Feb 9th Protest - will you be joining?

tayto lover

Almaviva wrote: »

Nah.

Populist nonsense, instigated by opportunists, exploiting the financial pain being felt by many, and the ignorance of the common man to make any worthwhile judgement on whether or not austerity is the correct economic tonic for Ireland. Let those you elected get on with the job.

If anyone is organising a protest against the Feb 9th protest against austerity, let me know

Sure go yourself and shout at the marchers.
Don't be afraid to make your stand. Be brave.

road_high

hmmm wrote: »

How many private sector people do you expect at this march? I'd be surprised if even a tenth of the people there were private sector. Most of the "anti austerity" crowd are those who feed at the trough of the poor taxpayer who has to pay for it all.

Exactly. LOL at the PS "we pay the same taxes" line...where do you think the money comes from in the first place? Government spending does not ultimately create wealth. Some of their wages does a loop in the tax take. The rest has to come from the Private sector or in the case of Ireland borrowed from the imf (the only ones that would lend to us) and paid back with interest, of course.

dvpower

ilovesleep wrote: »

How are we responsible for what went on in offices and behind closed doors in banks? We are all responsible for our own finances and for no body elses.

The blanket guarantee made us responsible.

woodoo

road_high wrote: »

Exactly. LOL at the PS "we pay the same taxes" line...where do you think the money comes from in the first place? .

Who said anything about where the money came from. I know well where the money comes from. My point is in relation to taxes on individual workers.

If the government introduces a new tax do we or do we not have to pay it too. Does that or does it not lower my take home pay the same as it does yours. That is the point i'm making.

tayto lover

dvpower wrote: »

The blanket guarantee made us responsible.

Not buying that at all.
We have never been told the truth.
We haven't been told what was written in the infamous letter, who was in the room, what Cowan and Fitzy were discussing in their "golf meeting" etc.
We are being forced to pay the debts of the friends of the Govt of the time and are being lied to constantly by this crowd.
No not buying that at all.
The only guarantee I gave was to pay my mortgage and I have fulfilled that.

ilovesleep

starlings wrote: »

No, ilovesleep, I wasn't saying we are each responsible (though collectively, we are at the moment), I was saying that we're all in the same mess. I don't see how we can separate it into individual levels of blame. What I took from your post was that we should all only look after ourselves. Sorry if I misunderstood.

Oh christ no, that's not what I meant. It important and even more so now than ever before to help each other in need.

I agree with what you wrote upon. We're all collectively responsible because the government of the day in 08 made it so.

You wrote that we ran up a huge banking tab. How so? Many people here on boards blame people who bought a mortgage, a house, and other runaway spending as if it was the whole reason of the banking collaspe and that's not so imo but many were fed and led to believe and probably still do believe that 'we all partied' and 'we all went mad'. This isn't so and that was my reply to you. We're all only responsible for our own finan

road_high

woodoo wrote: »

Who said anything about where the money came from. I know well where the money comes from. My point is in relation to taxes on individual workers.

If the government introduces a new tax do we or do we not have to pay it too. Does that or does it not lower my take home pay the same as it does yours. That is the point i'm making.

Fair enough but I'm very concerned about where the money comes from (we all should be) as it's fundamental to where Ireland is going.
Public spending is just not sustainable at this level. It really concerns me we are not living within our means as a country.

ilovesleep

tayto lover wrote: »

Not buying that at all.
We have never been told the truth.
We haven't been told what was written in the infamous letter, who was in the room, what Cowan and Fitzy were discussing in their "golf meeting" etc.
We are being forced to pay the debts of the friends of the Govt of the time and are being lied to constantly by this crowd.
No not buying that at all.
The only guarantee I gave was to pay my mortgage and I have fulfilled that.

Thank you tayto lover.

woodoo

road_high wrote: »

Fair enough but I'm very concerned about where the money comes from (we all should be) as it's fundamental to where Ireland is going.
Public spending is just not sustainable at this level. It really concerns me we are not living within our means as a country.

The three big areas that the government can use to get more is Social welfare PS pay and pensions and income tax.

The PS will offer some more but that will be the 3rd time they have come to us for money. A 3rd rate of income tax and a general rise of 1% should be implemented. Also social welfare has to give more it is the biggest spending department at €21 billion.

OAPs haven't given anything yet, children's allowance should not be paid to well off people, crack down on the 'bad back' merchants abusing sick pay. Take money from the dole or wages of convicted criminals to pay for their own legal aid.

dvpower

tayto lover wrote: »

Not buying that at all.

It was bought on your behalf. Tough.

tayto lover

dvpower wrote: »

It was bought on your behalf. Tough.

By crooked people. So it doesn't stand.

starlings

ilovesleep wrote: »

Oh christ no, that's not what I meant. It important and even more so now than ever before to help each other in need.

I agree with what you wrote upon. We're all collectively responsible because the government of the day in 08 made it so.

You wrote that we ran up a huge banking tab. How so? Many people here on boards blame people who bought a mortgage, a house, and other runaway spending as if it was the whole reason of the banking collaspe and that's not so imo but many were fed and led to believe and probably still do believe that 'we all partied' and 'we all went mad'. This isn't so and that was my reply to you. We're all only responsible for our own finan

By "we", I meant "Ireland" as opposed to "them" in "Germany" (another poster had asked why the Germans were shouldering a tiny fraction of the debt). It's a tricky distinction between states and their electorates, which I was thinking of as a democratic block rather than a collection of individuals, and I wish there had been more responsibility on all levels, including the reckless borrower - which is where I politely disagree with you.

JJayoo

The people of Iceland didn't fold and they were recently proved right.

"A European court has cleared the Icelandic government of failing to guarantee minimum levels of compensation for UK and Dutch savers in the collapsed Icesave bank."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-21231535

road_high

=woodoo;8302176
OAPs haven't given anything yet, children's allowance should not be paid to well off people.

I agree OAP's seem to be the only ones with money these days. Though I suspect many of them give it to their pin of their collar kids and grandkids!

Cannot understand why childrens allowance cannot be means tested. It's an outrage that the local Doctor gets the same rate as the guy who lost his job in the crash for example...

dvpower

tayto lover wrote: »

By crooked people. So it doesn't stand.

Ha. I didn't get that memo.

Your problem, tayto, is that you confuse what you'd like to see with what is actually happening.

tayto lover

road_high wrote: »

I agree OAP's seem to be the only ones with money these days. Though I suspect many of them give it to their pin of their collar kids and grandkids!

Cannot understand why childrens allowance cannot be means tested. It's an outrage that the local Doctor gets the same rate as the guy who lost his job in the crash for example...

The OAP's have lived through many recessions and have paid their taxes all their lives.
They should be allowed to live their final years in peace.
The children have been hit too. Education cuts, back to school allowances and cuts to Childrens Benefit.

As I have said before - tax the very rich and rise the Corporate Tax a bit, give Free Legal Aid only to those who have been found innocent. Childrens Benefit to those who need it and stop paying Bondholders.

Dyr

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Since this protest is being organised by the unions then I wouldn't have anything to do with it. The public sector unions are part of the problem not part of the solution.

Ever votáil Fianna Fáil? That's the real part of the problem

woodoo

tayto lover wrote: »

The OAP's have lived through many recessions and have paid their taxes all their lives.
They should be allowed to live their final years in peace.
The children have been hit too. Education cuts, back to school allowances and cuts to Childrens Benefit.

As I have said before - tax the very rich and rise the Corporate Tax a bit, give Free Legal Aid only to those who have been found innocent. Childrens Benefit to those who need it and stop paying Bondholders.

5% would do no harm.

road_high

woodoo wrote: »

5% would do no harm.

And save a lot...

tayto lover

dvpower wrote: »

Ha. I didn't get that memo.

Your problem, tayto, is that you confuse what you'd like to see with what is actually happening.

That's part of my problem with politicians alright. Trying to figure which is lies and which is truth. I don't think they know themselves.

tayto lover

woodoo wrote: »

5% would do no harm.

Don't agree.
5% this year and 5% next year and so it would continue.
Leave them in peace.

woodoo

road_high wrote: »

And save a lot...

The government would be terrified of the journalists calling them ruthless and attacking the most vulnerable.

woodoo

tayto lover wrote: »

Don't agree.
5% this year and 5% next year and so it would continue.
Leave them in peace.

Just the once would do. The government wouldn't get away with going back to them again.

dvpower

tayto lover wrote: »

That's part of my problem with politicians alright. Trying to figure which is lies and which is truth. I don't think they know themselves.

You should go on this protest. It'll be full of like minded people who are unhappy but can't really articulate what they'd like to see different.

It'll be a 'down with this sort of thing' deal.

road_high

dvpower wrote: »

You should go on this protest. It'll be full of like minded people who are unhappy but can't really articulate what they'd like to see different.

It'll be a 'down with this sort of thing' deal.

And like this thread. Lots of anger at the Govt and famous "bondholders". But no alternative to saving the money or creating wealth to pull us out of this hole.

tenton

hmmm wrote: »

How many private sector people do you expect at this march? I'd be surprised if even a tenth of the people there were private sector. Most of the "anti austerity" crowd are those who feed at the trough of the poor taxpayer who has to pay for it all.

Well said.

I'd say it will be well less than 10% even.

tayto lover

dvpower wrote: »

You should go on this protest. It'll be full of like minded people who are unhappy but can't really articulate what they'd like to see different.

It'll be a 'down with this sort of thing' deal.

Oh I intend to.
Which of Enda's speeches do you think he meant -

1. The "it was not your fault" one ?

or

2. "The Irish people went mad" one ?

Maybe he should attend too

squod

road_high wrote: »

And like this thread. Lots of anger at the Govt and famous "bondholders". But no alternative to saving the money or creating wealth to pull us out of this hole.

In fairness if I gave you all the solutions to every problem this ''economy'' faces who do you imagine would implement them? Are all the politicians and PS workers suddenly going to start using cop-on or take good advice? Fuhk no. It's a cosy cartel.

I want the same things I've always wanted. An end to corrupt politics and the introduction of a meaningful democracy. Will you march for that?

tenton

I will not be joing the March and many others I know will not for the following good reason. I am all for protesting about tax increases and the property tax etc. However to put things in context, the household charge property tax will only bring in about half a billion a year. Public service pay and pensions however are still about double what they were 10 years ago. Approx 18 billion versus 9 billion. Thats the elephant in the room. How about cutting the pay and pensions of the partners of the "social partners"?

Government spending should be cut to bring it in line with other countries...thats the elephant in the room.
SIPTU just want to preserve the pay and pensions of their buddies i.e. the top public servants. It was the top public servants ( e.g the government, the central bank, the dept. of finance, the regulator ) who caused the mess / allowed it to happen.
Its ironic they are organising a march to protect the pay and pensions of these very people. The people have had enough. There should be a counter march.

hatrickpatrick

COYW wrote: »

So how exactly does that solve our problems? Or is it just some class of begrudging "justice"/revenge that promotes a feel good factor for "ordinary" people like yourself? What factual grounds do you have for bleeding them until they are broke or is it simply the case that they should be broke coz I am?

You won't get too much from Quinn by the way, he aint exactly flush with cash!

They should be broke because others are broke BECAUSE of them. Is that so hard to understand?
Here's a schoolyard analogy since so many childish arguments are being thrown around here: If I get suspended for fighting, the guy who punched me unprovoked and start the whole fight better get suspended as well, and for longer than I did for fighting back. Fair's fair.

squod

tenton wrote: »

SIPTU just want to preserve the pay and pensions of their buddies i.e. the top public servants. It was the top public servants ( e.g the government, the central bank, the dept. of finance, the regulator ) who caused the mess / allowed it to happen.
Its ironic they are organising a march to protect the pay and pensions of these very people. The people have had enough. There should be a counter march.

Good point in fairness.

dvpower

squod wrote: »

I want the same things I've always wanted. An end to corrupt politics and the introduction of a meaningful democracy. Will you march for that?

Corrupt politics in this context meaning policies you disagree with.
And meaningful democracy meaning the politicians you like implementing them.

Furious_George

jank wrote: »

The Irish public is like the boy who cried wolf. Moan about everything and then the serious stuff gets through unnoticed. What is the aim of the protest. What is the objective. If they are just a means to be angry it's a waste of time. Better off organising at the polls.

This is a very passive stance. lets say i vote in a government. Now lets say within a month the government start bringing in policies i think are damaging to the country and in specific my demographic. Do i wait 5 years until the next election to express my discontent. I dont advocate protesting against every little gripe but some specific issues are worth protesting and letting the government know they do not have a mandate from me to continue as they are. i think the promissory notes issue may be one such issue for me.

squod

dvpower wrote: »

Corrupt politics in this context meaning policies you disagree with.
And meaningful democracy meaning the politicians you like implementing them.

You've been consistently trying to misrepresent everything I've said so far in this thread. I'd appreciate it if you didn't respond at all to my posts. I have no need for internet trolls.

dxhound2005

JJayoo wrote: »

The people of Iceland didn't fold and they were recently proved right.

"A European court has cleared the Icelandic government of failing to guarantee minimum levels of compensation for UK and Dutch savers in the collapsed Icesave bank."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-21231535

In case of any confusion this ruling only dismissed the action from the UK and Holland for a more immediate repayment of their claims. Iceland has already paid some of the money and will eventually repay it all. Iceland hopes to join the EU and it cannot afford to make itself a pariah state.

http://www.mfa.is/tasks/icesave/q--a/

http://ec.europa.eu/enlargement/countries/detailed-country-information/iceland/index_en.htm

dvpower

Furious_George wrote: »

This is a very passive stance. lets say i vote in a government. Now lets say within a month the government start bringing in policies i think are damaging to the country and in specific my demographic. Do i wait 5 years until the next election to express my discontent. I dont advocate protesting against every little gripe but some specific issues are worth protesting and letting the government know they do not have a mandate from me to continue as they are. i think the promissory notes issue may be one such issue for me.

This protest isn't about a specific issue. Its about 'debt and jobs' according to ICTU, but there are no specific demands or policies they want implemented.
Its just 'debt is bad'.

They may as we'll be protesting the bad weather.

tayto lover

dvpower wrote: »

This protest isn't about a specific issue. Its about 'debt and jobs' according to ICTU, but there are no specific demands or policies they want implemented.
Its just 'debt is bad'.

They may as we'll be protesting the bad weather.

The "put up and shut up" thing is what the Regulator and Govt did. That's why we are in trouble now.
The people have seen enough of that.
Up and at them people. Let them know we're watching their every move.
We did not cause the problems but are being forced to pay for the.

dvpower

squod wrote: »

You've been consistently trying to misrepresent everything I've said so far in this thread.

That's not true. I'm just telling it how I see it.

squod wrote: »

I'd appreciate it if you didn't respond at all to my posts.

There's a button for that.

squod wrote: »

I have no need for internet trolls.

There's a button for that too.

dvpower

tayto lover wrote: »

The "put up and shut up" thing is what the Regulator and Govt did. That's why we are in trouble now.
The people have seen enough of that.

Nobody is asking anyone to 'put up and shut up', but the organisers of this protest need to 'put up or shut up' i.e. put some alternative policies forward that aren't just slogans like 'lift the debt'.
Does anyone actually know what they mean by this or are they just going for the most bland statement possible that everyone can shape into their own personal view?

tayto lover wrote: »

We did not cause the problems but are being forced to pay for the.

Depends on who the 'we' is really.

tayto lover

dvpower wrote: »

Nobody is asking anyone to 'put up and shut up', but the organisers of this protest need to 'put up or shut up' i.e. put some alternative policies forward that aren't just slogans like 'lift the debt'.
Does anyone actually know what they mean by this or are they just going for the most bland statement possible that everyone can shape into their own personal view?


Depends on who the 'we' is really.

I haven't a clue what banners or slogans they use or will use.
I represent myself and my family and nobody else as do many people who protest. We are not affiliated to any group and don't even wait for speeches.
My presence is my protest.

Hilly Bill

Madam_X wrote: »

Maximum number of people not being at work. Well actually that's probably Sunday.
I don't care if it doesn't achieve anything - nothing wrong with demonstrating how people feel; and people need to be seen to be doing so, otherwise they'll just look complacent and resigned. Not doing anything at all is an even less palatable alternative.

Shinners taking part in the march doesn't mean they represent me or vice versa. All kinds will be at it. Saying people who attend will somehow be tarnished because of the presence of SF is silly and a cop-out.

I didnt say anything about the shinners.

So what you are basically saying is lets protest on our day off? You want to protest but you want a free day in your diary before doing so?

bluewolf

bluewolf wrote: »

Yeah, sitting around giving out is going to magic jobs out of thin air

No

I've sat on my ar$e for the last 4 years bitching and moaning in pubs about the crisis, but when push came to shove I never did anything about it.

This is the first time I'll show up for a protest in my life.

I'm a private sector bank employee (in an U.S. bank), and even though I despise the unions, I know that if I do nothing then the powers that be will take that as a sign of "we can push them some more in the next budget".

To see educational facilities being cut (including foreign language facilities in the 21st century???!!!!) and at the same time the banks and bondholders being bailed out with juicy pensions, is the most shocking perversion of justice in our history.

I personally want to look my kids and grandkids in the eye and say that at least I did something, however small, to protest about it.

This comment, and the number of "Thanks" it got, is symbolic of the dividing and conquering of the Irish people that was done first by the British, and now by the Troika.

You look at the people involved in the protest and then make your mind up?

Way to be rational and fact driven :rolleyes:

Why don't you grow a pair and actually make a stand for what's right? Sure, what's done is done, but if you don't make at least some expression of protest, then more and more will be taken out of your pay cheque in taxes, and services will be cut for both you, me, the pensioners of this country, and those attending educational establishments now and in the future.

FreddyKruger

The Campaign against household and water tax will be marching on the day. Many people have not yet paid the Household charge and the governement are hoping to reduce this figure bit-by-bit. any people who have not yet paid should come out on the 9th and keep your resolve strong.
And for people who have paid but may be regretting it, don't worry because the property tax is next , then water charges. when will it end ?
PLEASE JOIN THE MARCH

Almaviva

FreddyKruger wrote: »

And for people who have paid but may be regretting it, don't worry because the property tax is next , then water charges. when will it end ? PLEASE JOIN THE MARCH

When you are paying enough for the state to pay your bills.

PLEASE BOYCOTT THE MARCH.

dvpower

dvpower wrote: »

This protest isn't about a specific issue. Its about 'debt and jobs' according to ICTU, but there are no specific demands or policies they want implemented.
Its just 'debt is bad'.

'Debt and jobs' can be broken down as follows:

1) Bank debt that is taken from the banks' balance sheets' on to the taxpayer's balance sheets. The government ploughs billions in to the banks (from the public pension reserve as well as future borrowing) in order for the banks to survive. Result? Zombie banks and a broke country needing a bailout.

2) Jobs include the ones lost in the immediate crash, but also the ones caused by the government raising taxes and cutting services, to keep the banks alive, and said banks don't lend to SMEs, which are the "lifeblood of the country"

tenton

If the unions get high support in the march they will intrepret that as a defence of the existing high public sector wages and pensions. As said before,SIPTU just want to preserve the pay and pensions of their buddies i.e. the top public servants. It was the top public servants ( e.g the government, the central bank, the dept. of finance, the regulator ) who caused the mess / allowed it to happen. Anyone else who joins the March is very naieve and just wants to hammer the private sector further to protect the well off public sector.t

dvpower

FreddyKruger wrote: »

The Campaign against household and water tax will be marching on the day. Many people have not yet paid the Household charge and the governement are hoping to reduce this figure bit-by-bit. any people who have not yet paid should come out on the 9th and keep your resolve strong.
And for people who have paid but may be regretting it, don't worry because the property tax is next , then water charges. when will it end ?
PLEASE JOIN THE MARCH

^^^
This is an example of what's wrong with the protest next week.
Its supposed to be something to do with the bank debt, and now its also about being against property tax and water charges - for some.

Every group will be represented, all protesting different things; and with only one thing in common - they all have problems, but no solutions.

dvpower

Deleted User wrote: »

'Debt and jobs' can be broken down as follows:

1) Bank debt that is taken from the banks' balance sheets' on to the taxpayer's balance sheets. The government ploughs billions in to the banks (from the public pension reserve as well as future borrowing) in order for the banks to survive. Result? Zombie banks and a broke country needing a bailout.

2) Jobs include the ones lost in the immediate crash, but also the ones caused by the government raising taxes and cutting services, to keep the banks alive, and said banks don't lend to SMEs, which are the "lifeblood of the country"

We'll, yeah. I get what they say the problem is: Debt=Bad, No Jobs=Bad.
I don't need a protest march to know that.

But what do they want?? (please don't just say less debt and more jobs)

Mr Benevolent

My name is URL wrote: »

You're happy to pay tax yet avoid doing so? riiiiight

Never heard of classic tax?

Dyr

dvpower wrote: »

We'll, yeah. I get what they say the problem is: Debt=Bad, No Jobs=Bad.
I don't need a protest march to know that.

But what do they want?? (please don't just say less debt and more jobs)

Same root cause to all those problems. But sit on your hole, twill be grand. Inda will look after his own.