The "what the hell do I call my training log?" training log...

Dilbert75

That's the plan! Don't tell anyone but I was up reading P&D again this evening, to see if there's something in there for me to follow for next time, whenever that is!

blockic

Dilbert75 wrote: »

That's the plan! Don't tell anyone but I was up reading P&D again this evening, to see if there's something in there for me to follow for next time, whenever that is!

P&D stands for Pass out & DNF at the moment! It's bloody 3 for 3!!

Dilbert75

Hush - if you keep that up Gavlor will be here with his Told You So any minute.

Gavlor

Dilbert75 wrote: »

Hush - if you keep that up Gavlor will be here with his Told You So any minute.

Non P&D programmes enable you to finish marathons (slightly late) AND a marathon drinking session all in the space of 17 hours

Dilbert75

Told You So.

Runchick

Fantastic detailed and honest report. It's hard to believe that we had such similar experiences but to be that close to the end makes it so much more gut wrenching:( on the gels, I took one every 4 miles as planned, so had 5 in me by the time I fell, so not sure if any more would have made any difference in your case? It must have been such a nice feeling to finally get home to your family after all that

belcarra

Dilbert75 wrote: »

Ok. Number picked up, quick chat with Meno, strange "I should recognise you but can't think where from" look from Belcarra and out of dodge - not a huge amount to keep me there to be honest.

That sums it up perfectly Dilbert!
I asked Meno who that was and when he said your name I gave myself a virtual faceslap!:o

belcarra

Just read your report now...extremely unlucky!!
Whatever else you take from the experience you should know that you have found your boundaries now so in future try and remain slightly inside them!
Running fast marathons is great but running slow marathons is better than running none at all!

Recover well and best of luck next time out!

Dilbert75

Obviously you're right - and if you'd asked me on Sunday would I rather a 3.45 or a DNF then it's obvious which I'd have chosen. I was even thinking it in the last km before I stopped that I could get a bronze target even if I walked from here but once I slowed down I had to stop.

What was evidently dehydration crept up on me gradually and was totally unexpected - I thought I had my fluids well under control and was taking in plenty, proportionately much more than I'd normally take in during training. But obviously not nearly enough.

Lesson learned, no harm done.

drquirky

Hey Dilbert- bummer to hear about Limerick- sounds like a super tough day out there- just a question (gleaned from reading your RR) What is your primary source of hydration (not running but during the day) was struck in the RR about all the tea you were drinking and was just wondering if maybe this played a roll? Maybe too much of a mild diuretic and not enough H20? Probably totally off base on this but trying to make sense of all the difficulties being experienced recently by pretty well trained boardsies!

Gavlor

Dilbert75 wrote: »

Obviously you're right - and if you'd asked me on Sunday would I rather a 3.45 or a DNF then it's obvious which I'd have chosen. I was even thinking it in the last km before I stopped that I could get a bronze target even if I walked from here but once I slowed down I had to stop.

What was evidently dehydration crept up on me gradually and was totally unexpected - I thought I had my fluids well under control and was taking in plenty, proportionately much more than I'd normally take in during training. But obviously not nearly enough.

Lesson learned, no harm done.

How's the body today?

belcarra

Just as a follow-on (I promise I'll shut the f#'! up after this!!) did you take any salt tablets during the run?
I often used to be caked in salt at the end of races but the past 12 months I've made sure to take at least one tablet when racing marathons. The theory goes that the more water you take on the more you dilute your salt deposits and therefore the quicker you would be to have issues on a hot day when you sweat out whatever salt remains in your body. Ever since taking the tablets I no longer have such issues and I get less cramping.

Dilbert75

Body is ok today considering. Quads and calves are tight but cycled to work and it helped a bit.

No problem exploring the dehydration thing - as much as I accept that it was the problem - http://www.heart.org/HEARTORG/Conditions/HighBloodPressure/AboutHighBloodPressure/Low-Blood-Pressure_UCM_301785_Article.jsp#mainContent could have been written about me - I don't yet understand what I should have done differently to prevent it.

Normally at work I have a bottle of water on my desk and sip it constantly. Probably drink a litre or so per day that way. As well as a small amount of fruit juice, I do drink a good few cups of tea as well so I guess that could lead to the diuretic effect, though I'd expect that more from coffee. I'm not as good about drinking water at the weekends, mainly with meals, as I'm not in one place as much so it tends to be more tea.

On race morning I started running with a small bottle of water with an Electrolyte tab in it and picked up another bottle of water at just about every station (except maybe 2 or 3), having used most or all of the one before it - though granted in the later stages I was pouring some water down my back to keep me cool. Between the salts in the first bottle, in the Lucozade and in the gels I kept cramps at bay successfully. So it is a surprise to find how badly wrong I got general hydration.

drquirky

Dilbert75 wrote: »

Body is ok today considering. Quads and calves are tight but cycled to work and it helped a bit.

No problem exploring the dehydration thing - as much as I accept that it was the problem - http://www.heart.org/HEARTORG/Conditions/HighBloodPressure/AboutHighBloodPressure/Low-Blood-Pressure_UCM_301785_Article.jsp#mainContent could have been written about me - I don't yet understand what I should have done differently to prevent it.

Normally at work I have a bottle of water on my desk and sip it constantly. Probably drink a litre or so per day that way. As well as a small amount of fruit juice, I do drink a good few cups of tea as well so I guess that could lead to the diuretic effect, though I'd expect that more from coffee. I'm not as good about drinking water at the weekends, mainly with meals, as I'm not in one place as much so it tends to be more tea.

On race morning I started running with a small bottle of water with an Electrolyte tab in it and picked up another bottle of water at just about every station (except maybe 2 or 3), having used most or all of the one before it - though granted in the later stages I was pouring some water down my back to keep me cool. Between the salts in the first bottle, in the Lucozade and in the gels I kept cramps at bay successfully. So it is a surprise to find how badly wrong I got general hydration.

A litre a day sounds pretty low to me especially w/ the amount of running you do- I recognise I have a pretty high need for water but tend to drink around 3 litres a day when running 50-60 miles a week. Dunno though - feel really bad for you as it does;t seem that clear cut...

scriba

Just read your report now, what a dose. Gutted for you, but you'll be back stronger. Feet up this week, fella.

Dilbert75

drquirky wrote: »

A litre a day sounds pretty low to me especially w/ the amount of running you do- I recognise I have a pretty high need for water but tend to drink around 3 litres a day when running 50-60 miles a week.

In total I'm guessing I get over 2 litres of liquids per day but a lot of it wouldn't be plain water (3 litres of just water seems huge - my back teeth would be floating). Still I seem to pass the straw-coloured test pretty much all of the time. These days I hardly ever carry water when running - only on long runs - and don't generally feel excessively thirsty.

Maybe I'm just going to have to get into the habit of routinely drinking more water so I'm not waiting till I get thirsty to correct a problem.

Dilbert75

According to this page - http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Dehydration/Pages/Symptoms.aspx - symptom of severe dehydration is not taking a pee for 8 hours or more. For me on Sunday it was 14 hours between visits :O

Only other remnant is shoulder muscle pain - must have had savage tension in my shoulders from when I started losing my form.

career_move

I'm really confused because I'd say you drank more water than me during the race. You seemed to have a bottle in your hand all the time that you were drinking from
Sunday morning I had a small cup (300ml approx) of black coffee and half a bottle of water. I think I went to the toilet about 5 times before I left the hotel and about twice more at the start.
I had half a bottle of water with me when the race started which I sipped at a few times until mile 3. I had the gel at mile 4 and then I threw away the remainder that was in the bottle. After that I got water from every station but I only took a couple of mouthfuls and threw it away. I took 2 more isogels and an ordinary gel with caffeine at about 2 hrs. Before mile 24 when I was feeling the pressure I got the lucozade sport and a bottle of water at the station there and I was actually a bit surprised at how thirsty I was. I'd say I knocked back half a bottle of lucozade and I hate the stuff.
I don't know much about exercising heart rate values but looking at your heart rate from the garmin it doesn't seem to me to be massively high and its pretty steady. Between mile 5 and mile 15 its in the high 150's mostly and then up to mile 20 you're in the low to mid 160's. From here to when you stop its low 170's peaking at 175 before you stop. Is that abnormal

Edit: apparently that is abnormally high
http://www.livestrong.com/article/382737-the-average-athletes-heart-rate-during-a-marathon/

Gavlor

career_move wrote: »

I'm really confused because I'd say you drank more water than me during the race. You seemed to have a bottle in your hand all the time that you were drinking from
Sunday morning I had a small cup (300ml approx) of black coffee and half a bottle of water. I think I went to the toilet about 5 times before I left the hotel and about twice more at the start.
I had half a bottle of water with me when the race started which I sipped at a few times until mile 3. I had the gel at mile 4 and then I threw away the remainder that was in the bottle. After that I got water from every station but I only took a couple of mouthfuls and threw it away. I took 2 more isogels and an ordinary gel with caffeine at about 2 hrs. Before mile 24 when I was feeling the pressure I got the lucozade sport and a bottle of water at the station there and I was actually a bit surprised at how thirsty I was. I'd say I knocked back half a bottle of lucozade and I hate the stuff.
I don't know much about exercising heart rate values but looking at your heart rate from the garmin it doesn't seem to me to be massively high and its pretty steady. Between mile 5 and mile 15 its in the high 150's mostly and then up to mile 20 you're in the low to mid 160's. From here to when you stop its low 170's peaking at 175 before you stop. Is that abnormal

Edit: apparently that is abnormally high
http://www.livestrong.com/article/382737-the-average-athletes-heart-rate-during-a-marathon/

The hr looks a bit high but I would take those 'average' articles with a pinch of salt. The average time for a male runner in the us is 4.36 so I'd imagine a 4.36 runner will have a substantially lower heart rate than an above average 3.30 runner

career_move

Compare it to Marthastew's pacing heart rate though and it looks low

menoscemo

career_move wrote: »

Compare it to Marthastew's pacing heart rate though and it looks low

HR is irrelevant in absolute terms as it varies person to person, so you can only compare HR's as a % of max. MS obviously has a very high Max HR (based on sunday and her Marathon HR I would estimate about 210-220)

I think Dilbert said a few weeks ago that his Max is 185ish, so to be up in the mid to high 170's in a marathon is very high, in fact it is what you would expect to see in a 5k race.
Even though dilberts average for the entire race is about right, being in the 5k zone for nearly an hour is always going to cause a problem.......the question is what caused the HR to climb into that zone. Pace? (unlikely- he was running those paces in the 140's in training). Distance? (possibly but doubtful- he did the training and the miles). Dehydration/heat stroke/salt depletion? (these are the likely causes IMO).

blockic

career_move wrote: »

Compare it to Marthastew's pacing heart rate though and it looks low

I think Marthastew has a naturally high heart rate. Think this was discussed on her log after London.

I'd say best for Dilbert to compare his race rate with his other runs as everyone is different.

career_move

Dilbert75 wrote: »

I'm not sure it was truly easy tbh - I was up against increasingly poor visibility on a main road, as well as drizzle and my family waiting for me back at the start - so I think I was subconsciously getting some extra HTFU, despite my efforts to resist it and slow down.

I'd expect my normal easy run HR to be more in the 120s. I think the peak I've ever recorded on my Garmin was 183 and in DCM I averaged 151 with a max of 170. In my only xc race in January I was in the 170 range all the way through the 6k.

Does that tell you anything more?

menoscemo wrote: »

Yeah your max is somewhere around the mid to high 180's (same as me). If you held 151 in your first marathon you are likely to be able to hold a touch higher in your next one (I averaged 151 in my second, 155 in my third and 159 in my 4th raced marathon).
Therefore by any definition, a run with a 147 average is below your marathon pace/effort. By the looks of your HR graph it was very steady too so I would expect you to be able to go at a faster pace in a raced marathon.

Adds to my confusion

RacoonQueen

Hard luck. That report was tough reading, best thing is you're fired up for the next one. Marathons are a cruel lover.

menoscemo

career_move wrote: »

Adds to my confusion

Average HR is only one thing you should look at, it's not the be all and end all.
Average HR is relevant in a marathon if you stay pretty steady throughout.

Like in Blackpool Marathon My average HR was 159 as I said but it would have been about 157 for the first few miles and about 162 for the last few miles- That's susatainable.

I could have gotten the same average by being at 140 for the first half and 176 for the second half, but that is not sustainable. 176 and I would be 'red Lining' it. You can only hold that type of effort for short periods, not 1hr+.

Dilbert75

Based on heart rate reserve the following are my ranges (calculated a few weeks ago):

- Recovery <145
- Gen aerobic 134-152
- Med / long 138-156
- MP 149-164
- Lactate 154-169
- VO2 max 173-177

So I was in a good range for a lot of it. Like I said earlier I have to accept that I was dehydrated because all my symptoms add up to it.

But as CM says there were many people around us drinking much less than me - taking a mouthful from a bottle at each runs and throwing the rest away - and not falling over.

It's quite frustrating. I don't mind having done something wrong if I know what to do to correct it next time.

guinang

Cm also said she was doing lots of toilet breaks on the morning of the marathon. Even though she only had a coffee and water it sounds to me like she was well hydrated (perhaps from fluids the day before). Were you the same?

Dilbert75

I thought so - though I didn't drink a huge amount (just a couple of glasses) with dinner on Saturday so I wouldn't be up during the night. Had a pot of tea at breakfast, then the water I mentioned earlier.

Dilbert75

menoscemo wrote: »

Average HR is only one thing you should look at, it's not the be all and end all.
Average HR is relevant in a marathon if you stay pretty steady throughout.

Totally agree - that's one of the reason my Garmin is set to autolap, so I can see my HR over each km. But on my GLR data the steady rise is obvious towards the end. And there's no way I could have kept going at that rate. Even an hour later it was in the 80's, despite having been lying down for an hour.

Steroo

Some good reading the last few pages. Making me think about my Marathon Strategy. Shame its come from such an experience for you Dilbert but I know you'll learn from it & come back stronger for next time.

Based on what's been said, would it be advisable to run to HR for the Marathon.. if I decide my 'red line' and see my HR approaching this zone... should I slow down a bit (unless it's the last few miles maybe). What's advisable. So I'd be running on ability instead of a fantasy time goal.
I know this is probably the whole point to HR training etc.. but it wasn't part of my plan until now maybe. I wasn't planning on even wearing the HR strap as I find it a little uncomfortable.