What are the Irish laws in relation to emulation?

Gotham

I want to know - specifically to Ireland - what the laws are in relation to emulation.

I would like links to (or instructions on how to find) written laws and acts that relate to emulation.

Things I want clarified (in Irish Law):

Emulators - are they illegal? (unlikely, but important)

Roms - are they illegal to download?
Roms - are they illegal to create?
Roms - are they illegal to modify?
Roms - are they illegal to acquire them if you have purchased the original game?

Bios Files - all the same questions as roms above.

Abandonware - is there a time limit on copyright, and would certain roms become public domain?

Additional info related to emulation is welcome.

Please don't post in the thread with opinion. I'm looking for cited evidence, written laws. I want to see the actual words with my own eyes, wherever they may be. If such a thing cant be linked, I would appreciate some direction in finding the literature. I know for many Irish laws, we have simply copied the English laws. However since then, many of them have been amended, which is why it's important to get clarification on the subject.

I'm neither condemning or condoning emulation - I'm merely on a fact checking project.

Thanks!

o1s1n

If it's copywrited, you cannot duplicate it.

If it's not, you can.

Simple as that!

Gotham

o1s1n wrote: »

If it's copywrited, you cannot duplicate it.

If it's not, you can.

Simple as that!

It's not as simple as that. There are laws that allow you to backup data. This is why I would prefer you to cite your sources instead of giving opinion.

ResearchWill

Gotham wrote: »

It's not as simple as that. There are laws that allow you to backup data. This is why I would prefer you to cite your sources instead of giving opinion.

A good start, http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2000/en/act/pub/0028/index.html

Fair-use is an important word in copying anysuch work that may have protection.

But in answer to the backup question

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2000/en/act/pub/0028/sec0080.html#sec80

80.—(1) It is not an infringement of the copyright in a computer program for a lawful user of a copy of the computer program to make a back-up copy of it which it is necessary for him or her to have for the purposes of his or her lawful use.


(2) For the purposes of this section and sections 81 and 82, a person is a “lawful user” of a computer program where, whether under a licence to undertake any act restricted by the copyright in the program or otherwise, he or she has a right to use the program, and “lawful use” shall be construed accordingly.

Have not read this Article but it may be of interest, I assume law in this Area would be pretty much the same. http://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&ved=0CD4QFjAD&url=http%3A%2F%2Fidp.uoc.edu%2Fojs%2Findex.php%2Fidp%2Farticle%2Fdownload%2Fn14-farrand%2F1388&ei=BJwKUb_KAYWWhQfV6YGgDw&usg=AFQjCNGxiiuDpeDqIhE3J-38hYWTys0Tqw&bvm=bv.41642243,d.ZG4

o1s1n

Gotham wrote: »

It's not as simple as that. There are laws that allow you to backup data. This is why I would prefer you to cite your sources instead of giving opinion.

I mean in relation to emulation and rom downloads. Of course its not illegal to back up your games.

Myrddin

Gotham wrote: »

Please don't post in the thread with opinion. I'm looking for cited evidence, written laws.

Why don't you ask in the Legal Discussion forum? All we have here are our opinions. If you want someone to do legal homework for you why not ask those more informed? As for your questions, I'll certainly have a go at answering them but unfortunately its only my opinion

Emulators - are they illegal? (unlikely, but important) No, unless they contain copyright protected code. If Emulators are illegal, Sony, Microsoft & Nintendo are all breaking the law as all three use emulation to offer backwards compatibility.

Roms - are they illegal to download? No, unless they are copyright protected.
Roms - are they illegal to create? Why would something be illegal to create? Or do you mean recreate? If so, no unless they are copyright protected.
Roms - are they illegal to modify? No, unless they are or contain copyright protected code
Roms - are they illegal to acquire them if you have purchased the original game? That one I'm not sure of. What I do know is if something you own is protected by some sort of anti-copy protection, its illegal to evade such protection.

Bios Files - all the same questions as roms above - BIOS files are almost always copy protected, written for specific hardware. These you will find are never distributed with emulators & therefore seem a different kettle of fish.

Abandonware - is there a time limit on copyright, and would certain roms become public domain? I don't think any time limit applies. Certain roms like Vectrex roms are entirely free, legal to own & are public domain.

Emulation is entirely legal, as said above, one example of its legal useage is to offer backwards compatibility on current gen consoles for older games.

Gotham

o1s1n wrote: »

I mean in relation to emulation and rom downloads. Of course its not illegal to back up your games.

I'm sure youve heard the concept on a lot of emulation sites that if you own the game (or a licence for the game) then possession of the rom is not illegal.

The person who hosted the rom may be infringing law, but you have simply retrieved a backup of the data you have a licence to use. Is that Illegal? I dont know?

If you would like to imagine it in a more interesting way, lets say that you download Diablo 3 from a torrent client. (The official client is a torrent client also). Now you cannot play Diablo 3 without a real account (a licence). Do you think it's illegal that you torrented Diablo 3 after paying for the game? Maybe it is? Those cases dont sound like I've done anything wrong.

These questions are not simple to answer and in every country it can vary. I'm merely seeking to get some facts specific to Ireland.

Myrddin

Gotham wrote: »

These questions are not simple to answer and in every country it can vary. I'm merely seeking to get some facts specific to Ireland.

True that, but our backward & contradictory legal system likely won't clarify much for you in those cases. To be best of my knowledge, its not illegal to own a backup of something you already own...but to evade the copyprotection of something, whether you own it or not, is against the law.

Gotham

EnterNow wrote: »

Why don't you ask in the Legal Discussion forum? All we have here are our opinions. If you want someone to do legal homework for you why not ask those more informed? As for your questions,

I could try the Legal Discussion section, thanks. I'm not sure if I'll find any experts in emulation there but I can try.

Emulators - are they illegal? (unlikely, but important) No, unless they contain copyright protected code. If Emulators are illegal, Sony, Microsoft & Nintendo are all breaking the law as all three use emulation to offer backwards compatibility.

I understand what you mean, but the emulators those companies have designed are emulating architecture and patents that those companies have the rights to use. Just to clarify what I meant.

Roms - are they illegal to create? Why would something be illegal to create? Or do you mean recreate? If so, no unless they are copyright protected.

I was talking about dumping roms, which may be some form of copyright circumvention.

Thanks for your input.

o1s1n

Emulation sites have always had dubious notices on them. I remember another one where if you delete the copywrited material within 24 hours it's not illegal.

Most of it is bull.

We've discussed here before the legalities of downloading material you already own. It's an interesting one, but as far as I know, there has never been a precedent set in court.

I doubt it would stand up. If it did, anyone out there who was possible prosecuted downloading copywrited material could just produce the media in physical format and say they were obtaining their legal backup.

Myrddin

Gotham wrote: »

I understand what you mean, but the emulators those companies have designed are emulating architecture and patents that those companies have the rights to use. Just to clarify what I meant.

Yep true. But if you take the likes of a Megadrive emulator, the emulators are coded up based on publicly available chip specifications such as the Motorola 68000 cpu. Sega don't own that processor, the system etc are built around it meaning you can freely code up an emulator to emulate chips that are freely documented. The copyright issue arises when you need hardware BIOS files. The PS1 emulator needs a BIOS file for example, & it won't run without one. Such a file would be owned by Sony & illegal to have/distribute.

I was talking about dumping roms, which may be some form of copyright circumvention.

Thanks for your input.

Dumping roms, is a greyer area. Is the rom protected against dumping by using a proprietary protection system? If so, then yes, to the best of my knowledge evading such protection is against the law whether you own the cart already or not. CD/DVD/BD are all protected by protection systems. The way the law gets around the "I already own the content" argument is by making it illegal not to dump the contents, but to evade the protection.

This might not be valid in Ireland though as you already mentioned

o1s1n

On the note of dumping roms - I've dumped loads now with both modern hardware and hardware contemporary to the software - I cant say I've seen any evidence to show there is any form of protection against this practice.

Why would there be? Joe soap wouldnt have had this gear back in the day. Same with the mega cd. The prohibitive cost of duplication hardware was the copy protection.

Myrddin

o1s1n wrote: »

On the note of dumping roms - I've dumped loads now with both modern hardware and hardware contemporary to the software - I cant say I've seen any evidence to show there is any form of protection against this practice.

Why would there be? Joe soap wouldnt have had this gear back in the day. Same with the mega cd. The prohibitive cost of duplication hardware was the copy protection.

Then in those cases you could argue, assuming you already have the game, that dumping it or downloading it is not illegal. As you said above, none of this has ever been tested & probably never will be

o1s1n

EnterNow wrote: »

Then in those cases you could argue, assuming you already have the game, that dumping it or downloading it is not illegal. As you said above, none of this has ever been tested & probably never will be

It might come down to a dumping from the source thing combined with code tampering.

Roms downloaded from the net are not always the same as the rom in your cart. Some have fixed headers/been altered to run correctly in an emulator.

Therefore you wouldnt be downloading a backup of your physical release but instead an illegally tampered with rom image.

o1s1n

By the way, the more I read the OP, the more I think this is legal homework.

OP - do your own research!!! :P

Gotham

o1s1n wrote: »

By the way, the more I read the OP, the more I think this is legal homework.

OP - do your own research!!! :P

It's homework for myself really. My college days are behind me.

I know I stuck some bullet points in there but I was trying to focus the direction of discussion. As far as requesting citation, I don't think anyone should trust what people say without citation... even if they sincerely believe it.

I have considered compiling the info into a blog post, it's an exercise I like to do after I research stuff. Again, such a blog post wouldn't hold much water without citations.

Myrddin

Gotham wrote: »

I have considered compiling the info into a blog post, it's an exercise I like to do after I research stuff. Again, such a blog post wouldn't hold much water without citations.

The thing is, the law has never tested any of this & the linked citation earlier in the thread doesn't account for separate copy protection mechanisms which in themselves come with a warning not to evade by punishment of xyz.

I don't think you'll find the clarification your looking for

EnterNow

EnterNow wrote: »

The thing is, the law has never tested any of this ..I don't think you'll find the clarification your looking for

That's the key point in relation to all this. There's no specific coverage for it in Irish law, and as the Irish justice system is based on precedent (which there currently isn't because it's never been tested in court) there's no position to speak of, so while one interpretation of the law could argue its illegal, another interpretation could argue equally effectively that the first interpretation was based on outdated concepts which fail to take into account the changing nature of digital copyrights and modern concepts like backup rights, fair use, etc. The law in ireland on this (as on many other things) is woefully out of date, and until a judge makes a clear decision and sets a precedent in a test case, or the law is updated, that's how it will stay.

In relation to emulators, they in and of themselves are fine. In relation to roms, it's less straightforward, but its not strictly illegal until there's been a case and a judgement, and there's unlikely to be one because Ireland is not a jurisdiction that anyone who would take such a case would operate in as their major market. USA, Japan, china, etc are all much more likely options because that's where the big publishers operate, and eventually Ireland will likely just update its laws to copy whatever current best practice is agreed on in those locations...eventually. Once we get through the other small items like revamping family law, financial and corporate regulation, personal insolvency, abortion, etc, etc, then we can move on to the really meaty stuff, and take on the callous gangsters ripping off 20 year old video games from struggling billionaire publishers...

Example: there was a precedent case a year or so ago where one of the major music publishers here lost their complaint against a guy they accused of sharing thousands of music albums via the net. It was a carefully chosen test case. The judge threw it out, even though the guy was clearly getting away with it, because his lawyer argued that the law didn't make provision for what he had done. In short, there was no specific law against it, and he couldn't punish the guy based on a dubious or arguable interpretation of out of date laws. The music companies were furious and it highlighted the need for proper digital media legislation, but that was the end of it for now. Until that legislative change happens, that case sets a precedent, and its still not quite legal but not strictly illegal to share or download music peer to peer.

Emulation and roms are quite likely to fall into the same bracket legally, but as there's unlikely to be any case here for the foreseeable future it's not likely to ever be resolved and will probably just continue as a grey area.

Gotham

Thanks everyone for the great info you've provided, please provide more if you can. I'm going to let you know what got me started on this topic.
I've emulated for years. Despite the fact that I legitimately own about 10 thousand games over the past 20 years, I've still downloaded roms that I didn't "own the licence" to use.

Recently some scandal has arisen between a Forbes writer (Erik Kain) and a Penny Arcade Writer (Ben Kuchera).
http://www.giantbomb.com/forums/general-discussion/30/ben-kuchera-starts-twitter-smear-campagin-against-eric-kain/576873/

The Forbes writer made a topic about a new game that is coming out for the NES (yes you've read that right).
The game was in development years ago, and the rom was leaked online since then. But now the game is about to be sold for $60 in 2013.
Erik, not being entirely clear on the laws regarding emulation, posted some links to emulation sites, Ben accused him of promoting piracy.
It's all a bit vague for the outsider because some tweets and articles were deleted and edited since, there is also some scandal involving Giant Bomb siding with Ben, and Ben's employer (Gabe) posting contradictory positions on "bullying".

I'm siding with Erik, he did make a mistake in his article which he corrected and apologised for, but the quality of his previous games related articles are far more insightful than pretty much every PA article ever. Ben was a complete dick to him, claiming that he was a filthy pirate and he was destroying developers livelihoods, he even advocated ruining Eriks career over it and still wont apologise. The sh1tstorm that started on twitter a few days ago, got me thinking about different laws in different companies.
I know this is an American case, and the laws seem to be pretty clear over there, but I wanted to explore the idea of a similar scenario overseas.

Hercule

im calling the gardaí on a guy I know - he is sitting on roms for the entire back catalog for the SNES/genesis and most of MAME. Its time someone took this monster down.

I can see it on the news "Gardai seize record haul of computer games images" (the vast majority of which, can't be bought from their original makers anymore) - "These ROM files have a street value of about €10 euro" - A statement for the gardai department of anti-video game piracy stated that "The gardaí take these victimless crimes very seriously, we will be recommending that the offenders are punished to the maximum level the law allows"

Sarcasm hat off
The gardaí have better things to be doing (such as policing real crime) - they will get involved in the cases of counterfeit xbox/PS3/wii games games - but in the case of the vast majority of retro systems one could argue that emulation is positive as this is a source of advertising for games on Virtual console/SEGA classic collections.

Gotham

Hercule wrote: »

The gardaí have better things to be doing (such as policing real crime) - they will get involved in the cases of counterfeit xbox/PS3/wii games games - but in the case of the vast majority of retro systems one could argue that emulation is positive as this is a source of advertising for games on Virtual console/SEGA classic collections.

Hah, well clearly I'm not expecting the Gardaí to do anything about this stuff for a long time, I would actually complain about wasted resources.

I wonder how it would go if I called them up and say that "I torrented Lady Gaga's latest album and I'm turning myself in" (I know that's a crime on many levels.)

I do find it strange that we live in a country that has such a strange way of dealing with "crime". The stuff the Traffic Corps pulls people over for are ridiculous though, entering a bus lane a fraction to early... etc. But I'm getting off topic.

o1s1n

Gotham wrote: »

The Forbes writer made a topic about a new game that is coming out for the NES (yes you've read that right).
The game was in development years ago, and the rom was leaked online since then. But now the game is about to be sold for $60 in 2013.
Erik, not being entirely clear on the laws regarding emulation, posted some links to emulation sites, Ben accused him of promoting piracy.
It's all a bit vague for the outsider because some tweets and articles were deleted and edited since, there is also some scandal involving Giant Bomb siding with Ben, and Ben's employer (Gabe) posting contradictory positions on "bullying".

I'm siding with Erik, he did make a mistake in his article which he corrected and apologised for, but the quality of his previous games related articles are far more insightful than pretty much every PA article ever. Ben was a complete dick to him, claiming that he was a filthy pirate and he was destroying developers livelihoods, he even advocated ruining Eriks career over it and still wont apologise. The sh1tstorm that started on twitter a few days ago, got me thinking about different laws in different companies.
I know this is an American case, and the laws seem to be pretty clear over there, but I wanted to explore the idea of a similar scenario overseas.

Sounds like a load of blogger's/tweeters/writers waving their dicks and egos around to be honest. I tend to ignore anyone who takes the whole thing to that level of seriousness. I don't know if you follow the athiest online communities at all, but there has been a lot of similar stuff going on with them lately like that. It's fairly pathetic and cringy to be honest.

If someone posts a link to an emulation site there is nothing wrong with that. It only becomes a 'you're a stinky dirty pirate' issue if you're purposely linking to rom images.

Anyone who jumps on a crusade to ruin someone's career for naively linking to emulation sources deserves a steel toe cap up the arse.

Anyway, I'd be very surprised if any games collector didn't have every classic library of games on a HDD somewhere. Buying and collecting originals is no better as it's all a second hand market, so it's not like the developers are getting any money.

Something else we haven't touched on in this thread is how emulation it is used for archiving games history. Many of which would have been long lost due to either bit rot/disc rot/developers not caring about the games.

Gotham

Yeah some of my tape collection has already deteriorated beyond recovery.
I sometimes dread checking them in case many more are gone. I have the roms of pretty much all of them on PC, so I still have that at least.

As for the writers being involved in the squabble, I think it's important to not brush it under the carpet. There are large publishers involved and the employees should have some kind of tact or professionalism even outside work. I really hate the corruption in the games industry and the games journalism industry, it's like everyone ignores the stupid **** that goes on behind the scenes. Paid reviews are so rampant that it's been the done thing since games magazines have existed.

Metacritic User Reviews are probably the closest thing I found myself agreeing to. That's not alight, considering the amount of magazines out there and the amount people pay for them.
Giantbomb used to be great for unbiased reviews because they never accepted bribes for reviews, but thats not been the case as of late, where large companies (Nintento) give them free gear to butter them up. These guys try to express these issues Instig8iveJournalism and Gather Your Party.

Again I went on a bit of tangent and I'll stop there.

briany

Gotham wrote: »

Hah, well clearly I'm not expecting the Gardaí to do anything about this stuff for a long time, I would actually complain about wasted resources.

I'd say a few of them have emulators installed on their computers and their phones. I'm not expecting the Gardaí to anything about console emulation and rom distribution ever unless you're downloading PSX isos, burning them and selling them at a market somewhere. Even then, the biggest crime with that is being pretty sorely behind the times.

megaten

o1s1n wrote: »

If someone posts a link to an emulation site there is nothing wrong with that. It only becomes a 'you're a stinky dirty pirate' issue if you're purposely linking to rom images.

Anyone who jumps on a crusade to ruin someone's career for naively linking to emulation sources deserves a steel toe cap up the arse.

Wasn't linking to a rom exactly what he did though?