Is it time for the West to Boycott Israel like we did South African Pre-1993?

jank

Seaneh wrote: »

so you are claiming that everyone in the west bank gets to vote to choose which government rules them and enacts laws upon them? because you are either wilfully lying or extremely ignorant of reality.

which would go hand on hand with your ignorence of the international laws concerning Annexation of lands during war post the 4th geneve convention, you ignorence of the fact that palestinians and Israeli's in the west bank are subject to separate laws and have totally different rights which cover such basic human rights as land ownership, right to education, freedom of movement, freedom of speach, right of peaceful assembly, access to water, self determination, right to a civilian trial (9000+ Palestinian civilians currently held without trial under military law by israel), and so on and so forth. while tgeir homes are demolished, lands stolen, villages and farms destroyed to make space for american and british citizen "settlers" who are imported to displace Palestinian communities and so fort.

and that all ties in nicely with your generally ignorant demenour in this thread as a whole.

Your Zionust revisionist nonsense is transparent in the extreme and does nothing but paint you as a useful idiot.

I have never been called a Zionist before, what's the correct reply, how does this go again, oh right I'm supposed to call you an anti Semite, etc etc. and down the rabbit hole we go...... not!

I am not interested in going through this topic blow by blow yet again, more than enough Internet bandwidth has been wasted on the subject.

I have made my points clear in previous posts, like it or lump it.

Nodin

jank wrote: »

Em, no its not and it has been mentioned here previously what the key differences are. It is a foreign Policy issue not a domestic issue. Everybody has a vote in the west bank something that was lacking in South Africa. Anyway, we should stick with facts shouldnt we?

A legal fiction. They do not have a vote in the occupying powers elections, while the settlers do. The notion that Israel can conduct a two-tier system of justice and administration and escape the obvious comparison to SA is laughable.

AlekSmart

jank wrote: »

If you want to blame someone why not blame the Arabs who instigated a resistance to a Jewish state in 1948? (which was mandated by the UN no less!!)

Israel doesnt give a **** what we think about it. The sooner people realise that the sooner we can stop having these pointless debates.

History is littered with winners and losers. Might be unpalatable for our 21st century sensibilities but humans have been conquering each other since day one. Does it make it right? No, but them are the facts and unless someone has a bigger gun than Israel and the US the situation is not going to change anytime soon. Lets not forget the reason the Jews fled Europe after WWII in the first place!

I think what rattles many Irish folks sensitivities is the Israeli tendency to be decisive and blunt to the point,both as individuals and as a State.

Our natural affability and "easy going" nature,plus a strongly held,if sometimes concealed,desire to be universally liked makes us somewhat disparaging of countries like South Africa,Israel,The USA and Australia.

This is not a particularly new phenomena,but I was quite taken by this piece from Oliver J Flanagan's Wikipedia entry (also posted in another thread)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oliver_J._Flanagan

He used his maiden speech in the Dáil to urge the government to "Rout the Jews out of this country":

“How is it that we do not see any of these [Emergency Powers] Acts directed against the Jews, who crucified Our Saviour nineteen hundred years ago, and who are crucifying us every day in the week? How is it that we do not see them directed against the Masonic Order? How is it that the I.R.A. is considered an illegal organisation while the Masonic Order is not considered an illegal organisation? [...] There is one thing that Germany did, and that was to rout the Jews out of their country. Until we rout the Jews out of this country it does not matter a hair's breadth what orders you make. Where the bees are there is the honey, and where the Jews are there is the money. ”

—Oliver Flanagan, Dáil Éireann, 9 July 1943.

It's worth noting that Oliver J went on to serve a further 43 years as TD for Laois/Offaly and consistently topped the poll in 14 seperate Elections.

There is also some interesting,and even more historical,information on long held Irish attitudes to "The Jews" in this article...

http://www.historyireland.com/volumes/volume12/issue2/features/?id=305

Whilst I am aware of the distinction between Jew,Israeli and Zionism,I am equally taken by the quotes on boycotts as a form of effective action...

Fr Creagh again rocked the pulpit. He deprecated violence, he said, but if the citizens of Limerick wanted to end Jewish extortion they should boycott Jewish commerce. This cry was echoed in the Limerick Leader and taken up by the Irish Independent. Arthur Griffith, who was shortly to found Sinn Féin, added his voice in favour of a boycott. To the Jews a boycott was almost as pernicious as the violence, as it hit their means of livelihood. Besides, some people were wilfully reneging on their debts and the Jews were unable to collect because of threats and intimidation. The boycott was solidly supported, though some said that they found the Jews’ trading terms reasonable and were only driven into complicity by their neighbours and the authority of Fr Creagh.

One has to admire the our native ability to solidly support extreme action against Jewish practices which some addmitted were reasonable....:rolleyes:

109 years on,here we are back at Captain Boycott's table,although I suppose the Israeli's would probably add 2,000 years to my timeline ...:)

Nodin

AlekSmart wrote: »

I think what rattles many Irish folks sensitivities is the Israeli tendency to be decisive and blunt to the point,both as individuals and as a State.

Our natural affability and "easy going" nature,plus a strongly held,if sometimes concealed,desire to be universally liked makes us somewhat disparaging of countries like South Africa,Israel,The USA and Australia.

...............

The problem with Israel is not the way its leaders communicate, it's what the state does. I fail to see the relevance of OJ flanagan.

AlekSmart

Nodin wrote: »

The problem with Israel is not the way its leaders communicate,it's what the state does.I fail to see the relevance of OJ flanagan.

I suspect Nodin,that one might need a little time to consider and appreciate the links between Oliver J's hugely popular,and long supported views on the "Jewish Question" and how much enthusiasm and effort is still put into finding an answer to it 70+years later.

The superficial common denominator surely appears an enthusiasm for putting manners on them Jews ?

Nodin

AlekSmart wrote: »

I suspect Nodin,that one might need a little time to consider and appreciate the links between Oliver J's hugely popular,and long supported views on the "Jewish Question" and how much enthusiasm and effort is still put into finding an answer to it 70+years later.

The superficial common denominator surely appears an enthusiasm for putting manners on them Jews ?

So you extrapolate that the views of one TD can justify the implication of anti-semtism as regards opposition to a program of colonisation......Thats rather a leap.

riffmongous

AlekSmart wrote: »

I suspect Nodin,that one might need a little time to consider and appreciate the links between Oliver J's hugely popular,and long supported views on the "Jewish Question" and how much enthusiasm and effort is still put into finding an answer to it 70+years later.

The superficial common denominator surely appears an enthusiasm for putting manners on them Jews ?

Or perhaps its got nothing to do with 'Jews' and maybe people are just consistently outraged by the actions of Israel??

jank banned for 2 days

Keep discussion civil in future please

Pat Mustard

AlekSmart,

The discussion is about whether Israel should be boycotted.

You have made reference to Israelis and you have made reference to Jews. The terms are not interchangeable. Reference to The Jews is a red herring.

It is a mistake to say that Israel is being criticised because Israelis tend to be more direct and Irish people tend to be more diplomatic. In social circumstances, Irish people tend not to be direct. However, in business, they are not so coy. Some self-indulgent desire to be liked does not enter into it. In any case, the cultural differences between the nationalities do not merit or even encourage a boycott of trade.

As to your point about Oliver Flanagan: in 1943, he criticised Masons, Bankers and Jews in the Dáil. That was seventy years ago. The State of Israel did not even exist.

Further, derogratory references to Jews by a Laois-Offaly deputy in wartime Ireland bear little relevance to peoples' current revulsion at the war crimes being committed in the Middle East, where land has been occupied and colonised, civilian property has been targeted for attack, and civilians killed by professional soldiers commanded by a sovereign state.

That is why people are angry at Israel.

AlekSmart

The Mustard wrote: »

AlekSmart,

The discussion is about whether Israel should be boycotted.

You have made reference to Israelis and you have made reference to Jews. The terms are not interchangeable. Reference to The Jews is a red herring.

Whilst I am aware of the distinction between Jew,Israeli and Zionism,I am equally taken by the quotes on boycotts as a form of effective action...


It is a mistake to say that Israel is being criticised because Israelis tend to be more direct and Irish people tend to be more diplomatic. In social circumstances, Irish people tend not to be direct. However, in business, they are not so coy. Some self-indulgent desire to be liked does not enter into it. In any case, the cultural differences between the nationalities do not merit or even encourage a boycott of trade.

As to your point about Oliver Flanagan: in 1943, he criticised Masons, Bankers and Jews in the Dáil. That was seventy years ago. The State of Israel did not even exist.

Further, derogratory references to Jews by a Laois-Offaly deputy in wartime Ireland bear little relevance to peoples' current revulsion at the war crimes being committed in the Middle East, where land has been occupied and colonised, civilian property has been targeted for attack, and civilians killed by professional soldiers commanded by a sovereign state.

That is why people are angry at Israel.

Perhaps I'm mistook,but the very term "discussion" surely entails more than microscopically analysing a single element of any particular topic ?.

As you can see above,I'm fully aware of the distinctions between Jew,Israel and Zionist,which for the purpose of my post not relevant,due to all the reasons you give about era and personalities.

I do,however,think it;s worth pointing out that in Oliver J's case,a political career as an elected public representative spanning 4 decades and only ending in 1987 is of some note,if only as one of the few bellweathers of how Irish people actually think away from the glare of outside observation.

Topping the Poll at some 14 seperate Free & Fair elections is no mean achievement,even for a Right-Wing politician in Ireland.

I'm uncertain whether your reference to the relevance of Oliver J's speech in wartime Ireland and the "War Crimes" issue is meant to draw comparisons to Irelands association with the British,but if so,these parallels are indeed accurate in many ways,particularly if you take the contemporaneous nature of Oliver J's remarks.

As for why some people are angry at Israel,I can easily see the Palestinian issue as being a valid and well covered one,but I'm sure that if it did'nt exist,this confraternity would find some other issue to rally around in order to express a distaste at Israeli existance.

riffmongous

AlekSmart wrote: »

I do,however,think it;s worth pointing out that in Oliver J's case,a political career as an elected public representative spanning 4 decades and only ending in 1987 is of some note,if only as one of the few bellweathers of how Irish people actually think away from the glare of outside observation.

Topping the Poll at some 14 seperate Free & Fair elections is no mean achievement,even for a Right-Wing politician in Ireland.

Well from your own wiki link

Nonetheless, he was consistently popular in his own constituency, largely because of the attention he paid to individual voters' petitions and concerns. He has been described as "one of the cutest of cute hoors in the history of the Dáil"

but that probably had nothing to do with him getting re-elected all the time, no the simple truth is Irish people are just raging anti-semites :rolleyes:

Nodin

AlekSmart wrote: »

Perhaps I'm (........)existance.

Scrape away the waffle and its more "its really anti-semitism".

And as OJ Flanagan was one TD out of the entire Dail, I again fail to see his relevance or how he could be considered representative of the population as a whole.

Do you have any thoughts on the OP - what do you think is the best way to pressure Israel out of the OT?

AlekSmart

Nodin wrote: »

Scrape away the waffle and its more "its really anti-semitism".

And as OJ Flanagan was one TD out of the entire Dail, I again fail to see his relevance or how he could be considered representative of the population as a whole.

Do you have any thoughts on the OP - what do you think is the best way to pressure Israel out of the OT?

Scrape whatever you wish,and imply whatever satisfies your requirements,however other more reasonably inclined readers may well note that I draw no such conclusion from it at all.

The reality was (perhaps still is ?) that one did'nt have to scratch too deep before a seam of anti-Jewishness would be found in mainstream middle-Ireland.

Whilst at least some of it was aided and abetted by the wackier elements of the Roman Catholic Church,there remained a significant amount of such sentiment always ready to spring forth and find a ready target.

Oliver J may not have been representative of the "Population as a Whole" but he was supremely,and legally representative of Laois/Offaly as a whole.

43 years as a Political "Cute Hoor" demonstrates one significantly powerful individual,or then again,perhaps just one who faithfully reflected his constituents views to the extent that they would return him almost methodically at each election.

Of course,if it makes you feel more comfortable,you can write off Oliver J as simply one man with hardly any popular support,however that fails to explain how such a fellow could top the poll continually over a 43 year career.....is it your contention that this political career was a blip...an abberation...or perhaps the Laois/Offaly voters simply made a mass mistake over that period ?

To deal with your question on the OP.

I don't actually see any reason for us to be involved in "Pressuring Israel out of the OT" at all.

I would recommend that our Government continues with using the platforms at it's disposal in the EU and UN as well as our "Special Relationship"(:rolleyes:) with the USA to elicit more information about events within the disputed areas,and that's about it really,we have our own pressing needs to attend to as well.

As long as Israel remains a functional democracy,even if a Jewish one,I'd leave them to sort it out for themselves.

Israel has,as you know it's internal differences between Orthodox,Ultra-Orthodox and many other strands of Jewishness...they regularly slug-it-out and come to blows over their Government's policies,so it's hardly an Uno Duce-Uno Voce situation.

The World is full,at any one time,of volatile situations,oppressed peoples,violence and disasters aplenty,it has always been thus..Unless and Until the Human Race manages to render itself extinct,then we shall continue in that same vein.

Nodin

AlekSmart wrote: »

Scrape whatever (.....snip.....)s simply made a mass mistake over that period ?.

You trotted out that guff before and its been dealt with. Repeating it won't make it any more relevant.

AlekSmart wrote: »

To deal with your question on the OP.

I don't actually see any reason for us to be involved in "Pressuring Israel out of the OT" at all.

I would recommend that our Government continues with using the platforms at it's disposal in the EU and UN as well as our "Special Relationship"(:rolleyes:) with the USA to elicit more information about events within the disputed areas,and that's about it really,we have our own pressing needs to attend to as well.

As long as Israel remains a functional democracy,even if a Jewish one,I'd leave them to sort it out for themselves.

Israel has,as you know it's internal differences between Orthodox,Ultra-Orthodox and many other strands of Jewishness...they regularly slug-it-out and come to blows over their Government's policies,so it's hardly an Uno Duce-Uno Voce situation.

The World is full,at any one time,of volatile situations,oppressed peoples,violence and disasters aplenty,it has always been thus..Unless and Until the Human Race manages to render itself extinct,then we shall continue in that same vein.

As pointed out earlier, Israel is engaged in occupying large areas outside its borders and repressing the population therein. Thus the idea that they're a "functional democracy" that can "sort it out for themselves" is a non-runner. Once again, the Apartheid situation comes to mind.

Pat Mustard

AlekSmart wrote: »

Perhaps I'm mistook,but the very term "discussion" surely entails more than microscopically analysing a single element of any particular topic ?.

As you can see above,I'm fully aware of the distinctions between Jew,Israel and Zionist,which for the purpose of my post not relevant,due to all the reasons you give about era and personalities.

I do,however,think it;s worth pointing out that in Oliver J's case,a political career as an elected public representative spanning 4 decades and only ending in 1987 is of some note,if only as one of the few bellweathers of how Irish people actually think away from the glare of outside observation.

Topping the Poll at some 14 seperate Free & Fair elections is no mean achievement,even for a Right-Wing politician in Ireland.

I'm uncertain whether your reference to the relevance of Oliver J's speech in wartime Ireland and the "War Crimes" issue is meant to draw comparisons to Irelands association with the British,but if so,these parallels are indeed accurate in many ways,particularly if you take the contemporaneous nature of Oliver J's remarks.

As for why some people are angry at Israel,I can easily see the Palestinian issue as being a valid and well covered one,but I'm sure that if it did'nt exist,this confraternity would find some other issue to rally around in order to express a distaste at Israeli existance.

Oliver Flanagan's speech in 1943 is completely irrelevant. First you accepted that in your post, and then you made further reference to it again.

The reference to 'wartime' in 1943 was a reference to World War 2, as if that wasn't absolutely obvious. I didn't mention the British. I didn't refer to the British. I didn't hint at the British.

It seems to me that there is a pro-Israeli camp in this thread who prefer to muddy the waters by referring to Jews and anti-semitism instead of dealing with the issue of Israeli behaviour in the Middle East. Poorly thought out, rambling accusations of widespread anti-semitism are nothing more than a disingenuous smokescreen to mask the real issue: Israeli crimes in the Middle East.

Wibbs

Nodin wrote: »

So you extrapolate that the views of one TD can justify the implication of anti-semtism as regards opposition to a program of colonisation......Thats rather a leap.

Indeed and pulling the Irish are anti-semites is a stretch anyway. Those that do always pull one or both of two "proofs", that gobsheen of a TD who pretty much ranted at and about everyone and secured the mouthbreather vote and the old saw the Limerick pogrom. Why are these trotted out? Because they stand alone and in stark contrast to the 1000 year history of Irish Jews who suffered no such discrimination. Cork people voted a Jew as mayor as far back as the 1600's and had a few after that(ditto for Dublin, we had two in the 20th century. Father and son IIRC, How Irish in politics can you be. ). In fact people forget that for a very long time the cause of Irish Catholics was mixed with the cause of Irish Jews(it went both ways, urban Irish Jews were notable for their charity and help on the ground during the famine). Have an oul read of Daniel O'Connell's work in this regard and his long standing contact with Jewish community leaders here and in Britain. He forced the British government to remove the historical legal requirement in the UK that Jews had to wear distinctive clothing. Before him in the mid 1700's the Irish parliament passed a motion to naturalise all Irish Jews(it was turned down in London) There are a few examples of this kind of thinking among the Irish.

OH and the Limerick pogrom? Don't leave the story hanging. What happened next? Well many Jews fled the town and headed to Cork bound for the new world. Cork people opened their doors to them and put them up such was the sympathy for their plight as fellow Irish men and women. So much so that many didn't take the boat to America and stayed instead.

To quote the aforementioned O'Connell "Ireland has claims on your ancient race, it is the only country that I know of unsullied by any one act of persecution of the Jews". One cute hoor and one loopy priest since Danny's quote hardly makes us out to be rabid anti Semites. I'd even go so far as to say of all of Europe, we've about the best record on this point.

Basically it ain't a strategy that's gonna really fly to deflect criticism of repeated Israeli government actions that are more dubious than not.

AlekSmart

Wibbs wrote: »

Indeed and pulling the Irish are anti-semites is a stretch anyway. Those that do always pull one or both of two "proofs", that gobsheen of a TD who pretty much ranted at and about everyone and secured the mouthbreather vote and the old saw the Limerick pogrom. Why are these trotted out? Because they stand alone and in stark contrast to the 1000 year history of Irish Jews who suffered no such discrimination. Cork people voted a Jew as mayor as far back as the 1600's and had a few after that(ditto for Dublin, we had two in the 20th century. Father and son IIRC, How Irish in politics can you be. ). In fact people forget that for a very long time the cause of Irish Catholics was mixed with the cause of Irish Jews(it went both ways, urban Irish Jews were notable for their charity and help on the ground during the famine). Have an oul read of Daniel O'Connell's work in this regard and his long standing contact with Jewish community leaders here and in Britain. He forced the British government to remove the historical legal requirement in the UK that Jews had to wear distinctive clothing. Before him in the mid 1700's the Irish parliament passed a motion to naturalise all Irish Jews(it was turned down in London) There are a few examples of this kind of thinking among the Irish.

OH and the Limerick pogrom? Don't leave the story hanging. What happened next? Well many Jews fled the town and headed to Cork bound for the new world. Cork people opened their doors to them and put them up such was the sympathy for their plight as fellow Irish men and women. So much so that many didn't take the boat to America and stayed instead.

To quote the aforementioned O'Connell "Ireland has claims on your ancient race, it is the only country that I know of unsullied by any one act of persecution of the Jews". One cute hoor and one loopy priest since Danny's quote hardly makes us out to be rabid anti Semites. I'd even go so far as to say of all of Europe, we've about the best record on this point.

Basically it ain't a strategy that's gonna really fly to deflect criticism of repeated Israeli government actions that are more dubious than not.

Good post Wibbs,apart from the last paragraph....in my case,at least,there's no "strategy" in play...I just respond as I feel...no cross referencing with Mossad or the Elders of Zion.

And yes,many Israeli Government actions are as dubious as hell,but I've yet to come across any Government with a clean-slate in relations to their actions in any field.

Nodin

AlekSmart wrote: »

Good post Wibbs,apart from the last paragraph....in my case,at least,there's no "strategy" in play...I just respond as I feel...no cross referencing with Mossad or the Elders of Zion.

And yes,many Israeli Government actions are as dubious as hell,but I've yet to come across any Government with a clean-slate in relations to their actions in any field.

Nobody said there was.

AlekSmart

Nodin wrote: »

Nobody said there was.

Oh good...cos here was I thinking it might be a part of my..."strategy".

Nodin

AlekSmart wrote: »

Oh good...cos here was I thinking it might be a part of my..."strategy".

No, that was just another excuse to imply anti-semitism on the part of persons who might find fault with the Israeli states activities.

Seaneh

For anyone who hasn't seen how the occupation affects people in the real world I implore you to watch the documentary "5 Broken Camera's" which has just been nominated for the "Best Documentary Feature" award at this years Oscars.

Shot over 5 years by a Palestinian Farmer while he and the people from his town in the West Bank try to save their lands from illegal Apartheid Israeli settlements through non-violent resistance.

It is more than just a good documentaries, it's one of the best film's I've seen in years and shows the realities on living under Zionist occupation in all it's details.

Currently available on Netflix US for those in America and those with tech savy ways.

AlekSmart

Nodin wrote: »

No,that was just another excuse to imply anti-semitism on the part of persons who find fault with the Israeli states activities.

Afraid not Nodin.

Many people,including myself, find fault with Israeli Government policies.

Many of these people do so for the best of reasons,but a proportion,appear hell-bent on ensuring that Israel as an entity is erased from the map.

As has been pointed out,the very breadth and vehemence of anti Israeli feeling tends to downplay the reality of Israel being a democratic entity in it's own right.

I'm not at all a supporter of the "Settlement" policies of Israel,but on balance I see Israel in a more positive light than negative....however,negativity is a far more emotive and gives a far better glow to us when we can be seen to support the Underdog.

I've always been struck by the ambivalence of the Arab world towards their Palestinian brethern's cause,with,for sure,many strong sounding expressions of solidarity and promises of support,yet it fell to the likes of the evil oppressor Col.Gadaffi to speak the unspeakable...

http://www.chron.com/news/nation-world/article/Gaddafi-calls-Israelis-Palestinians-idiots-1479401.php

But he (Gadaffi) drew sustained applause for airing views which many Arabs express in private but which their leaders rarely utter in public. Among the dignataries present was U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan, whose own speech was conventionally diplomatic.

But Gadaffi added: "I cannot recognise either the Palestinian state or the Israeli state. Don't be angry, Abu Mazen, but the Palestinians are idiots and the Israelis are idiots."

The Israelis were wrong to try to hold on to the West Bank in the face of Palestinian attacks and the Palestinians were wrong not to have set up their own state after 1948, he said.

The notion as posed by the thread title,is that somehow or other a "Boycott" of Israel will influence it's actions is I believe fanciful,given Israel's well proven ability to fight it's own corner.

In the meantime I shall continue to munch a Jaffacake or two,whilst firing up the odd Israeli made computer chip,and being confident that the Irish Defence Forces are equipped with the most effective weaponry to defend this State against its enemies.

http://www.irishcentral.com/news/Justice-Minister-confirms-Irish-government-will-continue-to-buy-weapons-from-Israel-183769321.html

Nodin

AlekSmart wrote: »

...............



The notion as posed by the thread title,is that somehow or other a "Boycott" of Israel will influence it's actions is I believe fanciful,given Israel's well proven ability to fight it's own corner.

...........

"democracy" but not in the Western European sense.

Boycott, leading to sanctions. It took a long time to do it against South Africa, but its entirely possible.

hatrickpatrick

Ok so to those who do in fact regard us Pro Palestinians as anti semites, why do you feel it's necessary to equate hatred of an ideology or government to hatred of an entire ethnic group?

I despise the Irish government and I absolutely despise the FF style elitist cronyism which has continued under FG.

Does that mean I hate the Irish race itself?

Does opposing American drone strikes, torture etc mean I'm racist against ordinary American citizens?

The argument has absolutely no basis in any kind of logic whatsoever. Whatever the people who argue it base their arguments on is something I would really, really love to hear.

AlekSmart

Nodin wrote: »

"democracy" but not in the Western European sense.

Boycott, leading to sanctions. It took a long time to do it against South Africa, but its entirely possible.

Ah I see...with a small "d"...I geddit.

Mind you this small "d" Democracy still manages to hold transparent elections using the PR system....

I'm sure the United Arab List Party must be some form of typo eh...?

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Politics/UAL.html

The party won 3.8% of the vote and returned 5 members to the new Knesset

Some more small "d" statistics here for them that needs `em....

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Politics/knesset2013.html

It's perhaps a moot point,but would any posters prefer if the 135,000+ who voted for the United Arab List boycotted the elections instead ?

Seaneh

And what about the millions of Palestinians who are subject to israeli rule and apartheid laws who dont get to vote?


Your little rant is beyond flawed.

Nodin

AlekSmart wrote: »

Ah I see...with (....) the elections instead ?

...all of which, as mentioned ad nauseam now, ignores the occupation.

AlekSmart

Nodin wrote: »

...all of which, as mentioned ad nauseam now, ignores the occupation.

It may fulfill your need,also mentioned ad nauseum,to portray Israel's status as a democracy in anything other than a negative light.

However flawed or contrived it may be portrayed by some,it remains an open democratic recognition of Arab (and Islamic) views within the Israeli Parliament.

AlekSmart

Seaneh wrote: »

And what about the millions of Palestinians who are subject to israeli rule and apartheid laws who dont get to vote?

Your little rant is beyond flawed.

So are you suggesting Seanh,that Israel is not a functioning democracy ?
Is it a Dictatorship ?
Is it a Theocracy ?
In what way does Israeli democracy differ from our own version of the term ?

It would appear that any opposing view to your own is a "Rant" so therefore I'll happily accept your accolade.

Seaneh

it subjects millions of people to laws which they have no imput in, so it can hardly be a real democracy now can it?

Nodin

AlekSmart wrote: »

It may fulfill your need,also mentioned ad nauseum,to portray Israel's status as a democracy in anything other than a negative light.

However flawed or contrived it may be portrayed by some,it remains an open democratic recognition of Arab (and Islamic) views within the Israeli Parliament.

It contains no recognition of the millions governed under the occupation and colonised without consent.

323

Seaneh wrote: »

it subjects millions of people to laws which they have no imput in, so it can hardly be a real democracy now can it?

Guess you mean "input". Anyway, thought this was about Isreal, sound's like you are talking about the EU.

JustinDee

Seaneh wrote: »

And what about the millions of Palestinians who are subject to israeli rule and apartheid laws who dont get to vote?

What about the half a million or so in Gaza who still don't get to vote or even see an opposition in action?

Nodin

JustinDee wrote: »

What about the half a million or so in Gaza who still don't get to vote or even see an opposition in action?

No to mention the PRC, and the way millions of turkeys are killed at certain times of year all over the world, none of which really has any bearing on the merits of a boycott/sanctions of/against Israel for its occupation of the territories.

JustinDee

Nodin wrote: »

No to mention the PRC, and the way millions of turkeys are killed at certain times of year all over the world, none of which really has any bearing on the merits of a boycott/sanctions of/against Israel for its occupation of the territories.

If the cause-du-jour is to be civil and political rights, living conditions and welfare of Palestinians, lets be equivocal in our concern and not quite so subjective, eh?

Nodin

JustinDee wrote: »

If the cause-du-jour is to be civil and political rights, living conditions and welfare of Palestinians, lets be equivocal in our concern and not quite so subjective, eh?

At which point all specific commentary becomes impossible - rather a nonsense.

JustinDee

Nodin wrote: »

At which point all specific commentary becomes impossible - rather a nonsense.

Not at all. It just highlights the convenience and subjectivity of some people's chosen causes.

Seaneh

First of all I think both myself and others have said that we aren't fans of Hamas but hey, if we are going to play silly games here, lets talk about how Hamas gained the popularity they did in the 19 years from 1987 to 2006, born from the aftermath of the first intifada and galvanized by the brutality of the Israeli response to the second intifada. The Israeli government created their own monster in Gaza by their treatment of the civilian population, Israel has always been more voilent towards Gazan's than Palestinian's in the West Bank, especially during the Intifada's. And the fact that Mossad even directly aided Hamas (and there is a fairly sizeable chunk of the international intelligence community who claim Mossad armed them) in the 80's and 90's in an effort to hurt support of Fatah.

Here's a pretty good article in which retired Israeli official Avner Cohen, who worked in Gaza for over 2 decades explains how Israel in effect created the monster that is Hamas: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123275572295011847.html

Nobody here supports Hamas, but some of us aren't willing to ignore the elephant in the room of how and why they gained control of Gaza. Without occupation and blockades Hamas wouldn't exist.

And without the US and Israel trying to remove the newly elected Hamas (who Israel allowed on the ballot in the first place) from government in 2006, they wouldn't have stagged a military coup and gained total control of Gaza and caused the end of the PA Unity Government.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/14/international/middleeast/14mideast.html?_r=2&ei=5094&en=d28cff5caa1702fa&hp=&ex=1139979600&partner=homepage&pagewanted=print&oref=slogin&

Nodin

JustinDee wrote: »

Not at all. It just highlights the convenience and subjectivity of some people's chosen causes.

So its the usual "whatabouttery". Thought as much. When you're e-mailing blind care with a complaint about their lack of action on the wheel chair bound, don't forget to cc me.

Have you any thoughts on the OP?

hatrickpatrick

JustinDee wrote: »

If the cause-du-jour is to be civil and political rights, living conditions and welfare of Palestinians, lets be equivocal in our concern and not quite so subjective, eh?

Private property rights are equally important causes-du-jour in and of themselves, independently of the other (equally important) concerns.

In other words, regardless of general civil and political rights, living conditions and welfare, the Israelis have stolen privately owned land from the individuals who own it, and this in and of itself is a crime which needs to be redressed and for which Israel needs to be penalized.

I'm never too sure why people insist on bringing in other issues when settlements are discussed, if it isn't to dilute the argument at hand.

JustinDee

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

I'm never too sure why people insist on bringing in other issues when settlements are discussed, if it isn't to dilute the argument at hand.

Nothing of a kind. If you're concerned with the well being of Palestinians who suffer at the hands of brutal tactics without a day in what goes on, don't leave anything out, is all I'm saying. It isn't a diversion or dilution. It isn't even another issue.

Seaneh

So, the other day (18th of feb) BDSMovement.net released a short video to promote the Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions movement explaining why it's important and why they are calling for people to join.

I think it's relevant to this thread.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1N69oP9nrwo