Doping in football

Harry Palmr

Blue Moon will be thrilled to know that Liverpool beat their team with drugs.

"Manchester City were the last to retain their crown and that was in the face of a behind the scenes meltdown where best friend and #2 Zeljko Buvac objected to going “full nuclear” to capture the title. He was sent on gardening leave and a couple of months later the man who would be deputy king returned from Holland with a lot of new know how for a two season cycle."

Reads as if he is talking about City not Liverpool unless you know who Buvac is.

yourdeadwright

Absolutel nonsense, Liverpool dumped Shako who was starting every game after and adverse finding that he was eventually cleared off?

No chance in hell a Premier leauge club could juice all its playing staff and get away with it in this day and age
No chance every player in the squad would agree to do it or keep quite,
Players of certain faiths would never even dream of it

It's absolutely nonsense

yourdeadwright

RasTa wrote: »

Well this article will cause a stir.

http://backpagefootball.com/why-liverpool-wont-win-the-premier-league-this-season/126313/

Such horse ****e, look at the fitness level of none professional GAA players up and down the country,

Of course professional Footballers can achieve that level of fitness,

Don't forget where also talking about 15 random Footballers these are elite players,

Plus there has been plenty of games they look jaded and have been rotated, There was plenty of games Liverpool won by the odd goal and just got over the line,

Huge amount of injuries last season and even the likes of Salah looked like he lost a yard or two for large amounts of the season, not to mention Firmino looking jaded for months

RasTa

yourdeadwright wrote: »

Absolutel nonsense, Liverpool dumped Shako who was starting every game after and adverse finding that he was eventually cleared off?

No chance in hell a Premier leauge club could juice all its playing staff and get away with it in this day and age
No chance every player in the squad would agree to do it or keep quite,
Players of certain faiths would never even dream of it

It's absolutely nonsense

Take off the rose tinted specs there, I'm sure a man of faith like Mo Farah would never consider it alright.

Having that many asmathics is odd(if true), the Bradley Wiggins and Chris Froome defence.

Doping is at the top of pretty much every major sport so not sure why soccer would be exempt.

yourdeadwright

RasTa wrote: »

Take off the rose tinted specs there, I'm sure a man of faith like Mo Farah would never consider it alright.

Having that many asmathics is odd(if true), the Bradley Wiggins and Chris Froome defence.

Doping is at the top of pretty much every major sport so not sure why soccer would be exempt.

Mo Farah is not a devot Muslim he celebrates Christmas

Anyway using one example does not mean anything,

If you honestly believe that story you off your trolley,

Backroom staff, players and so on come and go and not always under good great circumstances, there would need to many people involved for it to stay quite,

Yes doping happens but there is no way in hell the club is doping a whole squad that just nonsense,

Also the actual article claims its the miss use of caffeine for **** sake

gimli2112

Exercised-induced asthma is a narrowing of the airways in the lungs triggered by strenuous exercise. It causes shortness of breath, wheezing, coughing and other symptoms during or after exercise. The preferred term for this condition is exercise-induced bronchoconstriction.

I never knew this was a thing. It would make sense athletes have a higher frequency of athsma than the gen pop. Also I could be asthmetic and who would know? These guys are tested for things like this and presumably there's varying degrees of it.

I do understand however that if Liverpool's stunning successes could be attributed to some nefarious reasons it would make it easier for people

yourdeadwright

gimli2112 wrote: »

Exercised-induced asthma is a narrowing of the airways in the lungs triggered by strenuous exercise. It causes shortness of breath, wheezing, coughing and other symptoms during or after exercise. The preferred term for this condition is exercise-induced bronchoconstriction.

I never knew this was a thing. It would make sense athletes have a higher frequency of athsma than the gen pop. Also I could be asthmetic and who would know? These guys are tested for things like this and presumably there's varying degrees of it.

I do understand however that if Liverpool's stunning successes could be attributed to some nefarious reasons it would make it easier for people

Is there any evidence that Liverpool players are asthmatic and who is the lad who wrote the article,
Liverpool and City have been good but let's be fair the rest of the Premier leauge have been going through an absolutly rancid period,

RasTa

Pep's Barcelona have been accused for years, similar for his City and Bayern.

I think you are being naive to completely rule out doping in football, it's pretty much accepted in the NFL. Only really frowned upon in the Olympics and cycling.

yourdeadwright wrote: »

Mo Farah is not a devot Muslim he celebrates Christmas

What?

Fitz*

Up the match fixing, doping, cheating, VAR-assisted, asterix world champions Liverpool

Bridge93

Something like a third of pro cyclists, over 60% of swimmers and 20% of the UK Olympic squad in 2016 claim to be asthmatic. It’s pretty prevalent across sports. Now the question around the legitimacy of all that is of course open to debate. Spain and obviously Russia have been in trouble for it before.

My theory based on no proof is that being asthmatic improves your lung capacity and oxygen flow which potentially gives you a better engine and fitness level, needed to be a pro. If they are on medication from a young age, there’s a chance it improves the above beyond normal levels. Sample size is myself.

Now if they’re hitting 20 and suddenly claiming to be asthmatic then maybe there’s a different story.

I’d agree it seems very hard to believe systematic doping wouldn’t get out

TitianGerm

I think they should just gather up a few average Joe's and have them perform a few different activities. Swim 100m, Sprint 100m, throw a shot put etc and then load them with PEDs for a few months and come back in 6 months and do the tests again :pac:

~Rebel~

RasTa wrote: »

It's hard to give examples with no proof. Didn't know Mo Farah's drug man was working with the English FA until he got caught.

Now working with Wolves who had a decent season....

Give examples? He doesn't even attempt to give a point. It's just a really awfully presented article, really poorly concieved, and implemented, with absolutely no idea what he's even trying to say. Bouncing around between half-formed shadows of points.

For example, it finishes with;

"I am not alleging any wrongdoing on their part. Nor am I intimating that they’re all on the juice. I’ve simply studied the support systems, those involved and what’s needed to achieve what they have achieved. It’s impossible to do three seasons in a row without players collapsing from cardiovascular issues or physical or mental collapse."

What's he talking about? If you've studied those things, then please share mr writer guy! And it seems like he's only referring to points totals, but what's that got to do with physiology? If they'd gotten fewer points this season, but ran just as much would this not be an issue? Because they have already had more than three seasons in a row of doing incredibly hard running - it's just in the first few of those seasons the actual football wasn't as successful. And the season they've pressed hardest and ran most was three years ago.

Like, every piece of that final statement needs to be expanded upon - particularly what specifically does he think they've achieved that's out of the ordinary (using the freely available stats), and what 'juice' is he intimating is 'needed to achieve'. It all feels like he's taking a massive leap from the apple juice with caffeine the players drink, which they're super open about and actively discuss...


What would be really helpful (on top of writing a lot more coherently) is if he did the basic work of illustrating what he's talking about with figures of distances covered by players, and how it dramatically sways away from the mean. Or going into detail of who Pep Ljinders was working with at NEC Nijmegen that taught him about all this supposed doping stuff that made Liverpool bring him back?

Honestly when i first read it, I thought it was satire.



Incidentally, I've no doubt there is doping in football - but I suspect it's on more of a personal level than club sponsored, and is more to be found in the margins between levels - like journeyman players trying to stay at prem or champ level. The stakes are so high for some of these guys as contracts run down and new ones need to be earned, or justification sought to be signed by someone else. You have players desperate to prove they're worth a club taking a risk on them.

StringerBell

yourdeadwright wrote: »

Absolutel nonsense, Liverpool dumped Shako who was starting every game after and adverse finding that he was eventually cleared off?

No chance in hell a Premier leauge club could juice all its playing staff and get away with it in this day and age
No chance every player in the squad would agree to do it or keep quite,
Players of certain faiths would never even dream of it

It's absolutely nonsense

The asthmatic/inhaler thing? Why? Irish rugby team did it and they would be pretty high profile in pretty high profile tournaments etc.

Always assumed it was pretty common, I certainly don't think it's a stretch to say most teams or individuals at top level of sport can and do seek to gain advantage by pushing the boundaries to the limits and sometimes beyond.

The rewards are very tempting.

DM_7

gimli2112 wrote: »

Exercised-induced asthma is a narrowing of the airways in the lungs triggered by strenuous exercise. It causes shortness of breath, wheezing, coughing and other symptoms during or after exercise. The preferred term for this condition is exercise-induced bronchoconstriction.

I never knew this was a thing. It would make sense athletes have a higher frequency of athsma than the gen pop. Also I could be asthmetic and who would know? These guys are tested for things like this and presumably there's varying degrees of it.

I do understand however that if Liverpool's stunning successes could be attributed to some nefarious reasons it would make it easier for people

I don't think Liverpool are an outlier in terms of performance. I would say all major sports teams have people who look at ways to max out performance within the rules (marginal gaines).

As I understand it, in the general population, exercise induced asthma is really just a way to say exercise has set off the symptoms of asthma.

So it remains peculiar to have such a high percentage of elite sports people need access to relievers. Sports people have to go through a greater process to access preventers.

Salbutomol (reliever) is not a banned substance. Inhalation of Salbutomol in normal use of an inhaler is not of much benefit to anyone who does not need it.

Ingestion of larger doses on the other hand does have an anabolic benefit if enough is consumed. As it is not a banned substance it would have an appeal to people who wish to get some advantage of higher doses and asthma is a way to explain why it was there. Urine samples can show levels but not method of how a person has taken the substance (inhalation, pill, injection). That is why the suspicion is out there and why it is tested for by WADA.

Chris Froome was in bother for having an amount above what could be expected to be inhaled normally, he was able to prove suitable use though. The allowable level is well below what someone would get in hospital if they had an attack, they would need a TUE in that instance. The WADA level (equivalent of about 8 puffs a day) is set based on what manufacturers say would indicate overreliance in the drug and not correct treatment of the condition.


https://www.cyclist.co.uk/news/4053/salbutamol-can-be-performance-enhancing-says-wada

https://www.cyclist.co.uk/news/3902/what-is-salbutamol

It is not clear why so many need inhalers but it appears questionable.

yourdeadwright

I think the most important thing here is the article its self is absolutely rubbish
Not something that come across very credible at all

yourdeadwright

StringerBell wrote: »

The asthmatic/inhaler thing? Why? Irish rugby team did it and they would be pretty high profile in pretty high profile tournaments etc.

Always assumed it was pretty common, I certainly don't think it's a stretch to say most teams or individuals at top level of sport can and do seek to gain advantage by pushing the boundaries to the limits and sometimes beyond.

The rewards are very tempting.

Is there any proof of Liverpool players using inhalers? Or is it just lie in the sky?

osarusan

I am recalling an article I read about athsma in sport around the time of the Chris Froome scandal. Just from memory, there was one olympics where neutral doctors had to diagnose asthma among the athetes for medication to be allowed, and the prevalence was a certain percentage of athletes, something like 4%, which was similar to the population in general.

For the following olympics, national olympic association doctors diagnosed their own athletes, and the rate went up to something like 12% of athletes qualifying for the medical exemption.

Gretas Gonna Get Ya!

Human growth hormones wouldn't be much use for someone like Messi.

You need to be human first... the little man is very clearly an extra-terrestrial. :P

Of course there's doping in football.

I'd be surprised if any major team is doing it systematically though.

Wonder have Leicester FC seen the article.

It's not the best piece of journalism.

Just as Leicester City went hell for leather under the watchful eye of Mapei graduate Andrea Azzalin, Azzalin followed Claudio Ranieri around like a sweet scent and was last at AS Roma before Ranieri rocked up in Sampdoria.

Azzalin learned from the best in cycling and like fellow Mapei mafia found his knowledge transferable to football. This knowledge of how to push players above and beyond using caffeine and other substances was ridden out on a rail from Chelsea but found a welcome home in Juventus.

We can remember the mad stories of Jamie Vardy souping up on Red Bull and port, greeted with giggles from the lapdog English sports media. All haha, until his heart packs in. Jamie, they repeated without bull**** filter, shuns gym work “so as not to bulk up and hinder his explosive pace,” Yes. This was puked out into the public sphere with no comment. Remember, too, how Leicester City players were visiting Dr. Mark Bonar.

DM_7

6 wrote: »

Of course there's doping in football.

I'd be surprised if any major team is doing it systematically though.

I too doubt any team would give players banned or illegal levels of any drug that would find them well over the limits.

I assume a system comment means to the degree seen in other sports in the past?

I think how a systematic approach would work now has moved onto a lower level of eeking out benefits. Teams would have systems that stay within what is allowed or can be found.

Such systems can raise great questions of ethics as the medical people are focussed on performance and not medical care. But they would not be illegal.

StringerBell

yourdeadwright wrote: »

Is there any proof of Liverpool players using inhalers? Or is it just lie in the sky?

No idea, didn't read the article. You did I assume as you've commented on its content so you tell me what proof does the writer offer?

My own point is a broader one, not focused on one club.

duffman13

If this is happening at one club, its happening at the majority, its not solo sports where its your secret. If its systematic as seems suggested, then its rife in all clubs. No way players, opposition, even staff don't leak something.

Cycling was brought down due to a whistle blower, given the number of failed players/coaches in the game there would bound to be something leaked. I 100% believe there is doping in football however I cannot see it being systematic or club orchestrated IMO

Richard Hillman

I think it's more to do with cliques within dressing rooms and people don't like to betray their mates. That's not to say that the club manager doesn't help facilitate it with appointing a doctor that they know and trust.

When Barcelona were doped to the nines, they had a generation of players who had grown up together, came through the system and had an emotional attachment to club. Even if you have a player that is in dispute to the club (like right now), if you outed the clique your own achievements would be pissed all over and you'll suddenly be short of mates to play golf with when you retire.

GLaDOS

Richard Hillman wrote: »

I think it's more to do with cliques within dressing rooms and people don't like to betray their mates. That's not to say that the club manager doesn't help facilitate it with appointing a doctor that they know and trust.

When Barcelona were doped to the nines, they had a generation of players who had grown up together, came through the system and had an emotional attachment to club. Even if you have a player that is in dispute to the club (like right now), if you outed the clique your own achievements would be pissed all over and you'll suddenly be short of mates to play golf with when you retire.

If anyone was spill the beans I'd wonder about Ibra. He was there between the 2 CL wins, no real attachment to the club, hates Pep by all accounts and is certainly outspoken enough.

All speculation though.

Man with broke phone

Some of the fittest teams in the world dont look as fit all of a sudden, or as confident.

I wonder is there panic over all this testing. It will be intersting to see if this becomes a mad year for sport where the underdog starts to win by miles and the sportsmen who were written off in the past but suddenly became inhumane will go on the wain again.

As far as I recall Lance Armstrong was a mid pack rider who a top team might discard unil he started doping.

Shanotheslayer

Not as fit? Might be something to do with the lack of break and the longer season?

~Rebel~

Man with broke phone wrote: »

Some of the fittest teams in the world dont look as fit all of a sudden, or as confident.

I wonder is there panic over all this testing. It will be intersting to see if this becomes a mad year for sport where the underdog starts to win by miles and the sportsmen who were written off in the past but suddenly became inhumane will go on the wain again.

As far as I recall Lance Armstrong was a mid pack rider who a top team might discard unil he started doping.

Do you have any figures to back that up at all?

Liverpool looked pretty fit last weekend when they were haring down on Arsenal.

I think you might be conflating some weird score results with actual changes in levels of running. Good or bad results do not necessarily equate to better or worse fitness, just better or worse use of that running. Villa scored 7 tonight with only around 31% possession. Just as Liverpools hardest running season was 3 years ago, but didn’t yield results as well as the slightly more conservative style used since.

Man with broke phone

~Rebel~ wrote: »

Do you have any figures to back that up at all?

Liverpool looked pretty fit last weekend when they were haring down on Arsenal.

I think you might be conflating some weird score results with actual changes in levels of running. Good or bad results do not necessarily equate to better or worse fitness, just better or worse use of that running. Villa scored 7 tonight with only around 31% possession. Just as Liverpools hardest running season was 3 years ago, but didn’t yield results as well as the slightly more conservative style used since.

Its not just miles ran, and not just based on Liverpool, tiredness affects injuries and mental focus as well as keeping good posture and technique when making a pass, strength, height you can jump,shot power, loads of things really.

If you think doping is just about running fast you are about 40 years behind the science.

If you think

beggars_bush

Asthma sufferers galore in professional football

olestoepoke

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlWXdR_S1ww&t=1370s

This fella told us 4 months ago that Liverpool would eventually crash.

olestoepoke

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlWXdR_S1ww&t=1370s

This Irish lad called it months ago

Harry Palmr

What the **** is that? I'm not watching a 3 minute advert

Whatsisname

olestoepoke wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlWXdR_S1ww&t=1370s

This fella told us 4 months ago that Liverpool would eventually crash.

Howson and Stretford Paddock in general put out some great stuff. Mad how United Stand is so popular in comparison.

jebidiah

olestoepoke wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlWXdR_S1ww&t=1370s

This Irish lad called it months ago

So a professional sports club has allowed ALL of their players to cycle off their PED's at the same time? Seems incredibly stupid if they were that stupid to take such a risk in the first place.

olestoepoke

Whatsisname wrote: »

Howson and Stretford Paddock in general put out some great stuff. Mad how United Stand is so popular in comparison.

Howson is a good watch yeah. The fella he has on Alan Moore is in no way 'anti- Liverpool' and says in the show that he was happy to see them finally win the league. He makes some great points, also important to note he wrote an article 4 or 5 months ago predicting that Liverpool wouldn't retain the title and would eventually crash and burn. Probably sounded like nonsense back then but looking pretty accurate today.

Harry Palmr

jebidiah wrote: »

So a professional sports club has allowed ALL of their players to cycle off their PED's at the same time? Seems incredibly stupid if they were that stupid to take such a risk in the first place.

I knew it was that **** - it's from that crappy website run by a couple of Man City heads. One or both of whom used to post here.

Xavi6 was it?

~Rebel~

jebidiah wrote: »

So a professional sports club has allowed ALL of their players to cycle off their PED's at the same time? Seems incredibly stupid if they were that stupid to take such a risk in the first place.

Was a total nonsense argument then, and still just as nonsensical now. Particularly when you look at the league stats - Liverpool still outwork most teams in the league, and the drop in pressing and running has been league-wide. That side of things is clearly an issue with the weird structure of the league this year (packed schedule, no pre-season, international breaks bumped up from 2 to 3 games etc etc), rather than anything any individual club is doing.

Of course it doesn't help their argument that the 'journo' writing it could barely string two cogent sentences together.

yourdeadwright

olestoepoke wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlWXdR_S1ww&t=1370s

This Irish lad called it months ago

Do you really think a professional club could put its player on peds and not get caught ?

How many players have fallings out and leave clubs and would be willing to spill the beans ,Even fringe and youth players in the first team,

Then you have devout Muslims who wouldn't touch alcohol refuse to break fast in Ramadan but people believe they would take PEDS

yourdeadwright

olestoepoke wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlWXdR_S1ww&t=1370s

This fella told us 4 months ago that Liverpool would eventually crash.

Do you really think a professional club could put its player on peds and not get caught ? What happens when they go away on International duty ? wouldn't they be found out ,

How many players have fallings out and leave clubs and would be willing to spill the beans ,Even fringe and youth players in the first team,

Then you have devout Muslims who wouldn't touch alcohol refuse to break fast in Ramadan but people believe they would take PEDS

Liverpool fans get called crazy for blaming Var but the clam the whole clubs is on PEDS is not Crazy

mightyreds

olestoepoke wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlWXdR_S1ww&t=1370s

This Irish lad called it months ago

united must have got their supply chain back the last few weeks

Liamalone

http://backpagefootball.com/why-liverpool-wont-win-the-premier-league-this-season/126313/

Did Klopp buy the best midfielder in the world ever to slow things down as he knew the red bull was off the menu?

olestoepoke

yourdeadwright wrote: »

Do you really think a professional club could put its player on peds and not get caught ?

How many players have fallings out and leave clubs and would be willing to spill the beans ,Even fringe and youth players in the first team,

Then you have devout Muslims who wouldn't touch alcohol refuse to break fast in Ramadan but people believe they would take PEDS

You didn't bother to watch it.

olestoepoke

Harry Palmr wrote: »

I knew it was that **** - it's from that crappy website run by a couple of Man City heads. One or both of whom used to post here.

Xavi6 was it?

Man City heads? Are you sure?

olestoepoke

yourdeadwright wrote: »

Do you really think a professional club could put its player on peds and not get caught ? What happens when they go away on International duty ? wouldn't they be found out ,

How many players have fallings out and leave clubs and would be willing to spill the beans ,Even fringe and youth players in the first team,

Then you have devout Muslims who wouldn't touch alcohol refuse to break fast in Ramadan but people believe they would take PEDS

Liverpool fans get called crazy for blaming Var but the clam the whole clubs is on PEDS is not Crazy

You obviously didn't watch the video from your observation, erm, no one claimed the whole club is on PEDs. Why would you jump in with an opinion without watching it?

Agent Coulson

Harry Palmr wrote: »

I knew it was that **** - it's from that crappy website run by a couple of Man City heads. One or both of whom used to post here.

Xavi6 was it?

Lol did someone post a link to Xavi6's site using that Russian dude as proof about players using peds now that's scraping the bottom of the barrel there.

yourdeadwright

olestoepoke wrote: »

You obviously didn't watch the video from your observation, erm, no one claimed the whole club is on PEDs. Why would you jump in with an opinion without watching it?

I didn't watch it but its Alan Moore ,
Does he talk again about Liverpool having to cycle off there extra dosing of caffeine that will give there players hear attacks

He claims 22 of the Liverpool squad are asthmatic , You understand what he's trying to do there right ? If not he is trying to say there doing what Bradley Wiggins was excused off ,

The fella is probably a flat earther and believe the election was rigged ,

yourdeadwright

olestoepoke wrote: »

Man City heads? Are you sure?

Out of interest have you read many Alan Moore articles

SteM

yourdeadwright wrote: »

I didn't watch it but its Alan Moore ,
Does he talk again about Liverpool having to cycle off there extra dosing of caffeine that will give there players hear attacks

He claims 22 of the Liverpool squad are asthmatic ,

The fella is probably a flat earther and believe the election was rigged ,

Why are you trying to have the same conversation with the same person on 2 separate threads?

The White Wolf

Harry Palmr wrote: »

I knew it was that **** - it's from that crappy website run by a couple of Man City heads. One or both of whom used to post here.

Xavi6 was it?

Lol that dude......I wrote for one of his sh1tkicker websites back in the day. Glad to see he's still aiming high with his content.