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Alternative Promotion suggestion
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30-01-2013 10:48pm#1
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I had a big reply written up - & then i was timed out
Long story short then, I havent specifically looked for teams who want to lose ranking points. I dont think it makes sense for teams to do this (longer term) as it then puts them in the same position trying to get promotion the next season (assuming they want to go back up).
Promotion has become a function really of a good cup run.
Take for example a team who is stronger in their league (they might have a weak league ranking points wise for example). There isnt many ranking points to be gained.
So what are your options then to gain ranking points? Friendlies and a cup run.
So friendlies -lets assume that all the top teams in leagues want to go up. They all are attempting to win friendlies to gain ranking points. But you only gain a quarter of the normal points transfer in friendlies. So it takes a lot longer to make up the points differential. Plus you need to strike a balance between a team you know you can beat and one you will gain ranking points off, because if you lose a game it puts you at a disadavantge. Any team thats looking to promote is then naturally not drawn to play you (unless they are considerably better -and then they wont gain ranking points and wont make any difference to them). So net net theres not a lot to gain from friendlies (Admittedly I am playing on mondays & even managed to convince & beat one or two teams on the promotion table).
So then the next source of ranking points is a good cup run. Cup is a lottery though. You could end up being drawn against Ruffians in round 3/4. Even if you beat them(unlikely), their ranking would be so much better that you wont gain any ranking points! Or you could be lucky and end up playing teams who play wnim all the way through to the quarters and gain loads of ranking points.
For me that makes promotion (as long as you win your league) then become a function of a cup run and not winning the league0 -
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Best team on the day is fine for the playoff...but it doesnt apply to the auto promotion table in the first place. I reckon my team would beat most on the promotion table, but yet because I was unlucky in the cup this season I'm not in the auto promote spots.
my suggestion of 5/6 playoff is to increase the movement of teams up/down the pyramid. More movement means less stagnation & more of a challenge for teams. The way the league is going is that (partly because of more IGT and partly because of bigger supporter base) the top league has the same 2-3 teams getting promoted into it/relegated out of it every season.
Div 2 is going the same way...(Albeit to a lesser extent). Teams coming down are far superior to teams in Div 3 so pretty much auto promote back (mainly because of cup runs)!!
That's fine that you think you could beat most of the autopromote teams, but shouldn't you then be able to beat one of the 7/8 places teams? certainly over 2 seasons you should?
I was stuck in Division three for many seasons due to having a stronger team in it, so my choices were to either improve until I was at a level to beat everyone in my league or moan.
Not to sound harsh, but if you are winning your league easily, but not beating the teams in the playoff then your team is not good enough for that division IMO.
Yes the autopromote might be slightly unfairly done, but this was changed in response to strong teams not getting autopromote due to having tough leagues. I agree that maybe a balance between points and ranking is best, but then you are into a massive complicated function as to what is the balance to be struck and how to calculate it AND have it transparent to all teams.
I never bothered too much about the autopromote etc, I wanted my team to be able to survive each time promoted. This is what you should aim for IMO. ignore autopromote and focus on winning in the higher division, if you win the playoff means you know you have a chance!
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That's fine that you think you could beat most of the autopromote teams, but shouldn't you then be able to beat one of the 7/8 places teams? certainly over 2 seasons you should?
That's pretty much what I was getting at/ about to say.
A Div 2 team that's avoided auto-relegation by playing in Div 2 for a season, shouldn't be forced into a battle with a Div 2 team just so a Div 3 team can auto-promote. The Div 3 team will get their chance to prove their ability in the qualifier. If they're a better team then they'll win and go up, if not then they're not at the level required to stay afloat in that league.
If I manage to avoid auto-relegation (which is going to involve some pretty lucky matches over the next three weeks) there's a definite chance of me being beaten in the qualifier and going down. Every chance that it'll be your team and you'll beat me and go up. You've beaten me before, you can beat me again, it's about the quality of your team and my team, not the quality of my team relative to GufinGulfini or whoever comes 5th.
i think the league structure needs to be changed altogether. so whoever finished first in there league goes up. this is how it works
1
2
4
8
16
and so on the bottum two go down and the winner of there leagues go up, it would make for very competitive leagues really if you ask me. ranking would then only decide what league you go to
Explain that one again? Not quite grasping what you're suggesting
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He's sayingExplain that one again? Not quite grasping what you're suggesting
Division 1 - 1 league
Division 2 - 2 leagues
Division 3 - 4 Leagues
etc so only the winner of each league goes through. removes playoffs though which I think is an important part of deciding who stays and goes.0 -
That's fine that you think you could beat most of the autopromote teams, but shouldn't you then be able to beat one of the 7/8 places teams? certainly over 2 seasons you should?
I'm not sure having to beat 7/8 is really relevant. My point was that my team is probably(not to be cocky) better than most of the teams above the autopromote line. But they are going to promote because their ranking points are higher.I was stuck in Division three for many seasons due to having a stronger team in it, so my choices were to either improve until I was at a level to beat everyone in my league or moan.
I've been that team. I relegated from div 2 about 5 seasons ago. Got stuck in a league with a much better team (Munster Maoris). I got better & beat him in league finals in the last season or two...then he went bot.Not to sound harsh, but if you are winning your league easily, but not beating the teams in the playoff then your team is not good enough for that division IMO.
I appreciate that fact. I've improved my team a lot this season and would think that I would (hopefully) win any playoff I might be in. The thing about the play off is the home game advantage that the 5/6 place team have. If I were at home that advantage may mean I win the game. This advantage skews the playoff in favour of the higher division teamYes the autopromote might be slightly unfairly done, but this was changed in response to strong teams not getting autopromote due to having tough leagues. I agree that maybe a balance between points and ranking is best, but then you are into a massive complicated function as to what is the balance to be struck and how to calculate it AND have it transparent to all teams.
Not to sound argumentative...the autopromote was to reduce the number of teams in bot leagues autopromoting over teams in human leagues. Teams in tough leagues would lose ranking points against other teams in their leagues...so would find it harder to get into autopromote place. Now that human teams are better distributed, this problem should no longer be in play.I never bothered too much about the autopromote etc, I wanted my team to be able to survive each time promoted. This is what you should aim for IMO. ignore autopromote and focus on winning in the higher division, if you win the playoff means you know you have a chance!
I do want to stay up. Thats part of why I've upgraded my squad this year instead of sitting on the cash. I'm reasonably sure I would (and possibly at the expense of somebody who autopromotes ahead of me).
Fewi - my suggestion about 5/6 playoff is to increase the movements of teams within leagues. Gives a new impedus to teams who are otherwise stuck in leagues. Just ask the teams in my league who've been stuck with me /Munster Maori over the last 5 seasons. I'm sure they'll be glad to see the back of me. A couple of teams moved country to get out (Simpletons for example).0 -
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I think the issue we have here is the perception of those teams finishing in 5th and 6th place in Division 2. It's a hell of a battle down in the bottom 4 places as Division 2 tends to be split as follows - 2 or 3 huge monsters guaranteed to finish in the top 3 places, these are teams who probably are not far off those in Divison 1. That leaves 5 teams battling for their lives, their reward for staying above the line should not be to playoff against each other but it is corrcetly to play against a team who probably didn't have to do any scouting or tactical changes to win their league. If you want to get your div 2 entry then you ahve to earn it by scouting and finding a way to beat those teams who just battled their way to a second chance.
That's spot on. Exactly what I'm on about. At the moment in my league you've got Apoel, Mauling Bear and Forza, the 3 giants who are completely safe and haven't really lost a match to a minnow all season.
Below those three is complete carnage. Grubber are currently in 4th and will likely stay there, but until last week there was only little over a bonus point win between 8th and 4th. I've never had a bigger battle since my first time in Div 3 (which makes sense) so coming 6th is a major win for me.
If I then had to play 5th place and let someone who could have spent the season cruising in Div 3 take my place on auto, oh, I'd be fuming.
Fair enough if I get a chance to meet them on the pitch, then I'll know I was beaten by a better team.Fewi - my suggestion about 5/6 playoff is to increase the movements of teams within leagues. Gives a new impedus to teams who are otherwise stuck in leagues. Just ask the teams in my league who've been stuck with me /Munster Maori over the last 5 seasons. I'm sure they'll be glad to see the back of me. A couple of teams moved country to get out (Simpletons for example).
Ah, no need to ask around, I was in that exact same situation. Fingal Bears and my team were just left stuck in III.9 (I think?) for just as many seasons, always with some bigger team descending and dominating. You just have to work towards the eventual goal of smashing the dominant team. And if you are the dominant team, you have to work towards winning that qualification battle.
I managed the aul promote by allowing the dominant team to think he was unchallenged, and then snap his head off in the play-offs. You better watch out that there's not some silver cup winner hiding in your shadow, just studying your tactics and waiting to pounce
I know the away-game qualifier can be daunting, but looking at your team's CSR, if you had to qualify against me you've such a superiority that you can't use home ground advantage as an excuse. And if I've beaten everyone apart from the top 3 in my league (well, I'm being optimistic that I'm gonna hurt the guy in last place next week) then you'd also stand a damn good shot if you were against any of them.0 -
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I just want to reiterate my main point. I think that the use of ranking points to determine the positioning on the autopromotion table isnt a very good way of determining who the best teams are...mainly due to the problems with the ranking systems. If you are a strong team in a weak league its difficult to gain ranking points this way. If you are unlucky in the cup this avenue is also gone. Friendlies only provide a quarter of the ranking points.....and then you need to have teams accept games against you. Not all teams will accept friendlies against somebody who may beat them (especially if you are looking for ranking points yourself to promote).
Fewi -This is exactly my point. No disrespect to you, your team or the teams in your league. I think could do alright in one or two of the Div 2 leagues, and have a fighting chance of staying up in the other 2. I dont think all the teams in the auto promotion table could say the same (again no disrespect to them).
I'm not using being the away team as being an excuse or daunting. My point is that its skewing the game in favour of the team in the higher league. I dont think thats fair either.
Yeah, you're probably better than a lot of the people in the auto-promote zone, but they had to get those ranking points from somewhere. Granted, if nobody is relegated to your league, then you're always the top dog and have no-one to make gains off, but if you're that comfortable in your league then you should be able to get those ranking points in the cup and maintain them in your league.
I know ranking points aren't a good indicator of team strength, you'll often see teams in lower divisions better ranked than some in higher divisions, but they have to earn those points at some point.
Looking at your league, it contains a bot and loads of weak teams. You don't have the ranking points because you haven't had any relatively decent opponents. Look at Ormond flying sky-high, because he's been going toe-to-toe with Vit G who has a team as good as yours but is in 2nd place.
You're less than a point behind that auto-promote, sure just challenge TR076 and Barracuda Rugby to an aul friendly, especially Barracuda, a win would take from them, give to you and up you'd go.
Actually, just realised Barracuda is Couch Potatoes... they'd probably steal your ranking points and convert them to liquid deliciousness.
Actually, now that I look at it, most of those teams above the auto-promote are crackin' good teams, the majority of whom have played in Div II for a spell, so it's not like back in the days where the lads in the easy leagues dominated. The system now actually favours "leagues of death" rather than punishing them.
As for the home ground advantage, sure they have to play it somewhere, and again, after fighting tooth and claw in their Div for a season, sure don't they deserve a bit of an edge. 0 -
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Part of the problem is moving countries, I think that's stupid, you shouldn't be able to move from Division 1 in Kenya after years of hoarding cash from cup runs and prize money with only about 20 teams to compete with, and also building up brilliant support base and facilities with the ease of competition over there, to division 4 in Ireland!!
The team I was promoted with from DIV IV this season for example, came to division 3, made it to the quarter finals of the Irish cup and will play-off with the relegated team from division 2 for promotion!! That's just stupid imo, he's at least a division 2 standard team and it makes it unfair on the whole league imo if a Div II standard team is the team that came up to replace a div III relegation standard team...
So I'd remove the ability to change countries (but its a good money spinner for the owners).
I like the idea of play-offs with fellow promotion chasers to get promoted also, as only the best teams will go up, but I think the whole crux is that how long will players hang around in Div IV or III without ever getting promoted as it's too competetive, you kind of need the yo-yoing of going up and down leagues, as going up is massive in terms of developing your squad etc. if you're coming from Div IV and players will just get bored if it's too hard to go up a league - it's the whole buzz of the game, a new league and trying to establish yourself in it!
I get the idea of the OP, but I think for the most part, it's good the way it is, only teams moving countries massively skew the leagues which is stupid and unrealistic, the full Toulouse squad, fan base and money will never move to AIL division III for example...0 -
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