'opinion' there, it's just a fact. You haven't used PS to 'enhance what was already in the photo' you have essentially created a new image that is derived from the original photograph.

Splinters

DaireQuinlan wrote: »

Which is entirely your prerogative, I don't have any problem with people doing whatever they want with their images, so long as they're not misrepresenting them. And removing an element from the image is fundamentally altering it, there's no 'opinion' there, it's just a fact. You haven't used PS to 'enhance what was already in the photo' you have essentially created a new image that is derived from the original photograph.

I would actually agree with that, but at the same time I would also be inclined to say so what? If photojournalism is your thing and you want an accurate representation of what happened in that moment then thats absolutely fine. But I do believe most photographers are more interested in getting a good end result.

We can all draw our own lines as to what level of photoshopping is acceptable. Personally for me, its that the image doesnt look photoshopped, at least to an untrained eye but I would have no issue whatsoever in removing a piece of rubbish, a spot or any other element I personally didnt want to appear in the image. Obviously every effort should be made to get it right in the camera but sometimes its simply not practical (or possible) to have everything perfect.

Ive seen some people go to town on it and apply awful looking HDR type presets on everything. Its not my thing, but if the photographer is happy with it then so be it.

Snowie

Photo shop I will agree that some times things are a little rich with in over processing how ever, i do think it has its place if your shooting in raw.. Some images need a little brightening others need a bit more its the way it is, I don't think its necessarily a bad thing..

Being able to pull a little more out of a pictures is hardly a crime..

melekalikimaka

fret_wimp2 wrote: »

matter of opinion mate. even if Nat Geo envorce it, thats just their opinion.

if i have 18mp image( super big) of a large field of crops, with mountains in background and perfect sky, and i clone out a piece of rubbish about 100 pixels square, i dont see it as compromising the image to remove the piece of rubbish.

see it is opinion, i'd be with Daire, you dont see it as compromising the image, but you have changed the image for purpose of altering the viewers perception through manipulating a photograph. of course theres the arguement all images are manipulated by the photographer through framing etc. but I personally think any more than darkroom techniques, basic darkroom techniques is a no no, for me anyway.

Ben D Bus

melekalikimaka wrote: »

you have changed the image for purpose of altering the viewers perception through manipulating a photograph.

But what's wrong with that, given that your choice of composition or studio lighting has the same effect?

I know, I know, everyone has a different viewpoint on this.

I prefer light touch editing, but I've removed the odd bit of rubbish, and cloned away an occasional pimple or stray hair from a models face. Partly because in my view that gives a fairer representation of the reality in broader terms. Particularly the removal of transient items such as those I described.

Splinters

melekalikimaka wrote: »

you have changed the image for purpose of altering the viewers perception through manipulating a photograph. of course theres the arguement all images are manipulated by the photographer through framing etc. but I personally think any more than darkroom techniques, basic darkroom techniques is a no no, for me anyway.

I just find it odd where some people draw the line. Even leaving all PP aside, if I shoot a subject close up at f1.2 or f1.4 and completely blur out the background beyond recognition the photo may well look great and the subject will really pop out....but it didnt look like that in reality. Im already using technology in my lens and camera to greatly enhance the subject, far beyond what it looked like to the human eye.

Out of curiosity, would the same people who would have an issue with removing a piece of rubbish or any other item from an image take the same view with removing noticable sensor dust?

melekalikimaka

Ben D Bus wrote: »

But what's wrong with that, given that your choice of composition or studio lighting has the same effect?

I know, I know, everyone has a different viewpoint on this.

I prefer light touch editing, but I've removed the odd bit of rubbish, and cloned away an occasional pimple or stray hair from a models face. Partly because in my view that gives a fairer representation of the reality in broader terms. Particularly the removal of transient items such as those I described.

nothing wrong with it at all, different strokes. Some people feel photography is taking a photo and printing it and thats it anything else is moving away from photography. Its all taste I suppose.

DaireQuinlan

Splinters wrote: »

Out of curiosity, would the same people who would have an issue with removing a piece of rubbish or any other item from an image take the same view with removing noticable sensor dust?

No, in much the same way as when I scan a roll of film I'll go over each frame and spot them, remove hairs etc etc. They're artifacts of the capturing process, not part of the scene. And again, I'd like to repeat that I don't have an issue with someone doing whatever they want with their images, merely misrepresenting them as being unaltered in a fundamental sense when they most certainly have been.

It's that 'fundamental sense' I think that's relatively clear. Removing elements from the scene that are present in the original shot. Adding elements TO the scene that aren't in the original shot. Moving elements. I'd go as far generally as to say that local contrast or brightness adjustments that are sufficient to overwhelmingly emphasise or erase existing elements of the scene would result in a fundamental change. It's a more editorial approach to photography which I personally would adhere to though, as I point out above, different strokes for different folks is all good with me.

Splinters

I couldnt argue with that anyway. As much as I have no issue with photoshopping an image to whatever point I feel is needed, Id never try to pass it off as out of camera or unaltered.

bigjoe

I know this thread is now talking more about Photoshop and the merits but as the title is about Camera Clubs here is what I will add on that front.

I can only talk about our club but we try to offer as much as we can. We meet every Wednesday, with a competition every last Wednesday of the month. We also run two outings per month at weekends and a number of away trips per year. At the moment we are running a basic course, free to all our members.

With this number of get-together’s, it is very difficult to fill and organize a program. We have instruction evenings (practical & post processing), guest speakers, member’s galleries and evenings out shooting once in a while. We try to mix it up as much as we can and we are lucky to have some very experienced photographers that are willing to share their knowledge.

Not every night will suit all members but you can’t please all the people all the time.

Here is our club website were you can see our activities and a program of events. http://stbrigidsphotogroup.blogspot.ie/

Mr Yunioshi

Daire, yours is one definition of "fundamental"; there are others.

John, all images are manipulated, including JPEGS. It's just a question of degree, intent and representation - none of which is easy to discern or define.

Clubs are great for fostering enthusiasm for photography and for socialising with like-minded folk. I believe the better info exchange takes place away from screen-based tutorials.

secman

Very enjoyable club meeting last night. A competition night, the judge gave very good insightful info on his markings. Nice to see the works of the members .

Secman

Thin White Duck

The key to a good club programme is variety, and variety that is in tune with its members. We survey our membership every year or so to gauge members' interests and also hold more frequent feedback sessions where we can assess how the programme is being received.

There can be an over-reliance in clubs on technical aspects or talks or competitions and each has its merits but it's important to realise that most people join a club to improve their photography. This can't be achieved in the clubhouse alone and members invariably benefit from active participation in outings with like-minded people and mentoring programmes.

Typically, clubs will contain a broad cross-section of ages, abilities and experience. Each of these needs to be catered for to maintain interest and involvement. It's a difficult line to walk and a committee engaged with its membership is vital to the success of any club.

calnand

I joined the Cork camera group this year and I went to a good few meetings before Christmas, but nowadays I'm barely attending. I think it may have something to do with the fact I'm about half the age of most people there, and I know it should be of a huge advantage to me to have so many people with years of experience, but this age gap is a huge off-put to me. Its nice to have more people my own age attend, hopefully I can convince a few friends of mine to go next year. Also I'm treasurer of the UCC photo society and we mainly just hold workshops and outings but the main thing I loved in the CCG was the monthly competition, and its something the UCC society couldn't out in place due to the cost of printing photos every month.

secman

The camara club had a guest speaker last night showing his works. Almost all B&W and all film, mostly city scapes around old streets in dublin and some Phoenix park ones. The most amazing fact was that 70% of shots were from a plastic €20 chinese camera ! with one stop F8 and one speed 1/125 . All those shots had a centre square in focus and then softened outwards. He even highlighted the vignettes for more effect. Interesting stuff, think the camera is called a "Holga"



Secman

Ps the Holga got me thinking about the old "Diana" camera from yonks ago.............. showing my age here now.......

DaireQuinlan

Was it Eddie Mallin ? https://www.flickr.com/photos/dubpics/

secman

It was indeed Eddie Mallin, nice guy too, don't think he has delved into Digital yet. Had some pin hole pics on display too. very abstract stuff. The softness in the photos add to them, he's obviously trying to age modern shots and does too with good effect.

Secman