Advice please on this as a first camper....

Benbecul97

....its a 1998 Fiat Ducato Swift Sundance 520 1.9TD....it's identical to this one but has 100k miles. It's a private sale.

http://www.practicalmotorhome.com/forsale/used-motorhomes/kent-motorhome-centre/swift-sundance-520/010

Any advice/feedback/thoughts of this as a first camper for 2 adults/2 kids would be great. Thanks in advance.

paddyp

Benbecul97 wrote: »

....its a 1998 Fiat Ducato Swift Sundance 520 1.9TD....it's identical to this one but has 100k miles. It's a private sale.

http://www.practicalmotorhome.com/forsale/used-motorhomes/kent-motorhome-centre/swift-sundance-520/010

Any advice/feedback/thoughts of this as a first camper for 2 adults/2 kids would be great. Thanks in advance.

This one? http://www.donedeal.ie/for-sale/campers/4017558

My main reservation is the 1.9td engine is a bit on the small/gutless side for lugging that weight around going to be slow going accellerating and on hills to put it in perspective our 1998 1.9 passat estate has 30 more bhp and 55Nm more torque. Might not be an issue for your if you're a relaxed individual that doesn't mind chugging along.

What ages are the kids?

Benbecul97

Thanks for the reply....it's identical to that one too but it's a private sale.

When you say "chugging along" what speed do you think its capable of / comfortable at when the 4 passengers and 4 bikes are on board? Bear in mind this camper is 5.2m long - not much longer than your passat estate - granted wider and taller. Its a 4 berth so the engine is not pulling the bigger vans with 6+ berths.

The kids are nearly 6 and 9.

Aidan_M_M

Benbecul97 wrote: »

Thanks for the reply....it's identical to that one too but it's a private sale.

When you say "chugging along" what speed do you think its capable of / comfortable at when the 4 passengers and 4 bikes are on board? Bear in mind this camper is 5.2m long - not much longer than your passat estate - granted wider and taller. Its a 4 berth so the engine is not pulling the bigger vans with 6+ berths.

The kids are nearly 6 and 9.

Can the kids sleep in the same bed? Cos trust me you won't enjoy the upstairs bed. We sold a few of them, alright yokes but not very high quality construction. Done a few leaks in them. The 1.9 is grand on the flat , but will smell a hill coming... The one you're looking at, is it DOE'd ? Gas tested? Damp tested? All appliances and charging working? Also be very careful of chassis tot in the front corners of those age Ducatos.

niloc1951

Unlike cars the road tax on campers is a single fixed rate irrespective of engine size. A small engine can use as much fuel as a larger one if worked hard so a 2.3 or a 2.8 could have about the same running costs and make for more relaxed driving.

Another thing to consider with four passengers, four bikes plus all the other stuff four people 'must' bring (food, clothes, camping equipment etc.) with them is does the 'van have sufficient payload.
It could end up quite heavy and apart from the 1.9 being under pressure at times, if overloaded you would be open to getting up to 3 penalty points and a €300 fine.

Benbecul97

Aidan_M_M wrote: »

Can the kids sleep in the same bed? Cos trust me you won't enjoy the upstairs bed. We sold a few of them, alright yokes but not very high quality construction. Done a few leaks in them. The 1.9 is grand on the flat , but will smell a hill coming... The one you're looking at, is it DOE'd ? Gas tested? Damp tested? All appliances and charging working? Also be very careful of chassis tot in the front corners of those age Ducatos.

Thanks for the reply.

Yeah, kids can sleep in the double over the cab. DOE'd until the summer. And it passed a habitation check 18 months ago.

Where did ye find leaks in the ones ye had?
Are 1.9td vans in general very laboured on hills - or just this one?
What do you mean by the chassis tot in the front corners of those age Ducatos?
Assuming its in good order would you think its a good first camper?

Benbecul97

niloc1951 wrote: »

Unlike cars the road tax on campers is a single fixed rate irrespective of engine size. A small engine can use as much fuel as a larger one if worked hard so a 2.3 or a 2.8 could have about the same running costs and make for more relaxed driving.

Another thing to consider with four passengers, four bikes plus all the other stuff four people 'must' bring (food, clothes, camping equipment etc.) with them is does the 'van have sufficient payload.
It could end up quite heavy and apart from the 1.9 being under pressure at times, if overloaded you would be open to getting up to 3 penalty points and a €300 fine.

Thanks for the reply.

The Payload on this van is 545kg and the MTPLM is 2800kg - is this sufficient for us? To be honest I'm not fully up to speed on this aspect.

Does this basically mean that if checked and the van exceeded 2800kg I could incur these penalty points/fine?

Aidan_M_M

Benbecul97 wrote: »

Thanks for the reply.

Yeah, kids can sleep in the double over the cab. DOE'd until the summer. And it passed a habitation check 18 months ago.

Where did ye find leaks in the ones ye had?
Are 1.9td vans in general very laboured on hills - or just this one?
What do you mean by the chassis tot in the front corners of those age Ducatos?
Assuming its in good order would you think its a good first camper?

Sorry, typo, chassis ROT. Front lower sections of the chassis legs snd frint crossmember. Rotten brake pipes too, chances are it'll want 2 rear brake cylinders.
18 months is a long time for a habitation, a lot can change in a year! And some hab checks done around the country leave a bit to be desired.... Some DOE centres let awful stuff pass too.
I've done leaks in windows, corner moulds, and skylights.
1.9td is a good little engine, but in an overcab MH it does get fairly pulled back. What's your budget?

Benbecul97

Aidan_M_M wrote: »

Sorry, typo, chassis ROT. Front lower sections of the chassis legs snd frint crossmember. Rotten brake pipes too, chances are it'll want 2 rear brake cylinders.
18 months is a long time for a habitation, a lot can change in a year! And some hab checks done around the country leave a bit to be desired.... Some DOE centres let awful stuff pass too.
I've done leaks in windows, corner moulds, and skylights.
1.9td is a good little engine, but in an overcab MH it does get fairly pulled back. What's your budget?

Thanks for the reply.

Ok. Sure, I know 18 months is a long time since the habitation test and alot can happen in that time. But the van has been checked and is in great condition and has been stored in a garage. As the habitation test is not compulsory, I doubt that the majority of campervan owers have this test performed anually.

Regarding the engine why would a manufacturer use a 1.9td engine to pull a vehicle of 2800kg if it didn't think it was capable? Sure, it could be to cut costs, but that could be counter-productive?

Will pm you seperately.

niloc1951

Benbecul97 wrote: »

Thanks for the reply.

The Payload on this van is 545kg and the MTPLM is 2800kg - is this sufficient for us? To be honest I'm not fully up to speed on this aspect.

Does this basically mean that if checked and the van exceeded 2800kg I could incur these penalty points/fine?

The two of us use about 800kg of payload, that includes ourselves, full water, fuel, gas, two bikes, cloths, food, bedding, pots/pans, cutlery, camping gear, etc. etc. etc. (there's a lot of etc. )

The only reliable way to determine how you are fixed is to take the vehicle to a weigh bridge fully loaded (including people) and ready to go on hols. You can also weight it as it is and estimate the weight of stuff you put in afterwards and don't forget the people who will be travelling.

There are many people who aren't bothered about the whole issue but if sh1t hits fan overloading could compromise insurance as well as attracting prosecution under road traffic regulations.
And, while our Guards currently don't have a reputation for pulling campers to check weights the chances of getting checked are much higher in the UK and Europe

Benbecul97

niloc1951 wrote: »

The two of us use about 800kg of payload, that includes ourselves, full water, fuel, gas, two bikes, cloths, food, bedding, pots/pans, cutlery, camping gear, etc. etc. etc. (there's a lot of etc. )

The only reliable way to determine how you are fixed is to take the vehicle to a weigh bridge fully loaded (including people) and ready to go on hols. You can also weight it as it is and estimate the weight of stuff you put in afterwards and don't forget the people who will be travelling.

There are many people who aren't bothered about the whole issue but if sh1t hits fan overloading could compromise insurance as well as attracting prosecution under road traffic regulations.
And, while our Guards currently don't have a reputation for pulling campers to check weights the chances of getting checked are much higher in the UK and Europe

Thanks for the reply.

Useful information there on payload.

There would have to be alot of etc etc etc to reach 800kg! Why carry a full water tank? Unless you are going into the wilderness for days on end!

Any idea where you could get your fully-laden campervan weighed? I know probably at a DOE centre, but if wont be fully-laden then or with all its passengers.

niloc1951

Benbecul97 wrote: »

Thanks for the reply.

Useful information there on payload.

There would have to be alot of etc etc etc to reach 800kg! Why carry a full water tank? Unless you are going into the wilderness for days on end!

Any idea where you could get your fully-laden campervan weighed? I know probably at a DOE centre, but if wont be fully-laden then or with all its passengers.

A lot of people get very exercised about carrying around the weight of 80/90 litres of water (80/90 kg) but in the context of a 'van weighting over 3.5t it will make little difference. I like to have a full tank when touring using Aires or wild camping as you never know the availability or quality in the next place you stop.

As regards getting the 'van weighted, my local farm supplies merchant will do mine for €10. Any merchant dealing in bulk goods (grain, coal, building materials, etc.) should have a weighbridge.

For my tenner I get two weights, one with both axles on the weighbridge and the second with just the rear axle.

There are many 'vans within the GVW but because a lot of stuff is at the back (bikes etc.) the rear axle itself can be overweight and this alone can bring on the problems mentioned in my earlier post apart from over-stressing tyres with an insufficient load rating.

paddyp

Benbecul97 wrote: »

Bear in mind this camper is 5.2m long - not much longer than your passat estate - granted wider and taller. Its a 4 berth
so the engine is not pulling the bigger vans with 6+ berths.

Its 2 and a quater ton with noone and nothing in it and massive windage from the overcab and you're going to be trying to accellerate with and 80hp 180Nm engine you'll have nothing in reserve for overtaking grannys and tractors and climbing hills.

Add two slim adults and two average kids, 40l of water (very conservative - fresh, waste, toilet), full gas cylinder, suitcase worth of clobber each for the adults and one for the kids , 4 bikes. Thats another 300+kg.

Thats ignoring food, cooking gear, bbq, camping chairs oustide table, awning, tent, levelling chocks shovel and the endless clobber that goes with camping.

niloc1951 wrote: »

Unlike cars the road tax on campers is a single fixed rate irrespective of engine size. A small engine can use as much fuel as a larger one if worked hard so a 2.3 or a 2.8 could have about the same running costs and make for more relaxed driving.

Definitely the 1.9 will have the worst mpg of the lot. 1.9td ~ 22-25 mpg, 2.5td ~ 25-28, 2.8idtd ~ 28-30, 2.8jtd ~ 28-32.

MPG difference between 24 and 32 is a small cost in comparision to purchase, ferries, campsites etc. at current prices the difference is - €1600 over 100k miles.

Benbecul97

niloc1951 wrote: »

A lot of people get very exercised about carrying around the weight of 80/90 litres of water (80/90 kg) but in the context of a 'van weighting over 3.5t it will make little difference. I like to have a full tank when touring using Aires or wild camping as you never know the availability or quality in the next place you stop.

As regards getting the 'van weighted, my local farm supplies merchant will do mine for €10. Any merchant dealing in bulk goods (grain, coal, building materials, etc.) should have a weighbridge.

For my tenner I get two weights, one with both axles on the weighbridge and the second with just the rear axle.

There are many 'vans within the GVW but because a lot of stuff is at the back (bikes etc.) the rear axle itself can be overweight and this alone can bring on the problems mentioned in my earlier post apart from over-stressing tyres with an insufficient load rating.

Thanks for the reply.

Useful information / tips there on getting a campervan weighed.

Benbecul97

paddyp wrote: »

Its 2 and a quater ton with noone and nothing in it and massive windage from the overcab and you're going to be trying to accellerate with and 80hp 180Nm engine you'll have nothing in reserve for overtaking grannys and tractors and climbing hills.

Add two slim adults and two average kids, 40l of water (very conservative - fresh, waste, toilet), full gas cylinder, suitcase worth of clobber each for the adults and one for the kids , 4 bikes. Thats another 300+kg.

Thats ignoring food, cooking gear, bbq, camping chairs oustide table, awning, tent, levelling chocks shovel and the endless clobber that goes with camping.



Definitely the 1.9 will have the worst mpg of the lot. 1.9td ~ 22-25 mpg, 2.5td ~ 25-28, 2.8idtd ~ 28-30, 2.8jtd ~ 28-32.

MPG difference between 24 and 32 is a small cost in comparision to purchase, ferries, campsites etc. at current prices the difference is - €1600 over 100k miles.

Thanks for the reply.

No doubt the payload adds up, but like I mentioned above on the payload on this van is 545kg and the MTPLM is 2800kg so should be ok. And I won't be carrying the half of what you're suggesting - I'm looking at a campervan so that I don't have to use a tent etc! And thankfully I hope to use it on Irish hills and not Alpe d'Huez.

Like I mentioned above why would a manufacturer use a 1.9td engine to pull a vehicle of 2800kg if it didn't think it was capable? Sure, it could be to cut costs, but that could be counter-productive?

Aidan_M_M

It's only one of the range, the bottom of the barrel , think of a 1.3 Ford Capri....

paddyp

Benbecul97 wrote: »

Thanks for the reply.

No doubt the payload adds up, but like I mentioned above on the payload on this van is 545kg and the MTPLM is 2800kg so should be ok. And I won't be carrying the half of what you're suggesting - I'm looking at a campervan so that I don't have to use a tent etc! And thankfully I hope to use it on Irish hills and not Alpe d'Huez.

Like I mentioned above why would a manufacturer use a 1.9td engine to pull a vehicle of 2800kg if it didn't think it was capable? Sure, it could be to cut costs, but that could be counter-productive?

I wasn't saying you'd be overweight, although its a disctinct possibility. I'm saying that you'll be pulling around 2.5 ton minimum with an 80hp engine. This is basically the 1.9 engine from the ritmo/tipo/tempra with a camshaft ground for low end torque.

Its not just hills - of which ireland has plenty, mostly in the places we like to visit, healy pass, conor pass, allihies, the burren, lough hyne, coast road to cliffs of moher, to mention a tiny few, even the hill to my house is 1 in 7 and 1 in 5 in places.

Take every winding road in Ireland you have to slow down into every corner and accelerate out of the corner - very slowly in the case of this van. I for one wouldn't fancy being stuck behind you in the wicklow hills or the winding roads of west cork, west kerry or clare. We were travelling behind our friend who has the 2.5 straight diesel - which is similar power and toque - this summer around schull goleen baltimore. I had to phone him to tell him to get off the road an let the hundred or so cars behind him pass.

You asked for advice then you're splitting hairs about what you will and won't be carrying here are some facts about the majority of camper vans: http://www.motorhomeplanet.co.uk/archives/1756

And believe me with two kids in a van that size a pop up tent you can chuck them out into from time to time is a good idea.

Benbecul97

paddyp wrote: »

I wasn't saying you'd be overweight, although its a disctinct possibility. I'm saying that you'll be pulling around 2.5 ton minimum with an 80hp engine. This is basically the 1.9 engine from the ritmo/tipo/tempra with a camshaft ground for low end torque.

Its not just hills - of which ireland has plenty, mostly in the places we like to visit, healy pass, conor pass, allihies, the burren, lough hyne, coast road to cliffs of moher, to mention a tiny few, even the hill to my house is 1 in 7 and 1 in 5 in places.

Take every winding road in Ireland you have to slow down into every corner and accelerate out of the corner - very slowly in the case of this van. I for one wouldn't fancy being stuck behind you in the wicklow hills or the winding roads of west cork, west kerry or clare. We were travelling behind our friend who has the 2.5 straight diesel - which is similar power and toque - this summer around schull goleen baltimore. I had to phone him to tell him to get off the road an let the hundred or so cars behind him pass.

You asked for advice then you're splitting hairs about what you will and won't be carrying here are some facts about the majority of camper vans: http://www.motorhomeplanet.co.uk/archives/1756

And believe me with two kids in a van that size a pop up tent you can chuck them out into from time to time is a good idea.

Thanks for the reply.

I understand and appreciate your advice and your willingness to share it.

Splitting hairs? I'm simply pointing out that I won't be taking alot of the items you mention. Each to their own and all that.

I know you haven't seen this particular van, but I presume you would not think its a good first camper for us?

Aidan_M_M

Every first timer I've ever seen reckons they won't be carrying that much stuff, and they keep believing that right up until they've to empty everything when they trade up! Lol