[Event] Valentia Island Tri 2013 Saturday 11th May

Kurt Godel

TI report on Valentia wrote:

Please note both air temperature, wind speed and water temperature were taken into account and in accordance with ITU Competition rules the swim had to be cancelled for the safety of competitors both at the head of the field and those new to the sport.

As much as I'd like to think the cancelled swim was done to protect weak swimmers, the TI statement above makes it clear it wouldn't have gone ahead even if every entrant were Chris Bryan clones. I don't like it at all, but I signed up for the race and it was held under those rules, and the TI guys had no choice.

But the swim cert is something I'd strongly agree with too. Not least for the reason that if the Irish OW Tri season is going to last a few short months, I don't want those swims truncated or cancelled to appease those who shouldn't be let near deep water.

harringtonp

Despite the wind and fear of wind chill on the bike after a cold swim, it should be taken into account in future that the first 4km is both sheltered by trees and uphill with some good pulls. This is enough to warm most competitors up and very different from starting the bike at speed on an open exposed road. You would expect that by the time competitors reach the more exposed section on the top of the island, they would be somewhat drier and have warmed up.

tunney

harringtonp wrote: »

Despite the wind and fear of wind chill on the bike after a cold swim, it should be taken into account in future that the first 4km is both sheltered by trees and uphill with some good pulls. This is enough to warm most competitors up and very different from starting the bike at speed on an open exposed road. You would expect that by the time competitors reach the more exposed section on the top of the island, they would be somewhat drier and have warmed up.

Have you done a tri before?

harringtonp

tunney wrote: »

Have you done a tri before?

Yes about 15 of them over the last few years. Last one I entered before this years valentia (ballyheigue last year) also had the swim cancelled. Never had one with a cancelled swim before that.

I'm wondering whether I'm just jinxed or the powers to be have become far more cautious in recent years.

I remember the Hell of the West going ahead a few years ago in rough seas with sizeable swell. Rules are rules but we are in a nation where they are (or at least use to be) habitually bent.

tunney

harringtonp wrote: »

Rules are rules but we are in a nation where they are (or at least use to be) habitually bent.

And give it a few weeks and there will be threads about drafting rules being bent, rules about people cutting courses being bent.

If its a rule its a rule, enforce it to the full or change it.

shotgunmcos

harringtonp wrote: »

...
I remember the Hell of the West going ahead a few years ago in rough seas with sizeable swell.....

Kilkee swim is in a sheltered bay. Valentia swim is open sea and cross wind.

+1 to the sentiment earlier in this thread that safety in the swim in paramount. If there is even a slight chance that the conditions could endanger someone then having a RD who will have the balls to stick to the rules and make the call is golden. Yes it would suck to have trained for a tri only to do a duathlon but only arrogance would mouth about a call for safety.

npmurph

I am a swimmer and started doing triathlons last year. I have been doing the open sea races in Leinster for over 20 years. ( no wetsuits) .
The first race of the season is usually the first weekend in June and the water can be quite cold. Races are 1200 to 1500 m normally. But an open sea swim is never cancelled due to water temperature. Sure they can be cancelled in certain choppy/windy conditions but usually follows the support boats refusal to go out.
There are also a good number of weaker swimmers that do these events. I wonder could TI maybe liase with the open sea committee in relation to safety. As a swimmer I fail to sea any real danger if the water is a little cold or a little choppy when everyone is wearing wetsuits. Again I accept that there are certain conditions when a swim should be cancelled but in my opinion the bar is set way too low.
Cycing is my worst discipline but i have to get out there in training and learn to deal with the cold the wind and the rain. and from what I can see a lot of triathletes need to become more competent in the open water.
There you go...that's my two pence worth.

tunney

npmurph wrote: »

I am a swimmer and started doing triathlons last year. I have been doing the open sea races in Leinster for over 20 years. ( no wetsuits) .
The first race of the season is usually the first weekend in June and the water can be quite cold. Races are 1200 to 1500 m normally. But an open sea swim is never cancelled due to water temperature. Sure they can be cancelled in certain choppy/windy conditions but usually follows the support boats refusal to go out.
There are also a good number of weaker swimmers that do these events. I wonder could TI maybe liase with the open sea committee in relation to safety. As a swimmer I fail to sea any real danger if the water is a little cold or a little choppy when everyone is wearing wetsuits. Again I accept that there are certain conditions when a swim should be cancelled but in my opinion the bar is set way too low.
Cycing is my worst discipline but i have to get out there in training and learn to deal with the cold the wind and the rain. and from what I can see a lot of triathletes need to become more competent in the open water.
There you go...that's my two pence worth.

Given what I have seen about open water swimmers I'd have thought the run was your worst disciple #AllAboutThePercentageBodyFat

sconhome

npmurph wrote: »

I am a swimmer and started doing triathlons last year. I have been doing the open sea races in Leinster for over 20 years. ( no wetsuits) .
The first race of the season is usually the first weekend in June and the water can be quite cold. Races are 1200 to 1500 m normally. But an open sea swim is never cancelled due to water temperature. Sure they can be cancelled in certain choppy/windy conditions but usually follows the support boats refusal to go out.
There are also a good number of weaker swimmers that do these events. I wonder could TI maybe liase with the open sea committee in relation to safety. As a swimmer I fail to sea any real danger if the water is a little cold or a little choppy when everyone is wearing wetsuits. Again I accept that there are certain conditions when a swim should be cancelled but in my opinion the bar is set way too low.
Cycing is my worst discipline but i have to get out there in training and learn to deal with the cold the wind and the rain. and from what I can see a lot of triathletes need to become more competent in the open water.
There you go...that's my two pence worth.

It has nothing to do with TI the rules are decreed by the International Triathlon Union and enforced by the local governing bodies such as TI. There is no flexibility on the rules whatsoever.

The risk is less to do with the actual swim and more to do with the risk of hypothermia continuing to develop through the bike phase. (Winds & current aside).

npmurph

Given what I have seen about open water swimmers I'd have thought the run was your worst disciple

Not a very helpful comment but for the record did a 1:33 last year in the Dublin Half Marathon

The risk is less to do with the actual swim and more to do with the risk of hypothermia continuing to develop through the bike phase. (Winds & current aside).

Yea you see maybe it's just me but I don't really get that. If you find that you're cold after a swim would you not just have the option of putting a jacket on in transition . Surely you would know this from training etc. Anyway i know i won't win this so i will just accept that it is the way it is .

sconhome

npmurph wrote: »

Yea you see maybe it's just me but I don't really get that. If you find that you're cold after a swim would you not just have the option of putting a jacket on in transition . Surely you would know this from training etc. Anyway i know i won't win this so i will just accept that it is the way it is .

Its not about winning or losing an argument about this. It's a discussion that gets stuck in an endless loop.

I agree with you about sticking a jacket on. The problem with hypothermia is you won't know to stick the jacket on when its needed as your decision making processes are affected.

longshank

npmurph wrote: »

I am a swimmer and started doing triathlons last year. I have been doing the open sea races in Leinster for over 20 years. ( no wetsuits) .
The first race of the season is usually the first weekend in June and the water can be quite cold. Races are 1200 to 1500 m normally. But an open sea swim is never cancelled due to water temperature. Sure they can be cancelled in certain choppy/windy conditions but usually follows the support boats refusal to go out.
There are also a good number of weaker swimmers that do these events. I wonder could TI maybe liase with the open sea committee in relation to safety. As a swimmer I fail to sea any real danger if the water is a little cold or a little choppy when everyone is wearing wetsuits. Again I accept that there are certain conditions when a swim should be cancelled but in my opinion the bar is set way too low.
Cycing is my worst discipline but i have to get out there in training and learn to deal with the cold the wind and the rain. and from what I can see a lot of triathletes need to become more competent in the open water.
There you go...that's my two pence worth.

Jacket on in transition WTF???
Any OW swimming events I've seen haven't quite been the same mass participation events that triathlons are (e.g. 500 at Valentia) and I think that does change the risk assessment a bit. And long may triathlon remain mass participation i.e. no ow swim qualification requirement.
And lets face it Tunney has a point about body composition of OW swimmers v triathletes!

El Director

longshank wrote: »

..... Tunney has a point about body composition of OW swimmers v triathletes!

Oh god, here we go, this thread could now be split 3 ways!

BTH

El Director wrote: »

Oh god, here we go, this thread could now be split 3 ways!

Yeah, which category dos Tunney fit into??

tunney

BTH wrote: »

Yeah, which category dos Tunney fit into??

Depends on the categories.

tunney

npmurph wrote: »

I am a swimmer and started doing triathlons last year. I have been doing the open sea races in Leinster for over 20 years. ( no wetsuits) .
The first race of the season is usually the first weekend in June and the water can be quite cold. Races are 1200 to 1500 m normally. But an open sea swim is never cancelled due to water temperature. Sure they can be cancelled in certain choppy/windy conditions but usually follows the support boats refusal to go out.
There are also a good number of weaker swimmers that do these events. I wonder could TI maybe liase with the open sea committee in relation to safety. As a swimmer I fail to sea any real danger if the water is a little cold or a little choppy when everyone is wearing wetsuits. Again I accept that there are certain conditions when a swim should be cancelled but in my opinion the bar is set way too low.
Cycing is my worst discipline but i have to get out there in training and learn to deal with the cold the wind and the rain. and from what I can see a lot of triathletes need to become more competent in the open water.
There you go...that's my two pence worth.

Years ago I got friendly with a lad who would describe himself as an open water swimmer who did triathlons, (or at some stages in his life a triathlete that did open water swims). Welsh lad, funny guy. Proper open water swimmer, swimming this channel and that channel, various landmark swims.

On a few training camps with him before, usually Italy. On the bike when we were on the flats all was good, a solid rouleur. When the road when skyward as often it did he'd be shelled out the back straight away as he was a "robust" lad. On the descents he'd make some time up cause he could descend like a demon (not because of his weight just because he was a great bike handler with no fear). When we ran together. Actually we didn't because he'd be dropped within minutes, cause of the "insulation" as he would put it. When we swam in the pool we'd be similar and when we swam in the sea the same too (roughly). Difference being I'd have stayed in 20-30 minutes get out shivering and need a towel and a warm drink (Italy in spring the sea isn't that warm). He stay in much longer. Oh and I wore a wetsuit, he wouldn't.

Now when he went back to being an open water swimmer who did the odd tri and was going for the channel again his first task was to put on weight........

Triathletes aren't known for their "insulation".

npmurph wrote: »

Not a very helpful comment but for the record did a 1:33 last year in the Dublin Half Marathon

May not be helpful to you but it doesn't mean its not true.
I will resist the temptation to bring this thread into four topics.

npmurph wrote: »

Yea you see maybe it's just me but I don't really get that. If you find that you're cold after a swim would you not just have the option of putting a jacket on in transition . Surely you would know this from training etc. Anyway i know i won't win this so i will just accept that it is the way it is .

IM Frankfurt 2011. Normally a non wetsuit swim with the temperatures in the 30s. This year it was unexpectedly very cold and wet (you might remember this was the year that all the euro IMs were cool and the Irish IM record was set in Austria 70.30) Meant fast times if you were prepared and had winter gear with you. Misery if you didn't. The experienced people did. The newbies didn't. I'd imagine the same for a sprint like Valentia, the fast lads were ready to HTFU and prepared for the conditions, the people in over their heads in those conditions didn't.

longshank

El Director wrote: »

Oh god, here we go, this thread could now be split 3 ways!

beats going around in circles!

harringtonp

npmurph wrote: »

Yea you see maybe it's just me but I don't really get that. If you find that you're cold after a swim would you not just have the option of putting a jacket on in transition . Surely you would know this from training etc. Anyway i know i won't win this so i will just accept that it is the way it is .

International Triathlon Rule 17.11 states "No extra clothing beyond the single underlayer is allowed on the bike and run legs. This is in the interest of aerodynamics, neat dress and most importantly attractiveness for potential sponsors"

tunney

harringtonp wrote: »

International Triathlon Rule 17.11 states "No extra clothing beyond the single underlayer is allowed on the bike and run legs. This is in the interest of aerodynamics, neat dress and most importantly attractiveness for potential sponsors"

17.11. Paratriathlon TRI 1 Swimming Conduct/Equipment
a.) Athlete may only use one binding around the legs in any in position. The binding will
be 10cm in width as a maximum.
b.) The use of wetsuit bottoms is always permitted

I know some of the OW swimmers can't run very fast but I don't think thats because they don't have legs.

sconhome

harringtonp wrote: »

International Triathlon Rule 17.11 states "No extra clothing beyond the single underlayer is allowed on the bike and run legs. This is in the interest of aerodynamics, neat dress and most importantly attractiveness for potential sponsors"

I love rules!! Can I have a copy of that rule book please?!

I'd say its like the Velominati of the Triathlon world.