Voting at age 16, trouble ahead?

My name is URL

Sinfonia wrote: »

Why are people saying that 16 & 17 year olds would vote strongly for Sinn Féin?

Especially considering FG have the most active and sizable youth wing of any political party in the country...

Eve_Dublin

Artful_Badger wrote: »

A 16 year old with an interest will make a more informed decision than a 50 year old without an interest. It really has nothing to do with age. So if you're of age to start contributing to society then you're of age to get a say.

If people want people to be more mature and informed when voting then education is where you start, not age restrictions.

16 years olds generally have 2 or 3 more years of secondary education to get through though. If education is the most crucial deciding factor on whether you can make an informed decision, then they've a few more years to go yet.


Maturity generally comes with age. That's a fact.

Conmaicne Mara

Voting age should be raised to 21, and voting made compulsory for every citizen with a €500 fine for not voting without an agreed get out like medical issue, out of the country, crucial work etc.

Sorry, but teenagers are too impressionable generally. There are idiots of all age brackets but I am still against lowering the voting age.

Eve_Dublin

My name is URL wrote: »

It's an awful idea because people will choose to vote for a party you don't like?

What's the point in basing it on age at all if that's the case? Why not base it on the degree of education a person has, or on employment history, or on tax records? Ensure that the only ones allowed to vote are people that will vote in a similar way to yourself...

That was a joke.


They're not mature enough to vote. They live at home with their parents, have no real obligations, haven't finished formal education and have not reached adulthood. That's why they shouldn't be able to vote.

_rebelkid

_rebelkid wrote: »

Personally, I would be in favor of the lowering, but would be very tentative about the timing of when it is enforced. There are a few "big decisions" that will need to be voted on in the next 3/4 years, so when it would be put in place would be a worry.

That's a bit ridiculous. Either they can handle voting or they can't. Saying "you can vote when all the important things are out of the way" is daft

Sinfonia

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

and voting made compulsory for every citizen

Why?

The Road Runner

I reckon at 16 most would vote the same as their parents or group of friends are voting

Conmaicne Mara

Sinfonia wrote: »

Why?

To combat disgracefully low turn outs.

Galwayguy35

Best to keep it at 18 I think.

Most 16 year olds wouldn't have a clue who to vote for.

My name is URL

Eve_Dublin wrote: »

That was a joke.


They're not mature enough to vote. They live at home with their parents, have no real obligations, haven't finished formal education and have not reached adulthood. That's why they shouldn't be able to vote.

But that's the thing, apart from the reaching of adulthood, what you say doesn't apply to every 17 year old.

I started college when I had just turned 17, was living on my own away from home and held down an evening job to pay my way. There are thousands of 17 year olds in that same position today.

They should have chance to vote if they wish to do so. I mean there are 30 year olds still living at home, some of whom have no formal education and rely on state handouts to survive.. and they are encouraged to vote.

I just don't see the point in denying every single 17 year old the right to exercise a democratic duty. As has been said already, those with no interest in politics are unlikely to bother voting. But if there are even a few 17 yo's that want to make an informed decision and vote accordingly they shouldn't be prohibited from doing so.

starlings

Dean0088 wrote: »

The Constitutional Convention being held this weekend just voted in favor of lowering the voting age to sixteen.



http://jrnl.ie/771334

I'm 21 now and and fairly interested in politics, current affairs and so on.

I remember thinking when I was sixteen that I should have been allowed vote. Now however, I'm completely against it.

Looking back I remember how immature I was - often believing stupid statements and promises made by both sides but in particular the hard left.

I'm sure there are sixteen year old's mature enough to cast a vote they truly believe in - but, in general, it's too young for many still going through the normal teen rebellion crap.

I could see Sinn Fein in particular targeting these voters with patriotic **** as they already do with their own youth organisations and others aligned with them.

What think ye, AH? Should the nippers be allowed vote after the Junior Cert is over and done with?

Sinn Féin were delighted that women (over 30 only) got the vote as it increased their mandate (:)) in 1918. I'd imagine all parties would be falling over themselves to impress the 16-18 year olds. There will be some serious cringing afoot.

OCorcrainn

Quazzie wrote: »

I can see this resulting in a huge surge in votes for SF

Why do you only mention Sinn Féin in particular?

Eve_Dublin wrote: »

And this is why it's an awful idea.

Why is the prospect of an increase in Sinn Féin's vote so awful for you? Would you rather see FF or the current shower back again, or are you one of those many Irish people with the memory span of a goldfish?

Sinfonia

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

To combat disgracefully low turn outs.

What's the problem with low voter turnout?

Let's say I had a strong (and hopefully well-informed) opinion on what decision should be made in an election or referendum; well I would likely make sure I voted.
If I didn't care either way what would be the point of my vote?

I don't know what the benefits of a bunch of extra spoiled votes are.

Earthhorse

So 16 year olds will now be able to consent to be f*cked by the government but not by me?

Where's the sense in this?

Quazzie

OCorcrainn wrote: »

Why do you only mention Sinn Féin in particular?



Why is the prospect of an increase in Sinn Féin's vote so awful for you? Would you rather see FF or the current shower back again, or are you one of those many Irish people with the memory span of a goldfish?

Because a 16 year old is more likely to be an 'up da race' Celtic Jersey wearing moron than someone who is older, and therefore is more likely to fall for the rhetoric of the likes of Sinners Fein.

If anyone has any doubt about this, go into Facebook and add a few 16 year olds and look at how moronic they really are.

It's the fact I don't have the memory span of a goldfish that means I remember the terrorist roots of Sinn Fein. That does however raise a valid point. 16 year olds don't have the relavent experience needed to judge current and previous administrations.

Eve_Dublin

My name is URL wrote: »

But that's the thing, apart from the reaching of adulthood, what you say doesn't apply to every 17 year old.

I started college when I had just turned 17, was living on my own away from home and held down an evening job to pay my way. There are thousands of 17 year olds in that same position today.

They should have chance to vote if they wish to do so. I mean there are 30 year olds still living at home, some of whom have no formal education and rely on state handouts to survive.. and they are encouraged to vote.

I just don't see the point in denying every single 17 year old the right to exercise a democratic duty. As has been said already, those with no interest in politics are unlikely to bother voting. But if there are even a few 17 yo's that want to make an informed decision and vote accordingly they shouldn't be prohibited from doing so.

We'll have to agree to disagree then.

holystungun9

Lot of polling done at that age from what I hear.

Artful_Badger

Eve_Dublin wrote: »

16 years olds generally have 2 or 3 more years of secondary education to get through though. If education is the most crucial deciding factor on whether you can make an informed decision, then they've a few more years to go yet.


Maturity generally comes with age. That's a fact.

I meant education in relation to the current political climate and the stance of the respective parties, not just education in general. Maturity comes with experience not age and as such it varies from person to person. If people are not educated on the current economic climate and the stances of the various parties in relation to it then they will lack they will not be able to make an informed decision. So 16 or 26, the difference isnt age its what they know about politics, that determines if the decision is mature and informed.

Artful_Badger

Eve_Dublin wrote: »

hey're not mature enough to vote. They live at home with their parents, have no real obligations, haven't finished formal education and have not reached adulthood. That's why they shouldn't be able to vote.

Thats how you determine maturity ? A great many people have returned home and to education. Have they lost their maturity now ?

Eve_Dublin

OCorcrainn wrote: »

Why is the prospect of an increase in Sinn Féin's vote so awful for you? Would you rather see FF or the current shower back again, or are you one of those many Irish people with the memory span of a goldfish?

Because FF are the only other party in the country?

I'm 32. The only parties I've ever voted for since turning 18 have been Labour, the Greens and the Socialists. Never voted for FF and was out protesting against them during the 2002 general elections when most of the country voted them in a second time, so no goldfish memory here.


SF were the political wing of a terrorist group that I despise. I would rather chop both my arms off then ever vote for them.

Laneyh

Dean0088 wrote: »

The Constitutional Convention being held this weekend just voted in favor of lowering the voting age to sixteen.



http://jrnl.ie/771334

I'm 21 now and and fairly interested in politics, current affairs and so on.

I remember thinking when I was sixteen that I should have been allowed vote. Now however, I'm completely against it.

Looking back I remember how immature I was - often believing stupid statements and promises made by both sides but in particular the hard left.

I'm sure there are sixteen year old's mature enough to cast a vote they truly believe in - but, in general, it's too young for many still going through the normal teen rebellion crap.

I could see Sinn Fein in particular targeting these voters with patriotic **** as they already do with their own youth organisations and others aligned with them.

What think ye, AH? Should the nippers be allowed vote after the Junior Cert is over and done with?

I say, lower the voting age. The immature ones will most likely be too apathetic to vote. I would say its more likely that younger people will vote on issues and policies than party allegiances so it could be a good thing.

In fairness most adults don't make a very informed decision when voting.
If we look at the last general election a lot of the votes were a reaction to FF as opposed to an endorsement of FG

Look at the pathetically low turn out for the children's referendum if 16 years olds could have voted in that perhaps the turnout would have been higher or the debate would have included people directly affected by it.

Artful_Badger

Eve_Dublin wrote: »

SF were the political wing of a terrorist group that I despise. I would rather chop both my arms off then ever vote for them.

If their plan is the best for the country then it should be worth voting for. To discount everything they will ever do because of their past is not mature and informed voting.

Quazzie

Artful_Badger wrote: »

If their plan is the best for the country then it should be worth voting for. To discount everything they will ever do because of their past is not mature and informed voting.

Surely the same logic can be applied for FF so.

OCorcrainn

Quazzie wrote: »

Because a 16 year old is more likely to be an 'up da race' Celtic Jersey wearing moron than someone who is older, and therefore is more likely to fall for the rhetoric of the likes of Sinners Fein.

If anyone has any doubt about this, go into Facebook and add a few 16 year olds and look at how moronic they really are.

What complete and utter bull you are spouting there, I have seen far more "up the ra" Celtic jersey wearing morons in their 30s and onwards who do that, than 16 year olds.

So pray tell me, what does a football club have to do with a political party, or are you one of those people who are prone to making remarkably stupid generalizations?

Artful_Badger

Quazzie wrote: »

Surely the same logic can be applied for FF so.

Absolutely.

Eve_Dublin

Artful_Badger wrote: »

I meant education in relation to the current political climate and the stance of the respective parties, not just education in general. Maturity comes with experience not age and as such it varies from person to person. If people are not educated on the current economic climate and the stances of the various parties in relation to it then they will lack they will not be able to make an informed decision. So 16 or 26, the difference isnt age its what they know about politics, that determines if the decision is mature and informed.

Artful_Badger wrote: »

Thats how you determine maturity ? A great many people have returned home and to education. Have they lost their maturity now ?

Nope. I agree with you. Maturity comes with experience. How much life experience does a 16 year old have?

donvito99

More 16 year old votes = more votes for Sinn Féin.

Conmaicne Mara

Sinfonia wrote: »

What's the problem with low voter turnout?

People should be interested in how voting changes the country they live in. Whether that's through local, general, European elections or referenda (spelling).

New laws, and new people in power have effects on a lot of peoples lives. A lot of Irish people won't educate themselves, even basically on a handful of issues that effect them without either a stick or a carrot.

A responsible citizen of any country should have a hand in selecting the people who form local and national Government and in passing or rejecting changes to constitution etc.

DonLimon

Quazzie wrote: »

Because a 16 year old is more likely to be an 'up da race' Celtic Jersey wearing moron than someone who is older, and therefore is more likely to fall for the rhetoric of the likes of Sinners Fein.

If anyone has any doubt about this, go into Facebook and add a few 16 year olds and look at how moronic they really are.

It's the fact I don't have the memory span of a goldfish that means I remember the terrorist roots of Sinn Fein. That does however raise a valid point. 16 year olds don't have the relavent experience needed to judge current and previous administrations.

Well don't you have your finger on the pulse, what about all those people above the voters above the age of 18 who voted for FG and Labours idiotic rhetoric, A better deal for Ireland, no water charges, no carer cuts etc.

There is not a party in this country that does not have terrorist roots, maybe you do have the memory of a goldfish.

I agree that if the voting age is lowered then it will probably benefit SF more than any other party but it is undemocratic to stop somebody from voting just because they might vote for the wrong person.

Quazzie

OCorcrainn wrote: »

What complete and utter bull you are spouting there, I have seen far more "up the ra" Celtic jersey wearing morons in their 30s and onwards who do that, than 16 year olds.

So pray tell me, what does a football club have to do with a political party, or are you one of those people who are prone to making remarkably stupid generalizations?

Are you trying to say that there no connections between the Ethos's of Celtic and Sinn Fein, and also the same market share they hold in this country?

If you can't then I'm sorry but it's yourself that can't see the wood for the trees.

16 year olds are far too impressionable and will be more likely to fall for Sinn Fein and what the day despite never backing it up.

Eve_Dublin

Artful_Badger wrote: »

If their plan is the best for the country then it should be worth voting for. To discount everything they will ever do because of their past is not mature and informed voting.

I don't believe their "plan" is the best for the country though. Besides from their dealings with a terrorist group, I don't agree with many of their policies. I've made an informed decision. There are others parties I'd choose over them.

Listen, this has nothing to do with the thread. You're entitled to support SF but I don't.

Artful_Badger

Eve_Dublin wrote: »

Nope. I agree with you. Maturity comes with experience. How much life experience does a 16 year old have?

Life experience does not equal political knowledge. Many 16 year old's have a better understanding of a great many more subjects than myself. Were politics a part of their education they would be more educated than the majority of their more "mature" elders.

Conchir

I'm 17, and there is no way the voting age should be lowered, IMO. The thought of any of the people in my year or the lower year in my school voting is actually slightly a bit scary :pac:

Eve_Dublin

Artful_Badger wrote: »

Life experience does not equal political knowledge. Many 16 year old's have a better understanding of a great many more subjects than myself. Were politics a part of their education they would be more educated than the majority of their more "mature" elders.

Political knowledge is all well and good but if you haven't lived some way independently or "in the real world", then it's impossible to see politics in action and how it affects the lives of us all.

Galwayguy35

Quazzie wrote: »

Because a 16 year old is more likely to be an 'up da race' Celtic Jersey wearing moron than someone who is older, and therefore is more likely to fall for the rhetoric of the likes of Sinners Fein.

If anyone has any doubt about this, go into Facebook and add a few 16 year olds and look at how moronic they really are.

It's the fact I don't have the memory span of a goldfish that means I remember the terrorist roots of Sinn Fein. That does however raise a valid point. 16 year olds don't have the relavent experience needed to judge current and previous administrations.

Every party was born thru conflict on the Island.

SF is here to stay whether you like it or not.

OCorcrainn

Eve_Dublin wrote: »

SF were the political wing of a terrorist group that I despise. I would rather chop both my arms off then ever vote for them.

So you suggesting that Sinn Féin and the people who vote for them support "terrorism".

By your logic you shouldn't be voting for Labour, considering their 'sticky' past.

Artful_Badger

Eve_Dublin wrote: »

I don't believe their "plan" is the best for the country though. Besides from their dealings with a terrorist group, I don't agree with many of their policies. I've made an informed decision. There are others parties I'd choose over them.

Listen, this has nothing to do with the thread. You're entitled to support SF but I don't.

I'm not a SF supporter. I just dont understand how someone can rule themselves out of voting for a party because of something that is not part of their agenda as it stands now in the context of claiming others are not mature enough to vote.

As I see it, age is no guarantee of an informed and mature vote. Education is whats needed.

Eve_Dublin

OCorcrainn wrote: »

So you suggesting that Sinn Féin and the people who vote for them support "terrorism".

By your logic you shouldn't be voting for Labour, considering their 'sticky' past.

I'm not getting into a discussion about SF. This is not what the thread is about.

Quazzie

OCorcrainn wrote: »

So you suggesting that Sinn Féin and the people who vote for them support "terrorism".

By your logic you shouldn't be voting for Labour, considering their 'sticky' past.

I don't recall any of the higher up members of labour being investigated by Scotland Yard over multiple murders. Do you?

L.Jenkins

Seriously, how does 16/17 year olds with the right to vote, assume that Sein Fein will be installed in the next Government? Do people think teenagers are naive enough to vote for them?

Eve_Dublin

Artful_Badger wrote: »

I'm not a SF supporter. I just dont understand how someone can rule themselves out of voting for a party because of something that is not part of their agenda as it stands now in the context of claiming others are not mature enough to vote.

As I see it, age is no guarantee of an informed and mature vote. Education is whats needed.

I made an off the cuff comment relating to 16 year olds voting for SF. It wasn't serious. My parents and all my siblings are SF voters and they're all over the age of 35.

Artful_Badger

Eve_Dublin wrote: »

Political knowledge is all well and good but if you haven't lived some way independently or "in the real world", then it's impossible to see politics in action and how it affects the lives of us all.

And without political knowledge then there is no way to understand how it actually does affect people. Most people see the gubberment raising taxes and shout and moan about it. They blame FF for the banking crisis, lets vote for someone else.

You dont need life experience, and in fact a lot of the time it can have detrimental effects and lead you to an uninformed decisions. Thats also the case for older nationalists. Their experience (which is bad education) dictates their views.

ManMade

Here's my question why bother? Like seriously. Speaking as a 17 year old with an interest in politics. Very very few people my age care about politics. If a ballot card came into me I wouldn't vote. I don't plan on voting. A lot of 17 year olds plan on going to college and leaving.

One flaw I see is that nearly all people aged 16-17 are in school. Teachers are the most biased people you will come across and as said before teens are impressionable. I've had a history teacher (2010) warn of social unrest if unemployment hit 10%!! and the army would be on the streets. I have an Irish teacher joke about how it's my generation will be paying for the mess we are in. And of my business teacher preaching about if the public service takes one more hit they will be on the streets. I've even had a religion teacher shout at me for being pro-choice.
And the thing is we can't even vote yet. I'd hate to think if we could. Old bast***s would never give us a moment of peace.

Thanks but no thanks. I'll just take my state subsidised education and leave when I'm finished. Old bast***s pay for there own damn pensions not with my future income tax.

..unless of course there's any party for free third level and against minimum pricing alcohol?

Rant/

Of course if it did become legal. Wouldn't it just get young people into the habit of not voting?

Prodigious

I think there should be some sort of aptitude test which one has to pass to be allowed to vote.

Twoandahalfmen

I'm 17 and been wanting to vote since I'm 15. What vote results turn out to be effect us and we don't get a say

Eve_Dublin

Artful_Badger wrote: »

And without political knowledge then there is no way to understand how it actually does affect people. Most people see the gubberment raising taxes and shout and moan about it. They blame FF for the banking crisis, lets vote for someone else.

You dont need life experience, and in fact a lot of the time it can have detrimental effects and lead you to an uninformed decisions. Thats also the case for older nationalists. Their experience (which is bad education) dictates their views.

How old are you if you don't mind me asking?

Artful_Badger

Eve_Dublin wrote: »

I made an off the cuff comment relating to 16 year olds voting for SF. It wasn't serious. My parents and all my siblings are SF voters and they're all over the age of 35.

I'm not trying to hang you for your comment I'm just trying to argue that experience and maturity is not a recipe for an informed decision. Education is. And an educated 16 imo is more informed than an experienced 50 year old without an interest in politics.

My name is URL

Quazzie wrote: »

I don't recall any of the higher up members of labour being investigated by Scotland Yard over multiple murders. Do you?

So is your opinion based on the party or simply on certain members of it?

The old hats will be gone some day, so will your opinions on the party change then?

There are so many people in Irish politics and wider society with ties to terrorism or whatever else people call it..

Our presidents father was a wanted 'terrorist' for many years, and a high ranking member and intelligence officer for the IRA.

Plenty of people in other parties have links to people who are accused of similar things.

During the years of the troubles everyone bemoaned the fact that the baddies wouldn't engage in politics, and ever since they started to; people bemoan the fact that they are involved in politics. It's pathetic, and rather ironic considering all the talk and pontificating about how others should let go of the past and move on that those same people do..

Artful_Badger

Eve_Dublin wrote: »

How old are you if you don't mind me asking?

I'm 29, why do you ask ?

Conchir

Itzy wrote: »

Seriously, how does 16/17 year olds with the right to vote, assume that Sein Fein will be installed in the next Government? Do people think teenagers are naive enough to vote for them?

Well, considering the amount of Sinn Féin and Republican slogans and chants I hear on a daily basis in school from fellow students, yes, I'd say many are naive enough.