Landlord retaining deposit

TheBigKahuna

Common question here I'm sure, but have to ask/vent - if only for my sanity.

After 1 years renting, we've moved to a new property today. We've paid all our bills, paid rent on time and never caused any problems - we're actually ideal tenants as we're a young(ish) working couple who don't drink/smoke/have pets or party. We're quite dull.

The landlord claims the property was left in a very dirty condition and she will have to take the price of a professional Cleaning from our deposit. She also wants to re-paint the kitchen and hallway because the 3m hooks we used to hang pictures lifted some paint. Specifically, in 2 patches, each one approximately 2 x 3cm.

Long story longer, the house isn't dirty, it was cleaned before we left by ourselves (I have pics to prove it) and it is in excellent condition and has barely suffered and wear and tear. All this after she verbally threatened to throw us out, before Christmas, for using an electric heater.

God, that was long. Anyone have an opinion? Or am I the only one who thinks she's being completely unreasonable?

ABajaninCork

Wear & tear. Did you take pictures when you left?

IMO, the landlady's taking the proverbial. Tell her (in writing - NOT text, call or e-mail) to return the deposit in full or you'll be taking a case with the PRTB.

If professional cleaning is required, then ask for full itemised receipts from a reputable company.

Cheeky cow!

delthedriver

By all means mail her and keep copies.

It will be interesting to here her response

TheBigKahuna

ABajaninCork wrote: »

Wear & tear. Did you take pictures when you left?

IMO, the landlady's taking the proverbial. Tell her (in writing - NOT text, call or e-mail) to return the deposit in full or you'll be taking a case with the PRTB.

If professional cleaning is required, then ask for full itemised receipts from a reputable company.

Cheeky cow!

I took over 70 photos of the place from top to bottom, just in case she tried something like this. I've to meet her this morning for an 'inspection'. Considering that I gave the keys back Thursday, and it's now Saturday that she's doing her final inspection, I'm taking the stance that if there's any issues, they were caused in the 3 days since I left. How am I to know what happened since Thursday evening? This is only half of what she's ever done, if I had the time to type the rest up, you wouldn't believe it!

McCloskey_A

From someone that has rented a lot over the years, as a student and now as a professional I would suggest that perhaps the landlord may be better once u meet her at the house,
Also would be conscious of the fact that tenants - myself included once can neglect to clean things like skirting boards, windows, cobwebs etc and a reasonable rather than heated discussion can resolve this,
Everyone needs to remember that all people have different perceptions about how a property should be left,
Go and meet her and write down the areas she is discussing, if reasonable agree to clean these for re inspection and then there won't be any issue,

McCloskey_A

Also would suggest to avoid this problem in ur new property check everything is clean with the landlord and give copies of pics to both parties then everything should be in the same condition when u move out, simple

hawkwind23

my advice to all renters is to never pay the last months rent.
this usually equates to the deposit.
meet the landlord/rep at the property and discuss the checklist , once everything is in order the deposit can be used to settle your balance.

s20101938

As long as 90% of the government are landlords themselves, tenants will always have minimum real rights in this farce of a country.

McCloskey_A

hawkwind23 wrote: »

my advice to all renters is to never pay the last months rent.
this usually equates to the deposit.
meet the landlord/rep at the property and discuss the checklist , once everything is in order the deposit can be used to settle your balance.

You cannot legally do this,

hawkwind23

McCloskey_A wrote: »

You cannot legally do this,

you cant legally withhold a deposit either!
my suggestion would give a level playing field.

StillWaters

s20101938 wrote: »

As long as 90% of the government are landlords themselves, tenants will always have minimum real rights in this farce of a country.

Are you serious? Have you any idea of landlord obligations in this country?

What 'real right' would you like tenants to have that they don't already, and is not in the programme for Government?

highly1111

we had a similar issue with our landlord. took it to the PRTB and won the case. It costs €25 to do it but the process takes months. In our case it was only €150 but we did it as a matter of principle. Don't let her away with it no matter what anyway - it's not fair on her next tenant. She needs to know what is acceptable and what is not acceptable. We were lucky that we had a letting agent who sided completely with us so it was a no brainer for the PRTB.

Do you know how many properties she has? Is there a letting agent as an intermediary? Is she definitely registered with the PRTB? (And also, if you wanted to be very underhand about it - which you may want if she's been completely unreasonable - call the revenue and make sure she's declaring the rent as taxable income...... - just food for thought)

nadel302009

Write a letter to your previous Landlord make sure to write a Date on it.And tell her you want your money back within10 days and if she deducts any money to send receipts with it.If she doesn't , that you would go to the PRTB,Treshold and your solicitor.We deal currently with such an example of Landord. And check those Rental Boards if the Property is readvertised and make a printout to have proof when it was readvertised mine was readvertised on the same day he got the keys so it couldn't have been dirty . You should hear from her Solicitor take all your Evidence and Letters you wrote and go to your Solicitor.If you have a receipt of a Deposit that would be handy too. Did you get a copie of the Lease when you moved in if not thats illegal too and is the tenancy registered(did you sign for that when you moved in)and the house(check register on PRTB)

TheBigKahuna

highly1111 wrote: »

we had a similar issue with our landlord. took it to the PRTB and won the case. It costs €25 to do it but the process takes months. In our case it was only €150 but we did it as a matter of principle. Don't let her away with it no matter what anyway - it's not fair on her next tenant. She needs to know what is acceptable and what is not acceptable. We were lucky that we had a letting agent who sided completely with us so it was a no brainer for the PRTB.

Do you know how many properties she has? Is there a letting agent as an intermediary? Is she definitely registered with the PRTB? (And also, if you wanted to be very underhand about it - which you may want if she's been completely unreasonable - call the revenue and make sure she's declaring the rent as taxable income...... - just food for thought)

No letting agent, we're dealing directly with her. We're all fully registered with the Prtb. I don't know if she has any other properties, but God help anyone who has her as a landlord.

dissed doc

House needs to be professionally cleaned and also repainted. Professional cleaning is standard in the UK and repainting is also standard on the continent. Always paid for by the tenant.

Seems reasonable to me. You put the property back into the order it was when you moved in, and you pay for any damages.

God help anyone who has you as a tenant!!

highly1111

TheBigKahuna wrote: »

No letting agent, we're dealing directly with her. We're all fully registered with the Prtb. I don't know if she has any other properties, but God help anyone who has her as a landlord.

It may be that the PRTB is the way to go forward so. We couldn't believe it when it happened to us - couldn't believe it (esp. with an email from the letting agent to her cc'ing us recommending the return of the full deposit) - but it's the only avenue to take.

Finally, a landlord should never withhold monies without first giving you the opportunity to rectify it to their standards first - so email her and keep a record asking to meet to try and rectify the situation before having to involve the PRTB. (Don't go threatening the PRTB just yet - just ask to meet so that you can resolve any issues - and if she's not agreeable then go the PRTB route) Myself and my husband are convinced that our landlord was going to try and pull a fast one as she didn't think myself and my husband would be that bothered going to the PRTB for the sake of a couple of hundred euros. She was wrong - and she now has a judgement against her.

TheBigKahuna

dissed doc wrote: »

House needs to be professionally cleaned and also repainted. Professional cleaning is standard in the UK and repainting is also standard on the continent. Always paid for by the tenant.

Seems reasonable to me. You put the property back into the order it was when you moved in, and you pay for any damages.

God help anyone who has you as a tenant!!

If that's the case, then every property, however the condition, would have to be professionally cleaned and repainted. If that's the case, then it should be clearly stated beforehand that the landlord will be taking money from your deposit regardless. If no reasonable wear and tear is allowed for, then the whole point of a security deposit is negated. All that aside, this is more of a last straw, than a breaking point. The last 2 months have put my fiancée and I under huge stress as the threat of eviction before Christmas was worrying enough without us being left short of money now because the, in the landlords opinion, the property wasn't clean enough. I took photos before I left and I would dare anyone to find dirt in it.

desertcircus

dissed doc wrote: »

House needs to be professionally cleaned and also repainted. Professional cleaning is standard in the UK and repainting is also standard on the continent. Always paid for by the tenant.

Seems reasonable to me. You put the property back into the order it was when you moved in, and you pay for any damages.

God help anyone who has you as a tenant!!

This just isn't realistic. Professional cleaning and repainting is not a standard deduction in Ireland.

heffoo

dissed doc wrote: »

House needs to be professionally cleaned and also repainted. Professional cleaning is standard in the UK and repainting is also standard on the continent. Always paid for by the tenant.

Seems reasonable to me. You put the property back into the order it was when you moved in, and you pay for any damages.

God help anyone who has you as a tenant!!

Sorry now but you seem to forget this is IRELAND not the uk or the continent

the world wonders

dissed doc wrote: »

House needs to be professionally cleaned and also repainted. Professional cleaning is standard in the UK and repainting is also standard on the continent. Always paid for by the tenant.

Please don't post random anecdotes from other jurisdictions as if they applied in this country.

The relevant legislation here is the Residential Tenancies Act 2004, which specifically states that the landlord is only allowed retain the deposit in case of unpaid rent, or damage beyond normal wear and tear. There is no obligation on the tenant to pay for professional cleaning or repainting, unless there is exceptional damage beyond what would be expected in normal use

God help anyone who has you as a tenant!!

And I pity anyone who has someone with your ignorance of their legal obligations as a landlord.

dissed doc

Unless you are a professional cleaner, then it's pretty subjective what the standard is. Best way to ensure your deposit is returned is to have the place professionally cleaned. If you damage the paint, then repair it. Why is there such hostility to being a respectable human being?

Solair

I wish people wouldn't just make sweeping statements about "the continent". It's a vast place, with loads of countries and almost half a billion people (in the EU states alone).

I've rented in several continental countries and repainting when leaving wasn't required in any of them.

There are also totally different types of leases. Ireland's normal leases are for furnished / semi furnished places with relatively little tenure. Many leases elsewhere are long term and for unfurnished places. Sometimes you may even have to fit your own kitchen in certain types of long term lets in some countries.

I've also rented in the UK and professional cleaning is not generally required, unless you somehow signed up to pay for it in an agreement. The tenant simply has to leave the place clean. English landlords and agents are often even worse than here though when it comes to trying to pull a fast one and retain deposits (in my experience).

Also, Scotland tends to be better regulated than England & Wales when it comes to property laws so, you even generalise about the UK.

I don't really find these comparisons with unspecified places helpful.

In an Irish context, the tenant would usually not be allowed to repaint either as it could be a breech of the lease.

We had hassle from one landlord because we dry cleaned the (absolutely) disgusting curtains. They were totally undamaged. However, she called in going mental at us because they weren't on the rails. We had dry cleaned them and put them into storage in the wardrobe (disgusting looking curtains)

It resolved itself but, there are loads of totally unreasonable, unprofessional types letting property here. It's generally not well regulated and a lot of them seem to think they're 19th century landlords and are blissfully unaware of the law.

It's very much pot luck. Some are great some aren't.

You should have to do a PRTB course before you can let a premises! A lot of it is down to total ignorance of the law!

OP, I'd simply open a case with the PRTB. There's no point in threatening to. If the landlord is not complying with the rules, that's her problem.

TheBigKahuna

dissed doc wrote: »

Unless you are a professional cleaner, then it's pretty subjective what the standard is. Best way to ensure your deposit is returned is to have the place professionally cleaned. If you damage the paint, then repair it. Why is there such hostility to being a respectable human being?

The paintwork damage is quite literally a 1 inch high square. I don't see why I should be expected to essentially redecorate the room for what is just a tiny mark. It should be completely within the scope of a "respectable human being" to allow for such inconsequential marks. Are you saying that after a years occupancy, the house should be untouched? If so, then you live with unrealistic expect

TheBigKahuna

dissed doc wrote: »

Unless you are a professional cleaner, then it's pretty subjective what the standard is. Best way to ensure your deposit is returned is to have the place professionally cleaned. If you damage the paint, then repair it. Why is there such hostility to being a respectable human being?

The paintwork damage is quite literally a 1 inch high square. I don't see why I should be expected to essentially redecorate the room for what is just a tiny mark. It should be completely within the scope of a "respectable human being" to allow for such inconsequential marks. Are you saying that after a years occupancy, the house should be untouched? If so, then you live with unrealistic expectations of how people live. Why should a tenant have to pay for a professional cleaning service if it is cleaned to a normal healthy standard? If the landlord expects it to be so clean, it should be clearly and concisely laid to the tenant prior to their signing of the lease. I'm a tenant, not a psychic.

Ray Palmer

I really don't get the cleaning charge some LL like to charge. I expect to have to clean the place as a tenant never cleans a place properly. Unless you actually moved furniture you haven't cleaned the place in my eyes. The cooker is the big one every time.

Damage to paint work from things stuck on the wall is certainly a thing I would retain deposit on. It is not normal wear a tear and two small spots requires a whole wall paint and can therefore require the whole room. Pictures also mark walls where they rest.

Mr.Wemmick

hawkwind23 wrote: »

my advice to all renters is to never pay the last months rent.
this usually equates to the deposit.
meet the landlord/rep at the property and discuss the checklist , once everything is in order the deposit can be used to settle your balance.

Sadly, I agree with using the deposit as the last month's rent. Mostly because I have real problems with a deposit being in the hands of a landlord who most likely will want to keep it (if all the threads on boards are anything to go by) as it has been spent or they wish to re-paint the property at the tenant's expense.
Unless said deposit is held independently in a bank a/c and can not be released unless both tenant and LL sign to agree, I don't see how it can not be anything other than weighted in the favour of the LL's subjective opinion, much to the hassle and stress of the thousands of honest and decent renters out there - including the OP.

I have never paid my last month's rent in Ireland (except when living in europe where rental procedures are regulated). I have always informed the LL of the repairs I carried out; amount of oil/gas remaining etc. making sure the LL has enough oil/gas until they get new renters; clean the property - always better than how I got it; invite them over a couple of weeks before leaving to go over the property together and check everything is in order, and then do a check again on the last day of moving out. It's always worked well for me and I have never had any difficulties.. but then I make sure I am in control of it.

'Tis a sad state of affairs reading/hearing about renters in Ireland being ripped off again and again..

deman

dissed doc wrote: »

Professional cleaning is standard in the UK and repainting is also standard on the continent. Always paid for by the tenant.

You know this for a fact do you? I've rented three different places here in Finland and have never had them cleaned or painted professionally. I handed in the keys knowing that I cleaned up as well as I could and have always got my deposit back in full.

Where are your facts?

Solair

To be fair though, you should probably have repainted / offered to have the wall repainted where the large lumps of paint came off. Sticking things to the wall wouldn't really be normal damage caused by wear and tear.

Retaining the whole deposit would be unreasonable though, it's unlikely to be that expensive to paint.

the world wonders

Mr.Wemmick wrote: »

Mostly because I have real problems with a deposit being in the hands of a landlord who most likely will want to keep it (if all the threads on boards are anything to go by)

You shouldn't really judge landlords in general based on this forum, remember that people only start threads here when they are asking for help with a problem so it is a very biased sample.

Maybe I have been lucky but I have never paid for repainting or professional cleaning and never had problems getting my entire deposit back. I would not use the deposit as last month's rent unless I had specific grounds to believe that the landlord would try to keep it illegally. Recommending that tenants do that in all circumstances isn't really fair to the good landlords out there.

Solair wrote:

To be fair though, you should probably have repainted / offered to have the wall repainted where the large lumps of paint came off. Sticking things to the wall wouldn't really be normal damage caused by wear and tear.

Agreed, the OP may have to give some ground on this one.

TheBigKahuna

Just had a meeting with the landlord. Offered to repair everything and clean the property again, to her standard, and she refused my offer. I got a guided tour of the property where she claimed all sorts, including that we liked to live in filth and that we weren't living there for the past 2 weeks, which we were. Anyway, i'll be discussing on options with Threshold on Monday. It's not so much the money, it's the aggressive attitude she's taken. I was more than happy,and stated this several times, that I was happy to come to an amicable agreement regarding the property,but she refused each time and gave me no opportunity to rebuff anything she said. I tried. I'll be trying to come to an agreement once more, in writing, but if she's not willing to participate in a logical, reasonable conversation then I don't hold out much hope. I've had 2 great landlords in the past who would happily vouch for me as a tenant, it's unfortunate that I was unlucky this time, there are many great landlords out there and I understand that everybody has their own side to a story but it's poor attitudes like this that give landlords a bad rap, and I wish it wasn't so.

delthedriver

TheBigKahuna wrote: »

If that's the case, then every property, however the condition, would have to be professionally cleaned and repainted. If that's the case, then it should be clearly stated beforehand that the landlord will be taking money from your deposit regardless. If no reasonable wear and tear is allowed for, then the whole point of a security deposit is negated. All that aside, this is more of a last straw, than a breaking point. The last 2 months have put my fiancée and I under huge stress as the threat of eviction before Christmas was worrying enough without us being left short of money now because the, in the landlords opinion, the property wasn't clean enough. I took photos before I left and I would dare anyone to find dirt in it.

Why was the landlady threatening you with eviction before Christmas? Am I missing something here. Is there another issue going on in the background?