GRA pull out of pay talks

SB2013

http://www.thejournal.ie/public-pay-deal-reached-croke-park-809169-Feb2013/

Seems to be a lot of anger in the comments section. For most Gardaí this will mean a six month increment freeze and a reduction in Sunday allowance totalling maybe 50 a month. Seems pretty reasonable to me. Have i missed something?

EDIT: Just seen that twilight allowance scrapped and night allowance reduced. Starting to look less reasonable.

pah

SB2013 wrote: »

http://www.thejournal.ie/public-pay-deal-reached-croke-park-809169-Feb2013/

Seems to be a lot of anger in the comments section. For most Gardaí this will mean a six month increment freeze and a reduction in Sunday allowance totalling maybe 50 a month. Seems pretty reasonable to me. Have i missed something?

EDIT: Just seen that twilight allowance scrapped and night allowance reduced. Starting to look less reasonable.

anything more than zero is unreasonable imo.

SB2013

pah wrote: »

anything more than zero is unreasonable imo.

There's also a cut in the pension levy on the lower rates. It's a much better offer than i expected and seems to be focused on higher earners for the most part.

goldie fish

Who gets twilight allowance?

goldie fish

SB2013 wrote: »

There's also a cut in the pension levy on the lower rates. It's a much better offer than i expected and seems to be focused on higher earners for the most part.

reduces the pension levy by about €9

crackcrack30

All Overtime rates cut for those on over 35k to t +1/2 (i think)
twilight gone and premium rates reduced.... increased work week for nurses

Shift workers, Rostered workers carrying most of the brunt & burden....

A SIPTU sellout IMO.....:(

Bring it on................

BaronVon

goldie fish wrote: »

Who gets twilight allowance?

Twilight is a lesser night duty rate for hours worked between 6pm - 8pm.

ajk24

I have run some numbers for a garda on a core unit - I do not stand over these numbers for the purposes of anyone's personal financial planning but they should be a reasonable estimate.

For 6-10 years service

Croke Park 1 = €44,744 p.a.

Shift Premiums - 24%

Base Salary Incl. Shift Premium Allowaces Total
Salary Gross -CP1 44,744 55,436.50 4399.235714 59,836
Salary Gross - CP2 44,744 53,681.83 4399.235714 58,081
Delta 1,755 Annual
Allowance RENT ALLOWANCE 77.04890411 33.65 Weekly 2.93%
BOOT ALLOWANCE 2.93
UNIFORM ALLOWANCE G/S 4.39


These are all gross figures - effect in terms of net take home should be in the region of €14 (+/- €4 for members with more or less service).
These are average - each paycheck will be different depending on shift pattern.

unichall

unichall wrote: »

With regard lads not driving on chiefs we are only making a rod for our own backs here. I am the only official driver on the unit and all official drivers would just be refused leave when they apply for it because the 'exigencies' of the force. Also units with more than one official driver will have lads split up and moved to other units with none, lads pulled back to regular from compol etc.

It is an unfair burden to place on official drivers for the sake of a protest. Grounding cars that dont for the slightest reason meet health and saftey guidelines is far more practical and with an aging fleet will be more effective if impkemented across the board

The answer is driver training not chiefs. Chiefs should be done away with, bring back the days when the car course and firearms training was done in templemore.

unichall

blindjustice wrote: »

The answer is driver training not chiefs. Chiefs should be done away with, bring back the days when the car course and firearms training was done in templemore.

Correct but thats not going to help if the work to rule includes lads not driving on chiefs, it is still an
unfair ask on official drivers. As for no on said protest would be easy, thats easy to say when you are not an offiacial driver and facing the prospect of no leave. It all depends on how long the work to rule was for but an indefinit period I would not be in favour of.

On another note how do lads feel the current work to rule is going? Not much change in my opinion, is it different elsewhere or is it as one of our skippers said just the gra being seen to be doing something in protest?

coolhandluke

unichall wrote: »

Correct but thats not going to help if the work to rule includes lads not driving on chiefs, it is still an
unfair ask on official drivers. As for no on said protest would be easy, thats easy to say when you are not an offiacial driver and facing the prospect of no leave. It all depends on how long the work to rule was for but an indefinit period I would not be in favour of.

On another note how do lads feel the current work to rule is going? Not much change in my opinion, is it different elsewhere or is it as one of our skippers said just the gra being seen to be doing something in protest?

Has your pay been cut as part of this croke pk 2 agreement ? have you had to work any extra hours as part of this croke pk 2 agreement ?

Croke pk 1 is in place until mid 2014, let the govt breach croke pk 1 and then we will see what happens, why would the gardai breach the agreement ?

All that has happened so far is that certain goodwill has been withdrawn, in protest at what the govt has briefed it wants to do.....when you stop oiling the engine, it's takes a while for the wheels to fall off.......

BaronVon

unichall wrote: »

As for no on said protest would be easy, thats easy to say when you are not an offiacial driver and facing the prospect of no leave. It all depends on how long the work to rule was for but an indefinit period I would not be in favour of.

The point of any kind of industrial action is everyone does it together, strength in numbers.

One person concerned about the inconvenience about how it will affect them personally does not instil me with confidence, and thinking like that will be the reason any action will ultimately fail.

SB2013

unichall wrote: »

Correct but thats not going to help if the work to rule includes lads not driving on chiefs, it is still an
unfair ask on official drivers. As for no on said protest would be easy, thats easy to say when you are not an offiacial driver and facing the prospect of no leave. It all depends on how long the work to rule was for but an indefinit period I would not be in favour of.

On another note how do lads feel the current work to rule is going? Not much change in my opinion, is it different elsewhere or is it as one of our skippers said just the gra being seen to be doing something in protest?

No its not easy to say. Its not fun having to beg and borrow official drivers for their time just so you can get to court or call to a house. Neither is it fun to be stuck on the beat in the best of Irish weather because there's only one official driver working. Everyone will run into different difficulties when it comes to sustained industrial action. If you have trouble getting leave at all then I suggest you contact your GRA rep, preferably as a group representing official drivers and come up with a plan to address it. As regards unfairness, I think the current restriction and liability placed on unofficial drivers is incredibly unfair and I think they'd be mad to drive under them regardless of industrial action.

Is the work to rule effective? It depends on what you mean. Is it demonstrating a complete ineffectiveness of practices and resources? Yes. Is it causing a big enough headache for those at the top to take notice? Not yet.

J K

unichall wrote: »

unfair ask on official drivers.

It's up to official drivers to only drive for spans of time that it is safe to do so.

As it stands being required to drive for ten hours with a possible 45 minute break - given subject to exigencies - is already unsafe.

It's up to drivers to formulate the periods of time that are not excessive where both their own safety, their observers, prisoners and other road users is not compromised.

unichall

J K wrote: »

It's up to official drivers to only drive for spans of time that it is safe to do so.

As it stands being required to drive for ten hours with a possible 45 minute break - given subject to exigencies - is already unsafe.

It's up to drivers to formulate the periods of time that are not excessive where both their own safety, their observers, prisoners and other road users is not compromised.

The law is 45mins every 4.5 hours of driving so the job is safe there and no more than 90hours in 2 consecutive weeks which even if you drove every shift you wouldn't go over.

Im not, not, in favour of industrial action and as of yet pulling lads on chiefs hasnt happened but if it did I wouldn't be in favour of it.

Hypothetical scenario if they did pull lads on chiefs: no offiacial drivers available but there are lads who could drive on chiefs, a robbery happens and someone gets seriously injured/ killed, no patrol car out due to industrial action. Who looks bad, the gardai or the government?

dfbemt

unichall wrote: »

The law is 45mins every 4.5 hours of driving so the job is safe there and no more than 90hours in 2 consecutive weeks which even if you drove every shift you wouldn't go over.

Im not, not, in favour of industrial action and as of yet pulling lads on chiefs hasnt happened but if it did I wouldn't be in favour of it.

Hypothetical scenario if they did pull lads on chiefs: no offiacial drivers available but there are lads who could drive on chiefs, a robbery happens and someone gets seriously injured/ killed, no patrol car out due to industrial action. Who looks bad, the gardai or the government?

Not enough money to pay bills because of the cuts.

Who goes without, you or the government?

Driving around in a ridiculous looking mobile Garda station.

Who looks ridiculous, you or the government?

Get shot dead by Credit Union thieves.

Who feels the pain, you or the government?

Cop on. The Government don't give a sh!t about you or your colleagues. Time to stand up and say enough.

FGR

I have to agree with dfbemt here. The public will never react positively to industrial action within the emergency services as regardless of any action taken the Government will only react if it affects them negatively; and the only way they can't pretend that everything is alright is when the general public complain to them about not having a Paramedic, Doctor, Nurse, Firefighter or Garda available to them as required.

Sure what difference does a Garda not using his own car make? Still doesn't effect the Government or Joe public - just makes the beat Garda get wet/frozen. Also - what does is it withdrawing Chiefs as they'll only cancel leave for official drivers. If anything all Gardaí at this stage should have a proper car course done.

BaronVon

unichall wrote: »

Hypothetical scenario if they did pull lads on chiefs: no offiacial drivers available but there are lads who could drive on chiefs, a robbery happens and someone gets seriously injured/ killed, no patrol car out due to industrial action. Who looks bad, the gardai or the government?

Hypothetical Scenario:

Chief's driver blue lights to robbery call due to serious nature of call and his employer's failure to provide him with basic training.

Chief's driver is involved in a collision en route to call. Chief's driver is investigated, and subsequently convicted in district court of dangerous driving.

Chief's driver is then investigated for breach of discipline for blue lighting on chiefs, further fines as a result of internal discipline.

Chief's driver's personal car insurance is hiked up as a result of DC conviction for years to come, as a result of driving in a manner he was not trained to do, and in a manner he would never drive in his private car.

Extreme scenario, but quite possible.

The fact is, driver training in AGS is a basic requirement. Chief's permission should have been vehemently opposed when it was first muted, and it should have been done away with long ago.

Yes, lads handing back chiefs will be more problematic for the mules concerned, and the service provided to the locals will suffer as a result, but it's 2013, it's an absolute disgrace any member should be required to perform any duty without having their basic health and safety necessities addressed.

Geansai

dfbemt wrote: »

Get shot dead by Credit Union thieves.

Who feels the pain, you or the government?

Cop on. The Government don't give a sh!t about you or your colleagues. Time to stand up and say enough.

I actually think its disgraceful that you would bring this incident up in this thread.
The purpose thread is to focus on the GRA pulling out of the pay talks, and the related fallout. It is not related to the escalation of crime across Ireland in general.
Are the pay reductions in any way related to the Dectective getting shot? No.
If even this discussion was about Garda equipment, or Garda resources, it may be more relevant, but it is a pity that you would use the cruel murder of a serving member to strenghten the arguement for opposition to a pay decrease.

SB2013

Geansai wrote: »

I actually think its disgraceful that you would bring this incident up in this thread.
The purpose thread is to focus on the GRA pulling out of the pay talks, and the related fallout. It is not related to the escalation of crime across Ireland in general.
Are the pay reductions in any way related to the Dectective getting shot? No.
If even this discussion was about Garda equipment, or Garda resources, it may be more relevant, but it is a pity that you would use the cruel murder of a serving member to strenghten the arguement for opposition to a pay decrease.

I disagree. The consistent reduction in Garda resources has contributed to creating an environment where criminal gangs have been able to grow in size, power and confidence resulting in them taking more and more risks and escalating to using and threatening higher level of violence than before.

All you have to do is look at the last similar murder, committed by the IRA at one of their peaks of power. Criminal gangs are now at a similar level and the cause is the decimation of the justice system, particularly An Garda Síochána, by a succession of poor justice ministers.

This in no way takes away from the guilt of those who committed the act but we have to ask how has the environment been created where such an act was possible.

pa990

it's a month since this thread was started, and what have the GRA achieved?

actions speak louder than words.

we need lots of (in)action

goldie fish

pa990 wrote: »

it's a month since this thread was started, and what have the GRA achieved?

actions speak louder than words.

we need lots of (in)action

What has anyone achieved?

POGAN

GRA on Primetime tonight 10.35

tayto lover

The Government and Shatter in particular seem to be just laughing at the Garda.
If they want to make a serious case then they need to be prepared to take serious action. Pussy-footing around will get them nowhere.

coolhandluke

tayto lover wrote: »

The Government and Shatter in particular seem to be just laughing at the Garda.
If they want to make a serious case then they need to be prepared to take serious action. Pussy-footing around will get them nowhere.

The last time there was a blue flu fg were in power, personally i think this is going to get very messy, but slowly slowly catchy monkey.......

Pappa Charlie

Parker came across well, I was interested to hear the reference to rosters and Croke park 1, could the old roster be beckoning????

So the government are trying to save money. To do this they highlight garda budgets & how much it costs the country. The gardai need to show how much money they take in FOR the government. I'm not talking motor tax fines, I mean stop giving out ALL fines on the spot, NO section 41, nothing taken in under customs regs etc. & def no acceptance of any money for court fines etc. We will see how much money the government are down after a couple of months of that! Gardai should no longer take in any cash whatsoever on behalf of the government. Cost them money.

goldie fish

coolhandluke wrote: »

The last time there was a blue flu fg were in power, personally i think this is going to get very messy, but slowly slowly catchy monkey.......

Last time there was a Blue Flu was in 1998. Bull Donoghue was minister then since 1997.

coolhandluke

goldie fish wrote: »

Last time there was a Blue Flu was in 1998. Bull Donoghue was minister then since 1997.

My bad, someone else said that to me, should have checked my facts myself.

Maybe there we're referring to the previous years of the rainbow govt and what led up to the blue flue, the split, the federation and all that.......

guttenberg

bubblypop, so to avoid current/future proposed paycuts to Gardai, you propose taking extra action to limit the amount of revenue the bosses of the Gardai(the Govt.) take into their coffers? If any employer has less revenue to work with, where do you think the shortfall will come from?