Customs warning!

I Armour I

Evade wrote: »

I might be reading this wrong but doesn't that say the items in (i) are legally considered firearm components? What does that have to do with visible lasers?

That's exactly my point. That is the only piece of legislation info that is even remotely similar to lasers. Since lasers (as defined above) aren't in the act and because they aren't able to be mounted on real firearms (recoil would wreck them) then lasers aren't illegal.

Relevant to the OP, Dave, his package shouldn't have been destroyed because nothing was illegal.

--Armour

Evade

Lil Armour wrote: »

That's exactly my point. That is the only piece of legislation info that is even remotely similar to lasers. Since lasers (as defined above) aren't in the act and because they aren't able to be mounted on real firearms (recoil would wreck them) then lasers aren't illegal.

I'm pretty sure you can mount a laser to real steel and as far as I know that's also illegal here.

Have you tried looking up lasers in health and safety? From what I remember the 5mW 630-680nm limit is because at that power and wavelength you can reflexively blink before any damage can be done.

I Armour I

Oh that it is, but the cheaper ones weren't designed to sustain being mounted to real steel.

Well the only things I could find were HSE stuff but there is no Irish law on lasers or their use in airsoft... Which does explain why clubs/ concerts can use them also... either way there is no law about them and it is down to the person to use them illegally or for their own devices. Sight owners will ultimately say if you can or can't use them.


Hope I contributed in some way :P

--Armour

ironclaw

Evade wrote: »

Going by the guidelines given to the IAA green lasers are illegal to use on an airsoft device because the green part of the spectrum is around 495-570nm.

Like Joules, you can't quote Joules without specifying the weight of BB used to calculate it. Light calculations are far more complicated (i.e Power calculations) but you cannot ban a device purely because it sits inside a wavelength range. That would pretty much ban anything that produces green (or whatever wavelength) light. Unless the law makes provision as to how that light is produced (I'm pretty sure it doesn't)

Its quite possible to focus low wattage LED lights to hugely blinding and incapacitating levels.

Evade

ironclaw wrote: »

Like Joules, you can't quote Joules without specifying the weight of BB used to calculate it.

Yes you can. One joule is one joule whether it's a .20g bb, a .25g bb or a 1kg bb.

ironclaw wrote: »

Light calculations are far more complicated (i.e Power calculations) but you cannot ban a device purely because it sits inside a wavelength range. That would pretty much ban anything that produces green (or whatever wavelength) light. Unless the law makes provision as to how that light is produced (I'm pretty sure it doesn't)

Its quite possible to focus low wattage LED lights to hugely blinding and incapacitating levels.

The guideline given to the IAA and in the charter here only applies to lasers.

ironclaw

Yes you can. One joule is one joule whether it's a .20g bb, a .25g bb or a 1kg bb.

Sorry, my bad typo. Joules should read fps in that post. I was talking in an abstract example of fps and joules. My point was you can't ban a wavelength (Analogous to fps for example) without specifying the output power (Analogous to BB weight for example), how you measured it, generated it, focused it etc.

There are LED based systems that are just as hazardous to human vision that have no restrictions on their use.

sliabh

Lil Armour wrote: »

Oh that it is, but the cheaper ones weren't designed to sustain being mounted to real steel.

Well the only things I could find were HSE stuff but there is no Irish law on lasers or their use in airsoft... Which does explain why clubs/ concerts can use them also... either way there is no law about them and it is down to the person to use them illegally or for their own devices. Sight owners will ultimately say if you can or can't use them.

Lasers are covered in Irish law, but through Health and Safety regulations. The fact that they are being used for recreational purposes is incidental.

The Health and Safety Authority has information on Optical Radiation on their site.

It appears that the relevant legislation was enacted in 2010: SAFETY, HEALTH AND WELFARE AT WORK (GENERAL
APPLICATION) (AMENDMENT) REGULATIONS 2010.

Be warned the legislation gets pretty technical pretty quick. But they do make the point that the risk associated with lasers is dependent on both the power and the frequency (the nm value for the beam which is the colour yoyu see).

There is an easier to read leaflet on optical radiation here. This one makes the distinction between classes of lasers.

A 3R Laser is something up to 5mW in power (but the exact limit will depend on the wavelength - you can work backwards from the formulae in the 2010 Regulations). The HSA says

"no special conditions are required."

The level above is Class 3B which is in the nasty zone. 3B is from 5mW up to 500mw (again dependent on the wavelength). Some of the comments there are:

Training for workers using Class 3B and Class 4 lasers will almost
always be required.

This doesn't answer the question of the legal status of lasers. But my point is that they are more likely covered under Health and Safety regulations.

When I was digging around on this I did come across this transcript of two members of the Irish Airline Pilots Association asking a Dail committee for action to restrict lasers in 2011. I don't think any legislation has been passed since then. But there may be some regulation or other restriction passed that doesn't require an act in the Dail.

sliabh

ironclaw wrote: »

There are LED based systems that are just as hazardous to human vision that have no restrictions on their use.

The big difference is that lasers are coherent light - so the energy is focused on a much smaller spot making it considerably more intense - and hence dangerous.

Evade

ironclaw wrote: »

Sorry, my bad typo. Joules should read fps in that post. I was talking in an abstract example of fps and joules. My point was you can't ban a wavelength (Analogous to fps for example) without specifying the output power (Analogous to BB weight for example), how you measured it, generated it, focused it etc.

The power is less than 5mW and it's a laser (does the exact method of producing the laser makes a difference?). How does the method of measuring it make a difference?

ironclaw wrote: »

There are LED based systems that are just as hazardous to human vision that have no restrictions on their use.

I don't doubt it, staring in to a carbon arc lamp isn't good for your eyes either.

sliabh

Lil Armour wrote: »

To top that that off, Acts in Ireland, under it's constitution need to be consented to in a court of law. I.E if two men wnat to fight and neither man wants to press charges, no consent. Neither man has to abide by that law as long as their circumstance is their only.

While I am not a lawyer I can tell you that this is self evidently cobblers. Otherwise duelling (to take one example) would still be legal in Ireland.

A criminal offence is an criminal offence regardless of whether the individual parties want to purse it. Otherwise murder would be easy to get away with, and victim intimidation (to get people to decline to press charges) would be rife.

And as an aside, we would probably have no-limit airsoft as shooting people with >1J guns could cease to be classed as assault :-)

ironclaw

sliabh wrote: »

The big difference is that lasers are coherent light - so the energy is focused on a much smaller spot making it considerably more intense - and hence dangerous.

You do realise LED's are, give or take, a single wavelength as well yes? And the reason for the slow adoption into household lighting is the strong presence of UV in some 'white' LED's and the unknown effects it has on human eye? You do realise some LED's require protective eye wear when in use?

The power is less than 5mW and it's a laser (does the exact method of producing the laser makes a difference?). How does the method of measuring it make a difference?

A laser when powered that consumes 5mW, a laser than produces 5mW of heat, a laser that produces 5mW of light (Which is an incorrect measurement, because you'd need to say if that was Lux, Lumens etc and if applicable what area it was being measured on) are all entirely different.

A 50W 'old school' light bulb could easily be outdone by a 1W LED light in terms of raw light output. So you can't make comparisons on the scale of wattage alone. In fact its chalk and cheese.

You cannot simply state a greater than 5mW laser is illegal without stating quite a lot of parameters to go with it.

Evade

ironclaw wrote: »

You do realise LED's are, give or take, a single wavelength as well yes? And the reason for the slow adoption into household lighting is the strong presence of UV in some 'white' LED's and the unknown effects it has on human eye? You do realise some LED's require protective eye wear when in use?

So because LEDs can be dangerous and are unregulated we shouldn't regulate lasers?

ironclaw wrote: »

A laser when powered that consumes 5mW, a laser than produces 5mW of heat, a laser that produces 5mW of light (Which is an incorrect measurement, because you'd need to say if that was Lux, Lumens etc and if applicable what area it was being measured on) are all entirely different.

As far as I know it's 5 mW total output.

ironclaw wrote: »

A 50W 'old school' light bulb could easily be outdone by a 1W LED light in terms of raw light output. So you can't make comparisons on the scale of wattage alone. In fact its chalk and cheese.

You cannot simply state a greater than 5mW laser is illegal without stating quite a lot of parameters to go with it.

Yes different methods of generating light are more efficient than others but luckily we're only concerned with one method, lasers.

Kashkai

My neighbour dropped in the letter from Customs as it was delivered to them by accident. It says very little tbh, something like "goods seized under some 19th century act and I have 30 days to appeal this decision". Then there's some small print about being compensated for the goods by Revenue and being prosecuted (a little schizophrenic if you ask me!)

I have the right to appeal, in writing, to the person who seized the order. The laser and the M4 "lithium powered torch" are specifically mention in the letter and there doesn't appear to be any differentiation made between them by Customs.

So I now have to appeal to the person who seized the order in the first place. Hardly impartial now is he? My proposed grounds for the appeal are that:

1. There is nothing on the Customs website that lists lasers of any colour under their "prohibited goods"

2. There is no mention of what Act/Regulation that outlaws lasers

3. There is no reason to seize the torch as well

4. The example of using this laser to down an aircraft is pie in the sky (excuse the pun). As an ex ATC officer, I'm on solid ground with that argument.

Anyone else have any opinions/angles I can use?

Thanks

I Armour I

That their purpose is for "toys" (sorry) and the goods and their use aren't illicit in the republic of Ireland or within the EU.

S.E.A.L.s

sliabh wrote: »

duelling (to take one example) would still be legal in Ireland.

As interesting as this thread is, I'd really like to hear from our legal eagles, about the status of duelling in Ireland

thermo

SEALs_Ireland wrote: »

As interesting as this thread is, I'd really like to hear from our legal eagles, about the status of duelling in Ireland

deulling is illegal, however it is still legal in paraguay as long as both parties are registered blood donors.

on topic, i hope the situation resolves itself for you dave.

S.E.A.L.s

thermo wrote: »

deulling is illegal, however it is still legal in paraguay as long as both parties are registered blood donors.

Thank you for answering my question and solving my holiday plans, it looks like I'm heading to the southern hemisphere

Kashkai

Cheers Thermo (and Armour for the legal stuff)

Tbh, I'd settle for just getting the M4 hand guard with integrated torch. The laser was an impulse buy as I thought it'd help me get more shots in during my backyard plinking as it got dark. I have the feeling Customs won't admit that perhaps they got it wrong (at least in relation to the hand guard).

As an aside, a quick google of "green laser Ireland" this evening through up loads of vendors selling them in this country. eBay is awash with Irish based vendors selling them. Plus a few well known Irish shops (incl Airsoft retailers) stock green lasers. Why pick on me?

Ok, I'll shut up now on the subject but I'll let you know how I eventually get on.

Atb

thermo

SEALs_Ireland wrote: »

Thank you for answering my question and solving my holiday plans, it looks like I'm heading to the southern hemisphere

if your planning on deulling and its your first time doing so only fight to first blood, kinda ease yourself into it.

thermo

dave maybe send a pm to fayer, he seems to be well brushed up on laws pertaining to airsoft and airsoft related stuff in this country.

Untamedlemon

thermo wrote: »

if your planning on deulling and its your first time doing so only fight to first blood, kinda ease yourself into it.

Some pro tips right here but I think ill stick to my non blood sheding sport of airsoft.......sorry if im offending anyone but I like my limbs as they are!!!!!

Kashkai

Untamedlemon wrote: »

Some pro tips right here but I think ill stick to my non blood sheding sport of airsoft.......sorry if im offending anyone but I like my limbs as they are!!!!!

If you haven't shed blood yet while skirmishing, you've been very lucky. I've had to endure workmates slagging me over my "shaving nicks" on a Monday morning. Little do they know that these shaving cuts are due to me getting shot in the face, losing some skin and having blood dripping onto my bdu. Or am I just very unfortunate

Untamedlemon

Prosperous Dave wrote: »

If you haven't shed blood yet while skirmishing, you've been very lucky. I've had to endure workmates slagging me over my "shaving nicks" on a Monday morning. Little do they know that these shaving cuts are due to me getting shot in the face, losing some skin and having blood dripping onto my bdu. Or am I just very unfortunate

I wear full head gear and body gear so you can never see even a single piece of my skin ..........*correction*.........except when people think its funny to pull the quick release on my ciras vest

sliabh

SEALs_Ireland wrote: »

Thank you for answering my question and solving my holiday plans, it looks like I'm heading to the southern hemisphere

Remember when you are away that most honourable gentleman in Europe (and much of the US) always follow the Code Duello, which funnily enough was drawn up in Clonmel in 1777.

sliabh

ironclaw wrote: »

You do realise LED's are, give or take, a single wavelength as well yes? And the reason for the slow adoption into household lighting is the strong presence of UV in some 'white' LED's and the unknown effects it has on human eye? You do realise some LED's require protective eye wear when in use?

With any non-laser light (light LEDs, incandescent bulbs etc) if you try bringing all the light to a point then as you attempt to focus it or use a smaller aperture you will get diffraction and the light will spread out again. As a laser light is coherent then you can bring the light to a point (or at least a very small area). This is important as it means all the energy of the beam (from the photons) is dumped into the target area. As area increases with the square of the diameter the size of the target area is key to understanding how risky a light source is. Double the area, and you spread the light over 4 times the area. But there is no way you will bring a non-coherent light source to a point that is only twice the diameter of a laser. 10 times would be doing well. So the energy dumped onto the surface would be at least 1/100th of what a laser at the same level will provide.

A laser when powered that consumes 5mW, a laser than produces 5mW of heat, a laser that produces 5mW of light (Which is an incorrect measurement, because you'd need to say if that was Lux, Lumens etc and if applicable what area it was being measured on) are all entirely different.

Nope, as the power rating of the laser is a measure of the energy that the beam itself has, and not what it will draw from the power source - just like we rate airsoft guns based on the energy of the bb leaving the barrel, and not what was put into the piston, or gearbox, or taken from the battery.

On Lumens, I will quite wikipedia on the difference between radiant flux (total power) and luminous flux (visible light):

The lumen (symbol: lm) is the SI derived unit of luminous flux, a measure of the total "amount" of visible light emitted by a source. Luminous flux differs from power (radiant flux) in that luminous flux measurements reflect the varying sensitivity of the human eye to different wavelengths of light, while radiant flux measurements indicate the total power of all light emitted, independent of the eye's ability to perceive it. A lux is one lumen per square meter

This distinction is important as lasers (particularly those driven by modern diodes) put out energy in more the the spectrum than just the part you see - in particular in IR wavelengths, which may or may not be filtered depending on the quality of the laser you are using.

ironclaw

sliabh wrote: »

Nope, as the power rating of the laser is a measure of the energy that the beam itself

Again I will make the point you cannot just say 'a 5mW laser' is illegal as you must specify if you are measuring the peak or average power two very different things. That was what I was trying to say when I made the different meanings of 5mW in the various aspects of a laser. You can't just say '5mW' The correct way would be '5mW Peak Power' etc.

Laser Power: The optical power level emitted by the laser in a sensor. The power may be specified as an average power, or as a peak power as well as an average if the sensor emits pulses or intermittent light output. All other factors being equal, the maximum range increase in proportion to the square root of the laser power: If the power is quadrupled, the maximum range will be doubled. Laser power is expressed in milliwatts (mW) or Watts.

Kashkai

Ok so I appealed this seizure of my green laser (and M4 hand guard torch) on the grounds that there is no apparent law against green lasers either on the statute books or on Revenue's own website. In addition I cited the fact that my own quick search on google threw up at least half a dozen vendors of green lasers based here in Ireland, including some very well known household names!

I received a response that my case has been passed to the prosecution and anti fraud section in Dublin 15. Now what??? Will my next post be from Mountjoy??

TheHamster

Just don't bend down in the showers, we'll have a whip round to get you a file and a cake so you can execute a daring escape.

Untamedlemon

Prosperous Dave wrote: »

Ok so I appealed this seizure of my green laser (and M4 hand guard torch) on the grounds that there is no apparent law against green lasers either on the statute books or on Revenue's own website. In addition I cited the fact that my own quick search on google threw up at least half a dozen vendors of green lasers based here in Ireland, including some very well known household names!

I received a response that my case has been passed to the prosecution and anti fraud section in Dublin 15. Now what??? Will my next post be from Mountjoy??

Anti-fraud....how has this got anything to do with fraud??!!
They really dont want you to have that laser back

guttenberg

Irish bureaucracy at it's finest! Your door will be knocked down at 5 in the morning and you'll be hauled off in cuffs I'm predicting!! but seriously, forget about it, presumably whomever gets the report will actually look up what was destroyed versus what is actually banned and realise they were in the wrong, if not they'll ring and sort it. If it's wrongly destroyed presumably they have to pay for a replacement?