Ireland won't be united so let loyalists fly flag – Seamus Heaney

gallag

Thomas_I wrote: »

Disgusting imagination.

It was pretty funny, at least chuck can take up designing tattoos for the more hardcore loyalist if his day job ever goes.

Thomas_I

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Yeah I meant green.
...
I'm talking about the die-hards. Why waste time and energy on appeasing the unreasonable? There is no appeasing them. Appeasing them would be little short of a return to when they could fly their flags, blow flutes, and bang drums where they weren't wanted while being backed by the state.

Those days are over.

They´ll do it anyway, just the area where they´re not wanted should be an matter of regulation by the state.

If you want to have a united Ireland in the future, it´s better to bear in mind that one can´t get rid of them and so it´s better to consider how to deal with them and appeasement seems to be an option in some ways, imo.

Iwasfrozen

Thomas_I wrote: »

The difference between the Royal and the Irish Presidents Standard is in the design of the harp.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Royal_Standard_of_the_United_Kingdom.svg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Flag_President_of_Ireland.svg

The concept looks pretty similar.

Thomas_I

gallag wrote: »

It was pretty funny, at least chuck can take up designing tattoos for the more hardcore loyalist if his day job ever goes.

Even more disgusting.

Thomas_I

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

The concept looks pretty similar.

Indeed it is and I often wondered why they choose the blue background for the Standard of the Irish President, bearing in mind that similarity. I´ve just one explanation for that blue colour background and it could be that if the background would be green it could be taken as the Flag of Leinster.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Flag_of_Leinster.svg

Iwasfrozen

Thomas_I wrote: »

Indeed it is and I often wondered why they choose the blue background for the Standard of the Irish President, bearing in mind that similarity. I´ve just one explanation for that blue colour background and it could be that if the background would be green it could be taken as the Flag of Leinster.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Flag_of_Leinster.svg

That and I would say legitimacy issues. By using a similar symbol to the royal standard the government would have been saying the president not the British monarch is the rightful figure head of the country. I have no proof for this I'm just guessing but it's what I would have done.

Chuck Stone

Thomas_I wrote: »

Even more disgusting.

Relax a wee bit there fella. We're in AH.

Thomas_I

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

That and I would say legitimacy issues. By using a similar symbol to the royal standard the government would have been saying the president not the British monarch is the rightful figure head of the country. I have no proof for this I'm just guessing but it's what I would have done.

Interesting theory, but the design of the Royal Standard (in the shape as it still is today) is older than the Standard of the Irish President.

Lapin

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Are you avoiding my question? Here it is again below for your attention.

Do you respect the democratic decision of the councillors in BCH to fly the union flag on designated days? A simple no/yes answer will suffice.

I respect democracy but I disagree with the councillors decision.

And in a democracy I have the right to disagree and protest against such a decision.

karma_

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

You mean the on that's on the Royal Standard? Surely not.

Blue is the national colour of Ireland.

Good attempt but you must try harder.

Chuck Stone

Lapin wrote: »

I respect democracy but I disagree with the councillors decision.

That's a 'no' then.

You, and they, better get used to the changes that will inevitably take place in the north over the coming years. The once unquestioned primacy of Unionist/Loyalist/British symbols in the now shared spaces of the north is no more.

BonnieBlue. wrote: »

Good. Then stop trying to convince the Ulster Scots people about a United Ireland. Our people don't want anything to do with your kind.

I'm not all that concerned by a UI Keith and well you know it. Equality is my primary concern. If the tribe I come from are happy to have England bankroll the north for the moment then that's fine by me - and would you blame them?

Thomas_I

karma_ wrote: »

Blue is the national colour of Ireland.

Good attempt but you must try harder.

It rather looks as if this has changed:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Patrick's_blue

While green is now the usual national colour of Ireland, "St. Patrick's blue" is still found in some symbols.

karma_

Thomas_I wrote: »

It rather looks as if this has changed:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Patrick's_blue

Everyone associates green of course, officially as far as I know it's still blue.

karma_

BonnieBlue. wrote: »

Why can't you move on? The Ulster people regardless of religion are running Northern Ireland. They really don't need you southern people telling them what to do.

So please stop it and focus on your own bankrupt state.

Chuck is a nordy Keith. Like you and me.

I'm not even going to point out the irony of you telling someone else to 'move on'. Oops!...

Madam

BonnieBlue. wrote: »

Good. Then stop trying to convince the Ulster Scots people about a United Ireland. Our people don't want anything to do with your kind.

As an Ulster Scot could you tell me what kind of people your talking about?

karma_

Madam wrote: »

As an Ulster Scot could you tell me what kind of people your talking about?

And do it in Ulster Scots please as we can all speak English here anyway.

Thomas_I

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Relax a wee bit there fella. We're in AH.

Thanks for that but following this thread, it doesn´t seem to be the "calm down zone" anyway.

Chuck Stone

BonnieBlue. wrote: »

The Ulster people regardless of religion are running Northern Ireland.

And more power to them sez I.

They really don't need you southern people telling them what to do.

Good old loyalist paranoia. The papists are amassing at the border with their water cannons full of holy Roman water to baptise the poor unsuspecting Protestants into Catholicism.

:pac:

Chuck Stone

Thomas_I wrote: »

Thanks for that but following this thread, it doesn´t seem to be the "calm down zone" anyway.

Ah shure if we didn't (attempt) to inject a bit of humour in every now and then we go mental.

The Idyl Race

Chuck Stone wrote: »

And more power to them sez I.



Good old loyalist paranoia. The papists are amassing at the border with their water cannons full of holy Roman water to baptise the poor unsuspecting Protestants into Catholicism.

:pac:

Newton Emerson as always hits the nail on the head - this one from the archives of the Portadown News:

http://www.portadownnews.com/06Jul01.htm

Holy Water Cannons indeed!

Chuck Stone

The Idyl Race wrote: »

Newton Emerson as always hits the nail on the head - this one from the archives of the Portadown News:

http://www.portadownnews.com/06Jul01.htm

Holy Water Cannons indeed!

Queen Elizabeth and Pope John Paul have both appealed for violence at this year's Drumcree parade. "The politics of the 16th century remain close to our heart," said Queen Elizabeth in a statement yesterday. "We urge all our loyal subjects in Portadown to remember their history by endlessly repeating it as violently as possible."

http://www.portadownnews.com/06Jul01.htm

Thomas_I

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-21275947

Some new developments from the "flag front" in Belfast. It seems that it has calmed down a bit, but the protests will go on, more peacefully.

clairefontaine

I don't understand why they didn't put up two flags and just leave them up all the time. All this hullaballoo for nothing.

Dyr

Stick Shaymus Heaney up on the pole and both sides can f**k rocks at him

Mal-Adjusted

Flegs are mighty craic, it seems.
Slightly off topic, but how do the die-hard unionists/loyalists feel about Ireland having a united Rugby team who play in Dublin and in Green? I don't see too many union flags in Lansdowne...

jazz101

Bambi wrote: »

Stick Shaymus Heaney up on the pole and both sides can f**k rocks at him

What's a good guy like Heaney done to deserve that?

Guy's a noble laureate, God knows we don't laud Yeats as our crowning glory enough without slagging off a living Irish legend.

Iwasfrozen

clairefontaine wrote: »

I don't understand why they didn't put up two flags and just leave them up all the time. All this hullaballoo for nothing.

That would have been a hundred times worse.

tipptom

clairefontaine wrote: »

I don't understand why they didn't put up two flags and just leave them up all the time. All this hullaballoo for nothing.

Jebus,imagine them coming down the road to protest,turn the corner and seeing the tricolour fluttering beside the union jack,wouldnt like to be in the first line of defence on that one.

Xivilai

@ BonnieBlue do you guys ever get sick of banging on about Ulster? A province which you guys share with many of "our kind"

Ulster this Ulster that, Ulster everything

woodoo

Xivilai wrote: »

Ulster this Ulster that, Ulster everything

Ulster says no

pragmatic1

**** em. That little experiment called N.Ireland is on borrowed time.

Mal-Adjusted

Xivilai wrote: »

@ BonnieBlue do you guys ever get sick of banging on about Ulster? A province which you guys share with many of "our kind"

Ulster this Ulster that, Ulster everything

I always thought they tried to claim the word Ulster so they wouldn't have to refer to their state as Northern Ireland? Maybe i'm wrong...

Thomas_I

davet82 wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/ireland-wont-be-united-so-let-loyalists-fly-flag-seamus-heaney-3369083.html



He has a point I guess, would you agree?

After a few weeks reflection what is your opinion on the flying of the union jack?

Also will there never be a united Ireland? I always thought maybe in my lifetime but I'm not so sure when i see such a stink kicked up over flags.

Some of your questions has been answered by a recent poll:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-21345997

There seems to be a growing amount of people who rather prefer to have NI remaining in the UK and also a number of people defining themselves as Northern Irish across the Protestants and Catholics. Maybe there is a trend that cements the division instead of growing chances for a UI. This may be backed up by this developing new selfidentity of Northern Irish which even could mean that in case of a break up of the Union by in the event of Scotlands independence. Given a majority of "yes votes" in 2014, it was recently predicted, that Scotlands independence could take place in2016. According to how the remaining parts of the UK would re-constitute their Union, the people in NI could rather opt for their own state than to united with the RoI, if there would be no option for either remaining in a UK without Scotland or there would be no UK anymore at all.

davet82

Thomas_I wrote: »

Some of your questions has been answered by a recent poll:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-21345997

There seems to be a growing amount of people who rather prefer to have NI remaining in the UK and also a number of people defining themselves as Northern Irish across the Protestants and Catholics. Maybe there is a trend that cements the division instead of growing chances for a UI. This may be backed up by this developing new selfidentity of Northern Irish which even could mean that in case of a break up of the Union by in the event of Scotlands independence. Given a majority of "yes votes" in 2014, it was recently predicted, that Scotlands independence could take place in2016. According to how the remaining parts of the UK would re-constitute their Union, the people in NI could rather opt for their own state than to united with the RoI, if there would be no option for either remaining in a UK without Scotland or there would be no UK anymore at all.

i very surprised at the shift in attidudes and identity in the irish/catholic side suporting the union in such a short space of time, amazing actually, it just shows how much potential people have for change

Thomas_I

davet82 wrote: »

i very surprised at the shift in attidudes and identity in the irish/catholic side suporting the union in such a short space of time, amazing actually, it just shows how much potential people have for change

Me too. I was just wondering whether the entire Nationalist community has been omitted in this poll (or just a small number of them has been asked). Maybe the proposed border poll could give more clearance to that matter, but in the present circumstances it´s not wise to call the people to an actually vote on it. If the result of such an vote would be almost the same as from these 1000 people, it´d be a slap in the face for SF.

More interesting in this poll is that nearly 50% regard the current Stormont government as treating all people in NI equally. This could be taken as a sign that democracy is working in NI, at last.

The_Kew_Tour

Just cause you are Catholic does not automatically mean you want United Ireland and vice versa.

There has always been a higher percentage of Catholics that wanted to remain part of UK, then Protestants wanted UI down the years. The figures dont really surprise me tbh.

and anyway I say many people in North realise that the Irish Govnment cant handle 26 counties so having another 6 in our hands would not be such good idea.

Wise people.

Crooked Jack

It must also be remembered that like all polls this comes with something of a warning.
They only asked around 1000 people using very deliberate language but the biggest problem is that they're asking people their opinion on an issue on which there has been no real public debate. The how, when and why of reunification hasn't been hashed out. What it would really mean and what form it would take hasn't been discussed so people are basing their answers on traditional divisions, or fear of rocking the boat or on these unfounded soundbites you hear from people in the pub ("the south cant afford us" being the usual and most idiotic one.)

That, by the way, is not discounting genuine unionism. No doubt the vat majority of people who said they would in favour of the union are just that, genuine unionists.
But until there is a proper debate on reunification and independence and investigations into how, when and why it would or wouldnt work, polls like this are meaningless.

LordSutch

davet82 wrote: »

i very surprised at the shift in attidudes and identity in the irish/catholic side suporting the union in such a short space of time, amazing actually, it just shows how much potential people have for change

But it was the same here at the start of the 20th century, one year the place is bedecked with Union Jacks, Queen Victoria is welcomed with open arms, with Irish Nationalism being only a minority sport . . . . . fast forward a few years to 1918 & suddenly its all change! The Tricolour is hoisted, the Union Jack removed, and Britishness is history, just like that, as Tommy Cooper used to say

afro man

iMyself wrote: »

I hope people in the Republic get to vote on whether we want these nordy scum bags to join our country, Catholic and Protestant alike. It'll be a big fat NO from me to the lot of them.

Fair point we have enough of our ownscum bags living down south

gallag

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

Just cause you are Catholic does not automatically mean you want United Ireland and vice versa.

There has always been a higher percentage of Catholics that wanted to remain part of UK, then Protestants wanted UI down the years. The figures dont really surprise me tbh.

and anyway I say many people in North realise that the Irish Govnment cant handle 26 counties so having another 6 in our hands would not be such good idea.

Wise people.

I am a unionist and a parent, before I had kids I would have no problem suffering hardship for my political convictions but once I had my daughter put in my arms and recently my son all I want is for them to be safe and happy, if my daughter said "daddy, daddy I want a United Ireland" I would probably vote for SF lol. You will find most people are a parent first and being a republican or unionist comes a distant second, when people talk about accepting the inevitable civil war and crippling austerity as a sacrifice worth paying for a dream of a United Ireland they almost certainly have only themselves to think of.

Honestly, if a united Ireland would guarantee saftey, better schools and hospital's, higher quality of life and better jobs I would not be against it but, and please dont get offended here, looking across the boarder the bleak financial outlook and EU imposed austerity, expensive health care, corrupt politicians who seem to lack the good grace to resign and add the inevitable civil war and costs of running N.I and my children probably having to move country to find work it would be a disaster!

gurramok

LordSutch wrote: »

But it was the same here at the start of the 20th century, one year the place is bedecked with Union Jacks, Queen Victoria is welcomed with open arms, with Irish Nationalism being only a minority sport .

Nice revisionism. Those you describe were minority Unionists(both religions) who owned many businesses(for example in Dublin) at the time.

The_Kew_Tour

gallag wrote: »

Honestly, if a united Ireland would guarantee saftey, better schools and hospital's, higher quality of life and better jobs I would not be against it but, and please dont get offended here, looking across the boarder the bleak financial outlook and EU imposed austerity, expensive health care, corrupt politicians who seem to lack the good grace to resign and add the inevitable civil war and costs of running N.I and my children probably having to move country to find work it would be a disaster!

No offense taken and being honest I agree 100%

gurramok

The UK has austerity too, did you not hear about the savage cutbacks in public spending there? The Euro has actually risen against the Sterling pound recently. It ain't black and white with the EU bashing.

Thomas_I

Crooked Jack wrote: »

It must also be remembered that like all polls this comes with something of a warning.
They only asked around 1000 people using very deliberate language but the biggest problem is that they're asking people their opinion on an issue on which there has been no real public debate. The how, when and why of reunification hasn't been hashed out. What it would really mean and what form it would take hasn't been discussed so people are basing their answers on traditional divisions, or fear of rocking the boat or on these unfounded soundbites you hear from people in the pub ("the south cant afford us" being the usual and most idiotic one.)

That, by the way, is not discounting genuine unionism. No doubt the vat majority of people who said they would in favour of the union are just that, genuine unionists.
But until there is a proper debate on reunification and independence and investigations into how, when and why it would or wouldnt work, polls like this are meaningless.

The main point in this poll was the flag issue, the question about a UI was rather secondary. I´ve no idea what you regard as a real public debate on either that flag issue or the question of an UI, but for the first there has been some debate in public, by and through the media and among the elected political representatives in NI. A UI of course was not always part of that debate. As for this flag issue has something to do with identity, the question about a UI came along because they might thought that it suites the poll.

Crooked Jack

gallag wrote: »

I am a unionist and a parent, before I had kids I would have no problem suffering hardship for my political convictions but once I had my daughter put in my arms and recently my son all I want is for them to be safe and happy, if my daughter said "daddy, daddy I want a United Ireland" I would probably vote for SF lol. You will find most people are a parent first and being a republican or unionist comes a distant second, when people talk about accepting the inevitable civil war and crippling austerity as a sacrifice worth paying for a dream of a United Ireland they almost certainly have only themselves to think of.

Honestly, if a united Ireland would guarantee saftey, better schools and hospital's, higher quality of life and better jobs I would not be against it but, and please dont get offended here, looking across the boarder the bleak financial outlook and EU imposed austerity, expensive health care, corrupt politicians who seem to lack the good grace to resign and add the inevitable civil war and costs of running N.I and my children probably having to move country to find work it would be a disaster!

This type of talk is a vague threat unionists use to put southerners off the notion of reunification.
Why would there be a civil war? Why would it be inevitable? What are you basing that on?

Thomas_I

gallag wrote: »

I am a unionist and a parent, before I had kids I would have no problem suffering hardship for my political convictions but once I had my daughter put in my arms and recently my son all I want is for them to be safe and happy, if my daughter said "daddy, daddy I want a United Ireland" I would probably vote for SF lol.

If there would be a majority in NI thinking the way you do, one wouldn´t necessarily had to vote for SF to get this and honestly, I think that your daughter is more inclined to think about anything than a United Ireland.:)

gallag wrote: »

You will find most people are a parent first and being a republican or unionist comes a distant second, when people talk about accepting the inevitable civil war and crippling austerity as a sacrifice worth paying for a dream of a United Ireland they almost certainly have only themselves to think of.

No doubt I believe in your words as far as they concern your own opinion, but I doubt that many others would admit it as you did.

gallag wrote: »

Honestly, if a united Ireland would guarantee saftey, better schools and hospital's, higher quality of life and better jobs I would not be against it but, and please dont get offended here, looking across the boarder the bleak financial outlook and EU imposed austerity, expensive health care, corrupt politicians who seem to lack the good grace to resign and add the inevitable civil war and costs of running N.I and my children probably having to move country to find work it would be a disaster!

Such false promises can be arranged by the average politician to get elected, but honestly, there isn´t such a guarantee to be issued. You neither have the guarantee that all the standards of the UK will still be the same in the next couple of years. Austerity in the UK isn´t just imposed by the EU, it´s on Camerons own political agenda and if you´ve missed that, then you´ve missed the outrages first in London and the in several other locations across the UK in 2011. There are as well some social tensions in GB and the problems which errupted from under the surface might be driven back, but they´re not solved yet.

The inevitable civil war is your nightmare and history mustn´t repeat itself. If this developing new identification with NI which seems to be growing will go further, maybe in one generation a unification of Ireland isn´t such a dividing matter anymore. I don´t know but if one defines oneself as "Northern Irish" rather than just "British or Irish", well that is something that provides common ground, and maybe some common sense as well.

gallag

gurramok wrote: »

The UK has austerity too, did you not hear about the savage cutbacks in public spending there? The Euro has actually risen against the Sterling pound recently. It ain't black and white with the EU bashing.

All that has been cut back are pointless civil service jobs and impressively all those jobs and more have been created in the private sector. Yet ireland still has the highest paid civil service in the world. The UK is in no need of a bail out and all the regulatory bodys are happy with the slow forward progress that the UK are making, irelands biggest export is people, the EU imposed austerity and corrupt government have seen to that, soon the only people able to live in ireland will be the government and its civil service. Here is a thought experiment for you, if ireland is doing better than the UK why do so many irish move to the UK?

Thomas_I

Crooked Jack wrote: »

This type of talk is a vague threat unionists use to put southerners off the notion of reunification.
Why would there be a civil war? Why would it be inevitable? What are you basing that on?

Which kind of arguments do you have to convince him that his fears are farfetched? What benefits would he get in in UI? What about his own identity and so on?

The basis for an UI is to win those people who are opposed to it at the present and to convince them that they would have nothing to lose but rather probably something to win in an UI.

You´ve often said that there is no public debate on that matter, so I´d suggest that you go ahead to kick it off and tell the people on here what´s the advantages and disadvantages they´d get in a UI. I think simply to tell them that after nearly 100 years Ireland would be re-united is not enough to them.

Crooked Jack

Thomas_I wrote: »

Which kind of arguments do you have to convince him that his fears are farfetched? What benefits would he get in in UI? What about his own identity and so on?

The basis for an UI is to win those people who are opposed to it at the present and to convince them that they would have nothing to lose but rather probably something to win in an UI.

You´ve often said that there is no public debate on that matter, so I´d suggest that you go ahead to kick it off and tell the people on here what´s the advantages and disadvantages they´d get in a UI. I think simply to tell them that after nearly 100 years Ireland would be re-united is not enough to them.

As I said in another thread

"Well that's the problem. I'm one person. No one person has all the answers. My reasons for being in favour of reunification and independence only work for me. Someone with different concerns may not be interested in the same aspects of independence as me or may have different worries about it or questions I cant answer.

That's why I think there should be a public debate and investigation on it and really find out what would and wouldn't work and what the benefits or pitfalls would be, cover all bases and then have people make their decision."

The civil war thing is a typical unionist threat that we've seen worked out on the streets over the past few months. "Well, i personally abhor violence and I'll accept what the majority wants...but the loyalists would go crazy. best just forget about it." That type of thing

gurramok

gallag wrote: »

All that has been cut back are pointless civil service jobs and impressively all those jobs and more have been created in the private sector. Yet ireland still has the highest paid civil service in the world. The UK is in no need of a bail out and all the regulatory bodys are happy with the slow forward progress that the UK are making, irelands biggest export is people, the EU imposed austerity and corrupt government have seen to that, soon the only people able to live in ireland will be the government and its civil service. Here is a thought experiment for you, if ireland is doing better than the UK why do so many irish move to the UK?

Who said Ireland is doing better that the UK, where did you spring that one from?
The UK is the nearest job market to Ireland and is the cheapest and easiest job market to get into.