Doping in football

Chucky the tree

764dak wrote: »

Spain had 3 players from the Euro 2012 team. Juan Mata, Jordi Alba and Javi Martinez. However, Spain was considered favourites and many experts and fans considered that team to be far superior to the other teams (besides Brazil).

So it's not interesting at all then really.

SantryRed

Chucky the tree wrote: »

So it's not interesting at all then really.

http://int.soccerway.com/teams/spain/spain-under-21/matches/

Spain's u21 results since 2007.

EDIT: Including winning the Euro U21 Championship in 2011.

atilladehun

I do think there's bound to be loads of doping. Everyone is trying to get an advantage but I am doubtful that football is that much of a secret society.

The amount of dumb footballers, others that don't make it and feel hard done by. The opportunity to earn money from media, make a name for yourself or something like that is too obvious. Finally there's got to be lots of journalists that would love to be breaking that story and trying to dig up as much as possible.

I just can't see that many people being able to keep a secret.

Richard Hillman

Something that Barcelona have an advantage with is that they have so many players that came through the youth system and are Barcelona to the core. If they did have a programme, they wouldnt be worried about the likes of Xavi, Iniesta, Puyol, Busquets, Pedro, Pique, Fabregas etc going rogue and ratting the club out. The likes of Messi could be included too as he's been there so long. Even their recent managers Guardiola and Vilanova are staunch Barcelona men and im sure their next manager will be another insider. If anybody could get away with this, it would be Barcelona. Maybe the gringos would be excluded for security reasons. They may have to earn their way into a potential circle of trust.

Athletic Bilbao would be another club.

Chucky the tree

SantryRed wrote: »

http://int.soccerway.com/teams/spain/spain-under-21/matches/

Spain's u21 results since 2007.

EDIT: Including winning the Euro U21 Championship in 2011.

Olympics is U23 isn't it?

764dak

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Olympics is U23 isn't it?

Euro U-21 is actually U-23. (The qualifying starts at U-21 and the final tournament ends two years later at U-23)

losthorizon

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

Hard to think that will rock the world but yes every sport has its cheats GAA is no different.

But the GAA have at least admitted there maybe a problem and looking more into it with more tests etc.

Same cant be said for football and especially rugby.

FIFA was very late to sign up to the anti- doping code. It was left up to individual federations with Italy and Spain being the most rigorous testers and the english hardly testing at all. Not sure of the situation now since FIFA has fallen in line with best practice. Read a piece in World Soccer about it a few years ago but have thrown away the magazine.

TBH betting is way more of a problem. Its taken German police to unravel the problem. They know who the major organiser of this syndicate is, they even have his phone number yet the singapore authorities wont arrest him.

The match at the olympic games between the USA and canada was a joke and mirrored that premiership game of years ago.

Bodhisopha

SantryRed wrote: »

Yeah but you see the game slow down. You don't see that as much in the Barca games, especially when it is still a close game or if they're going for a goal. They are constantly playing and never seem to get tired at any point during the season.

It's also interesting how poor Spain were at the Olympics in London.

What? You see this more with Barca than with perhaps any other team in world football right now, simply because they usually have a game wrapped up within 70 mins. I think United are a more remarkable team when it comes to chasing a goal in the dying moments of a game, and there is nothing suspicious about that.

If you don't see them get tired during the season, you're not watching.

Big Pussy Bonpensiero

Some of the stuff in this thread is getting far too ridiculous, even from the anti-Barca brigade, from whom it's expected.

SantryRed

THFC wrote: »

Some of the stuff in this thread is getting far too ridiculous, even from the anti-Barca brigade, from whom it's expected.

I'm anything but anti Barca. I absolutely love watching them play. But I think it is likely something is going on.

Big Pussy Bonpensiero

SantryRed wrote: »

I'm anything but anti Barca. I absolutely love watching them play. But I think it is likely something is going on.

And do you think, if Barca are doping, they are alone? If not, who else? And why not them mention them even once?
And if you think Barca are alone, well then, that pretty much sums up this thread so far.

Mr_A

Not much new in this article by Luke John: http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/luke-john/dopin-under-the-needle-but-above-suspicion_b_2662165.html?utm_hp_ref=tw

It does illustrate that football has a lot of history on the doping front and that FIFA and FAs in general are in a laughable state of denial about the issue. Testing is uncommon and ineffective- there is no real disincentive for a player to engage in blood doping.

jameshayes

Ben foster tweeted today that after they beat liverpool last night the FA sent in the drug testers haha https://twitter.com/BenFoster

The_Kew_Tour

Off the ball have Brian Carney (Former Wigan Warriors player) on tonight about drugs problem in rugby. Not sure what time but sure you can catch it later once they put it up on repeats.

Mr_A

Should have added earlier, Luke John https://twitter.com/Giggs_Boson is well worth a follow on this topic.

Among the interesting questions raised:

Italian footballers are 24 times more likely to suffer from deadly nerve disease ALS than the general population. Why?

More on this here: http://brain.oxfordjournals.org/content/128/3/472.long

Doping or something in fertilizers seems the most likely explanation.

The_Kew_Tour

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

Off the ball have Brian Carney (Former Wigan Warriors player) on tonight about drugs problem in rugby. Not sure what time but sure you can catch it later once they put it up on repeats.

He also played league in Australia and a little union for Munster, would love if he were to speak honestly about it.

764dak

Did anyone notice how Spain completely outran Portugal in ET in the Euros even though the Portuguese had two extra days rest?

eagle eye

764dak wrote: »

Did anyone notice how Spain completely outran Portugal in ET in the Euros even though the Portuguese had two extra days rest?

You didn't watch that game right. Portugal ran and ran, Spain just moved the ball about!

Seaneh

jameshayes wrote: »

Ben foster tweeted today that after they beat liverpool last night the FA sent in the drug testers haha https://twitter.com/BenFoster

The fact that he was so surprised it happened that he felt the need to tweet about proves that it's extremely rare in football.

Also, most modern doping techniques are used during recovery and training, the best time of year to test for them would be during pre-season and long gaps between games. Stuff like EPO is only detectable for 3 days but gives you a befefit for up to 18 days, so you could take it the day after a match and by the time the next match comes around its out of your system and you still have the benefit. And seeing as it's the likes of EPO and blood doping methods that would be most useful to footballers, those are the types of things that need to me looked at most.

For a multi-billion euro industry, top level football in europe is probably one of the least tested sports, relative to income, on the planet.


As for why people keep mentioning Barca, it's because since the trials in spain started they have been linked to doctors involved umpteen times.

If it smells like a rat and walks like a rat and looks like a rat, it's probably a rat.

The_Kew_Tour

Even reading few papers this morning the problem of drugs came up in all 3 I glanced through.

Its only going to get more open and I think the pressure and questioning is going to get more aggressive.

The Brian Carney interview was little disappointing although I do understand why he wont tell authorities who these drug cheats are cause if they pass tests he is going to look a fool.

losthorizon

Interesting article here on the doping issue here and in the UK.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/premier-league-in-doping-firing-line-222643.html

The_Kew_Tour

http://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2013/0215/367945-fifa-make-ant-doping-pledge-ahead-of-world-cup/

FIFA has committed to carrying out blood tests for banned drugs at next year's World Cup and biological profiling for all players at the tournament which can indicate doping.

The commitment comes after a meeting between the World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA) president John Fahey and FIFA president Sepp Blatter on Thursday.

Before the meeting, Fahey had said that football was not testing enough for the blood-boosting agent EPO, which requires blood tests. Three out of every four players tested at World Cup qualifiers will not have EPO tests.

Fahey said earlier this week: "I simply say this about football - they are not testing enough for EPO. They can do more and we encourage them to do more."

He also called on the domestic leagues to do more to add to FIFA's testing.
After the meeting with Blatter, Fahey praised the commitment made, especially to biological profiles which can indicate hormone use and blood doping.

Fahey said: "We are very interested in continuing the work on biological profiles. WADA is very satisfied with the commitment of FIFA on the biological profiles, which will be run not only at the FIFA World Cup in 2014 but already at the FIFA Confederations Cup in June this year."

FIFA's medical committee chairman Michel D'Hooghe added: "FIFA was the first international organisation for team sport to start with longitudinal profiles.
"I simply say this about football - they are not testing enough for EPO" - John Fahey

We have been testing this at the FIFA Club World Cup in 2011 and 2012, we will continue at the FIFA Confederations Cup 2013 with blood testing unannounced at training camps and games.

"And it's our commitment to have all players participating at the 2014 FIFA World Cup having biological profiles."

iregk

Seaneh wrote: »

As for why people keep mentioning Barca, it's because since the trials in spain started they have been linked to doctors involved umpteen times.

It's not just them though it's Spain in general. Has anyone ever asked why all of a sudden they seem to be the european power house for sport? A well known Spanish tennis player who is allegedly on the Fuentes list wins a shed load of trophies. Contodor greatest cyclist of his generation, Barcelona dominate European football and of course the Spanish national squad.

It's quite interesting isn't is that the Spanish government has the full list and files of Fuentes and are refusing to reveal them. They specifically said that nobody only cyclists who we all knew about anyway were allowed to be discussed in the trial. Are they hiding that much?

losthorizon

iregk wrote: »

It's not just them though it's Spain in general. Has anyone ever asked why all of a sudden they seem to be the european power house for sport?

European power House for sport

11 Best european country at the olympics - thats terrible considering their population. 21st Overall. Britain was first overall interesting considering wengers comments and interesting when you see the muscle devlopment that occured on some players that left here when the LOI was full time.


All of a sudden? Go look at a history book with regard to the European Cup/Cl. It might open your eyes.

Bodhisopha

iregk wrote: »

It's not just them though it's Spain in general. Has anyone ever asked why all of a sudden they seem to be the european power house for sport? A well known Spanish tennis player who is allegedly on the Fuentes list wins a shed load of trophies. Contodor greatest cyclist of his generation, Barcelona dominate European football and of course the Spanish national squad.

It's quite interesting isn't is that the Spanish government has the full list and files of Fuentes and are refusing to reveal them. They specifically said that nobody only cyclists who we all knew about anyway were allowed to be discussed in the trial. Are they hiding that much?

Well, either Nadal is pulling a massive bluff or he's clean, or getting his **** from someone else.

http://wwos.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=8606896

When it comes to tennis, Djokovic and his gluten free diet is far more suspicious.

The_Kew_Tour

Bodhisopha wrote: »

Well, either Nadal is pulling a massive bluff or he's clean, or getting his **** from someone else.

http://wwos.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=8606896

When it comes to tennis, Djokovic and his gluten free diet is far more suspicious.

You see it only takes a rumour to spread like brushfire and people will believe it.

I agree with you on first point cause if he is on the list and says he is not he will look utter stupid.

Mr_A

A general piece on doping in sport that points to organised crime involvement in doping: http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2013/feb/15/drugs-wada-organised-crime?CMP=twt_gu

Mr_A

Channel 4 report on Fuentes / Operation Puerto trial: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDiQXpKG-oM

Manzano claims he saw 1 Spanish and 2 Brazilian internationals attending Fuentes.

Paully D

Interesting read here - ''50 years of evidence'':

http://www.4dfoot.com/2013/02/09/doping-in-football-fifty-years-of-evidence/

Who wrote that article?

Alot of potential lawsuits there I'd imagine!

NIMAN

Only a fool would think there is little or no doping in a multi-million industry like football.

It may take years to come out, but it will.

The_Kew_Tour

NIMAN wrote: »

Only a fool would think there is little or no doping in a multi-million industry like football.

It may take years to come out, but it will.

The truth always comes out eventually.

I just hope it's not as bad as the rumours say, but it could get very messy in the coming years.

SantryRed

Still think that the Spanish team are leading at this doping.

Giruilla

SantryRed wrote: »

Still think that the Spanish team are leading at this doping.

I'd strongly share that opinion.

iregk

The big problem faced with this though is that football fans don't want to know. As a cyclist and cycling fan I've understandably taken a battering from mates over the rampant use in our sport usually followed by "how can you follow a sport where they are all juicing". Soon as I say what if it was done in football they don't want to know.

The difference being cycling fans wanted a clean sport, we wanted to out the cheats and it has happened and still happening. Football fans however when faced with the possibility of even one of their big name players being done they just don't want to know. As a football fan I'd love to see the entire house of cards come down. Ban any player or team who has used substances but tell me how many United or Liverpool fans on here would back that if it means half your team was gone for a few years, any trophies won in the given period were rescinded and you got a ban on future competition? Not one fan would go for that. Least of all would UEFA or FIFA if it means the cash cows of United, Barca, Bayern etc... not allowed to compete.

Saw what we like about the teams and players but until I see fans in grounds holding up drugs out or drug cheat signs as cycling fans did for years then we as football fans are all part of the problem and must accept that responsibility.

Giruilla

iregk wrote: »

The big problem faced with this though is that football fans don't want to know. As a cyclist and cycling fan I've understandably taken a battering from mates over the rampant use in our sport usually followed by "how can you follow a sport where they are all juicing". Soon as I say what if it was done in football they don't want to know.

The difference being cycling fans wanted a clean sport, we wanted to out the cheats and it has happened and still happening. Football fans however when faced with the possibility of even one of their big name players being done they just don't want to know. As a football fan I'd love to see the entire house of cards come down. Ban any player or team who has used substances but tell me how many United or Liverpool fans on here would back that if it means half your team was gone for a few years, any trophies won in the given period were rescinded and you got a ban on future competition? Not one fan would go for that. Least of all would UEFA or FIFA if it means the cash cows of United, Barca, Bayern etc... not allowed to compete.

Saw what we like about the teams and players but until I see fans in grounds holding up drugs out or drug cheat signs as cycling fans did for years then we as football fans are all part of the problem and must accept that responsibility.

Spanish judge in Fuentes case has repeatedly refused requests to question Fuentes on the footballers he has worked with. This is crazy.. then again, maybe she's a barca or real supporter?

iregk

Giruilla wrote: »

Spanish judge in Fuentes case has repeatedly refused requests to question Fuentes on the footballers he has worked with. This is crazy.. then again, maybe she's a barca or real supporter?

To be fair the trial is not a trial on football, barcelona or spain. The trial is about medical practices and health thereafter. In other words the judge is keeping it on topic.

Now what's more concerning is the Spanish government have the complete Fuentes list and they refuse to release it.

Giruilla

iregk wrote: »

To be fair the trial is not a trial on football, barcelona or spain. The trial is about medical practices and health thereafter. In other words the judge is keeping it on topic.

Now what's more concerning is the Spanish government have the complete Fuentes list and they refuse to release it.

If its on medical practices and health thereafter why include cycling and not football? Also whats the harm to come from the questioning?

I'd agree thats far more concerning.

iregk

Giruilla wrote: »

If its on medical practices and health thereafter why include cycling and not football? Also whats the harm to come from the questioning?

I'd agree thats far more concerning.

The reason it's mentioning cycling is because the reason for this case came out of the initial operation puerto, where the health practices were raised during that case. So effectively this case is relating to the original OP case and so everything that was discussed during that is open for discussion. Now granted tennis players and other sports persons were mentioned in OP but only cyclist were charged so they are only allowed to discuss those charged in this case.

It's all a bit flakey to be honest but I guess the harm is this. Say during questioning Fuentes says something like this: "Christano Ronaldo reacted badly to this unlike Tyler Hamilton (cyclist) who didn't."

Queue a legal and PR s**tstorm, Nike pulling the plug, other advertisers getting off the titanic straight away before he has even faced any sort of trial, Ronaldo counter suing everyone in sight. It's easier to leave it all out and let that come out in the wash at a later date.

Giruilla

iregk wrote: »

The reason it's mentioning cycling is because the reason for this case came out of the initial operation puerto, where the health practices were raised during that case. So effectively this case is relating to the original OP case and so everything that was discussed during that is open for discussion. Now granted tennis players and other sports persons were mentioned in OP but only cyclist were charged so they are only allowed to discuss those charged in this case.

It's all a bit flakey to be honest but I guess the harm is this. Say during questioning Fuentes says something like this: "Christano Ronaldo reacted badly to this unlike Tyler Hamilton (cyclist) who didn't."

Queue a legal and PR s**tstorm, Nike pulling the plug, other advertisers getting off the titanic straight away before he has even faced any sort of trial, Ronaldo counter suing everyone in sight. It's easier to leave it all out and let that come out in the wash at a later date.

Yeah thats a fair point. But how does that involve the judge herself? I can see it being a mess for anyone implicated but don't see what the judge has to lose by pursuing that line of questioning. I find it a bizarre lack of curiosity. Especially when its a case on health risks and footballers have died/nearly died on the pitch or had seizures rumored to be connected to adverse reactions to doping. Its a missed opportunity.

I hope your right though that it will come out at a later date.. but when the most powerful clubs/ representatives in football have so much to lose in it coming out, I can't help but feel any opportunity to expose it should be taken when it arises.

The_Kew_Tour

iregk wrote: »

. Ban any player or team who has used substances but tell me how many United or Liverpool fans on here would back that if it means half your team was gone for a few years, any trophies won in the given period were rescinded and you got a ban on future competition? .

I have stated before that if United were found to be cheating I would never support the club again.

Now it's different if it's just one player. Say United Player was caught with PED I would just be annoyed with player and want ban. If it were club instructing it I be disgusted and just walk away.

It's pity cycling came to this. Fair play to the lines of Walsh and Kimmage for fighting on when it looked like for years that Lance would get away with it.

Blatter

Xavi back again in less than two weeks after a hamstring tear. They must have some doctors.

Blatter

Blatter wrote: »

Xavi back again in less than two weeks after a hamstring tear. They must have some doctors.

It was said at the time he'd be out for 15 days


http://www.euronews.com/sport/1812258-xavi-out-for-15-days-with-hamstring-injury/

Blatter

rarnes1 wrote: »

It was said at the time he'd be out for 15 days


http://www.euronews.com/sport/1812258-xavi-out-for-15-days-with-hamstring-injury/

I know, it doesn't change the fact that it seems an exceptional recovery time.

Blatter

Blatter wrote: »

I know, it doesn't change the fact that it seems an exceptional recovery time.

Hamstring tears range in severity though. It could have just been a slight tear.

SantryRed

SantryRed wrote: »

Still think that the Spanish team are leading at this doping.

Why as a matter of interest?

Just curious.

For all we know the premiership could be leading the doping, or the Germans.

If it is the Spanish, Torres must have been excluded with all the injuries he was picking up when at Liverpool.

Also, isn't it defamation to throw out accusations on an internet site?

SantryRed

rarnes1 wrote: »

Why as a matter of interest?

Just curious.

For all we know the premiership could be leading the doping, or the Germans.

If it is the Spanish, Torres must have been excluded with all the injuries he was picking up when at Liverpool.

Also, isn't it defamation to throw out accusations on an internet site?

Well if it's defamation could the mods please remove it as a poor student I don't think I could afford it :pac:

How Spain never, ever seem to tire in the past 3 tournaments, they just keep churning it up at the same pace and eventually over run teams.

An example of this would be how they completely blitzed the Italians in the final of Euro 2012 after an entertaining draw between them in the opening game.

Then there is the refusal of the Spanish government to release Fuentes other clients, where he has said that there are football players involved, this absolutely screams out to me that they are covering something up.

And finally, the Spanish u21s were unbelievable in the Euro u21s and hadn't lost a game in a long, long time. They went to the Olympics, were there are much more stringent doping regulations, and dived out without even scoring a goal.

Blatter

rarnes1 wrote: »

Hamstring tears range in severity though. It could have just been a slight tear.

He's had trouble with his hamstring before, and I don't remember him being ever out of action that long. Must have been all 'slight'.

I don't know if it's just me, but I've always felt the Spanish players seem to recover much more quickly than others.

I'd love to see an extensive list of Barca/Real injuries over the last few years and compare recovery times to other big clubs in Europe.

SantryRed

SantryRed wrote: »

Well if it's defamation could the mods please remove it as a poor student I don't think I could afford it :pac:

How Spain never, ever seem to tire in the past 3 tournaments, they just keep churning it up at the same pace and eventually over run teams.

An example of this would be how they completely blitzed the Italians in the final of Euro 2012 after an entertaining draw between them in the opening game.

Then there is the refusal of the Spanish government to release Fuentes other clients, where he has said that there are football players involved, this absolutely screams out to me that they are covering something up.

And finally, the Spanish u21s were unbelievable in the Euro u21s and hadn't lost a game in a long, long time. They went to the Olympics, were there are much more stringent doping regulations, and dived out without even scoring a goal.

I'm not saying you're right or wrong but it's all hear say really.

Could the same be said for teams that dominate their leagues year in year out?

Blatter

rarnes1 wrote: »

Could the same be said for teams that dominate their leagues year in year out?

If there is strong evidence of doping cover ups in that country (and relating to football), are displaying suspiciously high levels of stamina and have very quick recovery times relative to other clubs of similar stature, I think the question should be asked and investigations should be made.