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Enda Kenny in Davos
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25-01-2013 1:57pm#1
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MintyDoris wrote: »I would bet a large amount of money that he cares much more about what he is going to have with his cup of tea tonight than what the general public thinks of his preformance as Taoiseach. As far as I am concerned he doesn't give a flying fcuk what the average Irish person thinks
You're not serious are you?
Come on, every single TD care about the general public think and to pretend otherwise seems daft.
One reason...wait for it...
To be elected and re-elected.
You don't get to be a TD since 1975 by not giving "flying f**k" about the average Irish person, and that goes for all of them. The minute they actually do stop giving a damn, they often end up, not elected.0 -
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The Waltzing Consumer wrote: » You're not serious are you?
Come on, every single TD care about the general public think and to pretend otherwise seems daft.
One reason...wait for it...
To be elected and re-elected.
You don't get to be a TD since 1975 by not giving "flying f**k" about the average Irish person, and that goes for all of them. The minute they actually do stop giving a damn, they often end up, not elected.
You don't really think the current lot plan to be re-elected do you?
Kenny, Gilmore and the rest of the senior "leadership" will take the money and run, just as Cowen and co did before them.0 -
Kaiser2000 wrote: »You don't really think the current lot plan to be re-elected do you?
Kenny, Gilmore and the rest of the senior "leadership" will take the money and run, just as Cowen and co did before them.
That sounds more like a conspiracy theory to be fair. But to try and be open, I would welcome a bit more detail. Is the basic conspiracy that senior leadership, involving two political parties, with TDs who have served for decades, and others who have only recently joined politics, conspired to get into Government just so they could say "f**k the average people" and run away at the next election. So pretty much, we have had a conspiracy since the mid 70s, decades and decades of planning, so they can have 4 years in Government, and then run away?
I am going to be honest, thats a pretty gay conspiracy.0 -
The Waltzing Consumer wrote: » You're not serious are you?
Come on, every single TD care about the general public think and to pretend otherwise seems daft.
One reason...wait for it...
To be elected and re-elected.
You don't get to be a TD since 1975 by not giving "flying f**k" about the average Irish person, and that goes for all of them. The minute they actually do stop giving a damn, they often end up, not elected.
Sorry let me be clear. He (or his PR team who I personally believe are behind 99% of his public persona) pretends to care very much about the opinion of every voter. However, what he is doing to protecting his vote with the people who he knows will vote for him. Enda gives a great impression of being a caring and morally driven man when I think its naive to accept this at face value.
For example, I reckon that Enda has not and will not discuss the abortion issue as he knows a lot of his supporters hold very religious views and in an effort to keep those votes will not rock the boat and give these people a reason to stop voting for him. I also beleive this tack is what has kept him in his TD role to date
Also, I can't quite accept that James Reilly cares about the general national wide Irish opinion of his perforamance. I mean he got his two health centres in his own constituancy and that was that. Tough luck to the needs of the rest of the country who require the services.0 -
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The Waltzing Consumer wrote: » You're not serious are you?
Come on, every single TD care about the general public think and to pretend otherwise seems daft.
One reason...wait for it...
To be elected and re-elected.
You don't get to be a TD since 1975 by not giving "flying f**k" about the average Irish person, and that goes for all of them. The minute they actually do stop giving a damn, they often end up, not elected.
I used to think the same as you, I was wrong
They care about one particular section of the general public, the section that votes, the rest they systematically abuse, not they(as in the individual politician)as such, the system abuses them, the system they regulate
Take an everyday example
A 23 year old man gets a two year suspended sentence, a man with 50 previous convictions....general uproar from the public, the description "scumbag" will be bandied about...that man's life is destined to end in addiction/prison/suicide, tragically, the chances of that man turning his life around is extremely slim...
Where am I going with this and what has it to do with the thread...
Well go back to the man's youth, high probability of a severely dysfunctional upbringing, because his mother had him in her teens to secure local authority housing and child allowances, because she is a teen with a poor education she know no better, three kids on and no help to raise her kids leaves her mentally weak, slips into addiction, abandons her kids to the streets, who then grow up with no education, in a world where everyone outside their particular estate seem loaded, fills these kids with a mix of hatred/lack of respect/anger etc etc, go on to get convicted 50 times (leaving 50 victims in his wake)....but crucially on each occasion receive "Free Legal aid"(those solicitors are voters) at each conviction...that man has probably generated over €150,000 in legal fees in a six year period...multiply that by say 200 other kids in similar circumstances over the same period...you begin to get the picture
That estate he came from is home to 40 QUANGO's employing a lot of people...all government employees( also voters) as such...who assist the HSE (filled with voters)in "helping" these people..we create a training body to help kids who fall out of the educational system...call it FAS give it €1bn per year to "help" these kids...FAS employs a whole heap of people, (or voters)....of course the kicker is these organisations depend on the continuing existence of these tragic circumstances to justify their existence...
I realise how tragic that picture I just painted is, but it was once described to me that "Poverty in this country is a business"...I felt sick that I had been a member of a political party that governed in such a way...
You do not survive that length of time in politics with knowing how to play the system...0 -
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The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »Okay. So tackling your fist paragraph, your saying Enda pretends to care, implying he actually doesn't. Yet, he has managed to con his electorate for past few decades. That's pretty much the conspiracy right? Not based on any facts, just your belief he is, well, a con-artist.
Second paragraph. Well, I am pro-choice but as many people in the politics forum have written in last few weeks, there is certainly a large part of rural Ireland who are not. Regarding Enda, for someone who has not and will not discuss abortion, he is doing a really lousy job as leader of Govenment as it has been in media spotlight for a long time now, and we even had hearings very recently, expert report was published and many members of his Government speaking out, giving opinions etc. So basically, all I can take from that is you probably think he is a terrible leader because this is a guy who wants to avoid abortion at all costs, but then his Government is doing a huge amount of work in the public eye regarding legislating for abortion.
You like the idea of a conspiracy, don't you? Yes, I believe Enda and the party he leads are playing a game. I am not sure if all TDs are playing this 'game' but lets for a moment say that they aren't. Personally, I am not really a fan of Luke Flanagan. I think a lot of what he comes out with and how he acts is really not appropriate for a TD. However he has passion and he speaks eloquently. That I admire. Stephen Donnelly is another example. He speaks in an educated and highly professional manner. Mary Lou McDonald is another example. A motivational speaker who is not afraid to to speak her mind and to call out the government when they trot out the same old lines. That is what Enda has none of. He has no flair, no passion. He has no personality, no empathy for the real problems of real people in this country and sure why would he? The sheer amount of money he is making puts him so out of touch with the people he is supposed to represent. He says nothing and does nothing that will rock the boat to his core group of voters who have helped to ensure he has stayed in the Dail in some capacity. He plays the game well. My belief is based on what I see of Mr Kenny. I don't feel he has accomplished anything of real note on a national level during his career as a politician. I am not sure what you mean by my posts not being based on facts All I am doing is giving my opinion
Exactly, he won't allow himself to be seen to be a part of the whole 'nasty' business of abortion debate. He is smart enough to know he will alienate people if he does that and these people are an important part of keeping him where he is.
Sadly, I think there are enough 'sheeple' in this country that he will continue as he is and if you were to ask around parts of Mayo, you will still hear the same thing - 'Ah Enda, a great man. Done a lot for these parts' My problem is that as the leader of this country and my supposed representative to the whole world, I cringe everytime I hear his voice. He and his behaviour in no way represent me as an Irish citizen.0 -
MintyDoris wrote: »You like the idea of a conspiracy, don't you? Yes, I believe Enda and the party he leads are playing a game. I am not sure if all TDs are playing this 'game' but lets for a moment say that they aren't. Personally, I am not really a fan of Luke Flanagan. I think a lot of what he comes out with and how he acts is really not appropriate for a TD. However he has passion and he speaks eloquently. That I admire. Stephen Donnelly is another example. He speaks in an educated and highly professional manner. Mary Lou McDonald is another example. A motivational speaker who is not afraid to to speak her mind and to call out the government when they trot out the same old lines. That is what Enda has none of. He has no flair, no passion. He has no personality, no empathy for the real problems of real people in this country and sure why would he? The sheer amount of money he is making puts him so out of touch with the people he is supposed to represent. He says nothing and does nothing that will rock the boat to his core group of voters who have helped to ensure he has stayed in the Dail in some capacity. He plays the game well. My belief is based on what I see of Mr Kenny. I don't feel he has accomplished anything of real note on a national level during his career as a politician. I am not sure what you mean by my posts not being based on facts All I am doing is giving my opinion
Fair enough, it is your opinion.
You did say regarding Enda "He (or his PR team who I personally believe are behind 99% of his public persona)". So my point is, you seem to be basing this argument on public remarks and interviews. Indeed this seems to be strengthened when you compare Enda to very new TDs and their public persona. My only counter point with this is, I would be very critical of ALL TDs and their public remarks as they would certainly not be natural and very scripted as much as much as Endas.
I would also say that these public statements/interviews that you are judging are only a tiny % of what TDs actually do.
Lastly, context. It is a million times easier to be sitting in opposition giving grandiose and passionate speeches when there is no decisions to be made and no responsibility for these decisions.
Enda: Has to make speeches regarding deficits, attempts at balancing books and basically, cutting the cloth which always is going to have an effect on some part of the population.
Mary-Lou/Stephen/Ming: They don't have to do this. I actually like Stephen Donnelly and think he is very realistic and capable politican. As for Mary Lou, well no, empty populist, money grows on trees nonsense.0 -
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The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »Fair enough, it is your opinion.
You did say regarding Enda "He (or his PR team who I personally believe are behind 99% of his public persona)". So my point is, you seem to be basing this argument on public remarks and interviews. Indeed this seems to be strengthened when you compare Enda to very new TDs and their public persona. My only counter point with this is, I would be very critical of ALL TDs and their public remarks as they would certainly not be natural and very scripted as much as much as Endas.
Are you saying that other TDs have a better or worse public persona that Enda Kenny? Certainly a difference when comparing the likes of Stephen Donnelly and Enda Kenny. There is just no comparison regarding a switched on and educated public persona ... and EndaThe Waltzing Consumer wrote: »I would also say that these public statements/interviews that you are judging are only a tiny % of what TDs actually do.
Short of meeting them in person, I don't really understand what else I am supposed to base it on I watch Dail debates and televised debates, I read the newspapers. However I also base my opinion on things that TDs don't do such as Enda refusing to enter into a televised election debate just because Vincent Browne was to host the show. Indeed, even after Mr Browne offered to step down as host in order for Enda to participate, Enda still refused. It reminded me of a petulant child. A man who is supposed to be able to lead our country could not put a personal grievence behind him to take part in something that I consider part of his job. And even further, after his election, despite numerous invites from TV3 to take part in debates, he still refuses. I don't know where he gets off! It's as if he feels it's below himThe Waltzing Consumer wrote: »Lastly, context. It is a million times easier to be sitting in opposition giving grandiose and passionate speeches when there is no decisions to be made and no responsibility for these decisions.
Enda: Has to make speeches regarding deficits, attempts at balancing books and basically, cutting the cloth which always is going to have an effect on some part of the population.
Mary-Lou/Stephen/Ming: They don't have to do this. I actually like Stephen Donnelly and think he is very realistic and capable politican. As for Mary Lou, well no, empty populist, money grows on trees nonsense.
What would be the point in Mary-Lou/Stephen/Ming being a TD if they dont do this?! The reason for an opposition is to debate and to have an open dialogue with the current government regarding state matters. Do you think it was acceptable for Eamonn Gilmore to be permitted to make a comment asking Sinn Fein how many bodies are buried up in the Wicklow Mountains because of them? Hardly professional conduct and completely inappropriate behaviour in the Dail and in all fairness a comment of similar nature has not been made by any other TD! It's become farcical!
Enda sat in opposition for many years. Don't forget Labour and Fine Gael were elected by the people to the majority in the Dail because of their work and promises made to the people of Ireland while in opposition. It was this work and these promises that offered people a glimpse of hope for change and the 5 point plan of promises during the run up to election
When I bring up Mary-Lou, I am not refering to what she says - I am refering to how she presents herself. Her speeches, and I am particularly refering of the speech she gave in the Dail on Budget Day are impassioned, structured and well written. Factually based and without flight and fancy.
If you would like an example of how I believe a Taoiseach should be able to speak, have a look at Stephen Donnelly speaking to the Public Interest Directors from Bank of Ireland and AIB, Joe Walsh and Tom Consadine and Chairman Ciaran Lynch. Its a confrontational and sensitive matter and he was quite clearly very clued in on the subject matter. An excellent example of a public speaker0 -
MintyDoris wrote: »Are you saying that other TDs have a better or worse public persona that Enda Kenny? Certainly a difference when comparing the likes of Stephen Donnelly and Enda Kenny. There is just no comparison regarding a switched on and educated public persona ... and Enda
Short of meeting them in person, I don't really understand what else I am supposed to base it on I watch Dail debates and televised debates, I read the newspapers. However I also base my opinion on things that TDs don't do such as Enda refusing to enter into a televised election debate just because Vincent Browne was to host the show. Indeed, even after Mr Browne offered to step down as host in order for Enda to participate, Enda still refused. It reminded me of a petulant child. A man who is supposed to be able to lead our country could not put a personal grievence behind him to take part in something that I consider part of his job. And even further, after his election, despite numerous invites from TV3 to take part in debates, he still refuses. I don't know where he gets off! It's as if he feels it's below him
What would be the point in Mary-Lou/Stephen/Ming being a TD if they dont do this?! The reason for an opposition is to debate and to have an open dialogue with the current government regarding state matters. Do you think it was acceptable for Eamonn Gilmore to be permitted to make a comment asking Sinn Fein how many bodies are buried up in the Wicklow Mountains because of them? Hardly professional conduct and completely inappropriate behaviour in the Dail and in all fairness a comment of similar nature has not been made by any other TD! It's become farcical!
Enda sat in opposition for many years. Don't forget Labour and Fine Gael were elected by the people to the majority in the Dail because of their work and promises made to the people of Ireland while in opposition. It was this work and these promises that offered people a glimpse of hope for change and the 5 point plan of promises during the run up to election
When I bring up Mary-Lou, I am not refering to what she says - I am refering to how she presents herself. Her speeches, and I am particularly refering of the speech she gave in the Dail on Budget Day are impassioned, structured and well written. Factually based and without flight and fancy.
If you would like an example of how I believe a Taoiseach should be able to speak, have a look at Stephen Donnelly speaking to the Public Interest Directors from Bank of Ireland and AIB, Joe Walsh and Tom Consadine and Chairman Ciaran Lynch. Its a confrontational and sensitive matter and he was quite clearly very clued in on the subject matter. An excellent example of a public speaker
You main point seems to be that Kenny is not a good public speaker and has no charisma.
Remember our last Taoiseach that had charisma, look at where that got us
Look at inspirational politicians like Obama, he may be able to talk the talk but he is not getting much done in the US
As long as Kenny can manage Government and deal with Europe I really don't care how little flare he has.0 -
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The Waltzing Consumer wrote: » You're not serious are you?
Come on, every single TD care about the general public think and to pretend otherwise seems daft.
Just came across a perfect example how every TD cares about general public:
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/new-projects-left-stalled-as-two-hospitals-fasttracked-by-minister-3369054.html
It would seem that unless you are in his constituency you are not regarded as general pubic than!0 -
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Peanut2011 wrote: »Just came across a perfect example how every TD cares about general public:
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/new-projects-left-stalled-as-two-hospitals-fasttracked-by-minister-3369054.html
It would seem that unless you are in his constituency you are not regarded as general pubic than!
You forgot to quote my next sentence
The whole reason I said TDs do care about people i.e. voters because of elections and being elected. So your example does pretty much back my own opinion anyway :pac: 0 -
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The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »
You forgot to quote my next sentence The whole reason I said TDs do care about people i.e. voters because of elections and being elected. So your example does pretty much back my own opinion anyway :pac:
The difference being their constituent opposed to general public. What is good for Mayo or Dublin may not be good for whole country, but that does not matter.0 -
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