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Robin Van Persie - Is it time to sell?
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I would think Aguero is the most obvious replacement, at least that's who I'm pinning my hopes on. It's a risk but I can see him matching Van Persie's output from here on in. He's likely to play almost non stop in the league, YaYa is back which will improve them immeasurably and they need to win every game, even if Van Persie outscores him by 15 or 20 points I'll be happy enough considering the price difference and the assumption that I'll have improved the rest of my team.0
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Swiper the fox wrote: »I would think Aguero is the most obvious replacement, at least that's who I'm pinning my hopes on. It's a risk but I can see him matching Van Persie's output from here on in. He's likely to play almost non stop in the league, YaYa is back which will improve them immeasurably and they need to win every game, even if Van Persie outscores him by 15 or 20 points I'll be happy enough considering the price difference and the assumption that I'll have improved the rest of my team.
Only problem is that it could be risky going without any United attacking options. United midfield offer absolutely nothing FF wise this season. Everyone is a complete risk. So the only viable options are Rooney and RVP. Aguero is a player i'll be looking to get in. But if i was to get rid of RVP it would be for another viable United attacker.0 -
El Horseboxo wrote: »Only problem is that it could be risky going without any United attacking options. United midfield offer absolutely nothing FF wise this season. Everyone is a complete risk. So the only viable options are Rooney and RVP. Aguero is a player i'll be looking to get in. But if i was to get rid of RVP it would be for another viable United attacker.
All that matters is points at the end of the day, who gets most! I can't afford Van Persie any more because I'm prioritising midfield and need to strenghten defence. I think roryc was saying about this notion of having to have attacking cover for certain teams being total bunkum(apologies if it's not) and I'm inclined to agree, chances are city will at least equal United's point total and goals scored for the rest of the league, I'll have that because it costs me less, I'd like to get in utd defensive cover though because I think they could tighten up there, they seem to do so most years around this time.0 -
You said it happens elsewhere on "countless occasions". I asked for some examples other than stubborn Trap so I'd appreciate a reply to the question?
I wasn't talking about the German lads being dropped for competitive matches. You seem to have misunderstood my point. My point was that IMO, those three players, from the same club, wouldn't of missed the competitive matches next month becuse one of them had a sprained ankle and throat infection, another a viral infection and another a groin strain. No, its an important game so at least two of them IMO would have played through those life threatening "injuries".
Are you trying to say its not a problem that players pull out of internationals with phantom knocks? Its always been a known part and parcel of the international game IMO. You say medical evidence has to be provided. How exactly do you provide medical evidence of a strain? It doesn't show up on an x-ray.
The difference is I'm willing to admit its conjecture though. There are multiple reasons why RVP could of come off after a half last night. I fully admit it may have been because Fergie had asked and I did admit that above so I don't see where you get the statement "You've also made an assumption that nobody else would dare ask to have a player only play a half of football". Could you point out where I've said that in my posts? I'm well aware of gentleman's agreements between club and international managers.
So looking at the match report doesn't tell you that van Gaal was using an experimental side? That he rested most of his other established players? That there was a huge amount of subs from both sides in the second half? If you can't look at a match report and put a match in its context, then you're on the wrong forum here. For example, would you see it as a match been taken 100% seriously by the manager if he started only two players with more than 8 caps? I wouldn't.
Perhaps van Gaal did decide to go with that side because of requests from managers. But then again perhaps it was a meaningless international friendly and one of the only matches where he'll get to see new additions to his squad. It could be either and I'm willing to admit same.
Just like I'm willing to admit Fergie may have had a gentleman's agreement that RVP played only one half. I've never said otherwise despite what you seem to think. But for you to correlate that with Fergie being worried about his gametime in the manner you have is a step too far IMO.
I'm too busy to be digging up pages of examples of player falling out and/or down pecking orders. Are you really trying to imply that a lack of examples from me mean that this doesnt happen? Steven Fletchers fallout with the SFA/Levein is similar in ways to what happened with McCarthy, if you want more, try googling instead of sticking on blinkers and playing dumb.
As for the 'life threatening injuries' remark, :rolleyes:
Players are often asked to travel for assessment by NT doctors and sent home, do you need examples of this happening aswell?0 -
2007 2008 Mar 1 Fulham v utd . Rooney and ronaldo dropped to the bench
Mar 4 Utd v lyon last 16 of champs league
Interesting to note utd beat fulham to move within a point of Arsenal at the top of the league. Now they have a 9 pt gap and a tougher game against real
Apr 26 Chelsea v utd Ronaldo left on the bench it was a crucial game as chelsea won and went level on points with utd.
Apr 29 Utd v Barcelona Champs lge SF.
Same season they did play rooney and ronaldo 3 days before a CL qf against Roma.
2008 2009 Rooney ronaldo both start 3 days before last 16 game against inter
Later on in the campaign ronaldo doesnt start league games ahead of CL QF and CL SF. This was the season liverpool were few points back in the title race.
Its no exact science but I just cant see RVP getting any more than 160 mins in the next 3 league games.0 -
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Swiper the fox wrote: »All that matters is points at the end of the day, who gets most! I can't afford Van Persie any more because I'm prioritising midfield and need to strenghten defence. I think roryc was saying about this notion of having to have attacking cover for certain teams being total bunkum(apologies if it's not) and I'm inclined to agree, chances are city will at least equal United's point total and goals scored for the rest of the league, I'll have that because it costs me less, I'd like to get in utd defensive cover though because I think they could tighten up there, they seem to do so most years around this time.
I don't necessarily believe in cover myself. I'll go with a combo of form and fixtures. But Man United have 13 more goals than Man City and have looked more dangerous in front of goal. That's a fact based on statistics and observation that can't be ignored. Not having a striker from the team that's most likely to score goals based on their current ability to score goals is a safer option than a team that has looked wasteful and might potentially score goals based on past seasons form. Can't see United taking their foot off the pedal this season. Only distraction is cup competitions.0 -
I'm too busy to be digging up pages of examples of player falling out and/or down pecking orders. Are you really trying to imply that a lack of examples from me mean that this doesnt happen? Steven Fletchers fallout with the SFA/Levein is similar in ways to what happened with McCarthy, if you want more, try googling instead of sticking on blinkers and playing dumb.
As for the 'life threatening injuries' remark, :rolleyes:
Players are often asked to travel for assessment by NT doctors and sent home, do you need examples of this happening aswell?
If its as easy as googling, surely you can pull up a few examples. There's no playing dumb or sticking on blinkers here. I honestly don't see it as that common an occurence and, to be honest, you seem to be struggling to come up with examples so you also must be. The whole "I'm too busy to be digging up pages of examples" doesn't really cut it when you're telling me I can Google them easily.
I don't see how Fletcher being unwilling to play under Levein has anything to do with the question I've asked. Levin played a 6-4-0 formation against the Faroe Islands. Fletcher criticised him and then refused his next call up. I'd see openly refusing a call up because of previous tactics and criticising the manager and tactics as hugely different to the McCarthy situation or the situation I've described.
I've described a situation where a player says they have a knock or some minor illness, gets the club doctor to sign them off and then misses the friendly match. Not one where they fall out with their international manager. As for the life threatening injuries remark, you can throw smiley faces around all ya like, three players from the one club all developed injuries which caused them to miss the game, injuries strangely enough which can't be proven by an x-ray or any other definitive test, and are all very minor ailments.
Where did I say anything about players not being asked to travel for assessment? I'm sure there are players asked. You seem to be trying to change the point as we go further on.
Let's look at the facts. You stated
"Surely that request came from Man United so his gametime is something they are concerned with at this moment in time"...
So you see Robin van Persie playing 45 minutes in an international friendly where he was one of only two players starting for Holland with over 8 caps, where the second half of the game was full of substitutions and where other established Dutch players were all rested, and playing just 45 minutes, as a sign that Alex Ferguson is worried about his game time?
For me, and this is total conjecture as I'm happy to admit, Fergie is as unrelenting as they come and, as I said, purely in my own opinion, if Fergie was worried about RVP's game time, he'd have a sprained ankle or a throat infection or some other ailment which caused him to miss that match entirely.
And if United had gone to the trouble of requesting that RVP only play a half, surely van Gaal would have the sense to think, well, if I'm not starting established players, this lad's club has taken the time to contact me and make a request so maybe I shouldn't play him at all?0 -
Lads this is boring and completely irrelevant at this stage, ye're filling up this thread with pointless nit picking. Let it go and we'll get back to the topic in question,0
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Swiper the fox wrote: »All that matters is points at the end of the day, who gets most! I can't afford Van Persie any more because I'm prioritising midfield and need to strenghten defence. I think roryc was saying about this notion of having to have attacking cover for certain teams being total bunkum(apologies if it's not) and I'm inclined to agree, chances are city will at least equal United's point total and goals scored for the rest of the league, I'll have that because it costs me less, I'd like to get in utd defensive cover though because I think they could tighten up there, they seem to do so most years around this time.
Not for the first time I don't agree with Rory (I better get off this thread with all my arguing). I do think trying to cover teams is a good strategy. I never like to have a midfielder and attacker from the one team unless its from a top five side and I always try to have attacking cover from all top five sides.
In my mind, the top five are the teams liable to unleash a thrashing on a team at any one stage. At least if you have one of their team you've a chance of scoring big when that occurs e.g. Chelsea 8-0 against Villa, Arsenal 7-2 against Newcastle. I'll always try to have at least one attacker from each of the top five. I'd have had a City attacker long ago but for the fact that Aguero has been injured - he's the only one guaranteed to start when fit from their strikers IMO.
I note what you are saying about Aguero matching RVP for the rest of the season and I think he could but, by not having United attacking cover at all, are you not leaving yourself at a strong disadvantage compared to people like me who are looking at having both United and City attackers?0 -
Not for the first time I don't agree with Rory (I better get off this thread with all my arguing). I do think trying to cover teams is a good strategy. I never like to have a midfielder and attacker from the one team unless its from a top five side and I always try to have attacking cover from all top five sides.
In my mind, the top five are the teams liable to unleash a thrashing on a team at any one stage. At least if you have one of their team you've a chance of scoring big when that occurs e.g. Chelsea 8-0 against Villa, Arsenal 7-2 against Newcastle. I'll always try to have at least one attacker from each of the top five. I'd have had a City attacker long ago but for the fact that Aguero has been injured - he's the only one guaranteed to start when fit from their strikers IMO.
I note what you are saying about Aguero matching RVP for the rest of the season and I think he could but, by not having United attacking cover at all, are you not leaving yourself at a strong disadvantage compared to people like me who are looking at having both United and City attackers?
Well I've stated repeatedly on this thread that I can't afford VP anymore if I want to upgrade my defence and keep 4 of the very best mids, I'm certainly tempted by Rooney but he's second best while I consider Aguero top man at city, I know that for a lot of people it can be a case of what have you done for me lately and in that regard Rooney trumps Aguero but I'd rather take a chance on city's most likely big scorer when they are chasing the league, YaYa will improve them for sure, Rooney is unlikely to get another chance from the penalty spot etc.
Anyway in an ideal world I'd keep Van Persie but my entire team value isn't much over 103m(I hadn't a clue what I was doing early on), he's a luxury I'll have to get by without, it makes it a bit more fun anyway, hoping he doesn't score;).0 -
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If its as easy as googling, surely you can pull up a few examples. There's no playing dumb or sticking on blinkers here. I honestly don't see it as that common an occurence and, to be honest, you seem to be struggling to come up with examples so you also must be. The whole "I'm too busy to be digging up pages of examples" doesn't really cut it when you're telling me I can Google them easily.
I don't see how Fletcher being unwilling to play under Levein has anything to do with the question I've asked. Levin played a 6-4-0 formation against the Faroe Islands. Fletcher criticised him and then refused his next call up. I'd see openly refusing a call up because of previous tactics and criticising the manager and tactics as hugely different to the McCarthy situation or the situation I've described.
I've described a situation where a player says they have a knock or some minor illness, gets the club doctor to sign them off and then misses the friendly match. Not one where they fall out with their international manager. As for the life threatening injuries remark, you can throw smiley faces around all ya like, three players from the one club all developed injuries which caused them to miss the game, injuries strangely enough which can't be proven by an x-ray or any other definitive test, and are all very minor ailments.
Where did I say anything about players not being asked to travel for assessment? I'm sure there are players asked. You seem to be trying to change the point as we go further on.
Let's look at the facts. You stated
"Surely that request came from Man United so his gametime is something they are concerned with at this moment in time"...
So you see Robin van Persie playing 45 minutes in an international friendly where he was one of only two players starting for Holland with over 8 caps, where the second half of the game was full of substitutions and where other established Dutch players were all rested, and playing just 45 minutes, as a sign that Alex Ferguson is worried about his game time?
For me, and this is total conjecture as I'm happy to admit, Fergie is as unrelenting as they come and, as I said, purely in my own opinion, if Fergie was worried about RVP's game time, he'd have a sprained ankle or a throat infection or some other ailment which caused him to miss that match entirely.
And if United had gone to the trouble of requesting that RVP only play a half, surely van Gaal would have the sense to think, well, if I'm not starting established players, this lad's club has taken the time to contact me and make a request so maybe I shouldn't play him at all?
Fletcher was dropped for pulling out from a squad by text message, its demonstrates how easily it is to get on the wrong side of an international manager. Your take on it is full of inaccuracies. If you're not 100% committed, you can fall down the pecking order or in extreme cases, not be called upon again. It happens, I dont care if you arent interested in opening your eyes to that.
As I said, NT doctors can make their own assessments on players. Who cares if they show up on xrays or not, they can carry out a physical exam themselves and make their own assessments if they want. I havent changed anything, you are the one waffling on and on and on about other things and looking for examples of this that and the other.
Alot of 'senior' dutch players were omitted because they arent playing regularly at club level, a very different reason to your interpretation of the match report. A quick google told me this, imagine what would happen if you tried to google!0 -
Fletcher was dropped for pulling out from a squad by text message, its demonstrates how easily it is to get on the wrong side of an international manager. Your take on it is full of inaccuracies. If you're not 100% committed, you can fall down the pecking order or in extreme cases, not be called upon again. It happens, I dont care if you arent interested in opening your eyes to that.
As I said, NT doctors can make their own assessments on players. Who cares if they show up on xrays or not, they can carry out a physical exam themselves and make their own assessments if they want. I havent changed anything, you are the one waffling on and on and on about other things and looking for examples of this that and the other.
Alot of 'senior' dutch players were omitted because they arent playing regularly at club level, a very different reason to your interpretation of the match report. A quick google told me this, imagine what would happen if you tried to google!
As I already said, Fletcher's circumstance is totally different to the one I'm talking about. Fletcher refused the call up. A player citing a knock is not refusing the call up. They're saying they can't make it.
I work in insurance and deal with quantifying injury claims every day. Believe me, when it comes to strains and sprains, a doctor is very much going on what he's told and little else.
I'm looking for examples because you've very little to back up anything you're saying and this shows from the fact that you can't provide proof for anything.
And imagine we could move on from this if you were just willing to admit that your point has very little basis to it whatsoever.0 -
As I already said, Fletcher's circumstance is totally different to the one I'm talking about. Fletcher refused the call up. A player citing a knock is not refusing the call up. They're saying they can't make it.
I work in insurance and deal with quantifying injury claims every day. Believe me, when it comes to strains and sprains, a doctor is very much going on what he's told and little else.
I'm looking for examples because you've very little to back up anything you're saying and this shows from the fact that you can't provide proof for anything.
And imagine we could move on from this if you were just willing to admit that your point has very little basis to it whatsoever.
If a NT doctor isnt convinced that he's injured or the assessment is blatantly exaggerated, what happens when that assessment reaches the manager?
My point has plenty of basis, just you have a problem with it Your reasoning for VG's selection and substitutions is wrong. My point about international managers dropping/falling out with players because they arent showing the commitment to the cause stands regardless of what you think. Its not like VG is known for falling out with players, is it?0 -
If a NT doctor isnt convinced that he's injured or the assessment is blatantly exaggerated, what happens when that assessment reaches the manager?
My point has plenty of basis, just you have a problem with it Your reasoning for VG's selection and substitutions is wrong. My point about international managers dropping/falling out with players because they arent showing the commitment to the cause stands regardless of what you think. Its not like VG is known for falling out with players, is it?
You're still going about the assessments. Have you ever heard of what you're describing above happening? I haven't and in an ideal world it may be what's meant to happen but it doesn't. Take the case in the Summer with Stuart Pearce. He could of stopped Bale playing for Spurs but wasn't even bothered. Had all these medical evaluations you mention happened there?
As for the Dutch game, do you think those players will be omitted in competitive games next month? The article doesn't change the fact that he wasn't arsed playing them because it was a meaningless friendly. Next month when the Netherlands have a game that's a three pointer he won't care if they are playing for their clubs.
Your point does stand about players being left out of sides when they fall out with managers. But that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about players getting "knocks" and missing internationals.
I've answered your questions and admitted you do have points through all my posts but I still don't believe you have any basis whatsoever for making the statement you did.
We'll leave it there because you're just ignoring most of my points and not answering my questions of you so we're going nowhere quick.0 -
You're still going about the assessments. Have you ever heard of what you're describing above happening? I haven't and in an ideal world it may be what's meant to happen but it doesn't. Take the case in the Summer with Stuart Pearce. He could of stopped Bale playing for Spurs but wasn't even bothered. Had all these medical evaluations you mention happened there?
As for the Dutch game, do you think those players will be omitted in competitive games next month? The article doesn't change the fact that he wasn't arsed playing them because it was a meaningless friendly. Next month when the Netherlands have a game that's a three pointer he won't care if they are playing for their clubs.
Your point does stand about players being left out of sides when they fall out with managers. But that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about players getting "knocks" and missing internationals.
I've answered your questions and admitted you do have points through all my posts but I still don't believe you have any basis whatsoever for making the statement you did.
We'll leave it there because you're just ignoring most of my points and not answering my questions of you so we're going nowhere quick.
Do you not remember this remarkAre you trying to say its not a problem that players pull out of internationals with phantom knocks? Its always been a known part and parcel of the international game IMO. You say medical evidence has to be provided. How exactly do you provide medical evidence of a strain? It doesn't show up on an x-ray.
I've stated how its assessed by NT's under the current FIFA rules but you tried to give me the "I work for an insurance company" waffle them tell me that im ignoring your points and going nowhere quick :rolleyes:
If those players arent playing regular ball and/or still not match fit then I fully believe that VG will consider dropping them for players that are playing regularly.
No basis? Are you suggesting that club managers dont privately ask for some players to have reduced gametime during friendlies? I think you'll find that its common place0 -
Do you not remember this remark
I've stated how its assessed by NT's under the current FIFA rules but you tried to give me the "I work for an insurance company" waffle them tell me that im ignoring your points and going nowhere quick :rolleyes:
If those players arent playing regular ball and/or still not match fit then I fully believe that VG will consider dropping them for players that are playing regularly.
No basis? Are you suggesting that club managers dont privately ask for some players to have reduced gametime during friendlies? I think you'll find that its common place
My point was I review medicals every day of the week. A doctor has no way of proving if a player actually has a strain. It's a tissue injury. That's the point. I'm not saying I'm a medical expert but I've plenty of experience reading medical reports, assessing them and setting values. So I know an injury someone can feign and one they cannot. That's my point.
You can quote FIFA rules all you like. I've asked a number of questions from you and you haven't answered any of them so why should I continue to answer yours. As I've asked, you can't even give one example of where these rules have been implemented. You can't give one example of anything I've asked of you despite your comments about googling being easy.
FFS. Back round in circles. I've already said I realise club managers ask international managers to rest players etc.
You have absolutely no proof Fergie asked though so, as I've said numerous times, your original point that "surely" taking RVP off at half time came from United is conjecture. To say that means they are worried about his game time is even more conjecture.
We'll leave it at that or take it to pm because even I'm bored, frustrated and not arsed with this one anymore.0 -
So anyways I think I'll hold onto RVP for a few more weeks to assess his returns and whether Utd will have completely closed out the league by March.0
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Had him from the start of the season, he's going no where, he'll still get assists/goals.0
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If, and as a United fan showing no bias on the matter, Unted get knocked out of Europe by Madrid (which could happen quite easily), then Van Persie will get plenty of rest.0
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If, and as a United fan showing no bias on the matter, Unted get knocked out of Europe by Madrid (which could happen quite easily), then Van Persie will get plenty of rest.
To be honest, that could easily happen. Will wait and see but United's midfield is very weak compared to Madrid's.0 -
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31k managers transfer out RVP this week,I wonder how many can actually afford to get him back after the DGW..0
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31k managers transfer out RVP this week,I wonder how many can actually afford to get him back after the DGW..
Why do you assume they want to get him back? The Van Persie adulation on here is getting a bit tiresome at this stage, unless someone can provide some evidence that he is an absolute necessity at around 14m which is what most will recoup on him then just get on with your own team and don't worry yourselves.0 -
31k managers transfer out RVP this week,I wonder how many can actually afford to get him back after the DGW..
Don't tell me you follow that stupid @ _fantasypremierleague account . It only has so many followers because people make the mistake thinking it's the real account .
It's not right anyway he has 32000 out and 3000 in . So that's 29000 net transfers out .0 -
2K out,sure it wasn't that far off....
It is inevitiable that some if not alot of RVP sellers will panic if he cracks in a few good scoring weeks,by all means sell him like some have done and with good foundation but just to sell him for 1 DGW would be silly imo0 -
Swiper the fox wrote: »
Why do you assume they want to get him back? The Van Persie adulation on here is getting a bit tiresome at this stage, unless someone can provide some evidence that he is an absolute necessity at around 14m which is what most will recoup on him then just get on with your own team and don't worry yourselves.
Hold on there. The thread title poses a question and both sides of the argument are permitted their say.
I think it's a fair point to make that anyone getting rid of RVP would be wise to have an available tactic for getting him back in if needed.
He's last season's top scorer in the game and the PL's leading scorer this season I think.0 -
Hold on there. The thread title poses a question and both sides of the argument are permitted their say.
I think it's a fair point to make that anyone getting rid of RVP would be wise to have an available tactic for getting him back in if needed.
He's last season's top scorer in the game and the PL's leading scorer this season I think.
Ya but the thread title makes no reference to short term transfers or any other type, it's not my long term strategy to get him back but if it was I could do it no problem by dumping a premium midfielder for one around 6m.
There is a certain tendency of people on here to blow Van Persie out of all proportion, I don't think he is overachieving for the price he is, do you? This thead is great because in general people can discuss the merits of dumping him without the usual smartarse comments which follow any mention of thinking about doing so, you or I wouldn't have to look too hard to find plenty of these.
Is Van Persie the best player to have if money is no object? Probably yes but as I've pointed out Mata and Walcott scored more points per 90 minutes.
Is Van Persie worth 3.2m more than Aguero at this stage of the season? I don't think so.
Just don't take it for granted that people are transferring him because there is a DGW for Suarez, we're all smart people/players on here so no need for the patronising remarks.0 -
Alot will depend on how long Rooney can keep up his form. He's shown before when he goes on streaks he can be devastating. I won't be afraid to bite the bullet and take out Rvp if Rooney keeps up the form he's in. Still on the fence for now though, it can't be long before Rvp scores again. Also, a certain dgw is taking priority at the moment
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6k transfers to go cmon rvp drop0
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RVP brace and an assist with 3 bonus points this weekend. He'll go up .2 next week.
There's no such thing as a necessity really. But RVP would definitely be the player i'd fear most if i didn't have him in my team. Last year it was Aguero for me. Earlier this season it was Suarez. Now there isn't really any attacking player i fear not having. Aguero possibly but he nor Man City have been playing to their best recently.0 -
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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2275866/Sir-Alex-Ferguson-blasts-scheduling-Manchester-United-game-Everton.html#axzz2KOFBcZtH
Reading this article and another item on the utd website where fergie said he was happy for rooney to play 90 mins against brazil as he needs games.
I think its highly likely RVP will not start tomorrow. Rooney and wellbeck most likely IMO.
Reasons for RVP not to start
- 9 pts clear
- facing their toughest game in europe since CL final in 2011
- Real have had an extra days rest
-Hes played way more football than any other utd striker
-Hes nearly 30 all utds other strikers are much younger
- Fergie did it with ronaldo before big CL games
-utd have 4 international strikers that fergie reckons are his best since 1999
Reasons for RVP to start
- Dont want to throw the league away
-Could start and if game won be taking off early
- Only played 45 mins during the week. Rooney / Hernandez played 90
-Boards will go into meltdown if he doesnt.
Really hoping he doesnt start he could well drop another .1 bringing him down to 13.9.
Anyway if your thinking about points only by having suarez instead of rvp this week. I will have been really unlucky if RVP outscores him.0
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