Silvercrest and its implications for the Irish Food Industry

goat2

we now know of this horsemeat in the burgers,
but will make people now question other processed foods,
no good looking at ingredient lables,
they did not make people aware they were eating horse,
how can we beleive that food is, wat it says in the tin.

RATM

ardmacha wrote: »

The burgers were as fit for consumption as value burgers can be, but they were mislabelled. Not a huge case for compensation I would have thought.

What would be appropriate if Tesco identified purchasers of these burgers in the last 6 months and gave them €50/€100 of vouchers as a gesture of good will.

It's hard to know what compensation such a court case would pay out as I don't think we have precedent in an Irish court. However if Tesco did offer €100 in vouchers in compensation then people would be well advised not to accept it as doing so could be the end of any claim they have

It is hard to know what a compensation award to a claim could be but my guess is at least €1000 and possibly double that What people would be claiming is that they are culturally against the consumption of horsemeat, something that is widely accepted in Ireland and the UK and that the supermarkets fed them horsemeat without their knowledge.

It is no different to a Muslim being secretly fed pork- this is against their cultural (and religious) traditions in the same way not eating horse meat is against ours. Interesting enough Muslims in the UK got pulled into this sorry mess over the weekend with the revelation that there was pork DNA found in some halal products so we can be almost certain we'll be seeing civil actions in the UK courts, if not here as well

sheeper

Even if this disaster is sorted out should factory's be allowed to continue processing meat ?
If a farmer was found to be feeding banned substance to animals they would do jail so what should the penalty be for feeding horse to people be

goat2

on the news just now,
the factory did not know it was horse meat that it was using. i guess because it looks like beef, but even at that if it were beef, why did they not use irish beef along with english produce, since one of the companies (i think burgerking ) had insisted that they only use english and irish produce,
by bringing it in from another means it had broken a promise it had made to them

Mr.Micro

goat2 wrote: »

on the news just now,
the factory did not know it was horse meat that it was using. i guess because it looks like beef, but even at that if it were beef, why did they not use irish beef along with english produce, since one of the companies (i think burgerking ) had insisted that they only use english and irish produce,
by bringing it in from another means it had broken a promise it had made to them

So the factory was buying this stuff of dubious origin by the tonne no doubt, and never asked what it was, or paperwork to state what it was that they were putting into the products? If that is true then they should be shut down immediately for negligence and outright stupidity. We might live in a green country but we are not that green. Every chancer always pleads ignorance, not that I believe a word of it myself.

sheeper

It's not really a good enough excuse
If you were caught with a banned substance in animal feed say meat and bone meal or growth hormones can you say "oops I didn't know it was there" if you ask me the factories should be closed !! And the owner banned from any involvment in the food industry
Could you imagine if your local butcher was found with horse in the cold room could he say he did nt know !!!!

Mr.Micro

ardmacha wrote: »

The burgers were as fit for consumption as value burgers can be, but they were mislabelled. Not a huge case for compensation I would have thought.

What would be appropriate if Tesco identified purchasers of these burgers in the last 6 months and gave them €50/€100 of vouchers as a gesture of good will.

As I posted earlier its not just Tesco, but also the other retailers as well and burgers restaurants. If people are going to take issue it should be all the vendors and the producers. Not that they would get far IMO as they would have to prove loss, damage and would cost an enormous sum to maybe get €50 in compensation. Caveat emptor. Buyer beware.

goat2

it will be interesting to find out the real story,

i do hope that our own will not suffer,

good and bad will come from it,

the good being, customers will ask where their food came from and supporting our small local butcher,

goat2

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/mcadam-foods-identifies-itself-as-dealer-at-centre-of-horsemeat-controversy-583762.html
this has just come up now.

Cookie_Monster

fred252 wrote: »

In that case why mention DNA. Not sure why the media have chosen this verbiage. It might be a bit confusing for Joe Public.

because they can use bigger figures so it sounds worse. 75% sounds worse but if the burger is only 70% meat anyway and 75% of that is horse then only 52.5% of the burger is horse, doesn't sound quite as bad.

Also makes it sound like it's only meat in the burgers and requires no mention of the other ingredients that make up a sizeable percentage of cheaper burgers.

Greenmachine

I see Polish official are denying the results of the Irish Dna test. How we should react is place an embargo on polish meat products till this has been sorted. What will actually happen is SFA.

rodento

Not just an irish issue and getting quite scary

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2275166/Findus-admits-frozen-lasagne-99-horsemeat-dont-know-long-shelves.html?ito=feeds-newsxml#axzz2KFBrEWTU

Findus has tonight admitted that it has been selling packs of its popular frozen lasagne that were 99 per cent horsemeat.

The news is the first time that it has been confirmed that horsemeat contamination of products sold in the UK has spread beyond beef burgers.

There are concerns that the horse meat used in the lasagne contained the drug bute, which is a known human health risk.
Findus was today unable to say how long horsemeat has been used in its products.

goat2

but has it been proven yet that it came from poland, if they are innocent they have a right to fight their case,
i dont think that there is a clear cut answer yet as to the source of the horsemeat.

Mr.Micro

rodento wrote: »

Not just an irish issue and getting quite scary

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2275166/Findus-admits-frozen-lasagne-99-horsemeat-dont-know-long-shelves.html?ito=feeds-newsxml#axzz2KFBrEWTU

Findus has tonight admitted that it has been selling packs of its popular frozen lasagne that were 99 per cent horsemeat.

The news is the first time that it has been confirmed that horsemeat contamination of products sold in the UK has spread beyond beef burgers.

There are concerns that the horse meat used in the lasagne contained the drug bute, which is a known human health risk.
Findus was today unable to say how long horsemeat has been used in its products.

I for one do not believe for one minute that it was contamination of burgers, but deliberate all along by the food processors. Blaming Poland is just a ruse to pretend they knew nothing about it. So much for the Bord Bia guarantee and all that traceability claim...... not worth the paper the are written on. Disgusting.

Sponge Bob

Findus, a UK purveyor of processed tat, sourced the product found to be 100% Horsemeat labelled as Beef from a French company. Luckily this is now an EU wide problem and Coveney as chairman of the EU food ministers should be able to organise an EU wide investigation and kick this to touch fairly rapidly.

Mr.Micro

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Findus, a UK purveyor of processed tat, sourced the product found to be 100% Horsemeat labelled as Beef from a French company. Luckily this is now an EU wide problem and Coveney as chairman of the EU food ministers should be able to organise an EU wide investigation and kick this to touch fairly rapidly.

Round steak mince on special in the local supermarket today....... €5 for 0.908 kg. Probably cannot trust any meats now without a full analysis lol. So much for all the regulations and the EU directives and protecting the consumer. What have the so called food watchdogs being doing all these years but taking money from the public purse to sit in their offices.

creedp

Mr.Micro wrote: »

Round steak mince on special in the local supermarket today....... €5 for 0.908 kg. Probably cannot trust any meats now without a full analysis lol. So much for all the regulations and the EU directives and protecting the consumer. What have the so called food watchdogs being doing all these years but taking money from the public purse to sit in their offices.

Must go out and snap up a few bargains to stock up freezer while the negative publicity lasts!

AlmightyCushion

creedp wrote: »

Must go out and snap up a few bargains to stock up freezer while the negative publicity lasts!

It'd be cheaper to just kill a few donkeys, meat will probably be better too.

creedp

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

It'd be cheaper to just kill a few donkeys, meat will probably be better too.

Ah its easier to pick up the package in the supermarket!

Icepick

The original report also said 'equine' DNA. So it was donkey or zebra for all we know.

goat2

we should be glad that it was found out,
if they had not been caught out, this thing could be happening for yrs to come,

also there will be more scrutiny from here on out, we hope.

i beleive burgerking has dropped its suppliers, so they will be looking to other people who can and will do what it says on the contract,

it will mean our meat will be safer than it ever has been,

i am disgusted with the people who thought they could get away with it, and i do hope every one realise that these people had no respect for the consumer, they forgot that it was the consumer who kept them in business.

remember some time ago on sky news, it reported on a place where horses were treated very badly before thely were killed in some slaughter house

Sponge Bob

Uk Food safety now blaming 'international criminal' types. Thankfully the longer it goes on the more we look like victims not perpretators. Not that I consider Larry Goodman a victim of any sort but we can start the bounceback next week announcing ourselves as as the first country to cleanse itself of Horsemeat etc.

goat2

An MP claimed today that Findus's beef lasagne may have been contaminated with horsemeat since last summer.

that was not contamination of the lasagne, when the lasagne was made of 100% horsemeat,

but like you said that it is good news for us, i think we will come bouncing back, but i dont think that the company in monaghan had enough scrutiny, or followed proper care,
i am hoping that another company gets the contract for burgers, like a new broom, clean sweep.

Mr.Micro

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Uk Food safety now blaming 'international criminal' types. Thankfully the longer it goes on the more we look like victims not perpretators. Not that I consider Larry Goodman a victim of any sort but we can start the bounceback next week announcing ourselves as as the first country to cleanse itself of Horsemeat etc.

The news next week will be that a burger has been found to be contaminated with beef. The producers will deny all knowledge as they do not have beef on the premises and do ot know how it got in there.

Sponge Bob

On C4 news just there, "Ireland is a Sort of Airport for Meat"....'could be from Indonesia'. That comment from an Irishman and well known Uk foodie. Oh Er!!

woodoo

And on BBC Newsnight one of the two hairy bikers was saying filler for burgers can come from anywhere.. the likes of Poland and Ireland he said. Insinuating that Ireland's standards aren't up to scratch.

woodoo

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Uk Food safety now blaming 'international criminal' types. Thankfully the longer it goes on the more we look like victims not perpretators. Not that I consider Larry Goodman a victim of any sort but we can start the bounceback next week announcing ourselves as as the first country to cleanse itself of Horsemeat etc.

This whole saga will spark a revolution on food standards in the EU. Especially if criminals are involved then we could be eating god knows what.

mathepac

dixiefly wrote: »

... Larry Goodman and his most senior management have very serious questions to answer and they cannot fob it off with a management change in the plant. ...

The leopard doesn't change his spots. He disgraced us before and brought the meat processing industry into disrepute and now he's done it again, only this time the industry may not recover.

dixiefly wrote: »

... Is this an example of the culture across the Group?

I would imagine so going back the generations of duplicity and double-dealing those enterprises engaged in..

The likes of McDonalds made a huge advertising thing of sourcing their burger beef sold in the UK & Ireland in the UK & Ireland. Polish beef etc was off the ingredients list, but Polish horse-meat ....

This crowd, Goodman, Sivercrest, etc, should get jail this time and be sued back to the poor-house by their customers and employees. He has made utter eejits out of all of us.

Mr.Micro

mathepac wrote: »

The leopard doesn't change his spots. He disgraced us before and brought the meat processing industry into disrepute and now he's done it again, only this time the industry may not recover.
I would imagine so going back the generations of duplicity and double-dealing those enterprises engaged in..

The likes of McDonalds made a huge advertising thing of sourcing their burger beef sold in the UK & Ireland in the UK & Ireland. Polish beef etc was off the ingredients list, but Polish horse-meat ....

This crowd, Goodman, Sivercrest, etc, should get jail this time and be sued back to the poor-house by their customers and employees. He has made utter eejits out of all of us.

Don't worry the producers of the non beef but 100% horse sludge burger will plead ignorance and that will be that. Why are we importing this filler c*ap, when we are a major beef producer? Are there any standards here at all? There was no financial regulator, and now there is no trading standards or food safety authorities. In name only. The state is paying thousands of officials to do a job and look what we get. Ireland the country of no regulation where the chancer is king.

mathepac

Mr.Micro wrote: »

... now there is no trading standards or food safety authorities. In name only. The state is paying thousands of officials to do a job and look what we get. Ireland the country of no regulation where the chancer is king.

I think you might need to check your facts. The alarm was raised by FSA here in Ireland based on their DNA tests on processed meat samples. They in turn informed "trading standards" and "food safety authorities" in the UK who right now still do not have the capability to do the tests the FSA did to high-light the problem.

mathepac

woodoo wrote: »

... Insinuating that Ireland's standards aren't up to scratch.

The testing standards here are better than the UK's own right now, as I have just pointed out above; the total lack of moral standards demonstrated by money-grabbers like Silvercrest, Goodman & Co are what has let the country down.

Mr.Micro

mathepac wrote: »

I think you might need to check your facts. The alarm was raised by FSA here in Ireland based on their DNA tests on processed meat samples. They in turn informed "trading standards" and "food safety authorities" in the UK who right now still do not have the capability to do the tests the FSA did to high-light the problem.

I will bet that the FSA acted on a tip off. What have they been doing up to this time as this sort of practice has probably been going on for years. Millions of meat products out there and nobody, not even the trading standards thought to check them periodically? You may find that the FSA has to send the samples to Germany for testing and our level of sophistication in testing is far less than portrayed in the media.

Bichon Lover

Greenmachine wrote: »

I see Polish official are denying the results of the Irish Dna test. How we should react is place an embargo on polish meat products till this has been sorted. What will actually happen is SFA.

Keep up to date.
"Comigel, which also produced the contaminated Findus beef lasagnes, has blamed its suppliers. Erick Lehagre said he believed his company was buying French beef from a company called Spanghero but it had since told him it had come from Romania."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2013/feb/09/horsemeat-scandal-responsibility-retailers?INTCMP=SRCH

ROMANIA? where next?

coolshannagh28

mathepac wrote: »

The leopard doesn't change his spots. He disgraced us before and brought the meat processing industry into disrepute and now he's done it again, only this time the industry may not recover.
I would imagine so going back the generations of duplicity and double-dealing those enterprises engaged in..

The likes of McDonalds made a huge advertising thing of sourcing their burger beef sold in the UK & Ireland in the UK & Ireland. Polish beef etc was off the ingredients list, but Polish horse-meat ....

This crowd, Goodman, Sivercrest, etc, should get jail this time and be sued back to the poor-house by their customers and employees. He has made utter eejits out of all of us.

The market will take care of this if it is allowed to, ABP will suffer the consequences, loss of contracts then.confidence followed by extinction .
This would have happened naturally in the early 90 s but the government intervened and changed the future of the beef industry much as current governments worldwide have intervened in the financial markets socialising trading debts to the ultimate detriment of taxpayers .
The ordinary man always loses when natural justice is thwarted,

goat2

has anybody had the truely irish products.
i first tasted their sausages at a ploughing match a good few yrs ago, and i always buy their sausages since,

they are 100% irish from farm to fork,

supporting our own is what it is all about.

after what we are hearing it is great to know we still have them,

i am sure there are others that have 100% irish, but i cannot think of them at this moment.

anyone else know of names that we can be sure are doing as it says on the pack

thebman

goat2 wrote: »

has anybody had the truely irish products.
i first tasted their sausages at a ploughing match a good few yrs ago, and i always buy their sausages since,

they are 100% irish from farm to fork,

supporting our own is what it is all about.

after what we are hearing it is great to know we still have them,

i am sure there are others that have 100% irish, but i cannot think of them at this moment.

anyone else know of names that we can be sure are doing as it says on the pack

I buy them, taste really good and will be even more likely to do so after the lunacy of the horse meat scandals.

Going Forward

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Findus, a UK purveyor of processed tat, sourced the product found to be 100% Horsemeat labelled as Beef from a French company. Luckily this is now an EU wide problem and Coveney as chairman of the EU food ministers should be able to organise an EU wide investigation and kick this to touch fairly rapidly.

Findus, as a result of my being indoctrinated with 70s TV ads, was a name synonymous with good quality frozen foods.

Now I would like to see their demise.

Are we as consumers really expected to believe that this is a total fluke, that food manufacturers are oblivious and do not know what they are actually producing? And that food ingredient suppliers would not be tempted to substitute horsemeat at a fifth of the price of beef when possible?

Where are the 200,000 horses that we export every year ending up?

As for the supermarkets, they ask no questions once the products come in cheap enough.

BTW anyone else get any shredded blue plastic in Aldi pate lately?

murphaph

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Uk Food safety now blaming 'international criminal' types. Thankfully the longer it goes on the more we look like victims not perpretators. Not that I consider Larry Goodman a victim of any sort but we can start the bounceback next week announcing ourselves as as the first country to cleanse itself of Horsemeat etc.

To give ourselves some credit in what appears now to be a European wide problem, Ireland was the FIRST country to find that there is a serious problem. I think we can be rightly proud of our FSAI here. They found the DNA that has exploded this whole thing.

Goodman is no saint but I think his firm have been conned like others.

murphaph

Going Forward wrote: »

Findus, as a result of my being indoctrinated with 70s TV ads, was a name synonymous with good quality frozen foods.

Now I would like to see their demise.

Are we as consumers really expected to believe that this is a total fluke, that food manufacturers are oblivious and do not know what they are actually producing? And that food ingredient suppliers would not be tempted to substitute horsemeat at a fifth of the price of beef when possible?

Where are the 200,000 horses that we export every year ending up?

As for the supermarkets, they ask no questions once the products come in cheap enough.

BTW anyone else get any shredded blue plastic in Aldi pate lately?

The thing is, horse meat is either equivalent in price or more expensive than beef in many countries (like France).

The reason this thing may have happened is because Romania was banned from exporting live horses for slaughter to Italy (mainly) and has been forced to slaughter at home. This meat is not preferred in Italy (fresh meat is preferred) so the meat has immediately lost a lot of its value. This coupled with a recent ban on using horses and carts on the highway in Romania (Romania still uses horses in agriculture quite widely) has meant horses have become even more "surplus to requirements" there, further reducing the price of Romanian horse meat.

So, circumstances have conspired in recent times to make Romanian horse meat suddenly cheaper than it was before, obviously prompting some people to substitute it for beef. We need to possibly limit the length of the supply chain by law (but this would appear to be difficult). I think the ONLY way people can be satisfied about what they're eating is to buy food that they know is produced locally. This means spending more money on your food.

Bichon Lover

From the UK:

"Owen Paterson, the Environment Secretary, has conceded that tests being carried out on food found to contain horse meat could reveal that they contain products “injurious to human health”.

How long before the useless Coveney admits this too?

In the meantime, I am with Murphaph and buying only from my local butcher.

bb12

at the end of the day people are now going to have to realise that meat is going to become a luxury item. and not something that you have every day...this is part of the problem of growing human populations, loss of habitats, growing prevalence of new diseases and climate change which is making farming more difficult and more expensive. food is becoming a more expensive commodity by the day and soon enough there will be food wars starting with the poorer countries first. i can't see how there will ever be cheap beef burgers or cheap beef processed foods available in the supermarkets again.

woodoo

Bichon Lover wrote: »

In the meantime, I am with Murphaph and buying only from my local butcher.

If this crisis sends more people back to their local butcher then good.

mathepac

woodoo wrote: »

If this crisis sends more people back to their local butcher then good.

Is this for the production of more Soylent Green? :eek:

Mr.Micro

murphaph wrote: »

To give ourselves some credit in what appears now to be a European wide problem, Ireland was the FIRST country to find that there is a serious problem. I think we can be rightly proud of our FSAI here. They found the DNA that has exploded this whole thing.

Goodman is no saint but I think his firm have been conned like others.

I would ask why the likes of Goodman and the others would add this filler ingredient without knowing exactly what is in it? The product that it was going into is consumed by children and whoever. It does not wash IMO, and sourcing this filler from abroad and not knowing the source and origins, is down right negligent. It could be diseased, parasite ridden, toxic, drug and chemical laced, anything. On a simple level would one put any old c*ap into a dish without knowing what it is and give it to your family?

rodento

Looks bad for us

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2276287/Horse-abandoned-Ireland-week-records-SLAUGHTERED-March.html#axzz2KW5AthZR

A horse recorded as being slaughtered by an Irish abattoir in March 2012 was found wandering the roads of Longford last Sunday in the latest alarming twist in the horsemeat scandal.
The discovery of the small, black and white cob known as ‘Charlie’ – 11 months after official records state he was slaughtered – offers concrete proof of the chaos that the State’s traceability system for horses is in.
Experts last night suggested that Charlie’s horse passport – which would have confirmed that he was safe to enter the food chain – could have been transferred to another, larger horse that would have been banned from doing so.

murphaph

Mr.Micro wrote: »

I would ask why the likes of Goodman and the others would add this filler ingredient without knowing exactly what is in it? The product that it was going into is consumed by children and whoever. It does not wash IMO, and sourcing this filler from abroad and not knowing the source and origins, is down right negligent. It could be diseased, parasite ridden, toxic, drug and chemical laced, anything. On a simple level would one put any old c*ap into a dish without knowing what it is and give it to your family?

I see where you're coming from but short of banning all food processing, there's not much that can be done to absolutely ensure that a particular ready meal really only contains what's stated on the pack. I really don't believe legislation can ensure it. Even just eating vegetables leaves you open to pesticides and I bet you a million quid that not all "organic" fruit and veg is really so.

You could grow your own veg I suppose to be absolutely sure.

This issue goes way beyond meat processing anyway. A tin of beans probably contains all manner of ingredients that have been bought and sold and passed from one agent/manufacturer to another wholesaler before being made into the sauce that goes into the beans etc. There could be muck in just about any processed food product because the longer the supply chain, the easier it becomes to substitute or indeed deliberately poison an ingredient.

Goodman (and just about every other cheap burger producer) will be using filler material like this to keep the cost of the product down because the price point is what drives most consumers.

murphaph

rodento wrote: »

Looks bad for us

It sure does.

I wonder why horses use this passport business. It looks like it's time to subject them to the same system as other livestock, even if not intended to go into the food chain at the outset, just in case they do end up there (as many do as they become unwanted by their owners-that's another debate in itself).

Sponge Bob

That horse story will cause more mayhem than the original story. Cue hordes of Romanian and Polish journalists visiting Longford FFS

squod

rodento wrote: »

concrete proof of the chaos that the State’s traceability system for horses is in............

Don't worry about it. I'm sure there'll be an inquiry into this which will find that there's nobody at fault. No-one will get fired and some minor change to the ''system'' will be offered to appease the public.

KyussBishop

murphaph wrote: »

I see where you're coming from but short of banning all food processing, there's not much that can be done to absolutely ensure that a particular ready meal really only contains what's stated on the pack. I really don't believe legislation can ensure it. Even just eating vegetables leaves you open to pesticides and I bet you a million quid that not all "organic" fruit and veg is really so.

You could grow your own veg I suppose to be absolutely sure.

This issue goes way beyond meat processing anyway. A tin of beans probably contains all manner of ingredients that have been bought and sold and passed from one agent/manufacturer to another wholesaler before being made into the sauce that goes into the beans etc. There could be muck in just about any processed food product because the longer the supply chain, the easier it becomes to substitute or indeed deliberately poison an ingredient.

Goodman (and just about every other cheap burger producer) will be using filler material like this to keep the cost of the product down because the price point is what drives most consumers.

Well, there's a pretty easy way to do something about it: Have a regulator that tests food products occasionally, and who puts out extraordinarily stiff fines for breaches (more than enough to undo all profits from the breach, even if it bankrupts the company).

People aren't going to risk the destruction of their business, if proper regulations are put in place and enforced very strongly.