Gerry Adams Statement on the killing of Adrian Donohoe and Jerry McCabe

pablomakaveli

Nodin wrote: »

In your opinion. Others beg to differ.

You'd have grounds to make that claim had the conflict not evolved into tit for tat sectarian killings which gained nothing in the end.

Happyman42

pablomakaveli wrote: »

You'd have grounds to make that claim had the conflict not evolved into tit for tat sectarian killings which gained nothing in the end.

Yeh, there was no sectarianism before the lid came off.

pablomakaveli

Happyman42 wrote: »

Yeh, there was no sectarianism before the lid came off.

I never said there wasnt.

But the likes of the Kingsmill massacre or Miami Showband killings were pointless from a military perspective. They were killed for the sake killing.

Zombrex

Nodin wrote: »

If you can find an armed conflict where bad things didn't happen, you'll be doing well.

Another fallacy. Because struggle is unpredictable and bad things can happen, doesn't justify when people choose to carry out evil acts.

Happyman42

pablomakaveli wrote: »

I never said there wasnt.

And generations where consigned to put up with it with the blessing of the Irish and British governments.
The lid was always going to come off at some point and they did nothing, nothing to stop it happening.

pablomakaveli

Happyman42 wrote: »

And generations where consigned to put up with it with the blessing of the Irish and British governments.
The lid was always going to come off at some point and they did nothing, nothing to stop it happening.

But does that justify the above incidents i mentioned?

Did those killings achieve anything in the so called "armed struggle"?

Zombrex

Happyman42 wrote: »

Any rational person can see that what happened that day was part of a plan (it may have been wrong but it was a planned operation) and that what happened in Adare was a mistake that was acknowledged immediately as being a horrendous one by Gerry Adams himself.

What?

The IRA mistakenly attempted to rob a post office van?

They mistakenly collided a car into the van attempting to run it off the road.

They then mistakenly jumped out of the car and open fired on the van, mistakenly hitting Jerry McCabe.

Sinn Fein then mistakenly demanded that the killers be released under the Good Friday Agreement?

Happyman42 wrote: »

To attempt to partly exonerate those responsible for Bloody Sunday (that covering it up mean't they where ashamed) is just embarrassing doffing of the hat. They are STILL doing the same thing around the world.

Who said they were ashamed? They knew it was wrong was the point. They knew straight away that they had done something immoral and instantly started trying to cover it up, like pathetic criminals.

When the IRA do something wrong they don't even do that. They strut around heads held high convinced at how they are fighting the good fight so anything goes. Imagine how you would feel if the British Army and Government were still gone on about how Bloody Sunday was "regrettable but necessary"

Even you just called the robbery a "mistake", which is deeply insulting to the memory of Jerry McCabe. Pathetic.

RandomName2

Happyman42 wrote: »

You'll need to make some sense to continue in the debate.

You're saying that Northern Ireland and the republic of Ireland are essentially the same thing, that the border is a figment of one's imagination. In fact, anybody who believes in the border is a believer in 'partitonism' [sic]

The opposite of that word you invented is unionism, which does nicely reflect how unionism initially did not want any border but rather attempt to maintain the status quo of all of Ireland being in the union. That's just an ironic allusion, as it is the opposite of what you were trying to convey as you are suggesting that anybody who does not conflate Northern Ireland with the republic to be a West Brtit or something.

Anyway, in terms of why this thread is addressing a Northern Ireland party, and a man from Northern Ireland is because both are sitting, as you rightly point out, in the Dail. Moreover, the crimes which this thread are addressing (namely the murder of the two Gardai that Gerry Adams... apologised.. for..?) are members of the republic of Ireland's police force.

Why a tangent concerning irrelevant and inaccurate analogies from Westminster or Stormont have to be wheeled out as if facts cannot stand by themselves, and as if moral ambiguity is an immutable aspect of Irish political discussion is frankly beyond me.

Nodin

Zombrex wrote: »

Another fallacy. Because struggle is unpredictable and bad things can happen, doesn't justify when people choose to carry out evil acts.

I never said it did. I stated the obvious - in any armed conflict, bad will happen. Criticising the struggle in the north solely on those criteria is a nonsense, because all armed conflicts generate these incidents.

Happyman42

pablomakaveli wrote: »

But does that justify the above incidents i mentioned?

Did those killings achieve anything in the so called "armed struggle"?

The 'have you stopped beating your wife' question emerges.

What justifies indiscrimate killings by so called 'legitimate' armies of a state like Britian or America? All armies use terror, that's what happens in the real world that high ground moralists don't like to inhabit.
Those killings happened, all killings are regretable. My moral compass is always pointed at those who try to stop killing, who do what they say they are going to do.

Happyman42

Zombrex wrote: »

Who said they were ashamed? They knew it was wrong was the point. They knew straight away that they had done something immoral and instantly started trying to cover it up, like pathetic criminals.

And the other stuff they are still covering up? Are they not supposed to learn from their past too?

When the IRA do something wrong they don't even do that. They strut around heads held high convinced at how they are fighting the good fight so anything goes. Imagine how you would feel if the British Army and Government were still gone on about how Bloody Sunday was "regrettable but necessary"

Even you just called the robbery a "mistake", which is deeply insulting to the memory of Jerry McCabe. Pathetic.

The killing of Jerry McCabe was a mistake. I fully believe that it was a renegade action and was and always will be inexcuseable.
All armies have renegades, who do unauthorised things, another fact of life in the real world unfortunately.

oscarBravo

Happyman42 wrote: »

The killing of Jerry McCabe was a mistake. I fully believe that it was a renegade action and was and always will be inexcuseable.
All armies have renegades, who do unauthorised things, another fact of life in the real world unfortunately.

If it was a renegade action, and if it was inexcusable, then why the campaign to include the inexcusable renegades under the terms of the GFA? Why were the renegade murderers supported right throughout their sentence by Sinn Féin members, up to the point of collecting them on their release from prison?

If a guard was involved in a serious violent crime and was sentenced to jail time, do you think the minister for justice would be photographed smiling with him in his prison cell? Do you think the GRA would campaign for his early release? Do you think a Fine Gael TD who collected him on his release from prison would face no questions?

The "renegade" badge is nothing more than a fig leaf; it's a term that's used in a hand-waving manner to dismiss the legitimate questions that still remain over Sinn Féin's true attitude to the murderers of a member of AGS.

As for what Gerry Adams has to do to satisfy me (and others who share my perspective) - I doubt there's anything he could do to satisfy me. I'm not his target demographic. He has to mince his words in order to carefully avoid alienating that minority of the population who would be offended at the suggestion that it was genuinely inexcusable - in the sense of never even attempting to make an excuse for it - to murder a Garda in cold blood.

As long as he feels the need to pander to that mentality, there's nothing he can say that will change how I feel about him or his party.

Zombrex

Happyman42 wrote: »

And the other stuff they are still covering up? Are they not supposed to learn from their past too?

Learn? Those involved should be prosecuted and sentenced.

So why if you can see Bloody Sunday, and the other immoral and illegal atrocities the British Army carried out, and then covered up, do you defend the IRA for their immoral and undefendable actions that they don't even acknowledge were wrong?

Or is it when the British Army do it is rightly denounced as a crime, but when the IRA do it, well that is just the unfortunately side effect of a moral and justified struggle. :rolleyes:

Happyman42 wrote: »

The killing of Jerry McCabe was a mistake.

Which part? Was the robbery a mistake? Was the opening fire on the van a mistake?

Happyman42 wrote: »

I fully believe that it was a renegade action and was and always will be inexcuseable.

Oh please, you cannot be that naive. That excuse didn't wash with Bloody Sunday, and it doesn't wash with Jerry McCabe.

The IRA have already admitted that it was authorized by "low level" persons within the organization. And if they were acting as criminals, not soldiers, why have Sinn Fein demanded that they be released under the Good Friday Agreement.

When the British Army, or Irish Army, or any army, have people acting as renegades it is expected that they hand them over to be prosecuted. If they don't it is a cover up, an act by its very nature that demonstrates the immorality of the white wash.

Yet you make excuses for IRA as if all of this is perfectly normal behavior.

LordSutch

GRMA wrote: »

Quite unexpected I think, what he said about McCabe

Overdue many would say.

Indeed, too little too late . . .

K-9

We are just going over old ground at this stage, whether that be Dt. McCabe, Bloody Sunday or the usual stuff brought up on these discussions.

A politician using an opportune time to political advantage shocker. Closing arguments people.

Happyman42

oscarBravo wrote: »

If it was a renegade action, and if it was inexcusable, then why the campaign to include the inexcusable renegades under the terms of the GFA? Why were the renegade murderers supported right throughout their sentence by Sinn Féin members, up to the point of collecting them on their release from prison?

I don't know the answer to that question, I presume that army council where satisfied that they didn't set out to kill Jerry McCabe and damage the organisation.
The IRA where, after all, rather famous for dealing with those who intentionally damaged the organisation from within. And this action certainly damaged the organisation.

If a guard was involved in a serious violent crime and was sentenced to jail time, do you think the minister for justice would be photographed smiling with him in his prison cell? Do you think the GRA would campaign for his early release? Do you think a Fine Gael TD who collected him on his release from prison would face no questions?

Oh yeh, we live in a state where the Gardai have always behaved like model citizens!

The "renegade" badge is nothing more than a fig leaf; it's a term that's used in a hand-waving manner to dismiss the legitimate questions that still remain over Sinn Féin's true attitude to the murderers of a member of AGS.

Can you show any evidence that members of the AGS where targets of the IRA during the conflict? Don't you think there would be more dead Gardai if that was the case? Apply some common sense here.

As for what Gerry Adams has to do to satisfy me (and others who share my perspective) - I doubt there's anything he could do to satisfy me. I'm not his target demographic. He has to mince his words in order to carefully avoid alienating that minority of the population who would be offended at the suggestion that it was genuinely inexcusable - in the sense of never even attempting to make an excuse for it - to murder a Garda in cold blood.

As long as he feels the need to pander to that mentality, there's nothing he can say that will change how I feel about him or his party.

You are entitled to your politic allegiances, what you are not entitled to do, is block the political aspirations of another democratic party, which is what Enda et al attempt to do when they engage in the juvenile tuanting and barracking.

GRMA

oscarBravo wrote: »

If it was a renegade action, and if it was inexcusable, then why the campaign to include the inexcusable renegades under the terms of the GFA? Why were the renegade murderers supported right throughout their sentence by Sinn Féin members, up to the point of collecting them on their release from prison?

If a guard was involved in a serious violent crime and was sentenced to jail time, do you think the minister for justice would be photographed smiling with him in his prison cell? Do you think the GRA would campaign for his early release? Do you think a Fine Gael TD who collected him on his release from prison would face no questions?

The "renegade" badge is nothing more than a fig leaf; it's a term that's used in a hand-waving manner to dismiss the legitimate questions that still remain over Sinn Féin's true attitude to the murderers of a member of AGS.

As for what Gerry Adams has to do to satisfy me (and others who share my perspective) - I doubt there's anything he could do to satisfy me. I'm not his target demographic. He has to mince his words in order to carefully avoid alienating that minority of the population who would be offended at the suggestion that it was genuinely inexcusable - in the sense of never even attempting to make an excuse for it - to murder a Garda in cold blood.

As long as he feels the need to pander to that mentality, there's nothing he can say that will change how I feel about him or his party.

We had figured out by now that you were one of those who have an inability to move on but it was good of you to just directly tell us.

People like yourself are fast becoming, if are not already given the progress made, an irrelevance outside the rabid hive mind of independent newspapers.

God knows how you will deal with it when Adams and co are in power across all Ireland

pablomakaveli

Happyman42 wrote: »

The 'have you stopped beating your wife' question emerges.

What justifies indiscrimate killings by so called 'legitimate' armies of a state like Britian or America? All armies use terror, that's what happens in the real world that high ground moralists don't like to inhabit.
Those killings happened, all killings are regretable. My moral compass is always pointed at those who try to stop killing, who do what they say they are going to do.

But in the case of a legitimate army they are bound by international law. They dont go out aiming to kill innocents. If they do its grossly illegal and they are prosecuted for their crimes.

Happyman42

Zombrex wrote: »

Learn? Those involved should be prosecuted and sentenced.

So why if you can see Bloody Sunday, and the other immoral and illegal atrocities the British Army carried out, and then covered up, do you defend the IRA for their immoral and undefendable actions that they don't even acknowledge were wrong?

Or is it when the British Army do it is rightly denounced as a crime, but when the IRA do it, well that is just the unfortunately side effect of a moral and justified struggle. :rolleyes:

Where have I defended the killing of Jerry McCabe? I'm not in the business of defending either the IRA or anybody else. I appraise each event separately, and try to work out why it happened and if there is a way to stop it happening again. You need to listen to what is being said, not what you would like to believe was said.

Which part? Was the robbery a mistake? Was the opening fire on the van a mistake?

I don't believe that they meant to kill Jerry McCabe. Makes no sense that they would.

Oh please, you cannot be that naive. That excuse didn't wash with Bloody Sunday, and it doesn't wash with Jerry McCabe.

The IRA have already admitted that it was authorized by "low level" persons within the organization. And if they were acting as criminals, not soldiers, why have Sinn Fein demanded that they be released under the Good Friday Agreement.

They were on active service, they where entitled to be released under the GFA, however unpalatable that was. I had tremendous difficulty with the release of prisoners, I thought it potentially could destabilise the situation further. But I was convinced by the arguments made that it was neccessary to achieve the goal. And it did, thankfully, because people kept their word and their part of the deal.

Zombrex

Happyman42 wrote: »

What justifies indiscrimate killings by so called 'legitimate' armies of a state like Britian or America? All armies use terror, that's what happens in the real world that high ground moralists don't like to inhabit.
Those killings happened, all killings are regretable. My moral compass is always pointed at those who try to stop killing, who do what they say they are going to do.

Lol, right. :rolleyes: So the problem with Bloody Sunday is that the British Army didn't declare up front that they were just going to keep killing Catholics until they got what they wanted.

If they had done that, like the IRA so honorably did, then it would have made everything "regrettable" but just an unfortunate side effect of armed struggle.

Lelantos

GRMA wrote: »

We had figured out by now that you were one of those who have an inability to move on but it was good of you to just directly tell us.

People like yourself are fast becoming, if are not already given the progress made, an irrelevance outside the rabid hive mind of independent newspapers.

God knows how you will deal with it when Adams and co are in power across all Ireland

Adams in power, thank you, that made me smile, lunatics running the asylum.

Happyman42

Zombrex wrote: »

Lol, right. :rolleyes: So the problem with Bloody Sunday is that the British Army didn't declare up front that they were just going to keep killing Catholics until they got what they wanted.

If they had done that, like the IRA so honorably did, then it would have made everything "regrettable" but just an unfortunate side effect of armed struggle.

Wot?

Zombrex

Happyman42 wrote: »

Where have I defended the killing of Jerry McCabe? I'm not in the business of defending either the IRA or anybody else.

You said it was a "mistake", though strangely you have been rather unspecific as to where that mistake actually was. They fell on their guns apparently :rolleyes:

It wasn't a "mistake", it was a cold blooded murder as part of an illegal and immoral robbery against the legitimate police force of this country, authorized by members of an unmandated unrepresented illegal army.

Happyman42 wrote: »

I appraise each event separately, and try to work out why it happened and if there is a way to stop it happening again.

You know what stops armed thugs thinking calling yourself a freedom fighter gives you the right to rob and murder guards? Throwing their asses in jail and denouncement by all of society.

Not faux apologies followed by demands that they are released as political prisoners.

Happyman42 wrote: »

I don't believe that they meant to kill Jerry McCabe. Makes no sense that they would.

What, they just watched too much episodes of the A-Team and thought that emptying 15 assault rifle rounds into a car with two men trapped inside would just scare them off?

Happyman42 wrote: »

They were on active service, they where entitled to be released under the GFA, however unpalatable that was.

They were either renegade soldiers, and as such criminals, or they were legitimate soldiers acting under orders, in which case the organization is responsible for McCabe's death and the person who ordered the raid should be held responsible.

It cannot be both.

For example, if Robert Bales is found guilty of illegally killing Afgan civilians he isn't going to be let out because he was on active service at the time. That would be freaking ridiculous. He is going to be sentenced to death. That is how actual legitimate armies work.

Happyman42

Lelantos wrote: »

Adams in power, thank you, that made me smile, lunatics running the asylum.

It's inevitable, given our recent history of coalition government. Labour decimated and FF out in the cold. Not likely to be a single party in power for a long time.
Could they do any worse than the 'lunatics' of the last 20 years?

Zombrex

Happyman42 wrote: »

Wot?

You said you respect the army that does what it says it will do. So presumably, since you are such a big fan of excusing atrocities just so long as the army responsible says they are going to do it, you would be perfectly fine with Bloody Sunday if the British Army had just declared they planned on doing it.

Or is it that you are only a fan of these armies if they are the IRA :rolleyes:

Zombrex

Lelantos wrote: »

Adams in power, thank you, that made me smile, lunatics running the asylum.

I know, its laughable.

Adams will never be in power. The only thing SF can do is win local elections and act as a protest vote.

This is why they always think they will do better in general elections than they do, because they let things like European elections (which are again protest votes) go to their heads.

It is sad really, they always look so shocked to find out people were voting for them, they were voting against what ever government is sitting at the time.

Lelantos

Happyman42 wrote: »

It's inevitable, given our recent history of coalition government. Labour decimated and FF out in the cold. Not likely to be a single party in power for a long time.
Could they do any worse than the 'lunatics' of the last 20 years?

As a political party with no concept of fiscal reality, yes, but it would almost be worth it to see how spectacularly they would balls it up.

Happyman42

Zombrex wrote: »

You said it was a "mistake", though strangely you have been rather unspecific as to where that mistake actually was. They fell on their guns apparently :rolleyes:

It wasn't a "mistake", it was a cold blooded murder as part of an illegal and immoral robbery against the legitimate police force of this country, authorized by members of an unmandated unrepresented illegal army.



You know what stops armed thugs thinking calling yourself a freedom fighter gives you the right to rob and murder guards? Throwing their asses in jail and denouncement by all of society.

Not faux apologies followed by demands that they are released as political prisoners.



What, they just watched too much episodes of the A-Team and thought that emptying 15 assault rifle rounds into a car with two men trapped inside would just scare them off?



They were either renegade soldiers, and as such criminals, or they were legitimate soldiers acting under orders, in which case the organization is responsible for McCabe's death and the person who ordered the raid should be held responsible.

It cannot be both.

For example, if Robert Bales is found guilty of illegally killing Afgan civilians he isn't going to be let out because he was on active service at the time. That would be freaking ridiculous. He is going to be sentenced to death. That is how actual legitimate armies work.

Can you show any evidence that the IRA saw members of the Gardai as targets?
They didn't, and they where careful not to. That is what I mean by 'mistake'. Some body lost their head and did something they hadn't intended to do. That was horrendous and SF rightly called it that at the time.

As I said, I didn't like the idea of prisoner releases, not many did, but it was agreed to by the IRISH GOVERNMENT and the British. The Alliance even called the Irish hypocritical for not releasing them.
I didn't make the agreement, I just voted for it.
If people had to conform to your impossible moral code, no agreement could have been reached. Why can't you see that? Nothing is that simple and clearcut in the real world, the real world where people get killed everyday when responsible people and those vested with the power to change things, don't do their duty.


While you are at it, can you show me a 'killing' that is not 'cold blooded'?

Happyman42

Zombrex wrote: »

You said you respect the army that does what it says it will do. So presumably, since you are such a big fan of excusing atrocities just so long as the army responsible says they are going to do it, you would be perfectly fine with Bloody Sunday if the British Army had just declared they planned on doing it.

Or is it that you are only a fan of these armies if they are the IRA :rolleyes:

For god's sake, would you do me a favour and actually read what I wrote.

GRMA

Happyman42 wrote: »

It's inevitable, given our recent history of coalition government. Labour decimated and FF out in the cold. Not likely to be a single party in power for a long time.
Could they do any worse than the 'lunatics' of the last 20 years?

And when the forgotton (to some) good folk up north can vote in presidential elections well sure Gerry might like that job after Higgins is done.

Happyman42

Lelantos wrote: »

As a political party with no concept of fiscal reality, yes, but it would almost be worth it to see how spectacularly they would balls it up.

The country is destoryed by the fiscal genius of the previous government and with every passing day is going further downhill because of the fiscal genius of the present crowd.
SF are appealing to more and more voters everyday. Not everybody is blind, they can see who has been doing what they said they would do...pursue democratic politics. May not be Gerry Adams that leads them to power but they will be contenders.

Lelantos

Happyman42 wrote: »

The country is destoryed by the fiscal genius of the previous government and with every passing day is going further downhill because of the fiscal genius of the present crowd.
SF are appealing to more and more voters everyday. Not everybody is blind, they can see who has been doing what they said they would do...pursue democratic politics. May not be Gerry Adams that leads them to power but they will be contenders.

SF don't have a viable fiscal plan. No one denies that, except Sinn Fein.
As for being in power, no, the major political parties will not deal with the old guard, its that simple. Sinn Fein are the new Greens, a protest vote, 2 general elections down the road they'll be the New spent force of Irish politics

Happyman42

Lelantos wrote: »

SF don't have a viable fiscal plan.

Enlighten us...who has? One that protects the ordinary Irish person?

K-9

Some PM conversations to be had if ye feel the need.

fasttalkerchat

Zombrex wrote: »

Lol, right. :rolleyes: So the problem with Bloody Sunday is that the British Army didn't declare up front that they were just going to keep killing Catholics until they got what they wanted.

If they had done that, like the IRA so honorably did, then it would have made everything "regrettable" but just an unfortunate side effect of armed struggle.

I think you just accidentally made a fair point. That was why the shoot to kill policy was so controversial. If the brits openly declared war on Ireland/Northern Ireland there could have been no complaints that terrorists were murdering their heroes.

K-9

Time to end it here. Going over old ground.