The "what the hell do I call my training log?" training log...

belcarra

Steroo wrote: »

Some good reading the last few pages. Making me think about my Marathon Strategy. Shame its come from such an experience for you Dilbert but I know you'll learn from it & come back stronger for next time.

Based on what's been said, would it be advisable to run to HR for the Marathon.. if I decide my 'red line' and see my HR approaching this zone... should I slow down a bit (unless it's the last few miles maybe). What's advisable. So I'd be running on ability instead of a fantasy time goal.
I know this is probably the whole point to HR training etc.. but it wasn't part of my plan until now maybe. I wasn't planning on even wearing the HR strap as I find it a little uncomfortable.

Some people will say you should race to effort and ignore external devices which might cloud judgement. However, I would always bear in mind my HR for marathons. I had a few blow ups in times gone past and HR data always showed that my Heart Rate had risen to an unsustainable level. There may be different reasons for this but ultimately I now know not to let my HR get too out of control too early in a marathon. Everyone's limit is different so you'll need to do a bit of homework to find your optimal HR range and then a bit of trial and error to gradually raise it until you know your upper limits.

career_move

Steroo wrote: »

Some good reading the last few pages. Making me think about my Marathon Strategy. Shame its come from such an experience for you Dilbert but I know you'll learn from it & come back stronger for next time.

Based on what's been said, would it be advisable to run to HR for the Marathon.. if I decide my 'red line' and see my HR approaching this zone... should I slow down a bit (unless it's the last few miles maybe). What's advisable. So I'd be running on ability instead of a fantasy time goal.
I know this is probably the whole point to HR training etc.. but it wasn't part of my plan until now maybe. I wasn't planning on even wearing the HR strap as I find it a little uncomfortable.

Ya I was wondering about that too. Is it possible to come back from the brink. I assume that slowing down might not be enough if you were severely dehydrated. You would have to have realised that you needed the fluids and thats pretty difficult at that stage in the race. I've always thought I'll get thirsty before I get dehydrated but I was a bit shocked when I took the lucozade at how much I drank because my brain wasn't telling me I was thirsty!
Sorry for the big post mortem Dilbert

jcsmum

So sorry to hear that things didn't go to plan in Limerick. What a fantastic and honest race report too.

Dilbert75

career_move wrote: »

Sorry for the big post mortem Dilbert

Not at all. We're mostly still quite new to long-distance running so in there's something in this sorry tale that we can all learn from then let's be having it!

blockic

Dilbert75 wrote: »

But as CM says there were many people around us drinking much less than me - taking a mouthful from a bottle at each runs and throwing the rest away - and not falling over.

It's quite frustrating. I don't mind having done something wrong if I know what to do to correct it next time.

I'll hop in here too! This statement puts my experience in a nutshell. Very hard to take when you don't know what you should do to rectify it.

Only difference with me and Dilbert is that I would not have taken any sports drink/ electrolytes which may have caused salt dilution for me. I felt I had plenty water. I did take 4 gels though. Gonna attempt to take 27 gels like meno the next time. :cool::pac:

Steroo

I've never taken salt tablets.. What ones are best? Going to get some and try them.

menoscemo

Steroo wrote: »

I've never taken salt tablets.. What ones are best? Going to get some and try them.

I Take these:
http://www.saltstick.com/products/sscaps/cfeatures.htm

I used to take a tube off Zim/High5 flaovoured 'effervescent' tabs, but you have to dissolve them in water to take them which can be pretty hard to do on the move.

The Scaps can be easily transported and you just throw them in your mouth at the water stations and given that they have a gelatin Film around the salts; they taste of nothing.

belcarra

menoscemo wrote: »

I Take these:
http://www.saltstick.com/products/sscaps/cfeatures.htm

I used to take a tube off Zim/High5 flaovoured 'effervescent' tabs, but you have to dissolve them in water to take them which can be pretty hard to do on the move.

The Scaps can be easily transported and you just throw them in your mouth at the water stations and given that they have a gelatin Film around the salts; they taste of nothing.

I use these which you need to dissolve in water.
The taste can be good or bad depending on what flavour you choose.

Having seen Meno's option I think I'd prefer to go down that route to see what they are like on a long run. Certainly appear easier for handling and no taste should lessen issues with adverse reactions.

docjewel

menoscemo wrote: »

I Take these:
http://www.saltstick.com/products/sscaps/cfeatures.htm

Any idea as to where the handiest place to pick these up? online or a sports/cycle shop or would a chemist even have these?

Brilliant discussion here & fair play to everyone on being honest & open with there experiences.With Cork coming up & a good chance of it being a warm day,hydration is something that we are going to have to look at very carefully.

Another question for the more experienced guys on here,(apologies if it sounds stupid), I would very rarely use salt on food,don't really use much butter or sugar either,would it be any advantage to start adding some table salt to our daily meals?

Walkedit

Respect Dilbert, epic report, it'll come together on another day for you

belcarra

docjewel wrote: »

Another question for the more experienced guys on here,(apologies if it sounds stupid), I would very rarely use salt on food,don't really use much butter or sugar either,would it be any advantage to start adding some table salt to our daily meals?

I'd imagine your normal diet would have sufficient salt for a healthy life so don't think specifically adding extra salt would be advisable.
However, when you're doing your LSRs it would be advisable to top-up your levels due to salt loss through sweat.
A good indicator is the salty residue on your skin after a tough workout.

docjewel

belcarra wrote: »

I'd imagine your normal diet would have sufficient salt for a healthy life so don't think specifically adding extra salt would be advisable.
However, when you're doing your LSRs it would be advisable to top-up your levels due to salt loss through sweat.
A good indicator is the salty residue on your skin after a tough workout.

Cheers belcarra,yea I would end up with alot of salty residue on my face especially after longer runs,so it obvious its something I'm gonna have to look into.

tomred1N

belcarra wrote: »

I'd imagine your normal diet would have sufficient salt for a healthy life so don't think specifically adding extra salt would be advisable.
However, when you're doing your LSRs it would be advisable to top-up your levels due to salt loss through sweat.
A good indicator is the salty residue on your skin after a tough workout.

Much the same as heiniken so ! Had 5 pints last friday night and I could taste the stuff running out of me on sunday.

Seriously though I am far from an expert and generally would hardly be an example of healty living given that I drink approx 6-7 cups of tea a day, addicted to sugar in it, load salt on food , drink a few pints , have terrible flexibility, never stretch ...I wont go any further cause someone I love might recognise me !!

However 3 litres of water a day is not a lot. I drink a pint of tap water everytime I pass the tap at home. Not during the day though as I cannot be visiting loos every hour but at home at least 7-8 pints a day.
Have run up to 20 mile lsr without water ..
.ok in cool conditions but still losing loads of sweat and ok at end. Would notice quite quickley now when I haven, t preloaded with water in days prior to a long run.
Plus its free, uncomplicated, and actually detoxs the bad stuff. Only thing is I have a well so there is no additives in it. I hate city treated water and cant drink the stuff. However lidl will sort that...get a pallet delivered!!

menoscemo

docjewel wrote: »

Any idea as to where the handiest place to pick these up? online or a sports/cycle shop or would a chemist even have these?

I got them in Amphibian King Ballymount. About €20 for a big jar of them (must be about 200). Should last for years.

coalshed

That's ****e that things didn't work out in Limerick. A great report on a tough day's racing.

It'll make your next marathon all the sweeter.

blockic

docjewel wrote: »

Any idea as to where the handiest place to pick these up?

Also says on the website there that the Edge in Cork is a retailer. Worth giving them a call.

Dilbert75

tomred1N wrote: »

However 3 litres of water a day is not a lot.

Jeez - 3 litres of water during the day, in addition to 6 or 7 cups of tea, seems an awful lot to me. On the other hand I don't add salt to my food so maybe it balances a little?

blockic

Dilbert75 wrote: »

Jeez - 3 litres of water during the day, in addition to 6 or 7 cups of tea, seems an awful lot to me. On the other hand I don't add salt to my food so maybe it balances a little?

I'd have 2.5 -3 litres of pure water most days (+1-2 cups of tea) and the day before the marathon I had between 3-4 litres. So a small increase the day before. I was well hydrated lining up.

But everyone is different. Definitely more pure water over tea in the lead up to the marathon is the way to go though.

Dilbert75

Maybe that's my answer then - inadequate advance hydration. Simple but devastating.

docjewel

blockic wrote: »

Also says on the website there that the Edge in Cork is a retailer. Worth giving them a call.

Tried ringing a few times earlier but no answer, I see Base2Race have them on their website for €22 + another €3 for delivery which doesn't sound too bad.

I would normally drink about 2 litres of water a day with probably 6 to 7 cups of tea(decafinated if that makes a didiffererence?) but most nights I end up drinking a pint if water throughout the night.

blockic

Dilbert75 wrote: »

Maybe that's my answer then - inadequate advance hydration. Simple but devastating.

Didn't work for me did it! :rolleyes: Trial and error is all one can do I guess until the nutrition and hydration aspect is perfected.

tomred1N

Dilbert75 wrote: »

Jeez - 3 litres of water during the day, in addition to 6 or 7 cups of tea, seems an awful lot to me. On the other hand I don't add salt to my food so maybe it balances a little?

ya it sounds a lot alright but there was a time I used to do that to coke, 2 or 3 500ml bottles in the car during the day and more out the fridge at home. I just checked there and 7 pints is 4 litres ( i'm a miles man !). I have that most evenings....I just down a pint or two of water every half hour when passing the kitchen sink. Last week before I ran a half marathon I'd day I had 5 litres of water on Saturday ....nothing then till first water station sunday morning and I'd say I lost most of it as there was sweat dripping off the tip of my cap from mile 3. So not sure what you had on run up to Limerick but given your race times and prep I think some form of dehydration had to be your issue. I guess when you have an improvement curve as steep as yours its easy to slip off it but no doubt you'll bounce back !!

Dilbert75

That's a hell of a lot of Coke! You can be pretty sure you're healthier without that.

Anyway, unless anyone else has any insights into my crash & burn, it's time to look forward instead of backward.

So recovery time: planning a couple of short, gentle runs this week, maybe some cycling too. Anyone got any recovery plans to suggest? And the big question - how long should I wait...till next time?

ncmc

I would say dehydration was definitely part of your problem, if you didn't pee til late that night, then that definitely sounds like hydration was a problem. It's hard to judge how much we should be drinking, it varies so much from person to person. You see some people sweating buckets, and then others don't sweat at all. I swear by the high 5 tabs, I popped half a tablet in every bottle from the water stations in DCM and I find they left me so much more hydrated than water. However I'm lucky in that I can get away with drinking quite little.

However, don't underestimate the effect of your tummy bug. Even the slightest upset can really throw you and leave you very weak. Personally, I'd blame that more than the dehydration, also I'd say the bug contributed to the dehydration.

It's just awful that something out of your control can scupper all that hard work and training. Tough pill to swallow. Hope you're feeling ok a few days on.

ncmc

Whoops sorry, posted at the same time! Forward looking it is from now on

Dilbert75

ncmc wrote: »

Hope you're feeling ok a few days on.

Not a bother! Hope the hols are going well.

Dilbert75

So here I am 8 days on and I have run the sum total of - not a step. It's been a mad week and was followed by a mad weekend (in the non-alcoholic sense). Hopefully I'm nearly at the end of the well-meaning "I heard about...are you ok?" conversations. I'm sick of talking about it now.

So the bike has remained unmoved and the runners are where I unpacked them. Tonight and tomorrow won't change that but there's hope for Wednesday. At least there's hope of that - if the alternative is early morning running then I'll be unfit pretty quickly.

Still haven't firmed up my plans for what next. I was at a talk in work this evening with Billy Walsh and the thing that rang true with me was that they don't pursue medals, they pursue excellence. If you become excellent, the medals follow. There's a lesson in that for me anyway - become fitter, prepare better, improve my technique, increase my endurance, etc. Faster times will follow but they should only be secondary to the goal of being my best.

Runchick

Dilbert75 wrote: »

So here I am 8 days on and I have run the sum total of - not a step. It's been a mad week and was followed by a mad weekend (in the non-alcoholic sense). Hopefully I'm nearly at the end of the well-meaning "I heard about...are you ok?" conversations. I'm sick of talking about it now.

So the bike has remained unmoved and the runners are where I unpacked them. Tonight and tomorrow won't change that but there's hope for Wednesday. At least there's hope of that - if the alternative is early morning running then I'll be unfit pretty quickly.

Still haven't firmed up my plans for what next. I was at a talk in work this evening with Billy Walsh and the thing that rang true with me was that they don't pursue medals, they pursue excellence. If you become excellent, the medals follow. There's a lesson in that for me anyway - become fitter, prepare better, improve my technique, increase my endurance, etc. Faster times will follow but they should only be secondary to the goal of being my best.

Hey Dilbert just dropping by here to see how you are getting on. I hope you get out for a run on Wednesday - that was the one thing that really helped me to move on from Limerick...getting out on the road and remembering how fantastic running is - no plan, no pressure, just for the fun of it...and hey early mornings aren't that bad...I'm quite looking forward to the wee jaunt I have planned for 6am tomorrow

I really like your outlook too - pursuit of excellence - excellent

Dilbert75

Back on the road - 4.92km in 31.01: avg pace 6.18/km, avg HR 127bpm. I think that's about a 10min mile in old money - it's a long time since I ran so slowly.

Late home from work - again - so was facing having either to wait for Mrs D to get home from her run before going out or find plan B. That emerged as asking my daughter if she wanted to go for a spin on her bike. She was delighted and eventually agreed to the route. She took very seriously her responsibilities as my pacer, telling me to slow down when I was picking up speed.

Successful return overall, with only some slight grumbles from my left calf - will head out for the same tomorrow night and maybe Friday too, just to start getting moving again.

career_move

What's the plan now?