Silvercrest and its implications for the Irish Food Industry

dixiefly

Mods, if you see a better location for this then please move it.

After reading the following article from the irish Times and the almost daily news of more and more customers dropping Silvercrest then one would wonder whether there wil be medium to long term implications for this disgraceful episode.

JOANNE HUNT and ALISON HEALY

The EU commissioner for health and consumer policy has said Irish beef burgers containing horse meat have breached EU legislation.

Commissioner Tonio Borg said burgers labelled to suggest beef where other species of meat were present were “misleading and breaching EU legislation”.

Mr Borg was responding to a letter from Fine Gael MEP Mairéad McGuinness, dated January 16th, in which she sought his views on horse and pig DNA in beef burgers found in Irish supermarkets.

Labelling

Mr Borg said while there was no legal definition of the term “burger” or “beef burger”, the labelling of foods must not mislead the purchaser. In addition to rules about food naming, he said the legislation required “all substances used in the manufacture or preparation of a food and still present in the finished product” to be listed in its ingredients.

Mr Borg said the sale names of burgers or other meat preparations which suggest the presence of beef where other species of meat are present were to be considered as “misleading and breaching EU legislation”.

New rules which will come into effect from December 2014 will require that meat products containing added proteins of a different animal origin be indicated, he said.

Horse protein

“A beef burger containing horse protein would have to be designated under the name ‘beef burger with horse protein’.”

The commissioner said he felt “existing enforcement tools” allowed national enforcers to identify problems as the Irish Food Safety Authority had.The authority has said it “would be in a position to take a prosecution” where there had been mislabelling.

Meanwhile, Burger King said its investigation into burger processor Silvercrest had found trace levels of horse DNA in four burger samples recently taken from the plant. It said this product had not been sold in its restaurants.

The chain said all restaurants in Britain, Ireland and Denmark were now using meat from suppliers in Germany and Italy but it remained committed to identifying suppliers that could produce 100 per cent Irish and British beef products.


There were various statements from the department etc saying that this was not trending etc on twitter and that it did not have far reaching implications but this could be a relatively slow burning issue and should not be let fester.

I think that these companies are begining to drop Silvercrest comletely because they are now realising that Silvercrest must have deliberately purchased ingredients that were not approved. That then must mean that incorrect information must have been given in audits etc. As someone who worked in Quality in the past that would be a massive issue to these customers.

Also, there are various retailer grups and publications. This will not go away easily and I would have serious worries for the future of that plant. Also, you have to ask the question, was this type of practice just confined to one plant in the APB Group?

All in all, very worrying. Some people are blaming the Food Safety Authority for letting the information out but, once they had that information, they couldnt sit on it or Ireland's reputation as a whole would have been jepordised.

Mr Goodman has been conspicuous by his silence on this. He needs to come out and clearly state what really happened and what they are doing about it. If he doesnt the department needs to investigate transparently, it cannot just be the Britrish Parliament investigating it.

Nody

The plants (inc. the UK once) will be sold on and the company shut down; contract after contract is cancelled as the sourcing is not done as agreed (UK & IE only) and hence make it an unviable business (no one would want to buy it outright due to the name).

That's my prediction of the outcome even if it will take another six+ months to play out but as the trust is lost, the major contracts are lost and made publically why (triggering more to be lost in private), there is simply unlikely to be able to keep on going as a business.

antoobrien

This will not be an entirely bad thing - we have proved the traceability process across Europe, being able to show in fairly short order (given the amount of testing that is required) where our suppliers are. That might seem like a bad thing now, but when the dust settles I think it could end up being a positive for our food industry.

It will have some effect on processed foods, burgers being the prime example. I'd imagine there are a lot of buyers asking for traceability & doing their own testing right now to ensure the quality of their products. However live & carcass exports will not be effected.

I'd ignore Tesco dropping any supplier, given the amount of brands that have been disappearing off shelves, they appear to have a policy of trying to get rid of Irish suppliers.

mariaalice

The interesting point about this is .....the contract with Tesco stated which approved suppliers could be used for products supplies to them.

The management deliberately chose to ignore this and source form an unapproved supplier thinking they would not get caught. The stupidity of this is amazing.

godtabh

Its not just tesco that dropped them. BK dropped them today and that was a €30m contract. Aldi and Lidl are in the process of dropping them.

dixiefly

mariaalice wrote: »

The interesting point about this is .....the contract with Tesco stated which approved suppliers could be used for products supplies to them.

The management deliberately chose to ignore this and source form an unapproved supplier thinking they would not get caught. The stupidity of this is amazing.

I wonder at what level of management was the ultimate decision to source unapproved ingredients made. They say that they are replacing management in the plant but was the decision made or known at a higher level than that?

Larry Goodman and his most senior management have very serious questions to answer and they cannot fob it off with a management change in the plant. Is this an example of the culture across the Group?

antoobrien

dixiefly wrote: »

I wonder at what level of management was the ultimate decision to source unapproved ingredients made. They say that they are replacing management in the plant but was the decision made or known at a higher level than that?

I wouldn't be too surprised if individual plants have the final say in replacing ingredients, this was the case in a couple of electronics factories I worked in. As long as the corporate rules were adhered to the factory (usually product purchasing manager with input from test engineers) had the final say where a part was bought.

dixiefly

antoobrien wrote: »

I wouldn't be too surprised if individual plants have the final say in replacing ingredients, this was the case in a couple of electronics factories I worked in. As long as the corporate rules were adhered to the factory (usually product purchasing manager with input from test engineers) had the final say where a part was bought.

I worked in a company in which we had complete autonomy over the ingredients once they met corporate specs (and you needed to prove it).

I also worked in a company where the customers (especially the major ones) dictated what ingredient suppliers were approved and woe betide anyone that deviated from that. We were audited by the big customers and were also audited within Group and those audits were sometimes more stringent.

Most large companies worth their salt especially in an industry like this would have a properly functioning Quality System in which something like this simply could not happen. I havent worked in the food or meat processing industry but it really shouldnt be any different.

In a way I feel for some of the individual managers / employees who have probably received serious criticism on this and have, maybe, been working night and day to rectify things but didnt have the ultimate authority to do things right in the first place.

coolshannagh28

The future of the ABP group is at risk ,the exodus of contracts could spread to the fresh meat division as the breach of trust seems too great even for the multiples.
The ABP strategy of buying cheap in Ireland and selling cheap in the UK has blown up in their face . Other more reputable processors may step into the breach and push the Quality product of Irish farmers to its rightful place at the premium end of the market ,thereby breaking the stranglehold ABP have exercised in the Irish market for decades.

Tipp Man

coolshannagh28 wrote: »

The future of the ABP group is at risk ,the exodus of contracts could spread to the fresh meat division as the breach of trust seems too great even for the multiples.
The ABP strategy of buying cheap in Ireland and selling cheap in the UK has blown up in their face . Other more reputable processors may step into the breach and push the Quality product of Irish farmers to its rightful place at the premium end of the market ,thereby breaking the stranglehold ABP have exercised in the Irish market for decades.

I think Silvercrest only accounts for 5% of ABP turnover so it will take a fair bit for this to put a serious risk on ABP Group as a whole going under

antoobrien

dixiefly wrote: »

Most large companies worth their salt especially in an industry like this would have a properly functioning Quality System in which something like this simply could not happen.

According to the press reports all the suppliers were EU approved, including the one that supplied the contaminated product, so it's not like they were picking it up off the side of the road.

dixiefly

antoobrien wrote: »

According to the press reports all the suppliers were EU approved, including the one that supplied the contaminated product, so it's not like they were picking it up off the side of the road.

I never said that or implied that. However, these companies have rules and a fundamental part of doing business with them is that you obey those rules and meet those requirements.

Knowing what you now know, would you buy those burgers for your family?

antoobrien

dixiefly wrote: »

I never said that or implied that. However, these companies have rules and a fundamental part of doing business with them is that you obey those rules and meet those requirements.

Knowing what you now know, would you buy those burgers for your family?

Yup, it was all human edible. It just wasn't marked correctly.

After all it's not as if horsemeat isn't eaten across Europe. We & the brits seem to be the only ones with sentimental attachments to horses.

serfboard

I think we need to have a tribunal of enquiry into what has happened to the beef industry.

Oh, wait ....

Whatever investigations are carried out, one thing is for sure - Larry Goodman will remain a very rich man.

carpejugulum

Consumers should know you can't buy a good meat product at that price.
Tesco knows you can't buy a good meat product at that price.
But Silvercrest still deserve to take a hit for their dishonesty.

Mr.Micro

antoobrien wrote: »

Yup, it was all human edible. It just wasn't marked correctly.

After all it's not as if horsemeat isn't eaten across Europe. We & the brits seem to be the only ones with sentimental attachments to horses.

Larry Goodman owns some or all of these companies.....

Regardless if horsemeat is edible, it is not acceptable to sell burgers where this ingredient is not on the label. People who purchase these cheap burgers and products have every right to know what is in them, and its their children who often eat them as well so the horse meat is added to cut costs for the greedy unscrupulous companies. Ah sure its only a bit of horse, nobody will notice. Well it will hurt Goodman for while now in the pocket. Makes you wonder what else is in the products we all eat?

Farmer Pudsey

dixiefly wrote: »

I never said that or implied that. However, these companies have rules and a fundamental part of doing business with them is that you obey those rules and meet those requirements.

Knowing what you now know, would you buy those burgers for your family?

Actually I would prefer(if i did buy these frozen processed products) horse meat burgers to so called beef burgers as I would know that the meat lean meat,

carpejugulum wrote: »

Consumers should know you can't buy a good meat product at that price.
Tesco knows you can't buy a good meat product at that price.
But Silvercrest still deserve to take a hit for their dishonesty.

This is the nub of the matter the cheapest beef(cow Meat) carcases is being bought off farmers for over 3 euro/kg taking everything in to account (labour, carcase recovery rate about 60%, processing) there is no way these burgers could retail at 3 euro's/kg. Tesco know this now this is not an excuse rather a reality.

Mr.Micro wrote: »

Larry Goodman owns some or all of these companies.....

Regardless if horsemeat is edible, it is not acceptable to sell burgers where this ingredient is not on the label. People who purchase these cheap burgers and products have every right to know what is in them, and its their children who often eat them as well so the horse meat is added to cut costs for the greedy unscrupulous companies. Ah sure its only a bit of horse, nobody will notice. Well it will hurt Goodman for while now in the pocket. Makes you wonder what else is in the products we all eat?

There was no health risk to childern or any body else this is the issue with the power that huge retailers like Tesco have. Consider this Silvercrest part of a huge food company had to source product at this price range to meet Tesco's price range. Goodman has access to the cheapest beef in Europe ( Irish farmers provide this at a high quality level)yet because of the level of pressure that the tendering for these products goes through he had to source cheaper filler to provide these to Tesco's.

Now I am not an apoligist for Larry Goodmans companies rather I am pointing to the power of retailers which for all the EU talk has not been curbed.

creedp

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

Actually I would prefer(if i did buy these frozen processed products) horse meat burgers to so called beef burgers as I would know that the meat lean meat,

This is the problem though .. you're welcome to walk into Tesco any day and pick up a pack of horse burgers if that is what you want. especialy if you are happy that horse meat is better. I dont think its OK though to sell 'beef' burgers but lash a load of horse meat into them because it increases your margin. Its about traceability and transparency. Something like this doesnt help the overall image of Ireland's food industry as an exporter of high quality food products.

Farmer Pudsey

creedp wrote: »

This is the problem though .. you're welcome to walk into Tesco any day and pick up a pack of horse burgers if that is what you want. especialy if you are happy that horse meat is better. I dont think its OK though to sell 'beef' burgers but lash a load of horse meat into them because it increases your margin. Its about traceability and transparency. Something like this doesnt help the overall image of Ireland's food industry as an exporter of high quality food products.

Creep I do not think that it is Ok either however you should have quoted my total post so the contex could be seen.

Labeling is a huge issue and it is a serious issue for farmers. Resturants and fast food buisness do not have to declare there products country of origin and processed food is the same.

An Irish imported can buy chicken brests in Holland that have been imported from Thailand roll them ib bread crumbs put a bit of Garlic butter in them and now they are Chicken Kievs product of Ireland.

My point about frozen burgers is that they were a product that had to be in a certain price level the beef that went in had to have a high fat content to reduce cost it is what gave the product its beef flavour.

Head The Wall

Tesco used to sell regular burgers at a set price, then they brought in the value range at a much cheaper price. It was obvious that this new "value" burger wasn't going to be the same standard as the regular burgers. Now we know why

I wouldn't buy any Tesco value goods, they are too cheap so you know they are not going to be of food quality our full of crap.

dixiefly

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

Actually I would prefer(if i did buy these frozen processed products) horse meat burgers to so called beef burgers as I would know that the meat lean meat,



This is the nub of the matter the cheapest beef(cow Meat) carcases is being bought off farmers for over 3 euro/kg taking everything in to account (labour, carcase recovery rate about 60%, processing) there is no way these burgers could retail at 3 euro's/kg. Tesco know this now this is not an excuse rather a reality.



There was no health risk to childern or any body else this is the issue with the power that huge retailers like Tesco have. Consider this Silvercrest part of a huge food company had to source product at this price range to meet Tesco's price range. Goodman has access to the cheapest beef in Europe ( Irish farmers provide this at a high quality level)yet because of the level of pressure that the tendering for these products goes through he had to source cheaper filler to provide these to Tesco's.

Now I am not an apoligist for Larry Goodmans companies rather I am pointing to the power of retailers which for all the EU talk has not been curbed.

Sorry but whether you would or would not eat horsemeat is totally beside the point. Tescos, Aldi, Waitrose, Burger King, Co-Op are the CUSTOMERS of THE ABP Silvercrest plant. They specified that they required Irish or British beef and the quotations were based on that. So Larry Goodman and his ABP management should have quoted based on the best price that they could supply the product requested.

The implication of your post is that Tescos give a price and then ABP find whatever other meats or off cuts that it takes to supply the product at the price and make a profit. I worked in technical developments and quality in industry and there were times in which we refused business if we couldn't supply to the specification at the price required. We certainly didnt change the specifications or raw materials. Maybe that is why we were one of the most successful businesses in our industry worldwide.

Would you like if your builder said he could build your house at the price you said was your maximum but then proceeded to change key specifications without your knowledge and then circumvent your inspections so that you wouldn't find out?

Mr.Micro

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

Act


This is the nub of the matter the cheapest beef(cow Meat) carcases is being bought off farmers for over 3 euro/kg taking everything in to account (labour, carcase recovery rate about 60%, processing) there is no way these burgers could retail at 3 euro's/kg. Tesco know this now this is not an excuse rather a reality.



There was no health risk to childern or any body else this is the issue with the power that huge retailers like Tesco have. Consider this Silvercrest part of a huge food company had to source product at this price range to meet Tesco's price range. Goodman has access to the cheapest beef in Europe ( Irish farmers provide this at a high quality level)yet because of the level of pressure that the tendering for these products goes through he had to source cheaper filler to provide these to Tesco's.

Now I am not an apoligist for Larry Goodmans companies rather I am pointing to the power of retailers which for all the EU talk has not been curbed.

There is no excuse whatsever to add horsemeat to burgers regardless of the cost. Poor consumers should have all the rights of the better off ones.

The whole traceability of the meat used is vital in this day and age. BSE is still a problem in beef, there are other diseases in other animals and using untraceable meat is criminal IMO, such meat could have been disease ridden, condemned or contaminated. By allowing such a practice it leaves the industry wide open to get rid of all that waste, to be added to meat products like a dripping tap. I hope the message gets through to the "ah sure" attitude, that such practices will not be accepted and the industry has to adhere to the regulations. One contaminated product in this type of food processing can affect thousands of individuals. Goodman is no stranger to controversy.

creedp

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

Creep I do not think that it is Ok either however you should have quoted my total post so the contex could be seen.

Labeling is a huge issue and it is a serious issue for farmers. Resturants and fast food buisness do not have to declare there products country of origin and processed food is the same.

An Irish imported can buy chicken brests in Holland that have been imported from Thailand roll them ib bread crumbs put a bit of Garlic butter in them and now they are Chicken Kievs product of Ireland.

My point about frozen burgers is that they were a product that had to be in a certain price level the beef that went in had to have a high fat content to reduce cost it is what gave the product its beef flavour.

I only quoted that part of your post because I was referring to the fact that as an individual a person is entitled to have their own preferences, if that be horse meat so be it. The problem here is that the burgers were sold as beef burgers and no where was horse mentioned. This is not acceptable irrespective of the price point of the product. I think a someone would be very nieve to think that own label value beef burgers contain the same quality of meat as premium brand beef burgers but they should not have worry about whether the meat content is anything other than beef.

This issue is simply bad for the Irish food industry full stop. I was talking to a couple of farmers who are in the pedigree beef business and they are furious that Goodman is once again involved in bad publicity for the Irish beef industry. One has written to Coveney and demanded that Goodman be severely sanctioned for what has happenned .. we'll see how that goes.

Farmer Pudsey

dixiefly wrote: »

Sorry but whether you would or would not eat horsemeat is totally beside the point. Tescos, Aldi, Waitrose, Burger King, Co-Op are the CUSTOMERS of THE ABP Silvercrest plant. They specified that they required Irish or British beef and the quotations were based on that. So Larry Goodman and his ABP management should have quoted based on the best price that they could supply the product requested.

The implication of your post is that Tescos give a price and then ABP find whatever other meats or off cuts that it takes to supply the product at the price and make a profit. I worked in technical developments and quality in industry and there were times in which we refused business if we couldn't supply to the specification at the price required. We certainly didnt change the specifications or raw materials. Maybe that is why we were one of the most successful businesses in our industry worldwide.

Would you like if your builder said he could build your house at the price you said was your maximum but then proceeded to change key specifications without your knowledge and then circumvent your inspections so that you wouldn't find out?

Well I be very supisious if the builder quoted a price for the house that was less than the price of the materials and my maximum would not be less than the price of the same materials.

Mr.Micro wrote: »

There is no excuse whatsever to add horsemeat to burgers regardless of the cost. Poor consumers should have all the rights of the better off ones.

The whole traceability of the meat used is vital in this day and age. BSE is still a problem in beef, there are other diseases in other animals and using untraceable meat is criminal IMO, such meat could have been disease ridden, condemned or contaminated. By allowing such a practice it leaves the industry wide open to get rid of all that waste, to be added to meat products like a dripping tap. I hope the message gets through to the "ah sure" attitude, that such practices will not be accepted and the industry has to adhere to the regulations. One contaminated product in this type of food processing can affect thousands of individuals. Goodman is no stranger to controversy.

If some contributors read my post they would see that I do not condone what was done rather I pointed out that the horse meat was probally less harmfull than the other ingredients that went into the burgers. When I mean harmful I am talking about the fat content. This is an issue accross all prcessed foods.
In the food industry fat, grizzle, rind is described as meat content. When you see 75% meat conten on sausages or burgers you can be sure it is not prime cut. How can a processor produce a kilo of burgers at a cheaper retail price (often 40-50%) than the cheapest retail prive of unprocessed meat.
This is what is causing farmers to have to produce food at below the cost of production. In reality Silvercrest was let down by its supplier, a protein filler can be bean based such as soya. This plant that it was sourced from was EU approved it is not like he was importing it from Brazil.

Bringing up BSE is a red herring the risk if any is now miniscule.

creedp wrote: »

I only quoted that part of your post because I was referring to the fact that as an individual a person is entitled to have their own preferences, if that be horse meat so be it. The problem here is that the burgers were sold as beef burgers and no where was horse mentioned. This is not acceptable irrespective of the price point of the product. I think a someone would be very nieve to think that own label value beef burgers contain the same quality of meat as premium brand beef burgers but they should not have worry about whether the meat content is anything other than beef.

This issue is simply bad for the Irish food industry full stop. I was talking to a couple of farmers who are in the pedigree beef business and they are furious that Goodman is once again involved in bad publicity for the Irish beef industry. One has written to Coveney and demanded that Goodman be severely sanctioned for what has happenned .. we'll see how that goes.

Minister Coveney has I believe stated that there will be no prosecution in Ireland re the issue. Yes it is a disaster and any cost associated will be bourne by the primary producer the farmer. This is not the first or second time this has happened. BSE was caused by the relaxation in the treatment of bone meal by a consertive British government. The dioxin scare was caused by the illegal use of transformer oil as a drying material. At the end of the day it is the farmer that will suffer.

Parsandeman

godtabh wrote: »

Its not just tesco that dropped them. BK dropped them today and that was a €30m contract. Aldi and Lidl are in the process of dropping them.

If aldi and lidl drop them that's pretty bad. Imagine the quality of their produce as it is. Can you imagine the dirt that goes into making an aldi burger?

Anyhow they should drop them. Deceitful b@stards

Sponge Bob

Parsandeman wrote: »

Can you imagine the dirt that goes into making an aldi burger?

Fraid so seeing as Silvercrest made all the Aldi burgers. I'd shudder to think of the Tesco specification though

Farmer Pudsey

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Fraid so seeing as Silvercrest made all the Aldi burgers. I'd shudder to think of the Tesco specification though

I prefer ALDI you do not know what went into the tesco value burgers :cool: then again we do.

Alot of people think that if you go into a supermarket in a nice locality air conditioning comfartable heat level, all the right type of shelving and freezers that this company has your best intrest at hand.

In reality ALDI ans LIDL are honest collect a couple of boxes and we will not charge you for a bag

Cookie_Monster

creedp wrote: »

This is the problem though .. you're welcome to walk into Tesco any day and pick up a pack of horse burgers if that is what you want. especialy if you are happy that horse meat is better. I dont think its OK though to sell 'beef' burgers but lash a load of horse meat into them because it increases your margin. Its about traceability and transparency. Something like this doesnt help the overall image of Ireland's food industry as an exporter of high quality food products.

but it's ok to sell "beef" burgers that are only 60-70% beef and the rest is just cereals and other crappy fillers which is what they do anyway. yet it's still perfectly fine to call them beef burger on the front and only have to disclose the actual % on the back?

i'm not sure why this is such a big scandal, it's just horse instead of cereal or soy or other veg or grain, is it really just because its meat and not veg thats a problem, really?

Mr.Micro

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

If some contributors read my post they would see that I do not condone what was done rather I pointed out that the horse meat was probally less harmfull than the other ingredients that went into the burgers. When I mean harmful I am talking about the fat content. This is an issue accross all prcessed foods.
In the food industry fat, grizzle, rind is described as meat content. When you see 75% meat conten on sausages or burgers you can be sure it is not prime cut. How can a processor produce a kilo of burgers at a cheaper retail price (often 40-50%) than the cheapest retail prive of unprocessed meat.
This is what is causing farmers to have to produce food at below the cost of production. In reality Silvercrest was let down by its supplier, a protein filler can be bean based such as soya. This plant that it was sourced from was EU approved it is not like he was importing it from Brazil.

Bringing up BSE is a red herring the risk if any is now miniscule.

So the traceability factor is compromised by using unsolicited fillers and you think that BSE, or other similar diseases in other animals is miniscule risk and a red herring? That is an extremely naive and simplistic view IMO. You might as well not have any system of traceability then, if you are prepared to allow or compromise the system using other untraceable meat fillers. Poland is denying the blame as far as I know. It was such breaches of regulation, or deregulation that allowed BSE to proliferate in the past, again to maximize profits and get rid of rubbish as animal feed. Silvercrest were supposed to only use Irish or British beef and clearly did not.

Meat in Tesco burgers which was found to contain horse DNA did not come from a list of approved suppliers, the supermarket also admitted today.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2270559/Contaminated-burgers-Poland-UK-supermarkets-contained-horse-beef-offcuts-year.html#axzz2JqhRmWiz

Farmer Pudsey

Mr.Micro wrote: »

So the traceability factor is compromised by using unsolicited fillers and you think that BSE, or other similar diseases in other animals is miniscule risk and a red herring? That is an extremely naive and simplistic view IMO. You might as well not have any system of traceability then, if you are prepared to allow or compromise the system using other untraceable meat fillers. Poland is denying the blame as far as I know. It was such breaches of regulation, or deregulation that allowed BSE to proliferate in the past, again to maximize profits and get rid of rubbish as animal feed. Silvercrest were supposed to only use Irish or British beef and clearly did not.

Yes Silvercrest were supposed to use Irish or British beef but in processed food what is describe as beef is questionable. Tesco's wanted a product at a price ( now I am not condoning what was done) but reality tells us that that product could not be supplied at that price. Tesco Executives must have known that the question is would they have given these burgers to there childern when they understood it to be a beef product. It is the say with loads of other products the reality is that a cheap food policy will lead to shortcuts.

Now you association of BSE with this is ridiclous it shows how little you understand the reasons for BSE. It was a decision of a British government to allow Bone meal to be cooked to around 40 degrees centigrade rather than 75 degrees that lead to the bone meal problem it was not tracebility or anything else.

Also Poland is an EU country there is a free trade agreement it is reasonable to expect that it will enforce EU regulations. The other issue is that there was no health risk attached to the burgers. Before you bring up drugs used in horses it seems from theFSAI that the horse meat proved clear of this.

GCU Flexible Demeanour

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

but it's ok to sell "beef" burgers that are only 60-70% beef and the rest is just cereals and other crappy fillers which is what they do anyway. yet it's still perfectly fine to call them beef burger on the front and only have to disclose the actual % on the back?

i'm not sure why this is such a big scandal, it's just horse instead of cereal or soy or other veg or grain, is it really just because its meat and not veg thats a problem, really?

You may be right - potentially, it't not an issue if its really only a labelling concern.

However, the elements that cause concern seem to include material being sourced from suppliers that weren't approved by the companies - which, incidently, suggests that Tesco/Aldi/BK contracts anticipate this very issue.

I think side issues include a veil being lifted on statements about our food industry having a low import content. They need to go to Poland for this filler?

For me, I find myself wondering about the value of this "traceability" business. I've always worked on the basis that my contract is with the shop I've bought the food from. If the product they sell me is faulty, I've no intrinsic interest in who they got it from. And that's all traceability seems to be delivering here. The Irish meat suppliers seriously seem to think that an acceptable line is "oh that's just the stuff we got from Poland", as if that passes the blame on in some way. If they used the stuff, then its part of their product that they have to stand over.

This blasé attitude is the issue, and the feature that gives this story legs. Because now every Irish-sourced meat product in every supermarket will be viewed with suspicion, precisely because of the lack of responsibility for the finished product they deliver.

Farmer Pudsey

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

You may be right - potentially, it't not an issue if its really only a labelling concern.

However, the elements that cause concern seem to include material being sourced from suppliers that weren't approved by the companies - which, incidently, suggests that Tesco/Aldi/BK contracts anticipate this very issue.

I think side issues include a veil being lifted on statements about our food industry having a low import content. They need to go to Poland for this filler?

For me, I find myself wondering about the value of this "traceability" business. I've always worked on the basis that my contract is with the shop I've bought the food from. If the product they sell me is faulty, I've no intrinsic interest in who they got it from. And that's all traceability seems to be delivering here. The Irish meat suppliers seriously seem to think that an acceptable line is "oh that's just the stuff we got from Poland", as if that passes the blame on in some way. If they used the stuff, then its part of their product that they have to stand over.

This blasé attitude is the issue, and the feature that gives this story legs. Because now every Irish-sourced meat product in every supermarket will be viewed with suspicion, precisely because of the lack of responsibility for the finished product they deliver.

It all comes down to price. Yes super markets have sales. Two to three weeks before christmass pork chops were very cheap the reason the is that all the brine machine were making Hams and the result was that back pork was all sold as chops. However when week in week out you see a product in this case burgers at a very cheap price you have to question what they are made of.

If I buy a pound of mince some onion egg and flour how much will these burgers cost. If a supermarket or a butcher makes fresh burgers at present the least they will cost is 50 cent each now tesco were selling value burgers for a fraction of this. Who is kidding who. Even if they were 100% beef you would have to question there value.

This story will run another bit and as tabloids start testing burgers and other processed foods in other countries pies sauages and pizzas there may be other expose.

Mcdonalds actually supply the filler to be used in there burgers and the only ingrdent added into the mix is beef as they have been burned before. It is amazing that Burger King got caught like this however it has to be stated that there product was more than likly a higher spec burger than Tesco value burger. This is often the issue with companies accomdating a clientsprice plan. Tesco's were buying other burgers from Silvercrest and other food companies they had to be aware of the different prices for the different burgers. There buyers knew full well that it was not steak mince that went into the burgers. All Tesco wanted was a product that was way below an Aldi or LIDL price.

GCU Flexible Demeanour

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

There buyers knew full well that it was not steak mince that went into the burgers. All Tesco wanted was a product that was way below an Aldi or LIDL price.

In fairness, I'm sure most customers would expect that the burgers were not steak mince, unless they were advertised as being such. But it is reasonable for a customer to expect that a beef burger is using some bit of a cow. My picture of cheap burgers was that it used meat that would not normally appear in your butchers - meat recovered from heads, and the like.

I think you're right that the story will go on for a bit. The business of products including pork content being presented as Halal has to spread wider.

creedp

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

but it's ok to sell "beef" burgers that are only 60-70% beef and the rest is just cereals and other crappy fillers which is what they do anyway. yet it's still perfectly fine to call them beef burger on the front and only have to disclose the actual % on the back?

i'm not sure why this is such a big scandal, it's just horse instead of cereal or soy or other veg or grain, is it really just because its meat and not veg thats a problem, really?

Exactly, is horse DNA/meat disclosed anywhere on the packaging? The big problem here is preception; we market Irish produce as a high quality product and we talk about traceability to support that perception. However, I would think that perception has taken a bit of a battering.

serfboard

creedp wrote: »

The big problem here is preception; we market Irish produce as a high quality product and we talk about traceability to support that perception. However, I would think that perception has taken a bit of a battering.

Agree with this. With all that's gone wrong with this country, one of the few shining lights should be our agriculture and food industry. It represents a genuine growing market and for the most part is Irish owned, and so not exporting profits overseas.

Instead, we're fúcking it up - between horse meat in "100% beef" burgers and Halal Pork, and God knows what else is going on.

RATM

Just another Irish cock up.

For all the governments mutterings about Ireland being a 'world-class food producer', the continious promotion by Bord Bia of Irish food exports, and the continual lauding of Irish food products both by media and tv chefs what do the recent facts about actions in the Irish food industry say ?

2007- Foot and mouth brought into the state by a farmer illegally moving sheep despite a ban on doing so
2008- Irish pork taken off shelves due to contamination scare
2012/3 Horsemeat found in Irish burgers

Hardly what I would call the attributes of a 'world class food producer' as our government claims in its constant self promotion. It more comes across to me that there are cowboys operating at many levels in the food industry and for years the government and authorities have turned a blind eye with minimal fines and no custodial sentences for those who put the industry as a whole in jeopardy.

Doesn't look like anything is going to change with the horse meat scandal, except for a few of Goodman's henchmen getting 'moved around'. Nothing to see here and its upwards and onwards. Till the next scandal of course. And so it goes on and on for the Irish food industry,

Mr.Micro

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

Now you association of BSE with this is ridiclous it shows how little you understand the reasons for BSE. It was a decision of a British government to allow Bone meal to be cooked to around 40 degrees centigrade rather than 75 degrees that lead to the bone meal problem it was not tracebility or anything else.

Also Poland is an EU country there is a free trade agreement it is reasonable to expect that it will enforce EU regulations. The other issue is that there was no health risk attached to the burgers. Before you bring up drugs used in horses it seems from theFSAI that the horse meat proved clear of this.

I very well understand about BSE, and I was using BSE as an example where diseases can cross the species. Other diseases exist in other animals that could do the same, and using meat from them poses a big risk to human health. The traceability aspect is that any beef can be traced back to source if there is a problem of it as a causative agent of disease down the consumer line. Your post suggests one of the causative reasons for BSE becoming established, but when it is a disease in cattle then its traceability is highly significant. You perhaps are the one who knows little about BSE and other diseases and the massive implications they can have.The prions that it produces in the infected animals are virtually indestructible.

As I have said in other posts and regardless of the costs that Tesco put on the producers for a cheap burger it is never acceptable to use unsolicited sources of meat that are untraceable and uncertified.

Tests find ingredient at Monaghan food company Rangeland Foods was 75% horse meat

Its criminal IMO and this sort of disgusting practice has probably been going on for years and years.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/0204/366204-rangeland-foods-beef/

dixiefly

These latest findings are very worrying for the industry.

Rangeland Foods are probably correct in saying that they haven't used the ingredients in question but this may well have been the first time that this raw material was ever tested so it is probably fair to assume that previous raw materials from the same supplier contained horsemeat.

The use of intermediate traders should be of concern imo but I am not that familiar with the industry so perhaps it is an acceptable practice if proper procedures, paper trails, audits are employed.

It is of concern that all the good work and care conducted by the farmer is jepordised by use of these ingredients.

Mr.Micro

dixiefly wrote: »

These latest findings are very worrying for the industry.

Rangeland Foods are probably correct in saying that they haven't used the ingredients in question but this may well have been the first time that this raw material was ever tested so it is probably fair to assume that previous raw materials from the same supplier contained horsemeat.

The use of intermediate traders should be of concern imo but I am not that familiar with the industry so perhaps it is an acceptable practice if proper procedures, paper trails, audits are employed.

It is of concern that all the good work and care conducted by the farmer is jepordised by use of these ingredients.

Indeed. So it looks like the excuse that the likes of Tesco and other supermarkets putting pressure on the producers to produce a cheap burger for a small price, hence the meat fillers, does not wash, as this Rangeland outfit makes burgers for the burger businesses in Ireland. My point being that it is all the burgers not just the cheap ones. Burger eaters have been eating horse for years probably and other meats as well, maybe pork, kangeroo and other offcuts, all dressed as 100% beef and charged accordingly. The Government needs to get its act together or our food reputation will be destroyed for good.

RATM

Mr.Micro wrote: »

Indeed. So it looks like the excuse that the likes of Tesco and other supermarkets putting pressure on the producers to produce a cheap burger for a small price, hence the meat fillers, does not wash, as this Rangeland outfit makes burgers for the burger businesses in Ireland. My point being that it is all the burgers not just the cheap ones. Burger eaters have been eating horse for years probably and other meats as well, maybe pork, kangeroo and other offcuts, all dressed as 100% beef and charged accordingly. The Government needs to get its act together or our food reputation will be destroyed for good.

That exact line reminds of Naomi Klein's 'Fast Food Nation' written largely about McDonalds in the US. One chapter is entitled 'There Is Pig **** in the Burgers' which relays a story of beef producers in the US being squeezed so much for profits by McDonalds that they took to feeding the cows pig **** to save on money.

Now I'm not exonerating beef producers here or anything. But Klein did make a good point that the large multiples like McDonalds and Burger King have such huge purchasing power that over time it turns out that their burger suppliers supply to them and them alone. When this happens the company being supplied know that their supplier is 100% reliant on them for business and thus begins squeezing their profits.

It's easy to see how the insatiable appetite for profits eventually puts businesses under pressure and they then decide to engage in dodgy practices which leads to humans eating horse meat.

This latest discovery of 75% horse DNA in burgers is very worrying. Makes you wonder how many years this scam has being going on.

Another interesting aspect of all this is the potential for civil actions against supermarkets from the publin. Back in the day 99% of people would have thrown away their receipts and could no longer prove that they bought value beef burgers in Tesco. But nowadays Tesco have their Club Card loyalty ystem. which records all purchases so they can use the data to build up a solid picture of each consumers likes/dislikes to then target promotions and offers at them.

It seems to me that someone who has bought value burgers from Tesco on a regular basis can easily submit a Freedom of Information request to Tesco to request their purchase history. After that it is a matter of going to court and arguing their case. If the first person wins and a compensation award of €2k or €3k is handed down then the floodgates could really open on this case and Tesco will be needing to rustle down into their deep pockets.

creedp

RATM wrote: »

It seems to me that someone who has bought value burgers from Tesco on a regular basis can easily submit a Freedom of Information request to Tesco to request their purchase history. After that it is a matter of going to court and arguing their case. If the first person wins and a compensation award of €2k or €3k is handed down then the floodgates could really open on this case and Tesco will be needing to rustle down into their deep pockets.

Dont know anyting about the law (other than how easy it is to break it!) but would these customers not have to prove that their burgers actually contained horse meat/DNA to qualify for compensation?

fred252

Can someone explain to me what "75 % horse DNA" is supposed to mean? Does that mean that 75 % of the sample in 100 % horse DNA i.e. the sample is 75 % horse meat / trimmings? A DNA molecule is either horse or it isn't.

Why don't the media just say 75 % horse meat instead of constantly referring to DNA?

Mr.Micro

fred252 wrote: »

Can someone explain to me what "75 % horse DNA" is supposed to mean? Does that mean that 75 % of the sample in 100 % horse DNA i.e. the sample is 75 % horse meat / trimmings? A DNA molecule is either horse or it isn't.

Why don't the media just say 75 % horse meat instead of constantly referring to DNA?

What it means is that of all the DNA in the burger it is 75% horse and does not even mean that the burger was 75% horse as other materials could be in the burger as well. For all intents and purposes though the actual meat content is 75% horse.

Mr.Micro

RATM wrote: »

That exact line reminds of Naomi Klein's 'Fast Food Nation' written largely about McDonalds in the US. One chapter is entitled 'There Is Pig **** in the Burgers' which relays a story of beef producers in the US being squeezed so much for profits by McDonalds that they took to feeding the cows pig **** to save on money.

Now I'm not exonerating beef producers here or anything. But Klein did make a good point that the large multiples like McDonalds and Burger King have such huge purchasing power that over time it turns out that their burger suppliers supply to them and them alone. When this happens the company being supplied know that their supplier is 100% reliant on them for business and thus begins squeezing their profits.

It's easy to see how the insatiable appetite for profits eventually puts businesses under pressure and they then decide to engage in dodgy practices which leads to humans eating horse meat.

This latest discovery of 75% horse DNA in burgers is very worrying. Makes you wonder how many years this scam has being going on.

Another interesting aspect of all this is the potential for civil actions against supermarkets from the publin. Back in the day 99% of people would have thrown away their receipts and could no longer prove that they bought value beef burgers in Tesco. But nowadays Tesco have their Club Card loyalty ystem. which records all purchases so they can use the data to build up a solid picture of each consumers likes/dislikes to then target promotions and offers at them.

It seems to me that someone who has bought value burgers from Tesco on a regular basis can easily submit a Freedom of Information request to Tesco to request their purchase history. After that it is a matter of going to court and arguing their case. If the first person wins and a compensation award of €2k or €3k is handed down then the floodgates could really open on this case and Tesco will be needing to rustle down into their deep pockets.

Its not just Tesco in this case, the other supermarkets in Ireland as well. It seems that Tesco is being singled out for some reason. The latest outfit Rangeland Foods supply to the burger business so maybe people should be going to all the burger sellers as well such as Supermac, BK, McDonalds and all the little takeaway places and the restaurants. I wonder have the FSA tested for anything else other than pork and horse DNA? Nothing would surprise me as to what could be in a burger.... horse, goat, pork, monkey even. Anything for a profit and the consumer is just the dope.

fred252

Mr.Micro wrote: »

What it means is that of all the DNA in the burger it is 75% horse and does not even mean that the burger was 75% horse as other materials could be in the burger as well. For all intents and purposes though the actual meat content is 75% horse.

In that case why mention DNA. Not sure why the media have chosen this verbiage. It might be a bit confusing for Joe Public.

Mr.Micro

fred252 wrote: »

In that case why mention DNA. Not sure why the media have chosen this verbiage. It might be a bit confusing for Joe Public.

Its because the horse content is only identified by its DNA as horse, hence the use of the term horse DNA. Who knows what part(s) of the horse was/were used.

fred252

Mr.Micro wrote: »

Its because the horse content is only identified by its DNA as horse, hence the use of the term horse DNA. Who knows what part(s) of the horse was/were used.

Yes they use DNA to identify it but once identified just say 75 % horse meat. Maybe its just me but I find it weird that its continually being described as horse DNA as opposed to horse meat.

Mr.Micro

fred252 wrote: »

Yes they use DNA to identify it but once identified just say 75 % horse meat. Maybe its just me but I find it weird that its continually being described as horse DNA as opposed to horse meat.

They have to say that as its DNA that they found, and will not extrapolate further as to the probability of it being horse meat as they cannot be sure its meat perhaps, as it could be a non meat part of the horse? I am sure its for the legal niceties. You and I would just say in all probability 75% horse.

RATM

creedp wrote: »

Dont know anyting about the law (other than how easy it is to break it!) but would these customers not have to prove that their burgers actually contained horse meat/DNA to qualify for compensation?

I wouldn't be an expert on law myself but you could also try to put the burden of proof on the supermarkets- i.e. we know that there was horsemeat in some of the burgers but as they all been sold they don't know exactly which ones. If a consumer can prove they bought value burgers at regular intervals then their barrister could argue that there is a reasonable chance that they ate them.

AFAIR it was the same way for the army deafness cases back in the 1990's- the State couldn't prove that the soldiers hadn't suffered hearing damage. What could be proved however was that the State didn't provide appropriate safety equipment. Not the exact same case I know but you can see some parallels- the burden of proof as to whether the soldiers had ear problems lay with the State, not with the soldiers.

goat2

i am disgusted that these people allowed this to happen,
coming from a farming background, i know how hard it is to take care of our beef supply, inspections, paper work, paper work, and more paper work, all animals tagged and have to be accounted for,
why were these factories not being treated the same and made accountable for what they sent out, they have no respect for their customers, the end users

ardmacha

After that it is a matter of going to court and arguing their case. If the first person wins and a compensation award of €2k or €3k is handed down then the floodgates could really open on this case and Tesco will be needing to rustle down into their deep pockets

The burgers were as fit for consumption as value burgers can be, but they were mislabelled. Not a huge case for compensation I would have thought.

What would be appropriate if Tesco identified purchasers of these burgers in the last 6 months and gave them €50/€100 of vouchers as a gesture of good will.