crossing the line!!!!

ed06

can principals ring other principals to know if you have cited them as a referee on your c.v.? is it not up to you to decide who you list as a referee? is there protocalls about crossing such a line? do principals have permission to enquire about other forms of employment you may have if you are only working part time in a school?

TheDriver

principals ring other principals about lots of things off the record, its how we ensure we know whats happening on the ground and the real truth about prospective teachers. I think people should have the courtesy to ask me first prior to putting me on as a referee.
Regarding other employment, yes and no. maybe your working 80hour week and falling asleep in the classroom. Maybe you are a stripper in a club where parents of your kids might go, maybe your doing grinds for kids from the school yet not performing well in the school. Its a very open ended question to be honest but principal can make plenty of enquiries as long as for a genuine reason.

My only concern with your post is your line about you deciding who you list as referee, indeed you are correct but you should always ask first.
Why don't you tell us your beef?

seavill

I'm a little confused by your post to be honest.

Am I right in saying a principal you had a number of years ago rang your current employer out of no where (I can't figure out how they knew where you were now working) to check had you them down as a reference?
Why would they care if you had them down or not seen as no one rang them to find anything out?
You say you are 6 months in the position so again what prompted the old principal to make this call?

The outside work you mention did you have it down on your CV or mention it in the interview or was it something the principal found out about by accident since you gaining the job?

spurious

I vaguely remember something in my original contract about informing the VEC if I was taking up other work.
It's a long time ago now, but somewhere a bell is ringing.

ed06

yeah i am aware of this appearing in the contract. the box was not ticked at the signing of this years contract so..... ususally the principal tells me what boxes to tick when signing. i was not asked to tick it when signing this year and also i sought permission of the bom at the onset of the school year.

evolving_doors

As regards other forms of employment outside school hours...Wasn;t there some vague open ended reference to not taking up other work outside school hours in the New Teaching Council codes of conduct? ok just found it there now I think...

2.5. avoid conflict between their professional
work and private interests which could
reasonably be deemed to impact negatively on
pupils/students.

Not too sure of the OP's beef either reading that post again, i think it's up to the referee to decide whether or not their name goes down on your CV..And if they do give you the go ahead then I presume it's standard procedure to check out a persons references by making a phone call!

Miss Lockhart

I find your posts difficult to follow so I'm not sure what has happened.

If you listed a principal as a referee without their consent then they have every right to be annoyed. How or why this was discovered so long after you got the job I don't really know.

If it's that your current principal contacted another principal they know you worked for, but did not list as a referee, then I don't think you can do anything about employers using their contacts informally to ensure they get the best person for the job. Again, why the contact was made so long after you got the job, I don't know.

Regarding work outside school, I'm surprised it wasn't covered in your contract. I think the principal has every right to enquire about it though to ensure there is no conflict of interest. It's covered by TC regulations now also.

Chilli Con Kearney

I too find this difficult too follow. Can you explain again?

On the subject of extra work, there are many teachers up and down the country working second jobs. The teaching council, management bodies, etc. can say what they want about this but the reality is that if you only have a few hours per week, you need further income to keep your household afloat, pay bills, child care, etc.

ed06

i am a secondary school teacher who has gained employment in two different schools. at the onset of the school yr i asked the bom if i could seek additional employment in another school if the opportunity arose. i was successful in gaining additional hours. very minimal may i add. i never informed my principal of the name/location of the other school as i did not feel t would be fair on either sets of students. the department have no problem with me doing this and they say its a regular thing! my principal recently found out the location of the other school and contacted that principal in relation to the hours worked and if i cited them as a referee. i never received a written contract from my principal this yr nor did i tick the box on the dept reappointment form stating that i would inform my employer if engaging in additional work. clearly the hours do not overlap and it in know way interferes with work in either of the two schools

seavill

ed06 wrote: »

i am a secondary school teacher who has gained employment in two different schools. at the onset of the school yr i asked the bom if i could seek additional employment in another school if the opportunity arose. i was successful in gaining additional hours. very minimal may i add. i never informed my principal of the name/location of the other school as i did not feel t would be fair on either sets of students. the department have no problem with me doing this and they say its a regular thing! my principal recently found out the location of the other school and contacted that principal in relation to the hours worked and if i cited them as a referee. i never received a written contract from my principal this yr nor did i tick the box on the dept reappointment form stating that i would inform my employer if engaging in additional work. clearly the hours do not overlap and it in know way interferes with work in either of the two schools

I asked you this previously but you did not answer. In what respect do you not feel it would be fair on either set of students if your principal knew where you were working?
As you and others have said it is common place. In the VEC system the VEC would appoint people to different locations within one contract. I got a contract in the past for 22 hours split between 3 locations.

ed06

2.5. avoid conflict between their professional
work and private interests which could
reasonably be deemed to impact negatively on
pupils/students.

As was stated above i dont think it would be fair on both sets of students to know what schools I am teaching in...... they or parents may fear that i am showing commitment to other sets of students.

seavill

ed06 wrote: »

2.5. avoid conflict between their professional
work and private interests which could
reasonably be deemed to impact negatively on
pupils/students.

As was stated above i dont think it would be fair on both sets of students to know what schools I am teaching in...... they or parents may fear that i am showing commitment to other sets of students.

I think you are reading into this in a way that suits you. It clearly says professional v private interests.

Both your interests are professional here. And as discussed it is very common place.

Whatever about keeping this information from the kids and parents there is no excuse for keeping it from the principal. Ticking a box or not ticking a box on a contract is nit picking. You decided to decieve, in a way, your principal and now are upset that he wanted to check out what was going on.
As I said to you previously if you had been open and honest with him none of this would have taken place.

Chris68

Last year I worked for a VEC, the DES, the SEC, a university, a mock exam company, and privately for a school. I didn't tell them about each other. Should I have? Just because one place gives us a few hours work are we supposed to turn everything else down? Between the lot of them, I still wasn't employed enough to stop my dole payments. The dole office and the tax office knew about them all by the way. I also gave private grinds (unpaid) which I told no-one about.

TheDriver

thats the extreme but we are talking about people who might be doing work that conflicts with their own job e.g. spending all day preparing grinds and not teaching to the best of their ability and then giving grinds at night to possibly the same kids. I have known some teachers who did that and it covers those situations. Obviously theres no bother in 99% of the cases.

Fizzical

TheDriver wrote: »

thats the extreme but we are talking about people who might be doing work that conflicts with their own job e.g. spending all day preparing grinds and not teaching to the best of their ability and then giving grinds at night to possibly the same kids. I have known some teachers who did that and it covers those situations. Obviously theres no bother in 99% of the cases.

This makes me uncomfortable. I'm not sure if I can express why but I'll try.

How does preparing grinds or giving grinds conflict with your job? Surely it could actually help your teaching in that you have plenty of notes already prepared and you have extra experience in your subject.

Very many students attend grinds. If they choose the same teacher to go to, they must think that teacher is worth paying money for. Why does that annoy you?

You're taking for granted that the reason the person is not teaching to the best of their ability is that they are 'spending all days preparing grinds'. The person may not be teaching well because they are not a good teacher in the first place. They may not be teaching well because they are exhausted looking after family members or working in the local shop. They may be angry at the extra-curricular work they are expected to do for nothing or simply be exhausted by having to do two jobs because their teaching pay is not enough to live on. There are many reasons that people don't teach well at any point.

It sounds like the reason you don't think they were teaching well is because you found out they were giving grinds which you don't think is appropriate.

Maybe I'm wrong and what you say is correct. But it doesn't sound like a good enough reason to pry into someone else's outside life. If they're not up to the job on hand, deal with that.

gaeilgebeo

Fizzical wrote: »

Very many students attend grinds. If they choose the same teacher to go to, they must think that teacher is worth paying money for. Why does that annoy you?

I agree with most of your post, bar the above.
I think it is highly unethical to give your own students grinds, on so many levels!

Fizzical

gaeilgebeo wrote: »

I agree with most of your post, bar the above.
I think it is highly unethical to give your own students grinds, on so many levels!

Not saying it is ethical.

It just seems to give the lie to the idea that the teacher wasn't too good in class. That perhaps it was the annoyance of this happening that was the problem all the time, rather than that the giving of grinds actually impaired the teacher's performance.

I can't see why giving grinds is a conflict between professional work and private interests which could reasonably be deemed to impact negatively on pupils/students. It seems to me that a broad interpretation is being used as a charter to interfere unreasonably in a teacher's effort to earn a living, rather than dealing directly with any perceived issue with the teacher's teaching.

Powerhouse

Fizzical wrote: »

I can't see why giving grinds is a conflict between professional work and private interests which could reasonably be deemed to impact negatively on pupils/students.

Because if a teacher potentially stands to benefit privately from specific students needing grinds it could be interpreted as compromising their performance in the regular classroom regarding such students.

Theoretically it could create a situation where the teacher has an interest in the student maybe not doing so well in class. That's why it's unethical. Rather obvious really.

Obviously we'd all argue that we'd never think like that but that's beside the point. Objectively speaking, a potential conflict of interest is created.

TheDriver

in the vast majority of cases, grinds are a seperate enterprise with no interaction between the 2. However I know of 2 teachers in my experience who would let a class idle in their room while they were outside photocopying their grinds materials and we're not talking once off. These type of things are not acceptable.

I think it also goes down the road of e.g. teacher also being educational psychologist hence conflict of interest or other things similar.

rainbowtrout

Fizzical wrote: »

Not saying it is ethical.

It just seems to give the lie to the idea that the teacher wasn't too good in class. That perhaps it was the annoyance of this happening that was the problem all the time, rather than that the giving of grinds actually impaired the teacher's performance.

I can't see why giving grinds is a conflict between professional work and private interests which could reasonably be deemed to impact negatively on pupils/students. It seems to me that a broad interpretation is being used as a charter to interfere unreasonably in a teacher's effort to earn a living, rather than dealing directly with any perceived issue with the teacher's teaching.

I agree with TheDriver. Most teachers giving grinds don't let it impact on their work in the classroom, but if they are using their spare time at school to prepare resources and notes etc for grinds that evening and then just making a half assed effort at teaching the classes they are contracted to teach, then it does effect their job.

Also if they have a child in their class and then they start taking that child for grinds for the same subject, that also shouldn't happen. I've had students in my class on the odd occasion who need a bit of extra help and don't get resource etc, so I would take that child on a one to one basis at lunch or after school to give them that extra time. Never in a million years would I charge them for it.

It doesn't have to be just grinds type work either. I knew a teacher who was running a pub with their partner, things started to go wrong and they ended up having to do the evening shifts. So it was all day at school, home and then pub until closing and clean up. Things came to a head after a while because they were so tired from pulling late night shifts in the pub and then coming to school that the teacher slept in until lunch and didn't turn up for work one day. So outside work did impact on their job. That was a temporary situation, but it was impacting students as the teacher was late a couple of mornings for classes and in this instance missed a day.

Fizzical

rainbowtrout wrote: »

I agree with TheDriver. Most teachers giving grinds don't let it impact on their work in the classroom, but if they are using their spare time at school to prepare resources and notes etc for grinds that evening and then just making a half assed effort at teaching the classes they are contracted to teach, then it does effect their job.

As you say, giving grinds does not conflict with teaching. It is the wasting of class time that is the problem. This is what should be dealt with.

Also if they have a child in their class and then they start taking that child for grinds for the same subject, that also shouldn't happen. I've had students in my class on the odd occasion who need a bit of extra help and don't get resource etc, so I would take that child on a one to one basis at lunch or after school to give them that extra time. Never in a million years would I charge them for it.

That the teacher is giving grinds to their own students was purely hypothetical, thrown in to support the argument.

It doesn't have to be just grinds type work either. I knew a teacher who was running a pub with their partner, things started to go wrong and they ended up having to do the evening shifts. So it was all day at school, home and then pub until closing and clean up. Things came to a head after a while because they were so tired from pulling late night shifts in the pub and then coming to school that the teacher slept in until lunch and didn't turn up for work one day. So outside work did impact on their job. That was a temporary situation, but it was impacting students as the teacher was late a couple of mornings for classes and in this instance missed a day.

This is true for any family crisis, and is even true when a teacher is just sick. Many things can impact negatively on a teacher's job - including school issues outside the teacher's control.

None of the above is just cause for the surreptitious 'investigating' of a teacher.

Some outside jobs could of course conflict with teaching due to their very nature, I'm not arguing with that. But I think sometimes that Principals get so caught up in the 'rightness' of their cause that they lose sight of the respect and privacy due to those working in their schools.

rainbowtrout

Fizzical wrote: »

As you say, giving grinds does not conflict with teaching. It is the wasting of class time that is the problem. This is what should be dealt with.

It does conflict with teaching when the teacher is bringing their grinds work into school and not doing the work they are paid to do.

If that teacher cannot prepare for grinds in their own time outside of school hours then they shouldn't be doing grinds, as it is impacting on their job.

Godge

People forgets sometimes that employers have rights, duties and obligations too.

In the case of outside employment this may arise in a number of respects:

- Working Time Act restrictions on the number of hours worked: an employer is required by law to make sure that any part-time workers they have do not go over the maximum working week/year through their work with them. They would need to consult with other employers in order to do this
- Teaching contract: A full-time teaching contract is for 22 hours. If a principal becomes aware that one of their part-timers is also teaching in another school, s/he is fully within their rights to contact that school to make sure both sets of hours do not exceed 22.
- References: There is nothing wrong in an employer alerting another employer to an issue with an employee so long as it is true and factually accurate. A statement such as we had Joe Bloggs employed for a year and on 27 occasions he either arrived later for a class or failed to take a class without providing a reasonable excuse is a factually accurate fair statement. A statement such as Joe Bloggs is always late for class is not and would not be allowed. Because of the difficulties in staying on the right side of that line, it is actually very rare for something of that sort to happen.
- Grinds to own students: In the case of a student giving grinds to his own students, there may be an ethical and/or reputational issue for the school as well as the individual teacher (e.g. that school is so bad their own teachers charge for grinds for their students)
- Outside work and conflicts: Again a school is entitled to know. The judgment as to whether a particular outside activity/employment is in conflict with the teaching role is not one that can be solely left to the teacher. The school and/or the principal have the right to have a view on it as well.

Fizzical

Godge wrote: »

People forgets sometimes that employers have rights, duties and obligations too.

In the case of outside employment this may arise in a number of respects:

- Working Time Act restrictions on the number of hours worked: an employer is required by law to make sure that any part-time workers they have do not go over the maximum working week/year through their work with them. They would need to consult with other employers in order to do this
- Teaching contract: A full-time teaching contract is for 22 hours. If a principal becomes aware that one of their part-timers is also teaching in another school, s/he is fully within their rights to contact that school to make sure both sets of hours do not exceed 22.
- References: There is nothing wrong in an employer alerting another employer to an issue with an employee so long as it is true and factually accurate. A statement such as we had Joe Bloggs employed for a year and on 27 occasions he either arrived later for a class or failed to take a class without providing a reasonable excuse is a factually accurate fair statement. A statement such as Joe Bloggs is always late for class is not and would not be allowed. Because of the difficulties in staying on the right side of that line, it is actually very rare for something of that sort to happen.
- Grinds to own students: In the case of a student giving grinds to his own students, there may be an ethical and/or reputational issue for the school as well as the individual teacher (e.g. that school is so bad their own teachers charge for grinds for their students)
- Outside work and conflicts: Again a school is entitled to know. The judgment as to whether a particular outside activity/employment is in conflict with the teaching role is not one that can be solely left to the teacher. The school and/or the principal have the right to have a view on it as well.

Interesting.

Working Time Act and Teaching Contracts: From a layman's reading of info about the Act, it would seem that the obligation is to ensure that the aggregate working time does not exceed 48 hours per week, on average. I don't think someone teaching in two schools could possibly exceed 48 hours per week - are teachers in a separate category, perhaps?

References: these weren't in question here. I don't think anyone has an issue with a prospective employer checking out referees quoted on a CV.

Grinds to own students: This is a red herring. The objection raised was to a teacher's lack of effort in the classroom and misuse of school resources. This should have been dealt with directly.

Outside work and conflicts? This is the grey area, I think.

Again a school is entitled to know. The judgment as to whether a particular outside activity/employment is in conflict with the teaching role is not one that can be solely left to the teacher. The school and/or the principal have the right to have a view on it as well.

Do you mean a moral right or a legal right? If a legal right, please quote sources so I can understand. As a permanent employee, I may not be aware of the hoops part-timers have to jump through in order to get employment. If I started my own business in addition to my teaching, would I have to get permission from my Principal?

A teacher has a duty to avoid conflict between their professional work and private interests which could reasonably be deemed to impact negatively on pupils/students and of course a school has a right and a duty to object to such. It seems to me that the OP felt that the Principal in question was over stepping the mark without adequate cause.

seavill

Fizzical wrote: »

It seems to me that the OP felt that the Principal in question was over stepping the mark without adequate cause.

This is what it is alright but most that have posted here have felt that the Principal was correct, to a certain extent. The OP initially gave me extra information through PM which reaffirmed my feelings. I won't share any of that extra information as I feel that would not be the right thing to do.

From this thread it can be seen that the OP got extra hours teaching in another school. They have claimed that they did not tell the first school as it would not be fair on the kids but I certainly don't understand this phrase. I can't see how telling the principal of the extra hours in another school has a negative impact on the students. The OP has avoided answering this question a few times including through PM. As a result I feel this is how they justified it in their own head but in reality does not actually believe it themselves.

The OP got permission to seek further hours and I have not met one principal that would be against this once they did not clash, but again I fail to see the logic after getting permission to not tell once they had gained the extra hours.

Although the OP was technically not lying to the principal they certainly were not being honest with them. If I were the principal I would be questioning in my own head why was this person not telling me about the other job. I would also consider the fact that should I ask them I would more than likely not get a fully honest answer.

Having it be the case that your employer feels they cannot trust you anymore is not a good situation particularly should you ever be looking for extra hours or a full job in that school. We have all read threads here or had friends where a principal did not tell a teacher that there was going to be no hours fr them next year until very late in the day and I think we would all be in agreement that this is no way to treat a teacher, again not technically lying to them but certainly not being honest with them. I would say this is a similar scenario in reverse.

Fizzical

Seavill, I agree that the original post didn't hold water. I can't see any reason why they would withhold the information. Neither do I understand why the Principal would ask the other school if they were quoted as a referee. There is obviously more to the story than was given.

My reservations were to do with The Driver's post and the general reasoning that a Principal is entitled to whatever info they want, whatever way they feel inclined to get it by virtue of their knowing best. A Principal's duty of care to students does not lessen whatever rights a teacher has to privacy and respect.

Godge

Fizzical wrote: »

Seavill, I agree that the original post didn't hold water. I can't see any reason why they would withhold the information. Neither do I understand why the Principal would ask the other school if they were quoted as a referee. There is obviously more to the story than was given.

My reservations were to do with The Driver's post and the general reasoning that a Principal is entitled to whatever info they want, whatever way they feel inclined to get it by virtue of their knowing best. A Principal's duty of care to students does not lessen whatever rights a teacher has to privacy and respect.

A teachers rights to privacy and respect are restricted by his duties and responsibilities to his employer.

It is the same with respect to every right. The right to life which is the most basic right is restricted in a number of countries by state laws on execution for certain crimes.

Rights conflict, they are also constrained by responsibility. In an employment contract arrangement that is also true.

For example a teachers right to privacy is restricted by Garda screening.

This thread is a good example of how finding the balance between the differing rights is a difficult exercise.