RE: North Korea conducts long range nuclear test

CollardGreens

I got this article from the Jan Morgan website sent to me. I hadn't heard about this until now. If a link is needed I can get it. As it says in the end, they can't hit us but the fact they are playing around with this isn't a fun thought. My main concern with them or any country that is shooting nukes is our power grid getting knocked out, that will (IMO) do more damage than if they actually hit a city.


JMM news / by Jan Morgan / on January 24, 2013 at 12:35 pm /


North Korea warned today it plans to conduct more long-range rocket launches and carry out a “high-level” nuclear test targeted at the United States in response to a U.N. Security Council resolution condemning its December rocket launch and expanding sanctions.
The National Defense Commission, North Korea’s top military body, denounced Tuesday’s U.N. resolution to censure and sanction the regime for conducting missile activity that violates U.N. rules, according to a Reuters report.
The commission reaffirmed in its declaration that December’s rocket launch was a peaceful bid to send a satellite into space, but also said the country’s rocket launches have a military purpose: to strike and attack the United States.
“We do not hide that a variety of satellites and long-range rockets which will be launched by the DPRK one after another and a nuclear test of higher level which will be carried out by it in the upcoming all-out action, a new phase of the anti-U.S. struggle that has lasted century after century, will target against the U.S., the sworn enemy of the Korean people,” the commission said, referring to North Korea by its official name, the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea.
“Settling accounts with the U.S. needs to be done with force, not with words, as it regards jungle law as the rule of its survival,” the commission added.
The U.S. State Department had no immediate response to Thursday’s statement. Shortly before the commission issued its declaration, U.S. envoy on North Korea Glyn Davies urged Pyongyang not to explode an atomic device.
“Whether North Korea tests or not, it’s up to North Korea. We hope they don’t do it. We call on them not to do it,” he told reporters in Seoul after meeting with South Korean officials. “It will be a mistake and a missed opportunity if they were to do it.”
Davies said that if North Korea begins “to take concrete steps to indicate their interest in returning to diplomacy, they may find in their negotiating partners willing partners in that process.”
While experts say North Korea doesn’t have the capability to hit the U.S. with its missiles, recent tests and rhetoric indicate the country is feverishly working toward that goal.

Black Swan

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CollardGreens please read the charter regarding:

Dr Galen wrote: »

This forum is not a newsdump, blog or somewhere to post copy & pastes from other sites.

murraykil

The USA, while Bush was in charge anyway, threatened North Korea and put them in the axis of evil. Since then the USA have been distracted elsewhere and Iran seems to be their next most likely target should they expand their war.

While this may be North Korea attempting to appear strong, it seems to be a crazy move on their part. The USA have bombed countries for far less!

Either the North Koreans are on a suicide mission, or it's just part of a long term plan to appear strong so that they can appear to negotiate a settlement with the USA and thus tell their people that they scared the USA and made them back down.

They might be able to negotiate access to NetFlix for Kim Jong while they're at it! :pac:

Jonny7

It's heavy posturing. This is NK "speaking" and "negotiating" with neighbours and the world via their own language of increasing threats and subsequent climbdowns.

The dynasty and upper echelons feel their decadent lifestyles might be affected so they wave a big stick.

Be like Nutella

It is worrying though I must admit. North Korea is such a strange situation I just feel bad for the delusional population there it's a horrible and depressing island of complete insanity. I don't know what can be done but I know that simply leaving them to their devices and allowing the lunatics in charge to continue to develop half asses long range missiles and nuclear tech decades behind the curve is dangerous. Eventually they're going to do a test or fire a missile which really p1sses off the US and becomes a serious issue. Right now they are so isolated and crap at what they are trying to develop the US has been publicly ignoring them and trying their best to treat them as a rational actor through sanctions - carrot and stick containment. But sooner or later somethings gotta give. Their population can't rise up - they're all completely insanely brain washed poor feckers and China is completely embarrassed by the lunacy of their leadership but have to back them to a degree because it's part of their buffer zone/hinterland and its a chip in the game against the US... China's future military competitor (don't tell me they're a military competitor now because they're not)

North Korea is on the long finger for now but more shapes by its bonkers leadership like this is going to elicit a REAL response from a very busy per-occupied US.

Patience is usually the way to go but North Korea is really out there on their own - there's never been anything like it. There is virtually nothing known about the state of N.Korea internally. In the last 10 years there has been only 1 or 2 documentaries who have gained access to N.Korea in any real way and it is very disturbing to watch how they live and how they think as a result of generations of straight forward societal brainwashing.

I'll try n find that doc about the eye surgeon treating glycoma who gained decent access with cameras - really really weird sh1t. Has to be seen to be believed. That entire country needs freeing and rebooting from scratch and every one of its leaders locked up. It's so fuked up there You couldn't make it up as a bad fictional writer.

here it is:

Dr. Sanduk Ruit Part 1-5 National Geographic Undercover in North Korea

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQXfMMHV8FM

The most disturbing part for me is Part 5 at the end which shows how brainwashed the people are.

"Everyone is trained form birth to love the dear leader...."

Iran is not the same thing at all
holy crap you do not want North Korea with a fully developed long range nuclear missile force!

Victor

CollardGreens wrote: »

RE: North Korea conducts long range nuclear test

Oh really?

When did the test happen?

Was it at long range and weaponised, that is a nuclear device went off at a long distance from Korea, as you have said in your thread title?

murraykil

I found an article which describes what they did last year, launch a 'weather satellite' with a rocket similar to ones which could carry a nuclear war-head.

This week, however, Pyongyang, made it clear that one goal of its rocket program is to attack the United States.

But its ability to do so is limited, say experts who believe North Korea still has technological kinks to work out in its nuclear devices. It is thought to be unable to make a nuclear weapon small enough to be mounted on a missile, so it needs to test that technology as well.

It is believed to have enough weapons-grade plutonium for about four to eight bombs, according to nuclear scientist Siegfried Hecker, who visited North Korea’s nuclear complex in 2010. And in 2009, Pyongyang also declared that it would begin enriching uranium, giving it a second way to make atomic weapons.

National Post

From that full article it seems that North Korea want to be feared, respected but also possibly accepted by the west. They are torn between what seems to be genuine hate for the west and the need for lifting of restrictions.

But it's a society without any real hope. Those in higher status have created such a status quo that internally the country is never likely to change.

It has removed the word 'communism' from it's constitution and while it calls itself the Democratic People's Republic of Korea, it is of course a totalitarian political system and maybe the most extreme form of skewed 'communism' in history.

Of all the countries ever to fall under communism, I think that North Korea seems to be the only one with no hope of ever coming out of communism through internal change alone.

MadYaker

So there has been direct confirmation by the DPRK that one of the goals of their missile program is to launch a nuclear attack on the US??? What was the US govs response to this? They have invaded countries for a lot less. I'm guessing that since the US hasn't taken any direct action, as far as I know, to prevent the DPRK from achieving this goal they think that the DPRK lack the technical know how or resources to actually make this happen. Or else its all just posturing and then have no intention of actually carrying out such a strike.

Victor

MadYaker wrote: »

So there has been direct confirmation by the DPRK that one of the goals of their missile program is to launch a nuclear attack on the US???

Is this a statement or a question?

Perhaps they want to be capable of "launch[ing] a nuclear attack on the US", not that they will "launch a nuclear attack on the US".

You do realise the USA is already capable of a nuclear attack on the DPRK and has previously threatened such an attack?

asherbassad

Be like Nutella wrote: »

It is worrying though I must admit. North Korea is such a strange situation I just feel bad for the delusional population there it's a horrible and depressing island of complete insanity. I don't know what can be done but I know that simply leaving them to their devices and allowing the lunatics in charge to continue to develop half asses long range missiles and nuclear tech decades behind the curve is dangerous. Eventually they're going to do a test or fire a missile which really p1sses off the US and becomes a serious issue. Right now they are so isolated and crap at what they are trying to develop the US has been publicly ignoring them and trying their best to treat them as a rational actor through sanctions - carrot and stick containment. But sooner or later somethings gotta give. Their population can't rise up - they're all completely insanely brain washed poor feckers and China is completely embarrassed by the lunacy of their leadership but have to back them to a degree because it's part of their buffer zone/hinterland and its a chip in the game against the US... China's future military competitor (don't tell me they're a military competitor now because they're not)

North Korea is on the long finger for now but more shapes by its bonkers leadership like this is going to elicit a REAL response from a very busy per-occupied US.

Patience is usually the way to go but North Korea is really out there on their own - there's never been anything like it. There is virtually nothing known about the state of N.Korea internally. In the last 10 years there has been only 1 or 2 documentaries who have gained access to N.Korea in any real way and it is very disturbing to watch how they live and how they think as a result of generations of straight forward societal brainwashing.

I'll try n find that doc about the eye surgeon treating glycoma who gained decent access with cameras - really really weird sh1t. Has to be seen to be believed. That entire country needs freeing and rebooting from scratch and every one of its leaders locked up. It's so fuked up there You couldn't make it up as a bad fictional writer.

here it is:

Dr. Sanduk Ruit Part 1-5 National Geographic Undercover in North Korea

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQXfMMHV8FM

The most disturbing part for me is Part 5 at the end which shows how brainwashed the people are.

"Everyone is trained form birth to love the dear leader...."

Iran is not the same thing at all
holy crap you do not want North Korea with a fully developed long range nuclear missile force!

Had to laugh when I read this.

Do you not find disturbing how utterly brainwashed Americans are?
They think that Obama is an Arab.
90% of them believe in miracles.
They think Afghans attacked them on 9/11.
They think Cuba and Venezuela are like Nazi Germany but with Red Stars instead of Swastikas.
The live their entire lives in a constant false dichotomy, i.e. Coke or Pepsi, McDonalds or Burger King, Republican or Democrat.
The list goes on and on and on.

Be like Nutella

"...how utterly brainwashed Americans are?"

It does 'seem' 'sometimes' to 'us' that 'most' American's are 'sort of' brainwashed by their crappy commercially influenced news media and a psychotic sense of greatness etc etc.... but.... that's probably because 'we' are ourselves brainwashed by all the conspiracy sh1t we watch and read all the time... me and you included.... generalizations and absolutes are never usually true ....most American's are... forget that... SOME American's are brainwashed.

gaffer91

@asherbassad- why do you continually come onto the US politics with the sole purpose of insulting americans? Your writing style is invariably aggressive and snide. You'd seriously want to grow up.

As for being utterly brainwashed- your posting history tells us that you are a big believer in conspiracy theories, as well as believing that 9-11 was a controlled demolition so I don't think you're in any position to slag anyone off.

asherbassad

Let's take a look at the facts.
The US has attacked Korea before. They have attacked and killed millions of Korean citizens. They have occupied part of the country since and have threatened the other part of the country with further attack and bloodshed. American troops routinely assault, rape or kill Korean citizens in drunken encounters.
Why WOULDN'T North Korea want weapons to defend itself from such an aggressive bastard as the US?
And then the US whines that Korea developing nuclear weapons is a direct threat to US security and national interests. What bollocks!

That's akin to the schoolyard bully complaining that he's under threat because one of his victims has started taking karate lessons.

gaffer91

asherbassad wrote: »

Let's take a look at the facts.
The US has attacked Korea before. They have attacked and killed millions of Korean citizens.

The US, fighting under the EU banner (admittedly when the USSR couldn't veto action) intervened to defend South Korea after the North invaded. This was a justifiable part of the US cold war policy of containment.

asherbassad wrote: »

They have occupied part of the country since and have threatened the other part of the country with further attack and bloodshed.

There is a US military presence in SK but I'd hardly go so far as to say they "occupy" the country. SK has been a democratic country since the 1980s. It is generally NK who threaten the USA also, not the other way around.

asherbassad wrote: »

American troops routinely assault, rape or kill Korean citizens in drunken encounters.

They do it "routinely" do they? :rolleyes: And are these actions sanctioned by the US government or just the acts of rogue individuals?

asherbassad wrote: »

Why WOULDN'T North Korea want weapons to defend itself from such an aggressive bastard as the US?
And then the US whines that Korea developing nuclear weapons is a direct threat to US security and national interests. What bollocks!

That's akin to the schoolyard bully complaining that he's under threat because one of his victims has started taking karate lessons.

Again NK is a lot more belligerent to the US than the US is to it. The USA justifiably don't want nuclear weapons in the hands of rogue states like NK and Iran. NK is probably the most oppressive and evil regime on Earth, the abuses its citizens suffer at the hands of their tyrannical despotic ruling elite are simply appalling. Take off the blinkered anti-US specs.

NK is the state equivalent of a homicidal psychopath who demands a machine gun.

CollardGreens

Did I hear somewhere in the news, that North Korea conducted a nuclear test? (please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong)

:rolleyes:

Be like Nutella

Question is, if sanctions aren't working to stop NK from getting closer to a tested working warhead with a delivery system... then what will?
China is getting pissed off at them at this stage and doesn't want NK to incite US military involvement in the region at all... so will more than likely have to threaten withdrawing aid and economic ties (at least behind closed doors). If that doesn't happen or doesn't work - then what next?
Could the US hit enough of the NK sites and stop or dramatically slow down NK's pursuit of an actual deliverable nuclear weapon ability with air strikes? Would there be a genuine risk of a massive NK retaliation in the form of thousands of artillery strikes on SK? and would that risk therefore prohibit the US from doing strikes on the nuclear sites?

Victor

gaffer91 wrote: »

The US, fighting under the EU banner

UN

Be like Nutella

CollardGreens wrote: »

Did I hear somewhere in the news, that North Korea conducted a nuclear test? (please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong)

:rolleyes:

yes they did... larger than their previous ones... apparently a smaller device which has analysts thinking they are closer to a warhead sized device which could fit a large missile... potentially. But it's all opinion right now. They are throwing some serious shapes at the moment but it seems to be more part of a national thing i.e. to show power to its own hypnotized population. You can't take what NK says in press releases literally or you'd go to war with them immediately... they're a bit mental. The US has been playing the long game with them because the US knows that NK is very far from a deliverable weapon.. just as it knows Iran is nowhere next nor near having either a nuclear weapon, a nuclear weapons program, a test or anything like a delivery system etc etc.. it's all theater for us to debate about but not really appreciate or understand in its diplomatic complexity, as per usual.

Jonny7

At any time, China could completely cripple North Korea by turning off the pipeline, cut the trade and ceasing economic ties.. at almost negligible cost to itself, and obviously massive cost to the DPRK.

Be like Nutella

Jonny7 wrote: »

At any time, China could completely cripple North Korea by turning off the pipeline, cut the trade and ceasing economic ties.. at almost negligible cost to itself, and obviously massive cost to the DPRK.

so the greater question is about regional power-play... China has always and will always play a very long game. I remember reading a quote from a Chinese Emperor of long ago saying something like 'beat us in battle today and we'll weep for our soldiers ...but then we'll fight you for 1000 years!'. China need the NK issue to remain 'live' so as to be able to flex it's international influence... NK is chips on the table for China (as annoying as NK is to China!). China is a 1000 man dictatorship which operates a quasi westernized government controlled sort-of-free economy ... they fear any change... they fear a change of regime in NK and they see any pro SK action as Pro-American, Pro-Western which is automatically anti-Chinese government. The are verrry gradually dealing with a post-MAO China which has awoken and is being carefully released form its chains to a certain extent all part of long term plans as the Chinese always operate by. They see a need to retain a say in the NK situation as a diplomatic buffer-zone of sorts with the West and specifically the US, in a period when China sees the US and Japan as increasing it's regional significance and muscle flexing which is alllll seen as counter-Chinese influence whether it is or not. This is long term chess and the pieces are in flux right now. China COULD collapse NK but doesn't want to... and probably shouldn't because NK is not understood in entirety enough by the world to even consider what to do in that situation let alone wondering how anybody affords the cost of dealing with that situation. NK is one of if not the toughest nuts to crack out there... there seems to be nothing anyone can do and it's very sad. At least there is a small chance that there is some possibility the NK people are increasing their world view in small bits but the regime still has the national 'mind' on lock down so far. 'Regime survival' explains pretty much all of what you see and hear out of NK all the missile tests, satellite launches and nuclear tests. They are ONE miscalculation away from pulling the tail of the lion (the US). NK has the potential to become as regionally destabilizing as Syria is proving to be right now and requires delicate and clever patience-heavy negotiation, behind closed doors. Straight forward carrot and stick tactics won't work with NK (and by proxy China). All about regional influence, saving face and power projection. I just can't see China sitting on the fence that much longer.

Jonny7

NK is pretty much immune to it's population, even when they starve to death, it's just an inconvenience to the ruling dynasty. No uprising is possible in that country, change must come from the leadership or pressure from abroad.

China just wants to keep the status quo and does not suffer any internal pressure from supporting such a regime

Slap on the wrist from time to time.

The new PM in SK is quite a bit more right-wing and might ramp up next time NK throws one of their classic tantrums in the form of a military incident.

NK leadership plays the world.. escalating.. then climbing down, being "good", gets it's treats.. rinse repeat.

pablodiablo

Again NK is a lot more belligerent to the US than the US is to it. The USA justifiably don't want nuclear weapons in the hands of rogue states like NK and Iran. NK is probably the most oppressive and evil regime on Earth, the abuses its citizens suffer at the hands of their tyrannical despotic ruling elite are simply appalling. Take off the blinkered anti-US specs.
[/QUOTE

The most devastating bomb the world has ever seen was delivered by the USA ( twice for good measure) yet they can decide who can and who can't develop nuclear weapons. You are right about NK being an oppressive and evil regime but the USA isn't exactly a shining example as it's military history would attest. Successive American administrations have prattled on about the so called axis of evil yet if any country deserves to be a member of it they should look no further then themselves with they're constant warmongering.

pablodiablo

well I guess if you consider dropping two atomic bombs on an already defeated nation and killing thousands of innocent people as successfully getting your point across fair play to you...

pablodiablo

I know it's not for this thread but there is something very suspicious about a lot of aspects of 9/11 such as the way wtc 7 collapsed and how was the pentagon hit half an hour after the trade center....anyway yes war has always been a part of mankinds history and unfortunately always will be and it will always be the innocent and poor who fare the worst

gaffer91

Victor wrote: »

UN

Well spotted. Will edit.

pablodiablo wrote: »

The most devastating bomb the world has ever seen was delivered by the USA ( twice for good measure) yet they can decide who can and who can't develop nuclear weapons.

It was justified when the USA used it as it actually saved American and Japanese lives. And yes, as the world's foremost superpower, the USA has a large say in determining who can and can't obtain WMD's.

pablodiablo wrote: »

Successive American administrations have prattled on about the so called axis of evil yet if any country deserves to be a member of it they should look no further then themselves with they're constant warmongering.

What absolute nonsense. Look at the freedom and liberty citizens have in places like the USA and western Europe and contrast that with the oppression and government control in places like Iran and NK. So no, the US does not deserve to be in the "axis of evil" (which I actually believe is quite a silly term anyway). Sometimes the USA's foreign policy is justified, sometimes it isn't, but they are much more of a force for good than the likes of NK and Iran. They are also probably the least aggressive superpower in world history.

pablodiablo wrote: »

I know it's not for this thread but there is something very suspicious about a lot of aspects of 9/11 such as the way wtc 7 collapsed and how was the pentagon hit half an hour after the trade center

Oh FFS. :rolleyes:

Scofflaw

pablodiablo, we have a Conspiracy Theories forum, please save the 911 stuff for there.

moderately,
Scofflaw

gaffer91

@pablodiablo-

I don't really see what you're trying to prove with that list. Everyone knows the USA has involved themselves in many overseas military engagements- many were justified, some were not. I'm not going to bother trying to argue the point for each and every one of them- partly because i don't know a lot about many of them but mainly because I'd be banging my head off a brick wall. What I will say though, is to keep in mind that many of these operations were part of the cold war policy of containing communism, a truly disastrous ideology, which often involved picking the lesser of two evils.

My point is still correct though; as world superpowers go the USA is the least aggressive in world history. Compare their actions to the conquests and imperialism of the Greeks, Romans, French, Russians (domestically and abroad) Germans, British and even the recent Chinese sabre rattling with Japan and the Phillipines and so on and you get an idea of what I'm talking about. While the USA will always strive to protect their interests, the same as any other country, they have not, on the most part, used their significant power for ill means such as the annexation and subjugation of other countries for the purposes of nationalism/resource extraction/ etc as most other superpowers have done. All this when the destructive power at the USA's disposal was infinitely greater than at any other superpowers who came before them. Suffice the say the USA has exercised their power relatively responsibly and for that we should all be grateful.

And if you want to look into pre-meditate atrocities committed by governments against their own citizens, looking at what regularly goes on in places like Iran and NK is a good place to start.

pablodiablo

Well gaffer91 stating that your point is correct means that it is correct in your view to me your point isn't correct. We are obviously not goin to agree on this im sure a lot of people will support your point of view and a lot of people would be of a similar view to mine.

The point of that list was to highlight exactly how aggressive they have been. 65 military operations in foreign countries since the end of WW2 is a fairly damning statistic and that figure doesn't even include there covert operations in that time span. I would also have to disagree with your point in regards to resource extraction do you think they'd be in the middle east if there was no oil there? As for destructive power I think I covered that earlier when I mentioned about the atomic bombs...as for NK and Iran and how they treat there citizens well im sure things are pretty bad in these countries but my point was that the US has also perpetrated atrocities against it's own civilians.

CollardGreens

as for NK and Iran and how they treat there citizens well im sure things are pretty bad in these countries but my point was that the US has also perpetrated atrocities against it's own civilians.

@Pablodiablo ~ what does any of that have to do with NK conducting a nuclear test?
You seem to want to turn this thread into an anti American war thread. The list, it has NOTHING to do with NK and a nuclear test? It just ate up space and it would be nice if you removed it and reposted it on your own thread that has to do with whatever you are wanting to discus.

There is a "new thread" button at the top, please feel free to use it to discus your anti American issues.

Thank you very much!

Corkfeen

pablodiablo wrote: »

Well gaffer91 stating that your point is correct means that it is correct in your view to me your point isn't correct. We are obviously not goin to agree on this im sure a lot of people will support your point of view and a lot of people would be of a similar view to mine.

The point of that list was to highlight exactly how aggressive they have been. 65 military operations in foreign countries since the end of WW2 is a fairly damning statistic and that figure doesn't even include there covert operations in that time span. I would also have to disagree with your point in regards to resource extraction do you think they'd be in the middle east if there was no oil there? As for destructive power I think I covered that earlier when I mentioned about the atomic bombs...as for NK and Iran and how they treat there citizens well im sure things are pretty bad in these countries but my point was that the US has also perpetrated atrocities against it's own civilians.

Sixty five known cases of military action since WW2 by a superpower isn't as massive as you make it out to be. It isn't damning as it doesn't even consider the context of American involvement in each case. Some of them were extremely small affairs by scale such as Mayaguez and others were somewhat of a necessity such as Korea. No doubt, there was military action that should never gone ahead such as Vietnam and Iraq. Ireland has around fifteen cases of peace keeping missions across the world but it is classified as military action, is that damning too?

The use of the nuclear bomb is contentious and is still being debated by historians to this day. There's no definitive answer on if they should have went ahead with it. Personally I don't think they should have gone ahead with it. But concepts of nuclear policy took nearly thirty years to figure out to any degree. To some including Truman, It was more favourable in his eyes to use a nuke over a conventional army and put the fear of god into the SU.(But a lot of dumb **** occurred during the cold war)

In regards to atrocities against their own civilians. Since the Second World War, civilian rights have been constantly improving in America. The civil rights movement being just one example of it. Any abuses of civil rights generally come to the fore. It's not in anyway comparable to North Korea where citizens have literally starved because their 'great leader' won't recognise the need for a free market. That's just one facet of their situation. 'Pretty bad' is an understatement.

Cardinal Richelieu

Its hard to know what North Korea will do, China have tried to cultivate allies in the North Korean government over the last 10 years that would aid a change in Management if needed but the periodic purges have weakened this. The increased influence of the South Korea(smuggling of movie DVDS and dramas is big business) has weakened the regime control over the under 30s so much so that they have recently brought in dress codes for women and even more crazy, official hairstyles!

For her!


For him!

Jonny7

NK ramping up the rhetoric regarding pre-emptive strike on the US

Also threatening to tear up the armistice

Looks like the proposed sanctions by US/China (that target mainly luxury goods and NK diplomats) are really riling up the regime.

asherbassad

Be like Nutella wrote: »

It is worrying though I must admit. North Korea is such a strange situation I just feel bad for the delusional population there it's a horrible and depressing island of complete insanity. I don't know what can be done but I know that simply leaving them to their devices and allowing the lunatics in charge to continue to develop half asses long range missiles and nuclear tech decades behind the curve is dangerous. Eventually they're going to do a test or fire a missile which really p1sses off the US and becomes a serious issue. Right now they are so isolated and crap at what they are trying to develop the US has been publicly ignoring them and trying their best to treat them as a rational actor through sanctions - carrot and stick containment. But sooner or later somethings gotta give. Their population can't rise up - they're all completely insanely brain washed poor feckers and China is completely embarrassed by the lunacy of their leadership but have to back them to a degree because it's part of their buffer zone/hinterland and its a chip in the game against the US... China's future military competitor (don't tell me they're a military competitor now because they're not)

North Korea is on the long finger for now but more shapes by its bonkers leadership like this is going to elicit a REAL response from a very busy per-occupied US.

Patience is usually the way to go but North Korea is really out there on their own - there's never been anything like it. There is virtually nothing known about the state of N.Korea internally. In the last 10 years there has been only 1 or 2 documentaries who have gained access to N.Korea in any real way and it is very disturbing to watch how they live and how they think as a result of generations of straight forward societal brainwashing.

I'll try n find that doc about the eye surgeon treating glycoma who gained decent access with cameras - really really weird sh1t. Has to be seen to be believed. That entire country needs freeing and rebooting from scratch and every one of its leaders locked up. It's so fuked up there You couldn't make it up as a bad fictional writer.

here it is:

Dr. Sanduk Ruit Part 1-5 National Geographic Undercover in North Korea

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQXfMMHV8FM

The most disturbing part for me is Part 5 at the end which shows how brainwashed the people are.

"Everyone is trained form birth to love the dear leader...."

Iran is not the same thing at all
holy crap you do not want North Korea with a fully developed long range nuclear missile force!

If the US lifted the sanctions it imposed on North Korea since the 50's then you wouldn't have this problem. How can North Korea have any kind of relations with neighbours when this kind of sh!t is going on.

Be like Nutella

asherbassad wrote: »

If the US lifted the sanctions it imposed on North Korea since the 50's then you wouldn't have this problem. How can North Korea have any kind of relations with neighbours when this kind of sh!t is going on.

Valid point alright. But it might not be supported by the facts.

I'd have to look into the details of the sanctions and see are they designed to hurt the fat cats or population? my guess would be stopping luxury goods gettin to the fat cats (somebody say Concorde lunches from Paris a la Pahlavi) China gives them food and fuel and such as far as I know.

Opening up all the sanctions could result in Nuke tech transfer in/out of DPRK and that's all bad news. Dr Kahn's network shut that door.

It's a truly fuked up situation. Id say every crazy idea under the sun has been tabled in Washington to try and find a way to manage North Korea out of its theistic personality cult isolationist nightmare.

It needs some 'outside the box' thinking by some smart people... can't go on forever.... but there's no point being too impatient either especially in an era of the US Pivot to Asia and China flexing muscles more and more each day. North Korea is China's Northern Ireland in the 70's.

Doctor Strange

MadYaker wrote: »

So there has been direct confirmation by the DPRK that one of the goals of their missile program is to launch a nuclear attack on the US??? What was the US govs response to this? They have invaded countries for a lot less. I'm guessing that since the US hasn't taken any direct action, as far as I know, to prevent the DPRK from achieving this goal they think that the DPRK lack the technical know how or resources to actually make this happen. Or else its all just posturing and then have no intention of actually carrying out such a strike.

It's also to do with the fact NK are backed heavily (not as much as they used to be, but still) by China. China obviously being big trading partners of the US is key to this situation. So long as the upcoming cash cow that it represents market-wise is tied to a NK-backing government, the US is effectively powerless physical combat-wise. They however, along with the UN, can impose heavy sanctions on NK so long as they continue with the "threat". But if China were to stop backing NK, the US or China and SK could have an army mobilised at the borders of NK in hours.

Cardinal Richelieu

Unforgettable _ Fire wrote: »

It's also to do with the fact NK are backed heavily (not as much as they used to be, but still) by China. China obviously being big trading partners of the US is key to this situation. So long as the upcoming cash cow that it represents market-wise is tied to a NK-backing government, the US is effectively powerless physical combat-wise. They however, along with the UN, can impose heavy sanctions on NK so long as they continue with the "threat". But if China were to stop backing NK, the US or China and SK could have an army mobilised at the borders of NK in hours.

China would want the Chinese Army option, they be mad to let a US or South Korea army into NK. A United Korea is not in China interests.

Doctor Strange

Cardinal Richelieu wrote: »

China would want the Chinese Army option, they be mad to let a US or South Korea army into NK. A United Korea is not in China interests.

True. Neither is an occupying US force, owing to the "Superpower buffer".

Jonny7

Sanctions from US/China are causing the NK leadership to issue serious threats, severe statements and escalate tensions.

Essentially, the Chinese/US sanctions are denying the leadership many of their typical luxuries - therefore they are desparately trying to bring the region to the brink of war - extraordinary.

InTheTrees

Jonny7 wrote: »

Sanctions from US/China are causing the NK leadership to issue serious threats, severe statements and escalate tensions.

Essentially, the Chinese/US sanctions are denying the leadership many of their typical luxuries - therefore they are desparately trying to bring the region to the brink of war - extraordinary.

Not a bad time to start squeezing the North Koreans.

The current posturing shows its working too.

Jonny7

InTheTrees wrote: »

Not a bad time to start squeezing the North Koreans.

The current posturing shows its working too.

I think NK is hoping to escalate the situation so badly that it won't make the sanctions worth it (or to offer deescalation in exchange for more concessions)

It's a giant game of bluff.

The only issue now is that the S Koreans have started to bite a bit, essentially indulging in the nonsense instead of rising above it.

I am waiting for cross-border incidents.

InTheTrees

There is also the dynamic of the new leader needing to assert himself to assure his continued control.

There's been an interesting escalation in cyberspace as South Korean banks and infrastructure suffered an attack last week.

"SEOUL, South Korea — Investigators have yet to pinpoint the culprit behind a synchronized cyberattack in South Korea last week. But in Seoul, the focus is fixed on North Korea, which South Korean security experts say has been training a team of computer-savvy "cyber warriors" as cyberspace becomes a fertile battleground in the nations' rivalry."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/24/north-korea-cyber-warfare-warriors-trained-teams_n_2943907.html

A Primal Nut

asherbassad wrote: »

Had to laugh when I read this.

Do you not find disturbing how utterly brainwashed Americans are?
They think that Obama is an Arab.

No they don't.

90% of them believe in miracles.

If you are referring to religion then probably well over 90% of the world believe in miracles. In fact 90% is lower than most countries in Asia, Africa and Middle East in particular. Most countries are a lot more brainwashed than the US.

They think Afghans attacked them on 9/11.

I'm pretty sure if you ask them they will say Saudis, or Muslim extremists; not just Afghans.

They think Cuba and Venezuela are like Nazi Germany but with Red Stars instead of Swastikas.

Agree about Venezuela but certainly Cuba has a lot in common with fascism; concentration camps, totalitarianism, no freedom of speech; complete government control. Just because Castro calls himself a Socialist or Communist to win popular support doesn't make it so; he has a lot more in common with Fascism than anything else.

The live their entire lives in a constant false dichotomy, i.e. Coke or Pepsi, McDonalds or Burger King, Republican or Democrat.

Coke, Pepsi, McDonalds and Burger King are often even more popular outside of the USA so its stupid to say only the US is like this. Actually when it comes to fast food or eating out in general US has a much bigger selection than most other countries; its really only in other countries that McDonalds and Burger King are so dominant. Despite their views on the USA, the Middle East in particular has a massive appetite for US fast food, especially McDonalds. As for only choosing between two parties, its the same in most countries except for dictatorships.

cd07

WhatNowForUs? wrote: »

You wouldn't want to be bald:eek:

Ha ha:D. What is the likely outcome of all this though? Will the americans use airstrikes on military targets? I suppose flying B2s over is just a reminder that NK would recieve a mighty ass-kickin if they push things too far. I feel for their citizens though that regime doesnt seem to mind playing with their lives.

Be like Nutella

The Key word here is 'rational'. As long as Washington views N. Korea as a 'fairly' rational actor AND as long as Washington views its current Intel on N. Korea's missile range and capabilities as fairly accurate (i.e. that N. Korea has the ability to hit parts of Alaska at best, and even then, extremely unlikely) then there will be no air strikes of any sort. And this is precisely the game N. Korea is playing - they are doing their best to be conceived as borderline 'irrational' by the world in order to make Washington do their utmost to keep 'strikes' off the table and out of the media... for fear it MAY ignite a wider regional conflict i.e. massive artillery war between the north and south which would bring China off the fence in one way or another! The bottom line is that the US needs to do the standard reactionary things such as the joint military exercises and the symbolic show of strength and watered down media comments etc but also be very wary of doing anything at all which may bring a physical attack of any sort from the dictator-cult Kim Jong il 2.0 which his son is doing his very best to become.

America could altitude bomb the crap out of so much of North Korea's military infrastructure if it came to it but the world knows full well that the real victims here are the brainwashed poor starving miserable North Korean civilians so there is no chance of that happening UNLESS N. Korea jumped over the insanity line and threw a serious surprise punch like sink another ship or let off some artillery on the border. Currently there is nobody saying this is likely but for the first time in many decades there are some experts seriously considering that there has been SO MUCH rhetoric at this stage that history is telling us to take note this time... in a kind of 'I told you so' after the fact sort of qualification. I'm a bit nervous to be honest that there's a lot of dry kindling in play between 26,000 American troops on the border and a massive amount of hardware in the region as the US 'pivots toward Asia'. The main US targets to consider are those troops, ships in the region, aircraft/drones in the region and the massive US base at Guam. But the US is staying clear of the Sea Border area and keeping all flexing to land operations and its mock B2 bombing. It's all finely balanced theater. The best indicator is the South Korean people who as far as reports are saying are almost ignoring the situation as they are used to the scenario from the past and they don't want to queue at the supermarket for needless supplies once again!

rockonollie

In effect it's just the new leader trying to be a tough guy......with the US presence in South Korea, if the north koreans did launch a missile targeting the states, US F16s would intercept it before it got even half way across the Pacific......and the north korean military bases would be crippled within an hour.

The US does not want to take military action against North Korea, but ther are in a position to do it quickly and in a devastating fashion.

Victor

rockonollie wrote: »

if the north koreans did launch a missile targeting the states, US F16s would intercept it before it got even half way across the Pacific......and the north korean military bases would be crippled within an hour.

You might acquaint yourself with the technology and distances involved.

Maximum range of an AMRAAM air-to-air missile carried by an F-16 - about 30-100km. Time to fuel, arm and launch an F-16 = 15-30 seconds.

Distance from Korea to Alaska - about 6,000km, mostly over water and Russia. http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=icn-fai&MS=wls&DU=mi Estimated speed of a Taepodong-2 27,000 km/h => flight time to Alaska of 13 minutes.

Engagement window 10-20 seconds.

Be like Nutella

North Korea are never going to launch a nuclear Missile at Alaska under any circumstances at all ever never ever gona happen ever... ever... ever never ever never so not worth even referring to

they basically have a load of soviet cannons pointed south - that's about it.

Poor fukers that live there though... it's gotta be the worst country on Earth, well certainly the most psychologically messed up bunch of people on the planet. Even if the regime stood down today like what would you do with them? They'd be so lost and shocked... it's such a mind bender of a situation. You'd almost have to replace the regime with a fake regime to gradually introduce the people to the world and wake them up gradually over years or they'd all go bleeding bananas!

rockonollie

Victor wrote: »

You might acquaint yourself with the technology and distances involved.

Maximum range of an AMRAAM air-to-air missile carried by an F-16 - about 30-100km. Time to fuel, arm and launch an F-16 = 15-30 seconds.

Distance from Korea to Alaska - about 6,000km, mostly over water and Russia. http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=icn-fai&MS=wls&DU=mi Estimated speed of a Taepodong-2 27,000 km/h => flight time to Alaska of 13 minutes.

Engagement window 10-20 seconds.

27000 km/h is the high end estimate of an unladen Taepodong-2, and that is after reaching top velocity.....it doesn't leave the launch-pad at top speed, and anyone familiar with any type of missile lauch knows that.