query on new lodgement machines

northwestramble

Hi,
I have been using the new automated machines in branches recently and haveto say they seem very handy and easy to use. 
I also noticed that many of the branches, onlytake cash 2 or 3 days a week at the counter and customers are told to use the machines. That got me wondering. 


1. In the event that a machine is down, will the bank refuse to accept mycash if I go in to lodge it and it is not one of the days they are due to takecash behind the counter? Or you have a procedure that when the machines are down, staff are allowed accept cash and cheques at the counter.


2. In the event that the machine cannot connect to the banks systems,some network problem for example. Do the machines stop working, or continue toaccept cash and cheques and this is then later updated to a customer’s account. If so, how long does it take to happen, will it be done at close of business that day?


3. In the event that the machines do stay on, even with no networkconnection. What would happen if the machine were then to crash and the memory or storage details were wiped, say for example a power surge caused a short circuit, or a general fault in the machine. If this were to happen, would this then mean that Bank of Ireland has a machine full of cash with no record of what customers lodged it?

Bank of Ireland: Tara

Hi northwestramble,

Thank for posting.

We are delighted to hear you find the new Lodgement ATMs convenient to use.

I've sent your queries on to our Branch Network Team and will come back to you as soon as possible.

Thanks again for your feedback.
Tara

northwestramble

Hi Tara
Thank you for passing it on. Look forward to hearing the reply. While it is great to have the new service, it would also be important that the correct checks and balances are in place for when technology fails. I am sure that Bank of Ireland would not have rolled it out without it, but just nice to have to have it confirmed.

dahamsta

I see your branch in Douglas is removing the older Quick Lodge machine. What are business customers supposed to do now, in light of your refusal to issue debit cards to business customers? Is this policy changing?

Bank of Ireland: Linda

Hi dahamsta,

If you are referring to the lodgement box, they will be replaced with the lodgement atm machine which will still allow lodgements to your business account. You can apply for a business quick-lodge card through your relationship manager in your branch who can also discuss if your account is eligible for a Visa Debit card.

Thanks
Linda

Bank of Ireland: Tara

Hi northwestramble,

Thanks for your patience.

In the unlikely event that one of the Lodgement ATMs experiences any technical difficulties, it is taken out of service immediately. This is then logged as a high priority with our Technical Team to ensure it is back online as soon as possible. If this was to occur in a branch on a day cash services are unavailable, temporary measures would be put in place to accommodate customers who need to make a lodgement.

For reasons of confidentiality and security, we cannot go into detail on how the machine records lodgements but please be assured we have extra checks and procedures in place to ensure that information is not lost.

I understand this doesn't answer your specific questions however, as mentioned above, we are restricted on the level of information we can disclose.

Thanks
Tara

northwestramble

Hi Tara
Thank you for the reply. I can understand you have some concerns on security. From what you were saying is very reassuring. Would it be fair to say that the summary below is correct. 


1. In the event that a machine is down, will the bank refuse to accept mycash if I go in to lodge it and it is not one of the days they are due to take cash behind the counter? Or you have a procedure that when the machines are down, staff are allowed accept cash and cheques at the counter.
Answer: The bank will guarantee in the event that the machine is not working, staff will accept lodgements at the counters.

2. In the event that the machine cannot connect to the banks systems,some network problem for example. Do the machines stop working, or continue to accept cash and cheques and this is then later updated to a customer’s account. If so, how long does it take to happen, will it be done at close of business that day. 
Answer: The machines are shut down and no lodgements are accepted. Any transactions in process would be credited to the customers account at close of business. 


3. In the event that the machines do stay on, even with no network connection. What would happen if the machine were then to crash and the memory or storage details were wiped, say for example a power surge caused a short circuit, or a general fault in the machine. If this were to happen, would this then mean that Bank of Ireland has a machine full of cash with no record of what customers lodged it?

Answer: This would not happen as the machines are turned off as soon as a problem is found, and should something happen, the bank has a way to allocate all money to the correct account. 

Bank of Ireland: Tara

Hi northwestramble,

Thank you for your understanding. 

My previous response is really as much as we can go into. We do understand your concerns and again we would like to reassure you that we do have procedures in place to ensure there would be minimal impact to our customers and no loss of information in the unlikely event of this scenario occurring.

Thanks
Tara

northwestramble

Hi Tara
I was just trying to clarify the rather vague answer with specifics. I like to fully understand what a bank says. Under EU Law, my understanding is that all instructions to customers have to be easy to understand and be fully clear on what is been offered. 
I can dig out the exact case law if required, however it would be much simpler if you might simply confirm the following. 

For question 1: 

(a)If the machines are not working then bank of Ireland guarantee to always accept lodgements at the counters during normal business hours. 

(b) If that is not the case, then bank of ireland are saying that  at times bank of ireland cannot carry out it normal banking function to accept lodgements 

Is it a or b ? 

For Question 2
(a) When a fault is detected,  the staff in the branch are instructed to turn off the machine as soon as they are aware of any fault. Any transactions that were in process during the fault are allocated to the customers accounts at close of business that day, as any normal lodgement would have been. 

(b) When a fault is detected,  the staff in the branch are instructed to turn off the machine as soon as they are aware of any fault. Any transactions that were in process during the fault are allocated to the customers accounts at some time in the future and bank of Ireland gives no guarantee on a time frame for when these will be allocated to a customers account. 

Is is a or b ? 

I think that it is nice and simple and clear, and no security concerns to answer a or b to both of the questions above. 

If you feel there is any security concern in answers a or b to either of the questions above, then maybe you might let me know who I can contact to find out what BOI security concerns are to answers 2 simple questions.  Otherwise it is starting to look like there is a few things not fully worked out yet within BOI for using these machines. 

I just like to be fully aware of any restrictions around using these machines. I do not have a problem if the services will not be available at times, but at least I will know what happens and what to expect in the event of something going wrong.  Do you think that is an unreasonable request ?

Bank of Ireland: Tara

Hi northwestramble,

We strive to maintain these devices at optimum levels of functionality. As mentioned previously, procedures would be put in place and staff will endeavour to assist customers to ensure minimal disruption and inconvenience in the rare event of a device being unavailable. In order to protect our customers and system security, we cannot go into any further details.

Thanks again for taking the time to post.
Tara

northwestramble

Hi Tara
I am at a little loss as to why Bank of Ireland cannot answer A or B to two simple questions. What way the service works and what level of service do you provide when it fails. 

Under "The European Communities(Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts) Regulations" it states that all terms of business must be
• Fair
• Written in simple language that can be easily understood
• Not biased against the consumer

Could you provide me with a link to the terms and conditions that the new banking machines operate under. This way, I can then see if they comply with "The European Communities (Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts) Regulations" and it would help me understand the terms of business these new machines operate under. It would also help clear up how the level of service they provide may be different than the normal banking service currently provided by BOI.

I assume that the T&C's for customers is not a security concern. 

Based on the answer Bank of Ireland is providing I would be lead to draw the following conclusion. 

Question 1: answer is b. The bank do not give any commitment to accept  lodgements when a machine fails, thus leaving customers without this service in certain situations.

Question 2: answer is b.  Bank of Ireland cannot answer this as each is dealt with a case by case basis and give no commitment on when money will reach a customers account.

northwestramble

Hi Tara 
What may also help is if BOI can confirm that the new machines meet the T&C's outlined for current accounts. 
http://personalbanking.bankofireland.com/fs/doc/wysiwyg/Terms%20&%20Conditions%20PCA%20WEB.pdf

In particular to section 6.4, which talks about to cut-off time (my understanding this relates to close of business)  and 
6.9 which relates to euro cash lodgements been immediately credited to a customers account. 


Could Bank of Ireland  confirm what sections, if any, that the new machines affect or do not meet. I assume as there is no specific mention to the machines (there is one for lodgement boxes with different T&C's) that the machines fall under the general agreements as in doing the lodgement at the counter.  Is this the case ? 

I guess this also opens up the following questions 

1. Should the T&C's not have been updated to reflect the roll out of the new machines ?
2. Would  BOI be in breach of the T&C's provided to customers if these machines do not provide the same level as service as the counter ?
3. If yes to question 2 , what course of action/rights does a customer have who may have been affected by a failure of BOI to honor the T&C's ?

Bank of Ireland: Tara

Hi northwestramble,

We appreciate the time you have invested in your posts and understand your concerns. Regrettably we cannot comment further on this.

Also, just for your information, the most up to date terms and conditions for the personal current account can be accessed here.

Many thanks again for taking the time to post.
Tara

northwestramble

Hi Tara

Thank you for the updated Terms and conditions, that does indeed help explain about the new machines. It might be an idea to remove the old ones from your website and set up a redirect to the latest version, helping avoid confusion.  

I see the new machines do not give customers the same level of service as over the counter, but are moved into the same section as lodgement boxes as outlined in the new T&C's.  

I also see that is is possible that a cheque lodged using the new machines could in theory sit there for a week before been removed, there is no guarantee given in the T&C as to a time frame. 

Customers are also now accepting risk of loss of non euro cash lodgements when using the new machines in the event of something going wrong with the machine. That is a quiet a large risk to put on customers when they do not have an alternative. 

I understand why that condition is there, however it is about transparency and service been provided.  Bank of Ireland are suggesting that the machines offer the same level as doing the transaction over the desk, but from the T&C's that is not the case, you have less guarantee about your lodgement, unless it is euro cash. 

On the plus side Section 8.3 under the new T&C's, states that when you make a cash lodgement it is immediately credited to your account.  


So if you lodge euro cash you are OK, otherwise you accept full risk for any problems when using the machine, in such cases you are best to come back on a day that the counter is open to accept such non cash lodgements to ensure that as a customer you get the best level of guarantee from the bank.

wmpdd3

northwestramble wrote: »

Hi Tara

Thank you for the updated Terms and conditions, that does indeed help explain about the new machines. It might be an idea to remove the old ones from your website and set up a redirect to the latest version, helping avoid confusion.  

I see the new machines do not give customers the same level of service as over the counter, but are moved into the same section as lodgement boxes as outlined in the new T&C's.  

I also see that is is possible that a cheque lodged using the new machines could in theory sit there for a week before been removed, there is no guarantee given in the T&C as to a time frame. 

Customers are also now accepting risk of loss of non euro cash lodgements when using the new machines in the event of something going wrong with the machine. That is a quiet a large risk to put on customers when they do not have an alternative. 

I understand why that condition is there, however it is about transparency and service been provided.  Bank of Ireland are suggesting that the machines offer the same level as doing the transaction over the desk, but from the T&C's that is not the case, you have less guarantee about your lodgement, unless it is euro cash. 

On the plus side Section 8.3 under the new T&C's, states that when you make a cash lodgement it is immediately credited to your account.  


So if you lodge euro cash you are OK, otherwise you accept full risk for any problems when using the machine, in such cases you are best to come back on a day that the counter is open to accept such non cash lodgements to ensure that as a customer you get the best level of guarantee from the bank.

Very interesting points raised above, it is clear from speaking to other customers in branch that customer mostly think they are covered under the same t&c when using the machines as they would be doing a transaction over the counter, when it is quiet clear, they are not.

amdublin

Oh sweet Jesus, ifs buts and maybes.

wmpdd3

amdublin wrote: »

Oh sweet Jesus, ifs buts and maybes.

I give it 3 months before someone is on here looking for a missing lodgement.

amdublin

Yeah and it'll be resolved quickly am sure.

northwestramble

I hope that BOI Management have instructed staff in the branches to inform customers if they ask is there any differences between using the counter and the machine, that they tell the customers, if they lodge anything other than euro cash, they are not getting the same level of service or guarantees from BOI.   

It would be great to have even a little warning up beside the machines, so that customers are fully aware of it, rather than it be buried in a sub section in the T&C's.

amdublin

I think you are making mountains out of molehills.

Skatedude

amdublin wrote: »

I think you are making mountains out of molehills.

You have obviously never had to chase up missing lodgements.

Bank of Ireland: Linda

Hi Skatedude,

Is there anything we may be able to help you with here?

Thanks
Linda