Doping in football

Neil3030

If all professional football players aren't at least taking clen, I'd be amazed. Most likely stacking it with some tren and low doses of test aswell; though these latter two would have far less advantage for footballers than the more explosive/strength based sport like rugby or track & field.

Giruilla

“What I could never quite understand is how their players were able to play that number of games. They fielded almost the same side every time.”

Ferguson on Barcelona.

Mitch Connor

Giruilla wrote: »

“What I could never quite understand is how their players were able to play that number of games. They fielded almost the same side every time.”

Ferguson on Barcelona.

Looking forward to reading the context of this.

From just that line I can almost hear the 'cough cough', but as far as I know it is one line in a chapter praising Barca and stating they were simply much better than United.

richierichballs

Giruilla wrote: »

“What I could never quite understand is how their players were able to play that number of games. They fielded almost the same side every time.”

Ferguson on Barcelona.

Fergie also said he never rated Gerrard.

GavRedKing

richierichballs wrote: »

Fergie also said he never rated Gerrard.

Which is neither here nor there in the context of this thread really.

Mitch Connor

GavRedKing wrote: »

Which is neither here nor there in the context of this thread really.

Nor is it true.

Theresalwaysone

Youd have to think, at the very least, this goes to a decent level of seniority in Fifa, Uefa and national associations if not to the top.

Obviously its purely speculation as there hasnt really been a player caught out properly. Rios case was very dodgy but thats about it.

richierichballs

GavRedKing wrote: »

Which is neither here nor there in the context of this thread really.

Well it is really, the barcelona insinuation is being quoted from his book in which Fergie has made some absolutely outrageous statements, the gerrard one being an example.

Taken with a pinch of salt.

Mitch Connor

At the very least players are openly taking stimulants to get themselves up for games - not illegal, but possibly just the tip of the iceberg as it were.

I remember the England players complaining when the game vs Poland was called off as they had taken a load of caffine pills and now wouldn't have the game to run the energy off, so their sleep was going to be fecked that night (with the game taking place the next day). Again, it isn't illegal, but possibly points towards the legal end of the culture.

GTR63

Giruilla wrote: »

“What I could never quite understand is how their players were able to play that number of games. They fielded almost the same side every time.”

Ferguson on Barcelona.

Plenty of foreign teams got ran off the pitch by English teams in the last decade plus. Bayern ran that Barca team into the ground 6 months ago.

richierichballs

GTR63 wrote: »

Plenty of foreign teams got ran off the pitch by English teams in the last decade plus. Bayern ran that Barca team into the ground 6 months ago.

His statement is pure crap, like most of stuff that has come out of his mouth since he retired.

Barcelona rotate that squad game in-game out,
The only players you are guaranteed to see on the team sheet most weeks are Messi and Valdes.

People where harping on this summer about Cesc not starting enough for Barcelona, but the truth is he started more than Xavi last year.

Martino is also rotating Pedro/Sanchez and giving Alex Song more game time.

Mitch Connor

richierichballs wrote: »

Well it is really, the barcelona insinuation is being quoted from his book in which Fergie has made some absolutely outrageous statements, the gerrard one being an example.

Taken with a pinch of salt.

He also says he tried to sign him - so CLEARLY he rated him.

He may not have thought he was the world class player others rate him as, but he clearly rated him. He may simply feel that Gerrard, like Beckham, is a player who didn't reach his full potential - to be a 'top top player'. Maybe he just considers him (them) as a 'Top Player'.

Anyway, it IS completely irrelevant to the thread.

RayCon

Giruilla wrote: »

“What I could never quite understand is how their players were able to play that number of games. They fielded almost the same side every time.”

Ferguson on Barcelona.

Did I miss a meeting where it was decided that Ferguson is the absolute authority on everything ?

Giruilla

Theresalwaysone wrote: »

Youd have to think, at the very least, this goes to a decent level of seniority in Fifa, Uefa and national associations if not to the top.

They bury their heads in the sand as do most football supporters. They currently do not test effectively or enough for doping in football so yes a decent level of seniority is to blame.

No governing body wants to put investigations in place to prove that they have in effect been doing an incompetent job and expose cheating. The same problem exists in tennis, golf, rugby and previously cycling. Not even to mention the joke that is athletics.. Jamaicas sprint team won 8 out of 12 sprint medals in London 2012 while their national doping agency out of competition tested them a total of "1 person once" in the 6 months leading to that result.
Cheats won't be exposed by organisations who influence/run doping regulations whilst also having a vested interest in the sport.. which is what Fifa and Uefa are.

Mitch Connor

RayCon wrote: »

Did I miss a meeting where it was decided that Ferguson is the absolute authority on everything ?

Wow - how bitter you are.

A thread about doping.
A thread containing questions about Barcelona and possible doping.
A comment from Fergie that may OR MAY NOT be implying doping.

And you have an issue with the Fergie comment.

GavRedKing

If people want to talk about Fergies book and quote from it take it elsewhere, this is about doping in the game.

richierichballs

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Wow - how bitter you are.

A thread about doping.
A thread containing questions about Barcelona and possible doping.
A comment from Fergie that may OR MAY NOT be implying doping.

And you have an issue with the Fergie comment.

I think people in general are just sick of some of the ridiculous quotes from that book.

death1234567

Giruilla wrote: »

They bury their heads in the sand as do most football supporters. They currently do not test effectively or enough for doping in football so yes a decent level of seniority is to blame.

No governing body wants to put investigations in place to prove that they have in effect been doing an incompetent job and expose cheating. The same problem exists in tennis, golf, rugby and previously cycling. Not even to mention the joke that is athletics.. Jamaicas sprint team won 8 out of 12 sprint medals in London 2012 while their national doping agency out of competition tested them a total of "1 person once" in the 6 months leading to that result.
Cheats won't be exposed by organisations who influence/run doping regulations whilst also having a vested interest in the sport.. which is what Fifa and Uefa are.

This post says it all. It makes me laugh when people wonder why I watch cycling "Sure aren't they all on drugs". So are all of the premier league/rugby players you watch every week, so are lots of the golfers, in tennis its practcially mandatory to take drugs, same for athletics. Drugs are in every sport every where. Some sports like cycling try to face up to it and "try" to tackle it, most ignore it. AFAIK FIFA aren't signed up to WADA. Says it all.

Seaneh

Lads, if you think Barca aren't, or weren't doping, you're out of your tiny minds.

The club (as well as a few others) has come up umpteen times in the Operation Puerto case in Spain as being strongly linked to Dr. Eufemiano Fuentes.
The RFEF, UEFA and FIFA have been putting massive pressure on the Spanish government to make sure that the evidence linked to Barcelona, Sociead, Valencia and a few other clubs is not used in the trial because it would prove that Doping is massive in Football.

Angel Heredia, Aka Angel Hernandez, the man who supplied drugs to Olympic sprinters like Marion Jones and Tim Montgomery, and most recently on the staff of Usain Bolt, has said more than once that he worked in Europe with everyone from Cyclists to Sprinters to Rugby players and a lot of footballers. He reckons that EVERY major sport in the world has a massive doping problem at the highest level, especially the most profitable sports, like Basketball, Soccer, NFL, etc.

Chucky the tree

Seaneh wrote: »

Lads, if you think Barca aren't, or weren't doping, you're out of your tiny minds.

The club (as well as a few others) has come up umpteen times in the Operation Puerto case in Spain as being strongly linked to Dr. Eufemiano Fuentes.
The RFEF, UEFA and FIFA have been putting massive pressure on the Spanish government to make sure that the evidence linked to Barcelona, Sociead, Valencia and a few other clubs is not used in the trial because it would prove that Doping is massive in Football.

Angel Heredia, Aka Angel Hernandez, the man who supplied drugs to Olympic sprinters like Marion Jones and Tim Montgomery, and most recently on the staff of Usain Bolt, has said more than once that he worked in Europe with everyone from Cyclists to Sprinters to Rugby players and a lot of footballers. He reckons that EVERY major sport in the world has a massive doping problem at the highest level, especially the most profitable sports, like Basketball, Soccer, NFL, etc.

When was he on the staff of Usian bolt? A link to something confirming it from reputable source would be ideal.

Seaneh

Chucky the tree wrote: »

When was he on the staff of Usian bolt? A link to something confirming it that is reputable would be ideal.

http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2012/08/12/bernstein-usain-bolt-is-probably-doping-and-you-know-it/

http://deadspin.com/5857439/what-do-usain-bolt-and-juan-manuel-marquez-have-in-common-they-train-with-the-same-admitted-steroids-dealer

http://sportige.com/usain-bolt-juan-manuel-marquez-no-surprise-if-they-are-doping-too-2013-07/

GavRedKing

Only thing I can find about Bolt and Angel Hernandez is from last year just after the Olympics.

Edit : Juse seen Seaneh's response.

GavRedKing

Was Yohan Blake working with the same guy?

Didnt he test positive a few years ago at the Juniors?

Seaneh

GavRedKing wrote: »

Was Yohan Blake working with the same guy?

Didnt he test positive a few years ago at the Juniors?

Honestly, no idea.

Heredia kinda disappeared after the whole BALCO thing and then popped up a few years ago to do an interview with a German paper, disappeared again and since then has changed his name from Heredia to Hernandez and works with a few boxers and by all accounts was working with Bolt for about a year in the run up to the Olympics as a "trainer".

If he was working with Bolt, he wasn't a "trainer", the man has admitted himself that he is a chemist, pure and simple, he develops combinations of PED's to beat doping tests.

Chucky the tree

Seaneh wrote: »

http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2012/08/12/bernstein-usain-bolt-is-probably-doping-and-you-know-it/

http://deadspin.com/5857439/what-do-usain-bolt-and-juan-manuel-marquez-have-in-common-they-train-with-the-same-admitted-steroids-dealer

http://sportige.com/usain-bolt-juan-manuel-marquez-no-surprise-if-they-are-doping-too-2013-07/

The deadspin article mentions how he has been working with Usian bolt send me off to a page that has been taken down. The CBS seems to be a blog where some guy repeats "reports" he's heard and the last link and the same with the last article. No quotes, pictures, or anything to back these claims people have made?

Seaneh

Chucky the tree wrote: »

The deadspin article mentions how he has been working with Usian bolt send me off to a page that has been taken down. The CBS seems to be a blog where some guy repeats "reports" he's heard and the last link and the same with the last article. No quotes, pictures, or anything to back these claims people have made?

A year ago when I googled it I could pull up dozens of articles from various websites, now I'm too lazy to trawl through stuff from message baords to find them so I posted the first 3 articles I could find.

Deadspin is a reputable source for sports news, as is Sportige.

Giruilla

Chucky the tree wrote: »

The deadspin article mentions how he has been working with Usian bolt send me off to a page that has been taken down. The CBS seems to be a blog where some guy repeats "reports" he's heard and the last link and the same with the last article. No quotes, pictures, or anything to back these claims people have made?

I looked for a reputable report that Bolt worked with Hernandez before and also couldn't find it. Seems to be hear say.
Even still, I'd be convinced he's a juicer purely on the fact that he's 0.4s faster than anyone else who subsequently hasn't been done for doping.

Chucky the tree

Seaneh wrote: »

A year ago when I googled it I could pull up dozens of articles from various websites, now I'm too lazy to trawl through stuff from message baords to find them so I posted the first 3 articles I could find.

Deadspin is a reputable source for sports news, as is Sportige.

But neither show any proof. Deadspin even goes to the length of not making the claim themselves and actually links to the report(now gone which doesn make the cliam). Sportige basically tells us that they have read the Deadspin/some other article.

Giruilla wrote: »

I looked for a reputable report that Bolt worked with Hernandez before and also couldn't find it. Seems to be hear say.
Even still, I'd be convinced he's a juicer purely on the fact that he's 0.4s faster than anyone else who subsequently hasn't been done for doping.

I agree with all of that. Heard the Bolt/Hernandez rumour before and never found anything apart from people basically repeating what they have read about it and nothing more. He's definitely a jucier alright. Everyone is at the top level of a lot of sports.

Giruilla

Seaneh wrote: »

Lads, if you think Barca aren't, or weren't doping, you're out of your tiny minds.

I'd confidently add one recent champions league winning team from England, another big team from Spain and two big teams from Germany to that list..

Seaneh

Giruilla wrote: »

I'd confidently add one recent champions league winning team from England, another big team from Spain and two big teams from Germany to that list..

Ah, in fairness, you could probably safely that individuals or whole teams involved in just about every major soccer tournament final in the last 20 years have been on the juice. The financial incentive to cheat in soccer is huge, it's idiocy to think people aren't doing it and haven't been doing it, especially when FIFA won't ever police it properly.

Seaneh

Chucky the tree wrote: »

But neither show any proof. Deadspin even goes to the length of not making the claim themselves and actually links to the report(now gone which doesn make the cliam). Sportige basically tells us that they have read the Deadspin/some other article.





I agree with all of that. Heard the Bolt/Hernandez rumour before and never found anything apart from people basically repeating what they have read about it and nothing more. He's definitely a jucier alright. Everyone is at the top level of a lot of sports.

From what I remember, the original source was Alex Ariza, who was basically Heredia's "protégée" and still very close to him personally.

Giruilla

Messi looks to be out for 8 weeks with a hamstring tear. He's gone from playing almost every game of the season setting unprecedented scoring records for 4 years straight under Pep Guardiola, to being dogged by muscle injuries.. since Guardiola's departure.

The reason seems to be openly debated between Barcelona fans that the reason for Messi's run of injuries is the departure of Barca fitness coach Lorenzo Buenaventura, who joined Guardiola at Bayern.

This Barcelona fan blog has a few interesting lines
thttp://www.barcablaugranes.com/2013/11/11/5088934/barcelona-wins-betis-messi-injured-again-mind-of-xoel

since Lorenzo Buenaventura, former team fitness coach/trainer under Pep, left El Blaugrana in the summer of 2012 with Guardiola, Messi has suffered muscular injuries in his legs. I can buy this argument. Perhaps Buenaventura trained, worked with, and made a better workout and dietary regiment for Leo than the one Messi has been receiving since Buenaventura's departure, thus Messi hasn't had the same run of good fitness health as before. I can buy this argument.

The current team trainers need to go in and do a better job of preparing, examining, and continue to study Messi's injury and recovery. I know that's not the answer you may have been looking for, but there's not much else that can be done. Perhaps Leo just needs to replicate what Buenaventura did when he was at Barça in order to maintain physical health.

GavRedKing

So as Ronaldo is playing nearly every game of the season can we asssume that Real Madrid have a similar dodgy setup?

Giggsy11

GavRedKing wrote: »

So as Ronaldo is playing nearly every game of the season can we asssume that Real Madrid have a similar dodgy setup?

Messi was injury prone pre Pep and then was super fit during Pep era. Now with Pep gone Messi has suffered few injuries.

Not saying it is something to do with doping, just that Ronaldo always had superior fitness record.

Giruilla

GavRedKing wrote: »

So as Ronaldo is playing nearly every game of the season can we asssume that Real Madrid have a similar dodgy setup?

Based solely on my opinion? An emphatic yes.

bucketybuck

GavRedKing wrote: »

So as Ronaldo is playing nearly every game of the season can we asssume that Real Madrid have a similar dodgy setup?

Only if you assume United also had a dodgy setup, he rarely missed a game for them either, even as a kid and in the "growing" stage.

richierichballs

GavRedKing wrote: »

So as Ronaldo is playing nearly every game of the season can we asssume that Real Madrid have a similar dodgy setup?

Yes as do United.

Richard Hillman

GavRedKing wrote: »

So as Ronaldo is playing nearly every game of the season can we asssume that Real Madrid have a similar dodgy setup?

I would have always assumed that considering Barca were questionable that RM would be too until the Spanish Rail Crash a few months ago. Ronaldo was out in Compostella that next morning to donate blood. There is no way that Ronaldo or the Real Madrid doctors would donate blood to the victims if they thought it could be harmful. This was during Pre-Season too, the most beneficial time to be using alternative methods.

I think it could be more of a Spanish thing and done in private with trusted members of the footballing establishment. The Barcelona guys all came through the academy together and are Barcelona through and through. There is no way they will screw the club over and rat them out. Whereas the likes of Yaya Toure, Etoo and the other foreign players were never going to be there for life so it would be risky to let them in on it.

Real Madrid dont really have that cradle to the grave culture in the club with the Galacticos. So again, maybe groups of players bring it upon themselves to act.

GavRedKing

That still doesnt offer anything other then speculation as to why Messi got injured TBH.

Messi "only" played 50 games last year for Barca and 32 in La Liga, the least amount of games hes played since 08, those it point to anything malicious, I'd say not really.

Until some evidence is provided its all specualtion and hearsay anyway but I do reckon doping is happening at the top level of World and European football.

The_Kew_Tour

Couple of my Spanish friends have been saying lately that there may be developments only around the corner about who Fuentes was helping out.

Truth to some degree at the very least will come out eventually.

Just a matter of when and how really serious it is.

Been following/reading/you name it about doping in football for about 6-7 years now waiting like a child pressing F5 and wondering when the truth will come out.

GavRedKing

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

Couple of my Spanish friends have been saying lately that there may be developments only around the corner about who Fuentes was helping out.

Truth to some degree at the very least will come out eventually.

Just a matter of when and how really serious it is.

Been following/reading/you name it about doping in football for about 6-7 years now waiting like a child pressing F5 and wondering when the truth will come out.

If and when it does come out, alot of clubs and players will be shamed I'd reckon, not just Spain/Barcelona IMO.

The_Kew_Tour

GavRedKing wrote: »

If and when it does come out, alot of clubs and players will be shamed I'd reckon, not just Spain/Barcelona IMO.

Oh yes absolutely.

It might not even be the country with biggest problem.

The_Kew_Tour

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

Oh yes absolutely.

It might not even be the country with biggest problem.

True.

Everyone presumes Spain will be the worst offenders. Could easily be England, Germany. Italian football isn't unknown to have controversy. I'd imagine it was and is widespread

The_Kew_Tour

rarnes1 wrote: »

True.

Everyone presumes Spain will be the worst offenders. Could easily be England, Germany. Italian football isn't unknown to have controversy. I'd imagine it was and is widespread

Yep.

It could be Man United, Bayern, Milan who knows.

I'll be honest, I be surprised if no Man United player has ever taking PED for example.

I stressed this before, but if its a club involved then it will be 100 times worse than if 1-2 players who are doing it under the noses of the management.

If these players that went to Fuentes and say the club had no idea or never wanted them to go then to me club should be cleared and only the player should get life ban.

From what I have read/heard that aint the case, but we will have to see when this develops how serious it might be.

Timmyctc

I could be making this up but didn't Wenger say something in the past about players signed from the mainland almost always initially having a higher red blood cell count or something?


EDIT:

"We have had some players come to us at Arsenal from other clubs abroad and their red blood cell count has been abnormally high," Wenger told the Independent. "That kind of thing makes you wonder.
"There are clubs who dope their players without the players knowing."

If Doping was prevalent in England I imagine top managers would stay quiet about the subject. That quote always led me to believe England would be outside the doping ring of fire :P

brevity

Plausible deniability...

Timmyctc

brevity wrote: »

Plausible deniability...

Yeah well he has no need to bring it up given that there has never been even a tiny sniff of an investigation into it. If anything it would be drawing attention to an issue that, back in 04, when he made the comments wouldn't have been as researched as it is today.

bucketybuck

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

I'll be honest, I be surprised if no Man United player has ever taking PED for example.

While there might be a player or two caught, I would actually be very surprised if it turned out doping was ever an institutional thing at United for one very scientific reason, have you seen their bloody injury lists over the last few years!!!

Considering the amount of injuries if that squad is doping then they sure are bad at it.

I am pie

bucketybuck wrote: »

While there might be a player or two caught, I would actually be very surprised if it turned out doping was ever an institutional thing at United for one very scientific reason, have you seen their bloody injury lists over the last few years!!!

Considering the amount of injuries if that squad is doping then they sure are bad at it.

Doping would have nothing to do with preventing injuries, in fact, you could argue that allowing the human body to surpass it's inherent performance levels could be increase susceptibility to injury.

bucketybuck

I am pie wrote: »

Doping would have nothing to do with preventing injuries, in fact, you could argue that allowing the human body to surpass it's inherent performance levels could be increase susceptibility to injury.

That statement does not match a lot of the discussion in this thread, for instance regarding Messi, his previous lack of injuries and the reasons behind that lack.