Can I plant indigenous broadleaf species to my own preference?

Chisler2

A (probably) naieve question. If I buy 20 acres of land can I plant indigenous broadleaf species to my own preference (e.g. woodland to stimulate wildlife etc) without being bothered by rules and regulations?

When I mentioned this to a friend whose parents were farmers (she left the land and has worked as a nurse all her life..........hates green fields) her immediate response was (a) that there are all kinds of rules and regulations about planting trees on agricultural land and (b) most of the western part of Ireland is unsuitable for deciduous forest 'because of the salt air and winds from the Atlantic'.

Is this b.s? Thank you for replies.

ford2600

Friend has land on an island off west coast, I know there is at least one deciduous tree which can handle salt water. Will check and get back to you.
No idea on rules etc

Chisler2 wrote: »

A (probably) naieve question. If I buy 20 acres of land can I plant indigenous broadleaf species to my own preference (e.g. woodland to stimulate wildlife etc) without being bothered by rules and regulations?

When I mentioned this to a friend whose parents were farmers (she left the land and has worked as a nurse all her life..........hates green fields) her immediate response was (a) that there are all kinds of rules and regulations about planting trees on agricultural land and (b) most of the western part of Ireland is unsuitable for deciduous forest 'because of the salt air and winds from the Atlantic'.

Is this b.s? Thank you for replies.

Chisler2

Thank you Ford...........I'll check back later. I would love to establish a wildlife habitat and though I've planted various gardens throughout my life in different parts of the world have never done anything large-scale or involving trees. Newly-retired and with a pension to squander (!?) it would be exciting to plant woodland, though I won't be around to see it mature. Any tips/warnings/advice/links would be helpful to a complete beginner. Given my age and the anticipation that this new venture will involve making every mistake in the book I want to avoid bureaucratic hoop-jumping.

westerlywonder

Chisler2 wrote: »

A (probably) naieve question. If I buy 20 acres of land can I plant indigenous broadleaf species to my own preference (e.g. woodland to stimulate wildlife etc) without being bothered by rules and regulations?

When I mentioned this to a friend whose parents were farmers (she left the land and has worked as a nurse all her life..........hates green fields) her immediate response was (a) that there are all kinds of rules and regulations about planting trees on agricultural land and (b) most of the western part of Ireland is unsuitable for deciduous forest 'because of the salt air and winds from the Atlantic'.

Is this b.s? Thank you for replies.

I am almost positive that there is a grant scheme for planting native forest. At least there was last year.
I think some sort of planning permission may be necessary, but maybe this is just for deforestation.

Chisler2

Thanks WW. If the paperwork and bureaucracy are not too extensive I'll explore that. I'm finding this site to be a powerful source of information. Am frustrated that the One Million Trees In One Day project goes into operation in March as unfortunately I'm still searching for suitable farmland/smallholding so can't participate in what sounds like an inspired project..........though I keep wondering about the logistics of deploying expertise throughout the island simultaneously in such a short period.

Tabnabs

it might be worth giving someone like this an email for advice

http://www.nativewoodlandtrust.ie/en/

In any event, the best of luck and keep us informed on progress please.

Chisler2

Thanks TabNabs! Meanwhile I'm salivating over Future Forest's online catalogue and dreaming......

Oldtree

if you have no grant then there are no rules, plant what you like.
Nothing is for free when it comes to grants. i prefer to retain the texture of the soil as well, mounding destroys that.
My own preference is to plant up my own seedlings of (so called) native trees and manage towards preferring native flora.

i have a semi natural/ancient woodland and the trees there are in rough order of numbers:

mainly ash (with sycamore that i am culling as non native and invasive)
hawthorn blackthorn spindle hazel
mountain ash and whitebeam
birch willow
one yew
one crab apple

(couple beech chestnut poplar)
no oak or lime

an issue to considder is local provenance, tree stock from within 20 km. careful of disease now.

westerlywonder

http://www.teagasc.ie/forestry/docs/grants/NWS_Establishment_Aug2011.pdf

Even if you do not go down the grant route, this document gives guidance on selecting a site that would be suitable to certain tree types you may wish to include.

I am not sure if grants are only available to the farming community so depending on your situation, it may or may not be suitable.
However there is some good information in there and else where on teagasc

Oldtree

grants available for non farmers too just not as much.

have a good look around the forestry site here:

http://www.agriculture.gov.ie/forestservice/grantandpremiumschemes/

http://www.agriculture.gov.ie/forestservice/

be very careful with the source of your plants

Oldtree

a top tip, hehe, is to have a good look around your area and this survey will let you know what is doing well in your area and probably will do best on your site. Better still if local landowners will allow you to collect seedlings for you to grow on. that way you are augmenting the natural setup already there in your area, if that is what you are desposed.

Gambas

Oldtree wrote: »

a top tip, hehe, is to have a good look around your area and this survey will let you know what is doing well in your area and probably will do best on your site. Better still if local landowners will allow you to collect seedlings for you to grow on. that wat you are augmenting the natural setup already there in your area.

That's the best advice going. See what is in hedgerows and out of the way places.

OP- Sounds like a great project. Something I hope to do myself some time. Unlikely that salt air will be an issue unless you are within 1km of the sea, but the soil type and depth definitely will. Most of the west would be hazel and ash on the thin well drained limestone soils and alder in the damper places.

Most of the natural cover would be medium rather than big trees - hazels, alder, elder, birch then the lower hawthorn, blackthorn, spindle etc...

I'd recommend the book (more magazine sized) Our Trees – A Guide to Growing Ireland’s Native Trees
available here:
http://www.treecouncil.ie/publications.html

Chisler2

This is a treasure-trove of advice and information! I've printed the Teagasc pamphlet which has the sort of detail I need and the pictures are well-chosen and helpful. I've been looking at sites around Westport, Louisburgh and the foothills of the Sheffreys but had wondered if East Sligo or E. Galway would have potential for a bigger range of native species. Further inland seems cheaper to buy.

Thanks to everyone. I'll go off and do the reading, then get back to the search for a farm. It is exciting.

Chisler2

Oldtree I'll bear your tip - about collecting seeds locally - in mind, but apart from conifer wind-breaks around some houses or cottages I didn't notice many plantings of deciduous trees around Clew Bay, where I've focused my search so far. People seem to go for shrubs, not trees...........apart from sites like Kylemore Abbey . I'll keep a keener eye out next time.

Chisler2

..........and Oldtree, I agree with you about grants. My wise old granny used to say "What's free moneywise costs the earth otherwise" and my life experiences bear the truth of that out.

Your setup sounds wonderful. Your ash-trees are well?

cannotdisplay

Oldtree wrote: »

if you have no grant then there are no rules, plant what you like.

i really dont think this is true, as far as i was aware you need to apply to the forest service either way.

one thing i do know is you definately wont get away with something on the 20 acre scale if its within an SAC, SPA, NHA etc. the NPWS will take you to court if necessary to stop you.

OP shouldnt be afraid to apply for permission anyway because the type of project thats being proposed is likely to be favoured by the dept.

if you were to go down the grant route and not overly worried about making much money out of the project then the Native woodland scheme is probably the way to go for a site in the west of ireland due to fertility/production issues. http://www.agriculture.gov.ie/media/migration/forestry/publications/nativewoodlandschememanual/NativeWoodlandSchemeManual2008060911.pdf

also theres info here on grants available for purely biodiversity projects which might suit better, allowing you to possibly steer clear of the forest service http://www.npws.ie/biodiversity/biodiversityfunding/

Gambas

Chisler2 wrote: »

This is a treasure-trove of advice and information! I've printed the Teagasc pamphlet which has the sort of detail I need and the pictures are well-chosen and helpful. I've been looking at sites around Westport, Louisburgh and the foothills of the Sheffreys but had wondered if East Sligo or E. Galway would have potential for a bigger range of native species. Further inland seems cheaper to buy.

Thanks to everyone. I'll go off and do the reading, then get back to the search for a farm. It is exciting.

East Galway I would be familiar with, but its a big place. Down between Portumna and Loughrea has the best native broadleaves in the county - only place to grow the big broadleaves like oaks. That's where I'd go. North east - north of Ballinasloe to Tuam is a wasteland for trees in general. And then in around Athenry the soils are too shallow. Pockets of land down around the Clare border south of Gort wouldn't be too bad either.

Oldtree

Chisler2 wrote: »

Oldtree I'll bear your tip - about collecting seeds locally - in mind, but apart from conifer wind-breaks around some houses or cottages I didn't notice many plantings of deciduous trees around Clew Bay, where I've focused my search so far. People seem to go for shrubs, not trees...........apart from sites like Kylemore Abbey . I'll keep a keener eye out next time.

the shrubs may be trees that are dwarfed by the wind and weather, probable alder and willow from what I've seen around clew bay.

Oldtree

Chisler2 wrote: »

..........and Oldtree, I agree with you about grants. My wise old granny used to say "What's free moneywise costs the earth otherwise" and my life experiences bear the truth of that out.

Your setup sounds wonderful. Your ash-trees are well?

for now but I'm sweating.....

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056779392

Oldtree

cannotdisplay wrote: »

i really dont think this is true, as far as i was aware you need to apply to the forest service either way.
one thing i do know is you definately wont get away with something on the 20 acre scale if its within an SAC, SPA, NHA etc. the NPWS will take you to court if necessary to stop you.
OP shouldnt be afraid to apply for permission anyway because the type of project thats being proposed is likely to be favoured by the dept.

I sit corrected, havnt come across this before, I have a felling licence so replanting ajacent fields by natural generation and me is what I planned for within that so didnt pay much attention to it as a seperate issue. I'm clearly out of date since 2010

From Here:
http://www.agriculture.gov.ie/forestservice/forestryandthelaw/

Afforestation
Under the European Communities (Forest Consent and Assessment) Regulations 2010, the approval of the Minister is required for all afforestation projects where the area involved is greater than 0.10 hectares (approximately 0.25 acres).

Even requesting permission for a felling licence is painless too.

However if you were to let the area go wild and plant up over time piecemeal yourself I'm not sure that would come under afforestation, the same would apply to coppices and orchards I'm sure.

Anyway the lack of enforcement with tree felling leads me to believe that there is little to worry about.

periodictable

If you can afford to plant without grants, do your own thing. Depending on the Forest Service Inspector you'll either get someone who can exercise discretion and knows about trees and is supportive, or you'll be dealing with one of the younger Inspectors who make a Gestapo convention look like the teddy bear's picnic. Anecdotal and personal experience suggests these guys hide their lack of knowledge behind the rulebook of the Forest Service and are, IMO doing appalling damage to current and future forestry in Ireland. I find it, unfortunately, infinitely easier to dispense with interference from these types
Aside from that, remember that air coming in from the sea is akin to a sandblaster, and that most trees will suffer damage. Drive along the coastal areas and see what actually grows. Perhaps a mixture of conifers may provide sufficient protection on the wind edge to realize your goal of a mixed broadleaf plantation.
Sounds like a great project and best of luck.

Chisler2

Well.........I've just downloaded/skim-read the Native Woodland Plan and almost lost the will to live, let alone attempt to be a newbie forester aged 65! In one respect I can understand they are trying to cross the t's and dot the i's but there is a dogmatism and militancy about it which is depressing. I'd have to go farm-shopping with a list of criteria the length of my arm and be subsequently constrained in the final landscape.

It brings out the 'wicked' in me, and it occurs to me that the two years or so potentially involved (wasted!) in jumping through the hoops could be circumvented by applying for both the Participatory Forester status AND Participatory Ecologist status. Six days of training qualifies and equips any potential forester to prepare the maps, analyse the terrain and complete the paperwork without all the rigmarole and site-visits (according to this manual) and there is nothing to say the P.F., P.E. and applicant cannot all be one-and-the-same person...... satisfyingly-anarchic idea.

A lot to think about! Thanks to everyone for the links, and the comments on the potential of different geographic locations has been particularly useful. I'll post again after I read Fossitt and practical questions emerge.

robp

If your looking around the Clew Bay area there is some excellent native woodland close by. On the Southern shore of Clew Bay there is the Oldhead Wood Nature Reserve which is a 42 acre native wood.

Oak is the dominant species, with birch, rowan, willow and some introduced beech and sycamore. NPWS link

I have no doubt its worth emulating it's species structure. Its true that salt spray limits woodland in extreme coastal regions but frequently this just means that trees grow as scrub rather than high forest. People underestimate how much of Ireland was covered by trees. For instance pollen evidence has shown that the Aran islands once had tree cover.

Chisler2

Thanks Rob. Just noticed your location and would volunteer that ta mise i gchoni in the USA corn-belt at the moment, but plan another site-search in Connemara as soon as US gov sort out my residency visa.

periodictable

robp wrote: »

I Its true that salt spray limits woodland in extreme coastal regions but frequently this just means that trees grow as scrub rather than high forest. People underestimate how much of Ireland was covered by trees. For instance pollen evidence has shown that the Aran islands once had tree cover.

Very true, but is it just scrub you want to grow? My land is at 200m above sea level, exposed to the 4 winds. Under the peat we've pulled old oak of up to 36cm diameter, and I know of 20 m lengths of oak removed in the past. So if the western hills were covered in mixed oak/scots forests, one hell of a significant change has occurred to the climate if the best one can get growing here now in the broadleaf department is stunted Crategus.
Sitka and some pines stand up to the most violent gales. I see a tremendous usefulness in using them in a shelter belt situation as as to aid in the growth of broadleaves which may attain a moderate size with an ensuing multiplicity of uses from amenity/ wildlife to potential furniture material.
This may be of interest

http://www.teagasc.ie/forestry/advice/quality_hardwood.asp

Chisler2

Perio It is good to have you confirm that deciduous trees can tolerate conditions on the western seaboard. That is the challenge that interests me. There seems to be an urban myth - exemplified by my friend's immediate reaction about salt in the air/strong westerly winds - that the region is not just unproductive but counter-productive.

Your comment about conifers as a windbreak behind which woodland can establish well and thrive confirms my own idea. It occurred to me that this might be a job for Laylandii which in any other context I consider an abomination.

cannotdisplay

id say a better species than leylandii would be monteray pine or lodgepole pine, they should do better in west cost soils. id plant maybe 5 rows of a shelterbelt with a few alder and birch shoved in as well to soften the look of it

periodictable

Have to agree with cannotdisplay-do not use leylandii. I seem to remember a massive storm back in the 80s and seeing leylandii scorched right into the Midlands by salt spray. Monterey cypress( P.radiata), Lodgepole pine, Sitka Spruce and Monterey Cypress (Cupressus macrocarpa) would be my choice. All are Pacific coast N. American conifers, and macrocarpa and radiata actually are protected/or doing poorly in their native regions which are Carmel, Ca and Monterey County.

Oldtree

on a beach called cross out past louisburgh, mayo there, is an area of peat protruding from the sand when the tide is really far out and I id'ed birch in it from twigs and bark.

robp

I think it’s a great idea. Eventually once I move back home I would really love to do something like this.

With this ash dieback back there is a question mark on planting ash. Oak is far more versatile on poorer acid soils. It also supports far more insect and fungi species than ash. Oak is a real mecca for biodiversity. Yet it grows slower and gathering the acorns can be a finicky to collect as they come cyclically.

You need a solid plan for it go smoothly but that is doable. Its worth visiting some of the new planted woods like the People Millennium forests. There were planted over 10 years ago so it’s a nice example of what can right and indeed wrong. I suspect the hardest part is getting a decent amount of land for a good price.

Chisler2

Oldtree I got excited at your spotting twigs and bark in bog on the landemere but presumably fossilised, then occurred to me the bit of bog might have been some distance in from the coast when those trees died and decayed? Just a thought.

Robp I am greatly drawn to oak myself and the biodiversity potential definitely influences me. I would love to develop a healthy oak-wood on the Western seaboard. Where is The People's Millenium Forest you mention? I'll put it on my list for the next visit - a list that's growing by the day thanks to the wonderful resources and generosity on this list. There are a number of likely-looking sites at the moment and I'm keen to get the bit of land and begin. It's a bit of a 'Catch-22' situation, though, as I want to be as well-informed as I can be before being saddled with a smallholding which limits the 'vision' I've got and what I know I can put into it.

Growing big things like trees - or even growing large-scale - are the things that contribute most to the 'good society' at the moment, imho. I was living in Colchester, Essex, in 2000 where, to mark the Millenium, the Borough Council planted two thousand spring-flowering bulbs in public parks, verges etc. Now, thirteen years on, they have naturalised and early spring in Colchester is magical, enjoyed by all.