[Event] Valentia Island Tri 2013 Saturday 11th May

Kurt Godel

Annabelle Fresh Nutshell wrote: »

BTW i am in agreement with you in case that does not come across in my post. I am a sh1t swimmer but when you sign up to do a tri you expect to get a little bit wet before you get on the bike!!

Nah it comes across alright as is Fran. You're just looking for reasons or explanations, to something that otherwise makes no sense to those who weren't there.

As far as I can see it, we're in a sport (triathlon) that utilizes what we got in Ireland. Thats an abundance of water, that while not hot, is never too cold, and never full of predators, and is usually not too rough. We have roads, which include severe bends, offset cambre, bad surfaces, frequent potholes, agressive motorists. Constantly saying "Safety is our No. 1 priority" isn't good enough. Managing the inherent risks involved in the sport is more important. Its a better thing that a triathlon goes ahead with 10 willing competitors, than that Tri becomes a duathlon to accommodate the 300 who would prefer not to swim. When risk is being decided between disciplines by TI (or their insurers), its considered that you should wrap the swimmers in (eternally dry) cotton wool. The knock on effect is- why bother training for the swim part?

I'm getting very repetitive now, so I guess I'll bow out of making the same arguments. Just pissed off that a swim in decent conditions in a great part of the world got cancelled.

bombidal

Attached is the reason I though the swim was cancelled. Taken about 4pm. This was the 3rd swim out of my last 6 tri's that has been shortened or cut. Kilkenny last year still takes the biscuit. Very frustrating.

griffin100

There's something wrong when a swim cancellation or shortening results in a happier field. I've only ever had one tri swim cancelled (for water quality issues) but I've done two where the swims were shortened and in both cases there was huge relief in the field - seriously, if you can't swim 750m go and do Gaelforce or some other messing.

RacoonQueen

Kurt Godel wrote: »

Bottom line is I'm tired of the swim leg being cancelled for perceived risk reasons. The bike leg entails far more risk (and certainly did today, very little control when the wind has more power over the bike than you do). I've yet to hear of an Irish triathlete dying during swim training or racing. Unfortunately its all too common in the bike section.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/swimmer-dies-after-being-rescued-from-dublin-bay-1.1351766

Not that I disagree with your point, but this was a triathlete who got in for a swim after his run and died from hypothermia I believe.

Like Fran, I'm a sh*t swimmer (particularly in OW ) but I don't see the point in doing a tri without a swim and short swims are annoying. I was gutted in Athlone last year when the swim was shortened and despite struggling during the shortened swim I was still disappointed afterwards. Everyone else nearly threw a party when they found out it was shortened.

sibeen99

I headed to Valentia in the hopes of becoming a triathlete yesterday and was absolutely gutted that the swim was cancelled! I really think if there is any chance of swim not going ahead entrants should be advised and given an option to defer or be refunded. Or let the competitors decide if they want to risk the swim. Im sure everyone, like myself, has been training for the event and it is totally disheartening for it not to proceed as planned. Im not a great swimmer but was so so disappointed that I didn't even have a chance to find out how good or bad I could be in race conditions Oh well, thats my rant but I'm cettainly not happy going home today as a duathlete!
Well done to all that participated anyway!

Ceepo

I'm sure it was a pain in the butt to drive down there to find out the swim was cancelled, and I see a lot on hear giving out about it.

My understanding is that it was cancelled on the grounds of.

Water temp of less than 12c, when the air temp was only about 8c.

Like it or not under ITU rules with the swim should be cancelled.
13c is the mimium water temp for a Triathlon to go ahead, and this is subject to air temp as well.

Its all very fine for someone one hear to say "I taught the water was fine"
But if something was to happen anyone out there or any other race
Who do you think would be held responsible?

Race director, Club, Technical Officer, Athlete ????

All maybe, but it wouldn't be anyone on hear !!!

tunney

Annabelle Fresh Nutshell wrote: »

Problem is Paul those are the current rules set out. As AKW mentioned its water temp/air temp which is considered and not only how choppy the water is. Just as a side note the sea water temp on the North East was measured at 8.5 last week.
Perhaps the rules need to be looked at because its going to put a lot of people off signing up for early season races. Totally understand your frustration.

Changing the rules will not make anything safer. The water temperature rules are *NOT* TIs. They are ITU, and indeed WTC.

While its disappointing for all involved, really its a risk that you run. Like IM Frankfurt has a 50/50 chance of being a non wetsuit swim, early season races in Ireland run a risk of having cancelled swims.

I personally always thought that races should look more to September than May for slots.

Kurt Godel

Ceepo wrote: »

I'm sure it was a pain in the butt to drive down there to find out the swim was cancelled, and I see a lot on hear giving out about it.

My understanding is that it was cancelled on the grounds of.

Water temp of less than 12c, when the air temp was only about 8c.

Like it or not under ITU rules with the swim should be cancelled.
13c is the mimium water temp for a Triathlon to go ahead, and this is subject to air temp as well.

Its all very fine for someone one hear to say "I taught the water was fine"
But if something was to happen anyone out there or any other race
Who do you think would be held responsible?

Race director, Club, Technical Officer, Athlete ????

All maybe, but it wouldn't be anyone on hear !!!

If you're going to throw the rulebook at me then the bike should have been cancelled due to dangerous crosswinds on the back part of the island. Deep rims were urged to exercise caution at the briefing, but weren't prohibited (discs were).
It may come across to you as "giving out", but I'm honestly trying to comprehend why the swim was cancelled. If its because of the ITU water temperature rules, then TI should adapt British Tri Fed rules on water temperature, and recognise that we're not living in a Continental climate. Otherwise the majority of Tri swims in Ireland are going to operate under threat of cancellation.

BTU Rules:
13deg 2,000m max
12deg 1,000m max
11deg 500m max

They are less restrictive than ITU rules, and I daresay more applicable to our climate. I'll be writing to TI asking if they have considered these BTU guidelines.

tunney

Your honour there were alot of people whinging on the internet. Thats why we went against internationally accepted best standards and let people in the water. We're very sorry those kids don't have their Daddy anymore but we didn't want people to get cranky.

Kurt Godel

tunney wrote: »

Your honour there were alot of people whinging on the internet. Thats why we went against internationally accepted best standards and let people in the water. We're very sorry those kids don't have their Daddy anymore but we didn't want people to get cranky.

Don't be a clown tunney, thats not what I'm saying. If the rules are so restrictive as to make swims very likely to be cancelled, I'll just move to OW swimming events (no loss to triathlon, I'm just a hobbyist). Adopting BTU rules seems a more practical solution than moving all tris to September.

tunney

Kurt Godel wrote: »

If you're going to throw the rulebook at me then the bike should have been cancelled due to dangerous crosswinds on the back part of the island. Deep rims were urged to exercise caution at the briefing, but weren't prohibited (discs were).
It may come across to you as "giving out", but I'm honestly trying to comprehend why the swim was cancelled. If its because of the ITU water temperature rules, then TI should adapt British Tri Fed rules on water temperature, and recognise that we're not living in a Continental climate. Otherwise the majority of Tri swims in Ireland are going to operate under threat of cancellation.

BTU Rules:
13deg 2,000m max
12deg 1,000m max
11deg 500m max

They are less restrictive than ITU rules, and I daresay more applicable to our climate. I'll be writing to TI asking if they have considered these BTU guidelines.

If you are going to throw the BTF rule book at this, I might as well include the bit that doesn't suit your argument

At temperatures below 11c, it is recommended that open water swimming does not take place. The above temperatures are base on water temperature alone and assume that the wind chill is negligible. If wind chill is significant, swim distances may be reduced at higher temperatures.

Under BTF rules then too yesterday would have been affected/cancelled too.

mossym

tunney wrote: »

I personally always thought that races should look more to September than May for slots.

agree with this. probably deserves a separate thread rather than derailing this one, but for someone trying to fill out their first year's racing in tri, there seems to be a real lack of events in sept, which is surprising. surely given the water temps, and the lack of a real drop in air temp, it's probably one of the best months for tris?

tunney

In ten years doing triathlon I have never entered a race with an OW swim that was on before June. Just seemed like a bl00dy stupid idea.

Never wear shorts on the bike before Easter.
Never race OW before the June back holiday.

Kurt Godel

tunney wrote: »

Under BTF rules then too yesterday would have been affected/cancelled too.

There was a strong wind yesterday, and no doubt wind chill was a factor, it may well have still been cancelled under BTF rules. If I'm coming across as just whinging, then I apologize. People with a wetsuit, a signed swim competency cert, and proper gear to stay warm on the bike, would have been well able to swim yesterday. I fully accept TI officials have to make their call based on rules (and its a thankless job), but IMO those temperature rules will continue to adversely restrict Tri's in Ireland.

No point in flogging a dead horse, so I'll leave it at that. The bike and run sections were very well marshalled, the set-up down in Valentia is great, the whole community were behind the event and out supporting, I'll be back again next year.

Ceepo

Meandered your letterrt Godel;84572082]If you're going to throw the rulebook at me then the bike should have been cancelled due to dangerous crosswinds on the back part of the island. Deep rims were urged to exercise caution at the briefing, but weren't prohibited (discs were).
It may come across to you as "giving out", but I'm honestly trying to comprehend why the swim was cancelled. If its because of the ITU water temperature rules, then TI should adapt British Tri Fed rules on water temperature, and recognise that we're not living in a Continental climate. Otherwise the majority of Tri swims in Ireland are going to operate under threat of cancellation.

BTU Rules:
13deg 2,000m max
12deg 1,000m max
11deg 500m max

They are less restrictive than ITU rules, and I daresay more applicable to our climate. I'll be writing to TI asking if they have considered these BTU guidelines.[/QUOTE]

HI Gurt

Please don't think I was thrown the rule book at you.
As I didn't quote you or anyone else for that matter.

I simply pointed out the rules as they stand at present. If BTU
Have different guide lines so be it.

By all means send a letter it TI or better still get your club to bring a Motion to the next AGM.
Where I am sure it will be debated, then passed or not what ever the case.
That way then Clubs, Race directors, Technical Officer can follow any amended rule change.

I agree with you regarding managing the risks on roads, bikes etc

But there is a difference in risk management. And not implenting the Rules.

If an accident happens, one of the 1st questions asked is about risk assessment/management. There is only so much that you can do to prevent an accident.
But if that accident happened because the race went ahead outside of NGB rules
That's a totally different matter

MrCreosote

The Malin head average sea temps are interesting for just how warm September is compared to May. The pattern would be vaild for the western seaboard.


Valentia in Early May? The only surprise is that the swim hasn't been cancelled more often in pevious years. It sucks having a race changed or cancelled, but in fairness it's hardly a shock.

longshank

I was there yesterday and to be honest if I was the one responsible for making the call I would have cancelled the swim too.
I personally would have had no problem doing the swim but it is the weaker swimmers that have to be considered, cold water combined with a choppy seas followed by strong winds on the bike is an unreasonable risk for beginners and weak swimmers.
I'm sure the person ultimately responsible has to consider the weakest and worst case scenario NOT the 99.8% who would have no issues.
People need to see beyond their own issues and see it from the point of view of the person who is responsible for the safety of everyone.

bazzer86

Kurt Godel wrote: »

Hearsay, but I heard the water temps were 13 degrees, but that the wind-chill on the poor bikers was wot won it. It wasn't cold in any way on the bike (dry) today, but it was windy. A wet trisuit on the bike wouldn't have been tickety-boo, but thats what layers are for (or god forbid going fast to warm yourself up). I had a shower at a cold tap after my swim, stood outside naked to dry for a few minutes. We're not talking winter conditions, far from it.

Anyone else down there have an opinion?

Was just looking at the pictures of the shore road, and I don't think you are comparing like with like as the shore road is a lot more sheltered than the harbour by the marina. Perhaps they should have moved it there but that may not have worked logistically... I'm sure they looked at all options before cancelling it. It was a pity but sure....

Kurt Godel

bazzer86 wrote: »

Was just looking at the pictures of the shore road, and I don't think you are comparing like with like as the shore road is a lot more sheltered than the harbour by the marina. Perhaps they should have moved it there but that may not have worked logistically... I'm sure they looked at all options before cancelling it. It was a pity but sure....

You're right, it was more sheltered where I was just up from the Revenue houses, but got choppier as I swam out. Granted it was more choppy still mid-Renard. And I'm sure they looked at all options, and are hampered by the TI rules. Longshank put it well above, most would have been able to swim on the day, but the veil of 100% safety errs on the side of caution. Not something I personally agree with, but there you go. I'll write or motion to TI that Ireland needs less stringent rules regarding water temperature than worldwide rules (specifically, British rules would enable more tri swims to go ahead, and go ahead safely).

splurge

Why do you think the rules should be different here ?
Can we cope better with lower temperatures than other europeans ?
Are we all better natural swimmers ?
Does hypothermia take longer to affect us thsn anyone else ?

The rules are the rules - the biggest problem is the mentality of some people - ah sure we'll be grand !

Water temperatures are a critical factor in safe swimming and clear information from the race organisers should be provided in advance I.e I believe tri an mhi should report today on the current water temps and the likelihood of a swim proceeding - this wpuld avoid rash decisions taken on race morning in view of 300 adrenalin fuelled triathletes.

Kurt Godel

splurge wrote: »

Why do you think the rules should be different here ?

Because we train in colder climate waters. I think the rules should fit their purpose, ie. recognise that Irish triathletes will be swimming in colder waters than their Continental cousins. Use the geographic-specific BTF rules to accommadate this, while maintaining general safety.

splurge wrote: »

Can we cope better with lower temperatures than other europeans ?

Yes, if we train in colder waters, we will have built up a tolerance to that cold.

splurge wrote: »

Are we all better natural swimmers ?

No evidence for that, but I'd suggest its a moot point.

splurge wrote: »

Does hypothermia take longer to affect us thsn anyone else ?

It will take longer to affect us if we train in and get used to cold waters. So, yes, if we train in Irish waters we are less prone to the effects of hypothermia than warmer-water swimmers.

splurge wrote: »

The rules are the rules - the biggest problem is the mentality of some people - ah sure we'll be grand !

From what I can see no-one is being as glib or flippant as this. Everyone recognises that safety is an issue. If the BTF can safely hold Tris at a lower water temperature than ITU rules, then I'd suggest thats something we should look at, given that our waters are of similar temperature.

splurge wrote: »

Water temperatures are a critical factor in safe swimming and clear information from the race organisers should be provided in advance I.e I believe tri an mhi should report today on the current water temps and the likelihood of a swim proceeding - this wpuld avoid rash decisions taken on race morning in view of 300 adrenalin fuelled triathletes.

Agree 100%. You've paid your money, recognising that your entry fee is probably non-refundable, so its not a cost issue. Plenty of triathletes won't want to travel to a duathlon; prior info from the organizers will help them make that choice.

sconhome

Kurt Godel wrote: »

If the BTF can safely hold Tris at a lower water temperature than ITU rules...

Any examples?

From my reading of the ITU rules, and there are new rules for 2013 bringing the old rule book from 62 up to 139 pages the air temperature factors that the BTF use in conjunction with water temperatures are now being incorporated with very definite go / no-go guidelines.

I don't see the BTF rules allowing any flexibility or loop holes that we can squeeze through an Irish race with. We may just have to accept that O/W triathlon is not going to be acceptable risk in Ireland before July /August.

Kurt Godel

amphkingwest wrote: »

Any examples?

(Mods any chance of splitting this swim rules discussion from the general Valentia thread?)

I'm just going on my reading of their difference regarding swims:

ITU Competition rules Pg17/18- swims cancelled below 13deg, and specified ambient temperature definitions.

BTF Competition Rules Pg 13/14- 11deg max distance 500m, 12deg max 1000, 13deg max 1500. Discretionary ambient temperature guidelines.

bazzer86

Kurt Godel wrote: »

You're right, it was more sheltered where I was just up from the Revenue houses, but got choppier as I swam out. Granted it was more choppy still mid-Renard. And I'm sure they looked at all options, and are hampered by the TI rules. Longshank put it well above, most would have been able to swim on the day, but the veil of 100% safety errs on the side of caution. Not something I personally agree with, but there you go. I'll write or motion to TI that Ireland needs less stringent rules regarding water temperature than worldwide rules (specifically, British rules would enable more tri swims to go ahead, and go ahead safely).

Yeah id agree with that reply. I can understand your frustration, but tell me your thoughts on the following;

Take Valentia for example. I was there Saturday and participated and this was my 3rd year at it. The one 2 years ago was 100% choppier and worse conditions in the water...although the current that was passing by the corner of the marina towards the ferry looked meaty. Which leads me to my question. In terms of the 100% veil, what would you do about this. I'm sure 99% of participants would have gotten it done. But what about the people that hadn't prepared. Do you say sorry you look too unfit and there's no chance you will do it?
Valentia is going to attract local people every year who might only do one a year. So you are going to come accross people who might find the conditions very daunting on Saturday but would still jump in to try and do it?

Is it a case of screening people based on past record to see who can do it?

Green&Red

Any idea what happens to the NS points now?
Serious move around on finishing places without a swim


Is it 100% that it was called off due to water temp? I presumed it was due to the current and choppiness?

El Director

Reasons for the cancelation of the swim from TI are here

Now when a swim has cancelled or shortened in the past I have been extremely disappointed but I for one am glad that there are responsible and impartial people making these decisions at races. In fairness they have rules to follow and not guidelines and if they knowingly went against those rules then it's their head on the block and could even face jail time should anything go seriously wrong. Have you seen some of the pack of the pack swimmers at races btw? Clinging onto kayaker's and barely able to float. Right decisions are seldom easy but always right.

As for the earlier suggestion of leaving it up to the competitors to make the decision, can you imagine a "hands up" situation in transition!! I guess the less said the better.

My advice for anybody that finds themselves in this situation again. Say "Fvck it, sh1t" etc... and then immediately start to prepare for the new format, mentally and physically.

BTH

El Director wrote: »

Reasons for the cancelation of the swim from TI are here

Now when a swim has cancelled or shortened in the past I have been extremely disappointed but I for one am glad that there are responsible and impartial people making these decisions at races. In fairness they have rules to follow and not guidelines and if they knowingly went against those rules then it's their head on the block and could even face jail time should anything go seriously wrong. Have you seen some of the pack of the pack swimmers at races btw? Clinging onto kayaker's and barely able to float. Right decisions are seldom easy but always right.

As for the earlier suggestion of leaving it up to the competitors to make the decision, can you imagine a "hands up" situation in transition!! I guess the less said the better.

My advice for anybody that finds themselves in this situation again. Say "Fvck it, sh1t" etc... and then immediately start to prepare for the new format, mentally and physically.

I agree with your point ElD. The people making the decisions must follow the rules we all sign up to and adhering to these rules is for everyone's safety.

I have issue with the bit in bold though. Should those people really be in the race?? You wouldn't expect someone who can't ride a bike in a triathlon. Why do we willingly accept people who can't swim and accommodate them to the detriment of everyone else. Perhaps the correct decision was made this time (I don't know I wasn't there) but other races needlessly suffer.

griffin100

I wonder how many races I've done over the years when those limits on temperature were breached........2010 TriLimits HIM and 2011 Tri an Mhi HIM spring to mind. Maybe it's only really a thing thats checked at NS races.

The lack of swim ability in some newbies is a bit frightening tbh. I was a crap swimmer when I started (still am ) but I never had to hang on to a canoe or be helped by a boat marshal. I made sure I could swim the distance before I did an OW tri. I'm hoping to do the 6km Warrior Of The Sea this summer but before I actually start this race I'll be making damn sure I am confident I can swim the feckin distance. What do we sign swim proficiency declarations for?

If the rescue boats are tied up with dealing with poor swimmers, who is going to help the swimmers in genuine distress?

RacoonQueen

I'd wonder how poor those swimmers are or do they just panic though? I've had to have canoes guide me back on course

El Director

BTH wrote: »

I agree with your point ElD. The people making the decisions must follow the rules we all sign up to and adhering to these rules is for everyone's safety.

I have issue with the bit in bold though. Should those people really be in the race?? You wouldn't expect someone who can't ride a bike in a triathlon. Why do we willingly accept people who can't swim and accommodate them to the detriment of everyone else. Perhaps the correct decision was made this time (I don't know I wasn't there) but other races needlessly suffer.

Yeah, I totally agree with your BTH. I brought this up last year after TriAthy.

The following is probably for another and wider discussion but...It's downright reckless and dangerous. I think you should have to prove yourself in an OW swim situation before being allowed to toe the line, an OW Swimming license of sorts consisting of a 10/15min theory test and a practical test. More expense, I know but this is life or death and something I feel very strongly about. There were 84 deaths due to drowning in 2011, I don't think it is unreasonable to ask for some sort of regulations in this area. Like I said, getting off the point but just venting a little