Atheist church

iMyself

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/feb/03/atheist-church-sunday-assembly-islington

Following on from my previous disgust at how atheism is becoming a godless religion. This takes the biscuit.

Corkfeen

Three hundred people meet and it becomes a large-scale church of atheism? Personally I'd prefer to go to a TED talk.

Dades

Whatever floats your boat. Sounds like a bit of craic, but not something I'd be arsed with.

Points that should be noted:

• It's not a church
• The people that turn up are not part a congregation (in the implied meaning of the word...)
• And, no, atheism is not a religion.

kylith

Oh please, if you're going to call a meeting a 'church' then the annual Agricultural Show is a Food Church, and a book club is a Literary Church.

Corkfeen

Dades wrote: »

Whatever floats your boat. Sounds like a bit of craic, but not something I'd be arsed with.

Points that should be noted:

• It's not a church
• The people that turn up are not part a congregation (in the implied meaning of the word...)
• And, no, atheism is not a religion.

It does genuinely sound like a slightly modified version of a TED talk. With some Stevie Wonder thrown in for good measure......

iMyself

As described by one of the organisers:

a godless congregation that meets … to hear great talks, sing songs and generally celebrate life

I would go to a carol service or a friend's wedding, and there would be so much about it that I really liked – the togetherness, the rituals – but I just couldn't get past the God bit.

He is setting out to recreate many aspects of the church, but without the God.

I wouldn't compare this to TED. TED lecturers are talking about a specific expertise, sharing their knowledge in much the same way as a university lecture.

Geomy

Sounds ok some people like get togethers,more people like being solitary.

As long as it doesn't turn into an us vs them situation...

Galvasean

Run by two comedians? Free comedy show eh?

magicbastarder

here's a non-atheist church, but they know how to pick their saints.

http://www.coltranechurch.org/

iMyself

Dades wrote: »

• The people that turn up are not part a congregation (in the implied meaning of the word...)

Why so? That is exactly what it is surely?

Dades wrote: »

• And, no, atheism is not a religion.

The definition of religion does not necessarily involve belief in a supernatural creator, although I totally agree that that would be the common definition.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/religion

a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.


a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion.


the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices: a world council of religions.

I've already debated the "moral code governing the conduct of human affairs" aspect as being set out by Atheist Ireland, but this most definitely takes it to another level.

Delirium

the definition you quoted starts with "a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe". Atheism doesn't meet that definition, so how can it be a religion?

pH

iMyself wrote: »

As described by one of the organisers:





He is setting out to recreate many aspects of the church, but without the God.

I wouldn't compare this to TED. TED lecturers are talking about a specific expertise, sharing their knowledge in much the same way as a university lecture.

Just to be clear here.

They don't don't have lectures about a specific expertise so it definitely isn't a TED talk, and they don't worship a God but is definitely is a church.

Bannasidhe

pH wrote: »

Just to be clear here.

They don't don't have lectures about a specific expertise so it definitely isn't a TED talk, and they don't worship a God but is definitely is a church.

If they sell food and beverages does that make it a cafe?

iMyself

koth wrote: »

the definition you quoted starts with "a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe". Atheism doesn't meet that definition, so how can it be a religion?

yes I agree with you, it doesn't. The point is there are people and organisations out there which are using atheism as a label for their own organisations to the extent where atheism has become more than simply a lack of belief in deities, to something which has a belief structure, predefined morals and now it seems weekly congregations.

seamus

Sounds like a bunch of smelly hippies to me.

This kind of thing has been going on for years, I'm not sure why it's now suddenly gained an "atheist" tag to make it appear like something it's not.

Why so? That is exactly what it is surely?

"Congregations" typically congregate to worship. There is no worship in this group, only celebration, so this is not a congregation. It also implies some form of common link through the group. Which there doesn't seem to be here. No more than the people who go to Starbucks are a congregation.

Bannasidhe

iMyself wrote: »

yes I agree with you, it doesn't. The point is there are people and organisations out there which are using atheism as a label for their own organisations to the extent where atheism has become more than simply a lack of belief in deities, to something which has a belief structure, predefined morals and now it seems weekly congregations.

Or they are taking the Michael...or it's a PR stunt...

I could refer to my house as a Palace - that won't make it one. It will still be a 3 bed end of terrace.

iMyself

pH wrote: »

Just to be clear here.

They don't don't have lectures about a specific expertise so it definitely isn't a TED talk, and they don't worship a God but is definitely is a church.

No I wouldn't call it a church because my understanding is that a church is a religious place of worship. Although the article does describe it as "part atheist church". There is no denying, and I'm surprised (or maybe I shouldn't really be going by past debates on here) that people cannot see the similarity between this congregational gathering and a church.

Even so, the fact that you have a lack of belief in something somehow gives you a common belief, a common anything at all, to the extent where you can congregate with fellow no believers is pushing it a bit far.

Knasher

iMyself wrote: »

Even so, the fact that you have a lack of belief in something somehow gives you a common belief, a common anything at all, to the extent where you can congregate with fellow no believers is pushing it a bit far.

For some people their entire social circle might revolve around their church, not so much in the RCC in Ireland, but to a huge extent in America and possible in the UK but to a lesser extent. So it isn't surprising that people might try to preserve that part of their lives in some way, when they are abandoning the rest of their faith. I don't understand why this bothers you. If they want to call it a church, either as a bit of humor or in all seriousness, it doesn't make atheism a religion.

Frank Bullitt

Is an Atheist Church not just a pub?

Sarky

Sometimes it's a café, or a LAN party.

Cork boy 55

Atheists need to seize the oriental mystery cults buildings after the awakening
and turn them into community centers of environmental scientific atheist

Earth-labs where earth citizens can gather and build their communities in a sustainable fashion.

Sarky

Sure thing. But only after this awakening. And you go first.

Nodin

Cork boy 55 wrote: »

Atheists need to seize the oriental mystery cults buildings after the awakening
and turn them into community centers of environmental scientific atheist

Earth-labs where earth citizens can gather and build their communities in a sustainable fashion.

Why do you post this crap again?

Zombrex

I really don't get the current trend, which seems mostly to be coming out of England, of needing to use religious terms to describe atheist events which are completely non-religious. So we had that 10 Commandements for Atheists thing, and then the atheist religion book, and now this atheist church.

I can only assume it is atheists who haven't fully worked out that atheism is a religion in the way not collecting stamps is a hobby. When my softball team meet and play a game we don't refer to it as "stamp collecting without the stamps".

Zombrex

Cork boy 55 wrote: »

Atheists need to seize the oriental mystery cults buildings after the awakening

That doesn't make any sense. After the awakening everyone will be an atheist, so why would we need to seize anything.

iMyself

Knasher wrote: »

For some people their entire social circle might revolve around their church, not so much in the RCC in Ireland, but to a huge extent in America and possible in the UK but to a lesser extent. So it isn't surprising that people might try to preserve that part of their lives in some way, when they are abandoning the rest of their faith. I don't understand why this bothers you. If they want to call it a church, either as a bit of humor or in all seriousness, it doesn't make atheism a religion.

It bothers me because by declaring myself atheist as a way of describing my lack of belief in deities, for some (and it is fast becoming popular opinion) I am automatically categorised as belonging to part of a belief system. I agree, this is in their opinion and not mine, but you eventually get to the stage where atheism means something else and it is in fact your own definition which is wrong, so you are no longer an atheist. This is what I have already been told by people on here. This is not a secular society because if you don't play along and join the "atheist church", then you're back to square one where you are excluded because you do not fit in any of the pigeon holes.

for example, the census listing all the religions and then "atheist" as alternative system rather than a "none of the above".

Rev Hellfire

iMyself wrote: »

you eventually get to the stage where atheism means something else and it is in fact your own definition which is wrong, so you are no longer an atheist. This is what I have already been told by people on here.

Where have people on this forum ever said that atheism is anything more than a non-belief in deities? As a group they've been less than receptive to ideas like athiesm+ or other attempts to tack on additional requirements.

iMyself wrote: »

for example, the census listing all the religions and then "atheist" as alternative system rather than a "none of the above".

Atheists are a statistically significant group it doesn't make sense to group them into a "none of the above" which would also include a myriad of other religious cults and belief groups.

Just Like Heaven

iMyself wrote: »

for example, the census listing all the religions and then "atheist" as alternative system rather than a "none of the above".

"None" perhaps, but "none of the above" doesn't necessarily mean atheism.

wench

iMyself wrote: »

for example, the census listing all the religions and then "atheist" as alternative system rather than a "none of the above".

The census question actually listed several religions, then a write in box, then "no religion".
Where "Atheist" was given as a religion, it was a voluntary write in answer.

pH

wench wrote: »

The census question actually listed several religions, then a write in box, then "no religion".
Where "Atheist" was given as a religion, it was a voluntary write in answer.

iMyself is raging against thoughts which might be in other people's heads and imaginary census questions!

PopePalpatine

Cork boy 55 wrote: »

Atheists need to seize the oriental mystery cults buildings after the awakening
and turn them into community centers of environmental scientific atheist

Earth-labs where earth citizens can gather and build their communities in a sustainable fashion.

Can I have some of what you're smoking? :pac:

Penn

iMyself wrote: »

yes I agree with you, it doesn't. The point is there are people and organisations out there which are using atheism as a label for their own organisations to the extent where atheism has become more than simply a lack of belief in deities, to something which has a belief structure, predefined morals and now it seems weekly congregations.

But that's your own perception of it, not fact. Atheism is the lack of belief in a god or gods. That's all. Any type of gathering of people who come together to listen to people talk about atheism doesn't make doing so a part of atheism, it's simply something they chose to do. And they're not being told what to believe as part of their atheism so they're not being preached to. They're just listening to people talk about atheism.

Atheism does not have a belief structure, predefined morals or weekly congregations. Atheists generally (but definitely not always) believe a lot of the same things (but to varying degrees and are not told to believe one thing over another), generally (but definitely not always) have similar morals (by their own standards and not one rigid set of morals we are told to have) and more than 100 atheists in a room doesn't constitute a congregation, it constitutes a party (definitely and always)!

Doctor Strange

PopePalpatine wrote: »

Can I have some of what you're smoking? :pac:

Asked him before. Apparently he doesn't smoke anything since his "awakening".

Michael Nugent

Zombrex wrote: »

I really don't get the current trend, which seems mostly to be coming out of England, of needing to use religious terms to describe atheist events which are completely non-religious. So we had that 10 Commandements for Atheists thing, and then the atheist religion book, and now this atheist church.

It's quite a dangerous trend, because it is (at times explicitly) based on the idea that religions may not be true but they do good things and, as Alain de Botton puts it, atheists should steal those good ideas and implement them ourselves.

The difficulty with this view is that it suggests that the good things are inherently religious attributes rather than universal human attributes. When atheists meditate, or enjoy art, or behave ethically, or gather together to pursue shared aims, we are doing so as humans behaving naturally and not as people copying religion.

It also implies that atheists do not already do these things.

Zombrex wrote: »

I can only assume it is atheists who haven't fully worked out that atheism is a religion in the way not collecting stamps is a hobby. When my softball team meet and play a game we don't refer to it as "stamp collecting without the stamps".

There are a number of other possible explanations. It could be insecurity, comfort, pragmatism or marketing.

magicbastarder

Cork boy 55 wrote: »

Atheists need to seize the oriental mystery cults buildings after the awakening
and turn them into community centers of environmental scientific atheist

Earth-labs where earth citizens can gather and build their communities in a sustainable fashion.

atheists really need to build an afterlife into their worldview.

Bannasidhe

magicbastarder wrote: »

atheists really need to build an afterlife into their worldview.

Why?

Personally I'm hoping for Valhalla but reckon it's a forlorn hope...

(note use of word 'hope' not 'belief'.)

magicbastarder

people dig afterlives. be it being reincarnated as a shrew, or some sort of eternal strangely chaste orgy, it seems to be the done thing.

Bannasidhe

magicbastarder wrote: »

people dig afterlives. be it being reincarnated as a shrew, or some sort of eternal strangely chaste orgy, it seems to be the done thing.

'atheists really need to build an afterlife into their worldview...[because]...people dig afterlives.'

What?

magicbastarder

never mind me, i'm just rambling.

Dades

Michael Nugent wrote: »

It's quite a dangerous trend, because it is (at times explicitly) based on the idea that religions may not be true but they do good things and, as Alain de Botton puts it, atheists should steal those good ideas and implement them ourselves.

I heard you on Newstalk the other night talking with Hookie about him. Missed the very start and was convinced it wasn't you for most of it as I was agreeing with everything you were saying.
Good interview, I thought.

Also I thought George gave you more honest debate than other interviewers with more fixed views. George, from what I've gathered listening to his show seems somewhat of an agnostic/deist though perhaps culturally catholic.

Zombrex

magicbastarder wrote: »

atheists really need to build an afterlife into their worldview.

And a god. I never really like the absence of a god in atheist thinking

Cork boy 55

magicbastarder wrote: »

atheists really need to build an afterlife into their worldview.

the League of Awakened Scientific Environmental atheists already have a "afterlife" system
It is called Promession and involves treating a body turning into dry powder in a biodegradable casket and turning into compost
This compost will be placed under a designated sampling in a designated Forest grave park. Thus your nutrients will leave on in the Forest live cycle.
And your Kin will be able visit the tree as it grows.

This will all be explained in the earth-labs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIwEf8J2b34

Cork boy 55

Zombrex wrote: »

That doesn't make any sense. After the awakening everyone will be an atheist, so why would we need to seize anything.

Because if we (the community) don't occupy the buildings the bourgeoisie will acquire them and sell/loot them for profit.

Bannasidhe

Cork boy 55 wrote: »

the League of Awakened Scientific Environmental atheists already have a "afterlife" system
It is called Promession and involves treating a body turning into dry powder in a biodegradable casket and turning into compost
This compost will be placed under a designated sampling in a designated Forest grave park. Thus your nutrients will leave on in the Forest live cycle.
And your Kin will be able visit the tree as it grows.

This will all be explained in the earth-labs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIwEf8J2b34

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9IKVj4l5GU4

Sarky

This Awakening stuff sounds a little bit, uh, dogmatic, tbh. I think I'll be fine just going about my life without a belief in gods, thanks.

Doctor Strange

Cork boy 55 wrote: »

Because if we (the community) don't occupy the buildings the bourgeoisie will acquire them and sell/loot them for profit.

Just Like Heaven

This actually seems to have taken off a bit http://news.discovery.com/human/life/atheist-church-set-to-go-global-130308.htm

LadyMayBelle

Resurrecting :rolleyes:this thread as I went to The Sunday Assembly in June and have gone to one of their 'small groups' too. It's down the road from me so I thought why not have a looksee and report back.

Over 600 people showed up for the service in June, which has some singing, some comedy, a guy from Action for Happiness giving a talk, someone from a local charity saying what they do, a reflection, biscuits and tea if you wanted it. Next month the topic is 'Stargazing'.

The small group (smoup!) is a pilot idea where a bunch of people meet up and test run how small groups might work; there is usually a topic (what makes you happy/inspiration/etc) and some discussion, plus you set yourself goals or tasks and the rest of the group support you. It was actually pretty fun and nice way to make friends. Once again food was involved.

It's all very, very new and they're testing the waters, but I see that the organsier guy is travelling in the States and Oz encouraging the setting up of other Sunday Assemblies.

kylith

I still just can't get my head around this idea. If I'd wanted to feel obligated to go to a meeting every week and talk about what X means to me I'd have stayed in the RCC. I just don't get the point of it. Why would I want to set myself tasks that I have to report back on? Wouldn't I be better off joining a group for said tasks instead? What kind of tasks are they, even?

I really don't feel the need to have to belong to a group in order to be an atheist, and I am concerned that if this kind of thing continues then it's going to get to the place where atheism does become some sort of quasi church where it becomes expected to go to these meetings. Not to mention that the fact that it's known as a 'church' and has regular meetings will just give fuel to the 'See, Atheism is a religion' claimants.

I guess that, for me, it just goes over the line of 'people getting together, who just happen to be atheists' and into 'atheists getting together for the sole purpose of being atheist' which seems kind of redundant.

Pherekydes

Sunday 'church' meetings? No thanks.

Sundays are for lazing in bed, drinking and watching your favourite sport, either live or on telly. I've already wasted too much of my life going to church on Sundays.

Edmond_Dantes

Sundays are always tough , tuesday evenings??